'Blast after N Korea train crash'

[MaineDem]

Two fuel trains are reported to have collided in North Korea and triggered a large explosion, according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.
The blast was reported at Ryongchong station, 50km north of the capital Pyongyang, Yonhap said.

The incident reportedly happened nine hours after North Korean leader Kim Jong-il passed through the station on his way home from a visit to Beijing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3649655.stm

[demdave]

1. Funny, I didn't read about this in North Korean news.

I wonder how they could have missed it.

[Snow]

85. You won't, either.

They always keep disasters quiet.

[Rationality]

141. The didn't miss it. Stalinist states tend to snuff the news

They called a news blackout over this event. All the reports you will hear will come from South Korea and Chinese intelligence.

[Just Me]

2. Yikes!

:nuke:

:scared:

[maddezmom]

3. gas and liguefied petroleum....hmmmm

~snip~
Chinese sources said cargo trains carrying gasoline and liquefied petroleum gas collided at Ryonchon station 50 km (30 miles) from Sinuiju toward Pyongyang and caused a large explosion that resulted in the injury of many people," Yonhap said.

Sinuiju is a city on the North Korea-Chinese border.

"We have not yet received official information on the accident. We are trying to confirm the report," a Unification Ministry spokesman said in Seoul.

~snip~
more: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4907763

[Just Me]

133. Here's a pic and link (from a locked thread)

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/23/1082616273448.html

-snip-

"It is true there was a large explosion in North Korea today," an official told AFP, requesting anonymity. "We are still trying to confirm other details."

A defence ministry official told Yonhap they had yet to confirm "the cause of the incident, the kind of explosion and how many died".

The entire area "was turned into ruins comparable to the aftermath of a massive bombing," Yonhap said, quoting witnesses.

-more-

<On edit - why is this thread SOOOO SSLLOOWWWW? Makes me wish the moderator would not have locked the newer thread>

[MaineDem]

136. BBC News said that pic was a simulation (nt)

[Just Me]

139. The so-called "paranoiacs" are looking a great deal more like healthy,...

,...skeptics to me.

Given the extremely obvious reality that information is being squandered and squelched, all around,...my suspicions are growing.

There are those who are willing to incite that NK dictator into retaliation mode. Is there any question about that? He is in a "one strike and you are out" position,...and there are those shoving "bring it on" in his face. All he has to do is retaliate in any measure,...and the "players" will have their excuse to do total devastation.

:cry:

Sometimes, I hate the workings of this world. I really do.

[hang a left]

4. Is it just me?

Or is there something funny (not ha ha funny) about this story?

[maddezmom]

5. putting on my hat for a minute

http://news.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4904591
something seems strange to me, as well.:tinfoilhat:

[demdave]

6. I can't make your link work, so will you please explain what is so strange

[maddezmom]

7. key words popping up today in warnings..that's all

half its oil and much of its liquefied natural gas pass

[demdave]

10. Sorry, I still am not following you. Could you please explain with more

detail. What warnings? Pass? I don't understand your fragmented sentences. Please forgive me, I might not be up to speed yet. Thanks.

[maddezmom]

15. can't explain it..it's just a feeling

FBI's Mueller: China Faces Al Qaeda Threat, Activities

BEIJING (Reuters) - Some people in China share the same ideology as al Qaeda, FBI Director Robert Mueller said on Wednesday, as he warned the group that the United States was on high alert and watching every move by any would-be terrorist.
China, too, was at risk from terror attacks, he said.

"Just because you have not seen substantial terrorist attacks in China does not mean there could not be in the future or in other countries in Asia," Mueller told reporters.

He did not elaborate.

Asked if al Qaeda was active in China, which has linked Muslim separatists in the restive Xinjiang region to Osama bin Laden's network, Mueller said some individuals in China shared the same ideology as al Qaeda.

~snip~
More: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4890923

the more I read this am, the more I believe the US knew something was going to happen, but warned late. Perhaps on purpose? I don't know. Sorry, if you're not following me. :(

[Dead_Parrot]

25. Interesting bit on the BBC article...

...they have a form for more information/comments on that article - they don't normally do that unless they are unsure of all the facts...

Yeah, I've got that fishy feeling, too...

[Just Me]

28. Yeah, I have an icky feeling, too.

But, it's just a feeling.

Who can avoid being concerned in this climate and having some understanding of PNAC and so forth?

[TahitiNut]

29. I doubt the "Muslim separatists" (Uighurs) are al-Qaeda.

The Uighurs are a Turkic people numbering about 10 million and their plight has been long-ignored in western media. I tend to liken their situation to Tibet's -- and I'd hardly characterize them as 'separatists' any more than I'd characterize Tibet in that way. Hell, Taiwan is a much more legitimate target for such terminology, and Mueller would be drawn and quartered for using such terms for Taiwan.

This 'terrorist' designation is Busholini pandering to ChinaInc, an Armitage's complicity in the 'ethnic cleansing' undertaken by the PRC since 1947. It's disgusting.

See http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/DI05Ad03.html
See also http://www.uygur.org/wunn03/2003_12_22a.htm

[Zero Gravitas]

75. could be

could be just an awful accident, but given Kim's train had just gone through that station it might be a failed assination attempt.

[Lizz612]

92. My worry

is that it was just a terrible accident and that Kim will say it was a failed assignation attempt and use that as a justification for... whatever he wants.

(we talked about Stalin's purges in history today, so this might just be me connecting things.)

[Superfly]

95. That is scary...

I hope it doesn't go to that.

[Lizz612]

98. I know

but having history this semester has got me seeing patterns. The same story but a new stage with new actors. I keep hoping for a new ending to go with it....

[Superfly]

8. North Korea at night...

Quite a difference, eh?

[mike1963]

48. Took me a minute to figure out that "island" just NW of Kyushu

;-)

[Just Me]

135. I'm still trying to figure how "Superfly" accessed that "globalsecurity",

,...photo since I am unable to get past the blocks at http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk et al from his picture "properties" id.

How'd ya' do it, Superfly?

:bounce:

[Ediacara]

84. well it's just cause people only live in Pyongyang

:-) they didn't need lights elsewhere.....

[Superfly]

9. Dupe

[demdave]

11. Could you give a link to the dupe?

[Superfly]

13. Oops...I'm sorry, it's a duplicate response on my part

I hit "post message" twice when I posted that picture.

[Just Me]

68. The "properties" on the pic show the link as

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/dprk-dmsp-dark

[Superfly]

12. MSNBC is reporting 3,000 casualties

go to http://www.msnbc.com

[Just Me]

14. Good gawd!!!

That must have been one hellacious explosion.

How awful!!!

[maddezmom]

16. so is Rueters

Up to 3,000 Casualties in N.Korea Rail Blast-Report

[ignatius]

19. Odd, explosion 9 hours after Kim Jong II's train passed through`

the station where trains collided.

[smb]

67. Conspiracy? Probably Not, But....

I still think the logical explanation is that their luck finally ran out after years of fixing what passes for their railway system with spit and piano wire.

If there is something more to it, I'd guess that some North Korean version of von Stauffenberg finally decided that he had to try and save what was left of his country.

[Romulus Quirinus]

73. Hmm...

I wonder what a new "revolutionary" government would do? There are four "big-picture" options.

1) Keep status quo
2) Try to revive country within the "Juche socialist" system
3) Attack the South while everything is confused
4) Sue for peace with the South and move immediately toward reunification

#4 would be the smart move, but who knows what passes for leadership below the level of the big boss.

[chenGOD]

82. Beneath the big boss...

Is a mixture of hard-core isolationists and not quite so hard-core isolationists. The catch? The hard-core isolationists are the younger generation, as they've known nothing but North Korea.This is why it's imperative that Kaesong and Siniju work (these are the special economic zones that North Korea is setting up with South Korea and China respectively).

[Kinkistyle]

17. Whoa! Did the trains crash in downtown PyongYang?

I mean, 3000 casualties for a train crash is freakin unbelievable.

[Superfly]

18. ...

[MaineDem]

20. 50km north of Pyongyang (nt)

[Snow]

89. Asian cities & towns are typically much more tightly built

than American cities. Hell, come to that, European towns are a lot tighter. So that agricultural land can be maximized, and because they don't have to accomodate cars.

[Superfly]

94. And when 23 million people are impoverished

they aren't living in homes that can offer some protection from these kinds of accidents.

When I was in Argentina last Jan, there were many barrios that had homes constructed entirely of one layer of corrugated sheet metal over a crude wooden frame....and these neighborhoods were all built along the nastiest real estate, like railroads.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

138. thats pretty massive casualites...

....really shocking, actually.

[IMayBeWrongBut]

21. I just had a chilling thought.

Did the US just use a MOAB on a train in an attempt to kill the leader of N Korea?

The guy is pretty parinoid. I'm sure he's thinking it. I wonder how that will affect the tension there?

[Superfly]

22. Come on...

2 trains collided and blew up.

[IMayBeWrongBut]

24. I know I'm just being a drama queen here.

Those MOABs have to be droped from C130s I'm sure even the N Koreans can fend those off.

In reality, The Chinese probably gave the N Koreans a train load of fuel as the "aid" mentioned in the other story.

[will work 4 food]

30. Something smells

Who would know if the trains collided? Everyone in the visual blast radius is DEAD. I would bet that everyone is dead in a 2 block radius of the explosion. Hell, I timed c4 charge, smartly placed would have done the same. Perhaps target was Kim, and the timing was off a bit. Better luck next time.

Really folks, would you put it past rummy and dummy?

[Superfly]

34. What's really funny here

is that this is a developing story that is happening is a semi-closed country. Instead of waiting for the story to develop more, people here are flying off into fantasy world, talking about the MOAB, FAEs, and fabricating the most wild, implausible situations possible.

[rooboy]

40. About a week before Sept 11...

you had the leader of the Northern Alliance get killed. Events tend to come together when you're talking about the BFEE.

Cheney visits China.
Mueller visits China.
Kim Jong Il visits China secretly, but a story is published that he has been to China is taking the TRAIN home.

Little more than 24 hours after the news story one hell of an explosion occurs in a place where Kim's train was a few hours earlier.

When was the last huge explosion that killed 3000 people in your town?

[Superfly]

41. We're not talking about the BFEE

We are talking about a train collision in N Korea, though.

"When was the last huge explosion that killed 3000 people in your town?"

I have no idea what that means.

Remember that earthquake in Bam last year? Over 25,000 people were killed. This train collision is not implausible, and until further proof comes out, I shall believe it to be an accident, which do happen, ya know?

[rooboy]

45. No, you're right. The US Govt would never try to kill a foreign leader...

:eyes:

[Superfly]

47. Jebus, man.

The next time I stub my toe, remind me to *not* report it to DU. Shit, I'll start believing stories that the BFEE caused it.

[54anickel]

43. There was a similar accident in Iran Feb 18th. See post 39 n/t

[rooboy]

51. I'm well aware of the Iranian train accident...

that's not my point at all. Doesn't mean that the North Korean accident wasn't an act of sabotage.

[54anickel]

59. Not saying it was - see post 44 - Lists them all since 1900

[Zero Gravitas]

78. doesn't mean that it was either

It could be an awful accident, it could be a failed assisnation attempt, it could be any number of things.

[prodigal_green]

96. 9/11/01

[Zero Gravitas]

77. "fabricating the most wild, implausible situations possible"

welcome to DU ;)

[Superfly]

79. And I've been here since the beginning...

The explanations for some of the things that happen around the world never cease to amaze me.

[Zero Gravitas]

86. yup

I'm with you 100%. The illogical leaps and convoluted implausible (or just down right impossible) theories people sometimes come up with around here are just jaw dropping.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

90. He had been gone for NINE HOURS

[MaineDem]

23. N Korea train blast 'kills many'

New headline; same link.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Number of casualties?

Obviously, I haven't been to North Korea, but if the building patterns are similar to those in Japan and China, there could be a lot of offices and housing crowded around the train stations. A major blast occurring near a train station in either country could cause massive casualties.

[nostamj]

27. air america reported 3000+ dead

during the 11am newsbreak...

liquified gas... a nightmare scenerio.

[will work 4 food]

31. Liquified gas = mini nuke - radiation.

eom

[Guaranteed]

37. Oh my fucking GOD. nt

[Vladimir]

56. Fuck nt

[KDLarsen]

32. More dead than 9/11...

... yet, how much sympathy is N.K. going to get over this one? For some reason, I'm willing to bet that at least one right-wing radio host will spin the blame over to the nuclear weapons that N.K. might have.

[Superfly]

33. Sympathy is in short supply for N Korea...

90% of the population is without electricity or internal plumbing. The government hoardes (for it's massive military machine) whatever agricultural products the country produces. The youth are indoctrinated to hate everything the leader tells them to hate (see that documentary where the Diaries of Anne Frank were used as propaganda).

It's a sad state of affairs over there, and I truly hope they make out alright.

[chenGOD]

55. Where'd you get the 90% number from?

Just curious.

[Superfly]

57. National Geographic Magazine about 6 months ago...

I'm looking for corroboration right now...

[Superfly]

58. Here's a tidbit:

"The economy, which operates under tight state control (collectivized agriculture and state-owned companies account for about 90 percent of all economic activity)"

Link

90 percent of N Korea's economy is geared to support it's huge military complex.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

114. Right. Consider the source.

[Superfly]

116. That was just the first one at the top of a long list

of googled webpages. They all say the same thing.

[Romulus Quirinus]

80. They were actually doing alright until 1961

Then Kim Il Sung flipped out, scrapped the seven-year plan and went into military buildup overdrive. They've been stuck in that mode ever since. For something like 40 years almost no money has gone into consumer industry or agricultural improvement, with predictable results.

When the famine hit in the 1990s, they couldn't cope and over 2 million people died.

This is just one more in a long list of tragedies for North Korea. They have never had any sort of freedom. They go from one oppressor to the next, whether it be their own kings, the Chinese, the Japanese, Europeans, or the Kim regime. I think people for the most part understand this and don't blame the people.

JMHO, o'course

[theboss]

35. Good Gawd!

If North Korea's rail service is as FUBAR as the rest of the country, this is probably not too hard to explain. And I'm guessing that Lil Kim's travel schedule threw the rest of the system into further disarray.

Still, an unbelievable tragedy. There is no way can deal with this catastrophe on its own. I wonder if they let any relief agencies in.

[Superfly]

36. Bingo!

"If North Korea's rail service is as FUBAR as the rest of the country, this is probably not too hard to explain"

[Tinoire]

38. Reuter's: Thousands Dead or Injured in N.Korea Rail Blast-YTN

Thousands Dead or Injured in N.Korea Rail Blast-YTN
Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:44 AM ET

By Jack Kim and Martin Nesirky

SEOUL (Reuters) - Up to 3,000 people were killed or injured when two trains loaded with fuel collided and exploded at a North Korean station Thursday, hours after leader Kim Jong-il had passed through, South Korea's YTN television said. YTN quoted witnesses in its report while South Korea's Yonhap news agency, which spoke of widespread destruction, also said there were thousands of casualties. Neither Yonhap nor YTN gave a breakdown of deaths and injuries.

Yonhap quoted sources in the Chinese city of Dandong that borders the North as saying the explosion occurred around 1 p.m. -- nine hours after Kim's special train was reported to have passed on its way back to Pyongyang after a visit to China.

"The station was destroyed as if hit by a bombardment and debris flew high into the sky," Yonhap said, quoting the unidentified Chinese sources.

The sources said cargo trains carrying gasoline and liquefied petroleum gas collided at Ryonchon station 30 miles south of the border.

Yonhap also quoted a senior Defense Ministry official as saying the South's military -- which eavesdrops on North Korea -- had heard about the blast through "intelligence channels directed against the North."

<snip>

North Korea's official media broke their silence on Kim's three-day trip to Beijing Thursday -- strongly suggesting Kim was safely back in Pyongyang -- but did not mention the explosion. Kim does not travel by air when he does venture outside North Korea.

<snip>



http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews& ;storyID=4910109§ion=news

[54anickel]

39. Report from Seoul

http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=66618

snip>
The number killed or injured could reach 3,000, YTN said, citing unidentified sources on the Chinese side of the border.

"The area around Ryongchon station has turned into ruins as if it were bombarded," South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted witnesses as saying. "Debris from the explosion soared high into the sky and drifted to Sinuju," a North Korean town on the border with China, the agency said.

Yonhap, quoting witnesses in the Chinese city of Dandong on the border with the North, said the explosion occurred about 1 p.m. at Ryongchon. It said Kim passed through nine hours earlier, returning to Pyongyang. Ryongchon is about 12 miles from the Chinese border.

snip>
The accident resembled a disaster in Iran on Feb. 18, when runaway train cars carrying fuel and industrial chemicals derailed in the town Neyshabur, setting off explosions that destroyed five villages. At least 200 people were killed.

[54anickel]

44. Major Train Disasters Since 1900 - They're quick with this one

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/8493445.htm?1c

[Guaranteed]

42. How do we know this was an actual train crash?

It sounds as if there's next to nothing left.

Certainly few survivors.

[theboss]

46. Maybe it was that sun beam from the last James Bond flick

The paranoia here is a little unbearable at times.

[Superfly]

50. Agreed...

It's tragically funny.

[Guaranteed]

54. Or maybe it was a frickin' cruise missile.

Yeah, Il goes by a few hours before and the place blows up with 3,000 people. Just a coincidence.

[theboss]

61. People here blamed an EARTHQUAKE on Bush

I'm just saying train disasters happen and when they happen in backwards countries, they can be catastrophic.

[Guaranteed]

69. I'm saying look at the CONTEXT.

We don't have shit worth of information about what actually happened at the train station. What we DO know, though, is that Cheney just went to China, then Kim Jong Il, and they were trying to "work out" the deal with the nukes that NK has been threatening us with.

My guess is China was getting sick of Jong Il's misbehavior, and it's pretty obvious with the way that we condone what Israel has been doing that we have no problems with assassinations. Maybe Cheney and China's PM worked out a deal to try to kill him off.

This is AWFUL strange timing.

[Superfly]

70. I couldn't have said it better myself

"We don't have shit worth of information about what actually happened"

And, yet, that doesn't stop people from wildly fantasizing about the most insanely implausible explanations.

[Guaranteed]

72. Heh, you conveniently left off the "at the train station" part.

We DO know that Cheney and Jong Il just went to China to discuss this rather tense controversy concerning NK's nuclear weapons. That's the context I'm speaking of.

On edit: Man, it's all right there in front of you...you just gotta go ahead and put the pieces together...

[theboss]

71. So we missed him by NINE hours?

Our intelligence agencies are worse than I thought.

[Guaranteed]

76. Entirely possible. Maybe the train times changed.

Or...well, let's not get too speculative. But, there are other possibilities.

[Superfly]

81. Too late

"well, let's not get too speculative."

We passed that point at post # 3

[Guaranteed]

87. We're speculating, but not being too speculative.

Some speculation is important.

[Sterling]

134. We missed OBL bu about the same amount of time under Clinton.

Just sayin.

[rinsd]

109. LOL (nt)

[54anickel]

49. State of emergency and phone lines cut?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/04/22/international1125EDT0544.DTL

North Korean authorities declared a state of emergency Thursday in region where two fuel trains collided and exploded, killing or injuring as many as 3,000 people, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported.

The report did not give details, but said officials of the secretive North Korean government had put in place a "type of state of emergency" around the town of Ryongchon near the Chinese border.

In a sign of the accident's magnitude, the government cut international phone lines to prevent news of the crash from leaking across its borders, Yonhap said, citing no sources.

[maddezmom]

52. reporting the same on CNNI

keeps getting stranger... :shrug:

[theboss]

60. It's North Korea

Nothing done by that government should be deemed as "strange."

[54anickel]

62. You're probably correct, but I would hope the world wouldn't have

an attitude of shrugging off something strange here saying, Oh, it's just Bush.

[theboss]

64. What's strange?

Something terrible happened....The North Koreans are acting in their usual paranoid way.

Like I said, my biggest worry is that there is no way that government can handle this situation alone. I hope they at least let the Chinese in.

[Just Me]

63. Well, my guess is that they don't know what the hell happened,...

,...and are totally open to the possibility of some form of attack.

[maddezmom]

74. I'm sure if it happened in the US

folks would be thinking it was another attack as well.

[Snow]

91. Yes, that's typical behavior.

they react to problems by closing the clamshell, every time.

[AngryAmish]

53. When LP gas goes, it goes big

[Guaranteed]

65. Here are some recent news links concerning Cheney and Jong Il's visit

to China:

China says it offered aid to N.Korea during Kim's "successful" visit:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040422/wl_asia_afp/nkor...

North Korea's enigmatic leader makes 'secret visit':

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0421/p07s01-woap.html

N. Korea, China Leaders Meet, Talk Nukes

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040420/ap_on_re_as/china...


Just for starters. And people are calling this a coincidence? I don't frickin' THINK so.

[smb]

66. LNG Is Nasty Stuff

Frankly, it surprises me that North Korea has been lucky until now, given its Fourth-World infrastructure and insane government.

[ctex]

83. I strongly doubt LNG was involved in this incident

Liquified petroleum gas (LPG) is mostly propane and butane. Liquified natural gas (LNG), which is mostly methane, is transported in cryogenic tanks at about -260 degrees F. To my knowledge LNG is not transported by rail anywhere in the world.

North Korea also lacks the infrastructure to utilize LNG.

[AngryAmish]

88. Where is Hank Hill when you need him?

[Snow]

93. So far the story has not been confirmed by anyone other than Yonhap.

and I wonder how they got their information. Especially the details about the trains.

Something else bothering me. Isn't a train station an odd place for such a major collision? Trains are moving more slowly, there're plenty of sidings, places to shift trains off to. A big crash out in single-line countryside happens, especially in places (like the US) where the people running the trains are less than competent. But in a station? Seems considerably less likely.

[KittyWampus]

125. Penn Station JUST Had A Crash... If It Can Happen In NYC

it can happen ANYWHERES. Especially where infrastructure is rotting.

[daleo]

97. There seems to be room for speculation

Trains are linear sources, not point sources, so would an explosion and fire seem to mimic a bombardment?

Have similar train crashes (assuming there have been any) had effects like this in the west or other parts of the world?

How did everyone know within a few hours that 3000 plus had been killed? It took days to get a reliable estimate in New York after 911.

Will we be shown spy satellite photos in the near future? This shouldn't be hard to confirm that way, given that the crash and explosion were supposed to have happened at a major train station near the capital. The U.S. must have plenty of surveillance of an area like that. It should be a simple matter to release a few photos, to put tin foil hats to rest.

[Snow]

99. Okay, here's some clarificications, details, etc

From the NY TImes
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/international/asia/22CND-KORE.html?ex=1083297600&en=bd3b8b1548c61c5a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
- snip-
Train wrecks with large numbers of fatalities are rare in North Korea, largely because trains creak slowly along rails that were first laid during the Japanese occupation, more than 60 years ago.

The explosion took place on North Korea's busiest rail line, on the route from Pyongyang to China. A lifeline for the impoverished nation, the route brings in food and fuel from China, the North's leading trading partner and a major source of aid.
-snip-

This story's by a Korean reporter, Detroit Free Press - gives some sources for some of the original reports:
-snip-
`The area around Ryongchon station has turned into ruins as if it were bombarded,'' Yonhap quoted witnesses as saying. ``Debris from the explosion soared high into the sky and drifted to Sinuju,'' a North Korean town on the border with China, it said.

Cho Sung-dae, a Yonhap correspondent in Beijing, said his reports were based on Chinese sources in the Chinese border town of Dandong who had talked with their relatives in Ryongchon.

They described a massive explosion involving a large number of casualties but could not give figures, Cho told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. Cho also said North Korean authorities appeared to be shutting down the border with China after the incident.
-snip-

From swissinfo, some more interesting comments:
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=4886933
-snip-
Ryongchon is transliterated as Yongchon in South Korea and appears that way on most maps in the
West.

Yonhap also quoted a senior Defence Ministry official as saying the South's military -- which eavesdrops
on North Korea -- had heard about the blast through "intelligence channels directed against the North".

There was no immediate suggestion the blast was anything other than an accident.
-snip-

The swiss also quoted a Chinese rail worker just across the border, who says he didn't notice any explosion - bearing in mind it was around 30-40 miles away.

[Just Me]

100. Wow,...now, this is what I call a complete blackout.

I noticed that there was no indication "who" cut all international means of communication.

I sure would like more info about what the heck is happening,...especially considering INITIAL reports that thousands of people had been killed: very concerning.

[54anickel]

101. Bit more here -

This article states NK cut the lines.

North Korea clamps down on news
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow/633261.cms

SEOUL: North Korea appears to have cut international telephone lines to the area to prevent information about the explosion getting out. The North appears to have declared a type of emergency in the area.

snip>

A railway worker on the Chinese side of the Dandong border crossing told Reuters he had not heard of a blast and had seen no signs of any emergency effort under way.

"The closest station to here in North Korea is in Sinuiju (on the border), and I would have heard it. But I didn't hear anything," he said by telephone.

North Korea's official media broke their silence on Kim's three-day trip to Beijing on Thursday - strongly suggesting Kim was safely back in Pyongyang - but did not mention the explosion. Kim does not travel by air when he does venture outside North Korea.

Residents in Pyongyang said by telephone there was nothing unusual in the capital. North Korean television was broadcasting military songs and music - standard evening fare.

[Snow]

102. They all seem to be repeating the reuters story,

and still it looks like the main source of information is that Yonhap reporter in Beijing who got on the phone to Chinese people in the border town who heard from their Chinese relatives in Ryongchan. The South Korean defense ministry is being coy about whether and how they have information, but thus far it looks really limited. At this point, most of the description we're hearing is coming from these Chinese folks living in Ryongchan who've called their relatives across the border. Since they can't do that anymore, what we've got now is likely going to be all we hear for a while.

[54anickel]

105. Yeah, the railworkers story was a bit different and the reports from

Pyongyang by phone were added. I would assume those had to have been from before the lines were taken out?

[Snow]

107. The railworker was actually a Chinese guy in China,

and the Pyongyang reports are the "everything's normal; the music's playing" reports? Yeah, those will likely stop for a while as well.

[theboss]

126. Again, it's North Korea

You just aren't going to get any info from them.

[Domitan]

104. I am reminded of this movie

which was a political thriller featuring George Clooney (Special Forces agent) and Nicole Kidman (high level expert on the Soviet Union). There was a massive nuclear explosion coming from the trains in Russia, and it was rigged to bring back the Cold War. Not that this terrible tragedy is the same thing, but just made me think of that movie somehow.

[ignatius]

112. "A lifeline for the impoverished nation, the route brings in food

and fuel from China."

Two questions, how badly damaged is the track and how long will it take to repair it? For a starving people, this is disastrous.

Second thought, in warfare isn't one of the first acts to shut down vital supp;y lines such as food,fuel and water?

[okieinpain]

103. 3,000 dead, uhhhhhhh!!! can someone say nuke please.

[theboss]

106. Stop hitting the vein

That is all.

[Ediacara]

110. Not a nuke

The USGS has nothing concerning even minor Earthquake activity in any part of Korea for the last week:



A nuclear bomb would have created what would appear to be a small earthquake.

[Snow]

111. Thanks - good information - you sure it's up-to-date?

This sort of thing though is the information from another angle that we need right now.

[Ediacara]

115. As far as I know, it's updated almost instantaneously

The crash happened about 24 hours ago (this is from memory, so it could be less than that), and the catagories of indications are "last hour" "last day" and "last week." The USGS doesn't have to rely on North Korean seismologists for their info, and if there was a minor tremor, South Korean, Chinese, Japanese, American etc seismographs would notice, no matter how minor. If there were any earthquakes, boxes would appear on the map with the following colors and sizes:



The picture I posted will not self update on DU, but was accurate as of a few minutes ago. The direct link to the self-updating page is here for the eastern view and here for the western view.

[Snow]

117. Good, thanks much.

You're right, I'm in Pasadena & those little red squares pop up right way after a shaker. & a nuke would've jiggled them anywhere in the world. Still doesn't rule out an assassination attempt - there's some odd things about this story - particularly the speed the trains would've have to been going on that dilapidated system, and the collision occuring in or near a station, where'd they'd be traveling slower and there'd be more parallel lines.

[Ediacara]

119. You're right

There are a lot of questions (like those you list) that we'll never have answers to, simply because it happened in North Korea.

I was responding solely to the suggestion that it was a nuke. Because of the complete lack of even a minor earthquake or seismic signatire it either a) wasn't a nuke or b) was a nuke so small it wouldn't actually do much damage if it were to be used as a bomb.

In my opinion, even a small nuke would produce a 2.5 earthquake signature. Additionally, even if it hadn't, the USGS would still see some sort of shallow earthquake signature north of Pyongyang from that time, and it would be news.

So ya, long story short: lots of unanswerable questions, but was almost certainly not caused by a nuke.

[Chico Man]

132. I'm not sure they can get accurate reading of small seismic events in NK

I'm trying to find out as much information as I can.

There is something REALLY ODD about this.

http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/vander00/node3.html

It seems like there are still many challenges in this area...

I would not exactly rely on publicly available seismographic charts for events taking place in such shadowy countries..

Based on that site, the technology is there, but it seems to be quite complex.. way beyond taking seismographic readings in Cali..

[Ediacara]

140. If there is an earthquake anywhere in the world

It can be sensed by a seismograph ANYWHERE ELSE in the world, except w/i the shadow zone. Most the US is probably within the shadow zone, but China, S Korea, and Japan are not.



And trust me, if there was a small earthquake at a depth of zero kilometres 50 km north of Pyongyang anytime yesterday or today.... it would be seen on seismographs, and would be front page news.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. Newsflash for you....had it been a nuke, there would be a lot more than...

...3,000 dead and injured.

[St. Jarvitude]

108. How do two trains collide at a train station?

I'm not a train expert, but something at the very core of this doesn't seem right. How can two trains collide at a station? Is it common for trains to be going opposite directions on the same track? Or was this not a head-on collision? How could the tracks be close enough for a "side-scrape" accident?

There's not a lot of information on this, and there probably won't be, unfortunately. Until I get some information refuting my unease, I'm going to be very very troubled about this.

[54anickel]

123. Well, I doubt they were moving very fast....

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/22/international/asia/22CND-KORE.html?ex=1083297600&en=bd3b8b1548c61c5a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

snip>

North Korea is such a secretive and unconventional society — Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il's father, is still the head of state a decade after his death — that it is not expected to issue news of the train wreck any time soon.

Train wrecks with large numbers of fatalities are rare in North Korea, largely because trains creak slowly along rails that were first laid during the Japanese occupation, more than 60 years ago.

The explosion took place on North Korea's busiest rail line, on the route from Pyongyang to China. A lifeline for the impoverished nation, the route brings in food and fuel from China, the North's leading trading partner and a major source of aid.

[KittyWampus]

128. Trains Collided In NYC The Other Day

Gee, can't remember anyone suggesting terrorism.

[demdave]

118. ROVE! ROVE! ROVE! He's everywhere. He used HAARP to activate an

underground fault line in order to cause an earthquake just as the 2 trains passed. If only the North Korean Steven Segal had been there.

(bong hit)

No, no, he used the same EMP device he used to stop the car of that farm worker activist on the railroad tracks. Except this time he used it to stop only one of the trains, I believe it was the LP gas one. THEN, he used a localized electro-magnet, just like in the previously mentioned activist "accident", to accelerate the other train into the back of the stopped train.

(bong hit) (cough,cough)....(good stuff)hehehe

Then he had Micheal Jackson indicted in order to obfuscate his actions.

(anyone else want a hit of this?)

Damn you Rove!!!

[Ripley]

121. No, you've got it all wrong!

This was not stupid little Rove. This was the huge network of CIA goons under the direction of Unca Dick. See, he was just over there!

SSSSSAAAAAAARRRRRCCCCCAAASSSSSMMMMMMM.

Thanks DemDave! I remember those days! :smoke:

[Snow]

122. Yeah, ya know what guys,

while I understand your feelings that people are being silly and paranoid, I think you'd be more helpful if you actually had some points of information to back up your debunking, like the guy up above with the USGS earthquake maps. I think he's managed to disprove the nuke idea pretty thoroughly. How about yourselves? One of the reasons I like DU is because we have some good researchers and people who really have good specialized knowledge so we can usually find reasonable answers to questions like this.

[Ripley]

124. I'm supposed to only post "helpful" posts?

I agree totally with you that DU has some excellent researchers and I'm thankful for that. But DU also has it's share of folks who post the most outrageous shit.

Sorry, I don't have any good info to post to debunk. But I also think it is useful to some who are skeptical to have others share in that skepticism.

:)

[Snow]

127. Yeah, but your skepticism is based on no more information

than the paranoiacs. And the result is a bunch of uninformed people posting a lot of ignorant opinions. It's clutter. And in a situtation like this, we need as much solid information as possible, and as much debunking of the shaky information as possible. I hope you understand where I'm coming from here - this is a huge tragedy, happening in a place that's already in tragic straits, and where I have major family connections and where I feel a lot of responsibility

[Ripley]

130. I send my sympathies to your family, if involved.

Maybe you should go to a news source from the area to find out more hard news from reporters on the scene. Someone in GD had a link to India Times I think.

However, I will not agree that skepticism is the same "clutter" as people way out on a limb claiming that "Bush killed 3,000 Koreans." Sorry.

[theboss]

131. I wish nothing but the best for your family

I know this has to be extremely upsetting to you. The only thing I can say is that if you are looking for "hard" information, an board like this is probably not the best place to be. And - I'm sure you know - that this having happened where it happened, hard information is going to be extremely difficult to obtain. Even after the NK government makes a statement, we are still going to be speculating since nothing that comes from them is trustworthy.

My prayers are with everyone affected by this.

[54anickel]

142. Snow, here's another article with a bit more info -

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4915400

snip>
Friday's newspapers said the station was in the center of the town of Ryongchon near the Chinese border, possibly accounting for the high casualty figure. There was no confirmation of the reports which spoke of widespread destruction.

snip>
"The high casualty figure was because the accident occurred in a densely populated area," the newspaper Chosun Ilbo reported, quoting one unidentified source. It quoted another as saying there might have been a gas storage site nearby.

Another newspaper, Dong-a Ilbo, said there were apparently apartment blocks near the station.

"Trains stopped moving and merchants have been traveling by road," a trader told Dong-a Ilbo from Dandong on the other side of a border traversed daily by many people in both directions.

The reports, which quoted Chinese and other sources in the border region, gave no breakdown of deaths and injuries. There is a large South Korean press corps in Beijing.

[Oak]

120. I wish

I wish the world would end the suffering of the North Korean people. There have a Holocaust going on there right now.

[Heyo]

129. I agree....

That has to be the scariest place on Earth right now..

the entire country is a prison camp... scary stuff...

The population is completely brainwashed and indoctrinated....to a freakish degree...

I too hope that someday those poor people can get a taste of freedom.

Heyo

[Just Me]

137. Nowadays, when I hear someone advocating "freedom" for others,...

,...I am automatically suspicious. Must have something to do with the fact that the word "freedom" has been so abused and misused by our power-mongers.

AND, WHY IS THIS THREAD SO DAMN SLOW!?!?!!?

Is it 'cause it's loaded?

If so, why can't we start a new one with the most recent article?

[Moderator]

143. Due to large number of posts in this thread, please continue here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x504529