Black Watch ordered to join US cordon for assault on Fallujah

[DuctapeFatwa]

The Black Watch regiment was yesterday ordered by the Cabinet to help US forces throw a "ring of steel" around Fallujah before an all-out assault on insurgents in the city.

The 850-strong 1st battalion, including three companies of armoured infantry, totalling some 500 men, equipped with 50 Warrior armoured troop carriers, is being ordered to hold an approach road into Fallujah, where extremists including Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ­ who is believed to have murdered Kenneth Bigley ­ are thought to have their strongholds.

Robin Cook, the former foreign secretary who resigned over the war, last night warned Tony Blair that Britain will be associated with the blame if the assault on Fallujah resulted in heavy civilian casualties.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=574823

[The Magistrate]

1. In Other Words, My Friend

The U.S. does not have nearly enough troops available for the task it has set itself in this city. The fact is that battalions are being used to do what requires brigades. Once again, you will see the worst of both worlds in the event: a great many people will be killed to no purpose, and the assault will bog down short of success, ending in a farcical negotiation that will raise the prestige of the resistance.

"If you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. I imagine that regardless the prestige of the Resistance will be about the

same as the prestige would be, of people in the US who took up arms to defend their land against a foreign invader.

"success" cannot be accurately assessed until the next set of figures for the key defense and energy companies are released.

[The Magistrate]

4. Do Not Mis-Understand Me, Sir

Any people has the right to resist invasion, and for the most part, the Iraqi resistance has played within the rules, the greatest proportion of their actions by far being aimed at the occupying military forces, and their puppets.

Prestige is vital to guerrilla operations of any sort, and the guerrillas must be able to credibly present themselves as moving from success to success, in order to maintain support among the populace, without which any guerrilla movement is helpless.

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. here's a link to the latest Iraqi Resistance Report

http://www.albasrah.net/moqawama/english/0110/iraqiresistancereport_19-201004.htm

DU thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2529277&mesg_id=2529277

One item that I thought interesting:

"US raids computer centers as it tries to stifle all reports of Resistance against their occupation"

[getoffmytrain]

6. WOW!

that's a credible source you have there! <sarcasm>.

According to your source, 104 US troops died in combat in Iraq on October 20, 2004.

I didn't even bother to count the 'CIA agents'.

Give me a break.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. I noted that the Report is not vetted by US military censors

Any casualties, like anything else in the Report, are reported by journalists who routinely commit unauthorized entry into areas specifically and directly declared closed military zones, off limits to journalists, by US military personnel.

It is quite likely that most of these reporters have never even been to the Baghdad Sheraton, or are aware that full text of official US military briefings are available at defenselink.mil or centcom.mil

I encourage you to read the entire disclaimer, and understand that very few of the Iraqi people had the opportunity to see Wolf's guests yesterday who explained that the Resistance is rapidly drawing to a close, and that most Iraqis trust the US operatives who operate in their towns and neighborhoods.

[The Magistrate]

9. Most Of That Material Seems Un-reliable To Me, Sir

A sort of mirror of the Cent-Com reportage. There is no indication in the accounts that the writers were themselves witnesses. Nor does there seem any reason to suppose the casualty figures anything but optimistic guesses, as the battlefields do not remain in resistance hands after the engagements, and so there is no opportunity to examine and count corpses. Estimates of destroyed equipment, even when made in good faith with every intention of accuracy, are notoriously unreliable: military history is replete with instances where such claims not only far exceed actual enemy losses, but even far exceed the amount of equipment the enemy deployed in the theater.

What is modestly instructive in these reports is the indication of the number of attacks, for though it is known here by those who pay attention that there are scores of attacks each day, and that the number of attacks rises steadily, there is very little emphasis given to this in our news, and many people doubtless are lulled into imagining that it is only those occassional attacks that do cause serious casualties or loss of equipment that are reported take place.

[bemildred]

11. A bit of variety in one's daily diet of lies never hurts, Sir. nt

[The Magistrate]

18. Indeed, My Friend

It is always good to know the mind of all participants.

But it remains my custom to view all accounts as source material for some work to be written decades on, and this one will seldom be cited in the footnotes....

[bemildred]

23. Quite true.

Like the stuff on Centcom, one can rely on nothing, but since they both
do have a, ummm, desire to maintain such credibility as they may while
pursuing their other ends, one can pick up useful hints from time to
time, and of course the entertainment value is not to be overlooked, and
most of the time the English is better.

[DuctapeFatwa]

17. Under the circumstances, I begrudge no one a little - or a lot -of lulling

and I will be the first to concede that news reports from local Iraqi sources are not a good choice for the lullee sector :D

[The Magistrate]

19. That Is True, My Friend

They are aimed at exciting another group of persons, whose excitation the authors hope will serve their cause as much as the leaders here hope lulling a certain group of persons will serve their's. In each case, the account itself is a mere weapon of war, and in no wise to be viewed as a truthful chronicle.

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. The principal advantage that Mafkarat has is that they are the only

news org reporting from the battlefield, with the exception of the occasional US embed summoned for important media events, such as we saw in the hours before the first episode of the Debate Show.

This can also be seen as a disadvantage, as you point out, and it is not realistic to assume that every instance that they report casualties of US troops refers to US troops in the same sense as most Americans would use the term, but may, and probably does refer also to the various commercial wetworkmen employed by the US, as well as non-military personnel who perform similar duties, whether from the US or its "key allies."

It is also probably safe to assume that some who appear to a reporter peering out from behind a burned out tank to be dead are in fact only wounded. These reporters cannot follow the recovery teams, so they can't tell us who goes to the hospital and who goes to the morgue.

Personally, I think the US is overcautious in its titration of casualty releases, cover bans on Dover, etc.

It might be even counter-productive.

[The Magistrate]

28. That Last Is A Sound Point, My Friend

Casualties in war are unavoidable, and like a bath of cold water, it is better to plunge in straightaway and get used to the chill than to ease in gingerly toe by ankle by calve....

[NNN0LHI]

13. "and for the most part, the Iraqi resistance has played within the rules"?

You of all people Sir, know in situations as these there are no rules. Lets be honest here for a moment my friend. The Iraqis are fighting for their very existence as a free people. Lets not kid ourselves. The Iraqis have only two options. Victory or death. That is it. Nothing else. America as the invaders have many options. One of which is to pack up their gear and our Halliburton mercenaries, and leave. Pronto.

Rules? Talking about rules in this situation is ridiculous. Let me ask you something. If someone were to invade and occupy America and kill and maim our citizens by the thousands to steal our countries natural resources what rules would you play by in your effort to expel them, Sir? I am very curious.

Don

[getoffmytrain]

14. Say what you will....

but don't tell me that fighting to live under an Islamic dictatorship is fighting for freedom.

PS. are you the same NNNOLHI from the Buddhists boards at belief.net?

[leftchick]

16. perhaps they view it as...

fighting to not live under foreign occuption. What sort of government control they end up with is their choice. But first things first requires getting the occupiers...

[NNN0LHI]

25. No, I am NNN0LHI. Not NNNOLHI

Never heard of belief.net. See you later.

Don

[mike_c]

33. it is if that is the life you choose to live....

Freedom means different things to different people. What right do we have to impose our version on the Iraqis?

[The Magistrate]

20. It Pains Me To Disagree Somewhat, Old Friend

That there are rules to war is too valuable a concept overall to leave it go entirely in any situation, and the value of a unitary standard to apply to the actions of all sides is essential to any condemnation addressed to one side in particular. Otherwise, any criticism of even atrocious actions becomes easily dismissed as a mere propaganda, and it is not possible to rouse a genuine indignation against excesses.

Acts of war are to be aimed at military forces, and at those things essential to their support. Persons held captive by a force at war are to be treated decently. Those are the basic rules, though their full codification is considerably greater. For the most part, the Iraqi resistance acts in conformance with these rules, which to my mind makes it a respectable fighting force. Its military actions are usually aimed at the military forces of the occupier. In a resistance to occupation, persons collaborating with, or seeking to collaborate with, the occupier, are legitimate targets for resistance operations, and so persons lined up to sign on with the puppet army are as legitimate a target as any recruiting station would be in a conventional war, and it is a mere propaganda to say such an attack is directed against civilians. Where some elements of the resistance go beyond the pale is in attacks against legitimate international organizations, such as the United Nations, and in the occassions where prisoners are executed, as in the spate of "hostage takings" currently underway. Those are crimes, and remain crimes even if carried out in a legitimate cause. Legitimacy of purpose does not convey legitimacy to all action carried out in pursuit of that purpose. that is a basic principle, that can never be let go of.

[NNN0LHI]

24. I am sorry, Sir. But I respectfully disagree

I think we would need to live through Shock and Awe to truly understand the situation here. It is like being belly shot. You and I both know it would hurt like a sonuvabitch, but I think to truly appreciate such horror we would need to actually live it. The Marques of Queensbury rules and such would go out the window when the first Tomahawk cruise missile flew into one of my windows and killed my family. This is human nature so when some acted surprised by ruthlessness of the Iraqis I become confused. What modicum of decency does one expect when invading and occupying another mans country? Flowers and dancing in the streets perhaps?

Don

[The Magistrate]

27. It Surprises Me, Sir, That You Feel We Disagree

For it does not seem to me we really do. The Iraqi resistance is, by and large, conducting itself properly, and that is very much to its credit. Indeed, there is reason to believe that some of the atrocious actions committed in the name of resistance in Iraq proceed not from Iraqis, but from foreign factions that seek to use the situation in Iraq as a mere stage for their own pre-existing campaign against the West in the name of the Caliphite.

[NNN0LHI]

29. You write too deep for dummy's like me sometimes

Sorry for my ignorance old friend. Hey, lets forget what rules we expect the Iraqis to abide by and look at the more important question. The Iraqis are going to do whatever it takes to get us to leave. What are we going to do about it. That is the question. And I don't have an answer. I ain't got a clue old chum. I think we are screwed and tattooed to put it bluntly.

Don

[The Magistrate]

30. We Will Not Win This Thing, Sir

Home-field advantage is not to be ignored.

We would be better off departing as soon as it can be arranged without taking too much fire at the transports: it will be a painful and ignominious spectacle that will greatly encourage some thoroughly bad people, but that will, at least be an end to the damage. The first rule of holes applies, and something both bad and unavoidable is always, in my view, best gotten over quickly.

"A threat is generally more effective than its execution."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[NNN0LHI]

31. Gosh, you do not paint a very pretty picture of the inevitable

Isn't there some kind of "peace with honor" option here? Though I can't think of one, I was hoping you could. Even if it were a lie. :o

Don

[The Magistrate]

32. Not Really, My Friend

Pretend to turn it over to something we erect, and scoot, shouting "Iraq is now a democracy!" all the while. Put bluntly, anyone in power in this country is going to have to do that, sooner or later.

The real problem is more profound: military power is not a means of communication, it is not properly used to make points of discourse. As Mr. Goldwyn told his screenwriters; "If you want to send a message, use Western Union." The most basic motive behind this ill-starred venture was to demonstrate the irresistible nature of U.S. military power, the "Shock and Awe" you refer to, and communicate to a variety of actors the message they had better not even think of doing anything but what we tell them to do. What it has done instead is to define quite sharply the limits of U.S. military power, and embolden those very same actors by the establishing just what those limits are.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[bemildred]

10. Yes. Back in April there were reported to be around 2000

or 2500 Marines at Fallujah. The reports on the current "offensive"
have stated around 1000, and that explains why the Black Watch were
needed, both the number and the quality of the troops. This is a
last ditch effort, I'm not sure to do what, maybe just to put some
lipstick on the pig before the election, but they want the best that
can be had.

[GainesT1958]

2. I understand Blair's doing this...

In spite of a full-fledged revolt by even his most "Iraq-loyal" Labour MPs in the Commons. The Scotsman paper reported all-out opposition to that move by the Scottish Parliament, even by the Tories there!

I feel REALLY SORRY for all the relatives of the Black Watch; they are the pride of Scotland, and they are about to be sent into a killing field. I just hope they realize how many Americans--including those of Scottish ancestry, like yours truly--oppose this move as strongly as they do.:mad:

It's amazing just how many people have--or will--die or be severely wounded just because Dub LIED!:grr:

B-)

[bemildred]

12. If there is any doubt as to where Tony's true loyalties lie,

this ought to clear it up.

[grasswire]

8. but but but...........

....nobody ever hears about casualties anyway. So I guess it's a no-blame war.

How many stories did you see Thursday about four of Allawi's staff being gunned down in Baghdad and five mortar rounds hitting near Allawi on his trip out of town?

I saw none on television. One on yahoo.

[acmavm]

15. That's one of the things that's really had me puzzled lately. So many

battles, so few American casualities. So many bombings, a lot of injuries, and rarely a death.

I don't want Americans (or Iraqis) to die for this neocon quest for conquest and oil, but I am highly suspicious of the lack of fatalities amongst Americans. Either the insurgency has weapons that are fatal only to other Iraqis, or we are not being told the whole truth. And that's the problem, who do you believe. What about the story that a grave of 16 Americans was found outside Falluja the other day? Was this story debunked? Was it true?

Who do you believe?

[The Magistrate]

21. Most Attacks In War Fail To Kill Anyone, Ma'am

Comparison of ammunition expenditure to casualties inflicted have shown that literally thousands of shots are fired to kill a single soldier. That a great many attacks take place fruitlessly strikes me as a perfectly normal feature. It would seem to me difficult, under modern conditions of communication, to successfully hide any great quantity of casualties among U.S. forces: nowadays the soldiers have cell-phones, and call home....

[saigon68]

26. A number of them will "Die Like Dogs" for no good reason

Well actually the Halliburton stockholders will applaud their "sacrifice" for a good reason.

Massive Dividends to the shareholders. Crumbs to the taxpayer.