Two Marine Helicopters Shot Down in Iraq

[Englander]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4609179,00.html

Thursday November 11, 2004 1:01 PM

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - The U.S. military said Thursday two U.S. Marine attack helicopters were shot down in separate incidents near Fallujah and their crews were rescued without injuries.

Both Super Cobra helicopters were hit with rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire and were forced to make hard landings, the military said.

One of the choppers was hit 9 miles northwest of Fallujah, the other was hit a mile southeast of the city.

The pilots were not injured, and other helicopters rescued them from the area, the military said. Military quick reaction forces were sent to secure the sites.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[illuminaughty]

8. I pretty much lost it today when

I heard a soldier laughing saying "yeah, I sent four souls to Allah"

My mother and I got into an argument which is very rare. She said I didn't understand what it was like being in battle and that my father did when he served in World War II

No, there was a difference. So many of these men today are getting off on this. Especialy when you see media outside U.S. it's just disgusting. My father spent time in a psychiatric hospital after returning from England and 30 + flights over Germany. He denied killing anyone in an almost amnesiac way. And he was top gunner in a turret of a B-17. They diagnosed him as a schizophrenic. He only began to talk about the war late in his life. But he was never proud of any violence.

[Tesibria]

11. I don't think so...

I DID think so -- until I saw Fahrenheit 9/11.

Those guys are suffering - big time. Their words are harsh - truly harsh -- but their eyes are DYING. That scene with the boys playing that music and talking/acting tough while their eyes cried with despair has haunted me -- for months.

Of course - as in ANY large group - there are "sick" people among them -- but there are "sickos" among US too. It's the exception not the rule.

~Tesibria
-----------------------
www.democracyiscoming.com
www.cafepress.com/tesibria (T-shirts, etc. - "Proud Member of Moral Minority"-"Hitler had a mandate"-What would Jefferson Think-Count the Votes-Great Quotes-much more)

[illuminaughty]

20. I was referring to just that..the sick among them

Mob mentality is also part of the problem. I also believe that many are never going to recover from what they have seen and experienced.
This is not what most signed on to from the beginning.

My friend is a psychiatrist for the military. She was brought in after all the incidents of soldiers coming back and murdering wives.
She says it is a nightmare now. They've also been given many "performance drugs", it's just a mess whatever way you look at it.

[KingChicken]

18. I agree, some of the idiots i went to high school with are in Iraq

They used to play all the 3d shooter games, they were real American kids, now they are getting real bullets. I bet they are shocked when they first step into real combat, to see people actually dying (for real), I know these kids are living in a virtual reality, in their mental state they will kill just about anything, women, children, even animals.

[NCN007]

49. That argument reminds me...

...of how they heaped blame on Marilyn Manson and video games for the Colombine shootings. I was never allowed to play those kinds of games or even have GI Joes as a kid, you how do you explain me joining the military with these iditos (psst your bais is showing)? Im interested to know why you're so sure that they each are personally involved in war crimes on a day to day basis.

[The Sad Little Pony]

19. Good?

Good, huh?
Great.
Now we're rooting for the deaths of our own servicemen.

Empathy for the plight of the Iraqis is one thing.
But joy at the news of an American being shot down?
Just because he's a Marine, like the one you saw on "TeeVee"?
God help us.

Let's hope that this nightmare ends and they all come home.
Wishing death upon our fellow countrymen who are stuck in that mess is not cool.

[radwriter0555]

25. They're being paid to kill people. I don't have to pretend any

respect for that kind of hitler-esque brownshirt nazi-ism.

[The Sad Little Pony]

27. Everyone in the military...

...is paid for this.
You wish them ALL to die?
Poor kid from the Bronx has no options and enlists.
You wish him death?

EVERYONE in the military is a "hitler-esque brownshirt"?

There quite a difference between withholding your "respect" for these men, and celebrating their deaths, as you have done.

Shame on you.

[Name removed]

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[freemarketer]

41. Baloney. These Marines are thugs. They take shots through civilians

that many, including me, would have avoided in Vietnam. They think it's a big game--until they get theirs......

[The Sad Little Pony]

57. By "baloney"...

...are you saying that we SHOULD celebrate their deaths?

Have you been there, in Iraq?
Have you seen Marines taking shots "through civilians"?

[Name removed]

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[Forkboy]

36. Why not just write out the fuck part too

It'll be deleted either way :)

[0007]

2. Do 'ya always make a hard landing when your shot down?

[Dhalgren]

4. Unless you land in the loading area at a pillow factory...

[NCN007]

50. Not necessarily

A good pilot can sometimes put even a critically damaged helo on the deck safely, it all depends on how it was hit.

[jmcgowanjm]

3. Losing a Colonel's a massacre

I call losing a lot of draftees a bad week. Losing a Colonel's a massacre. -We Were Soldiers.

So what would the US call losing a Command Sergeant
Major.

According to the Department of Defense, Command Sgt.
Maj. Steven W. Faulkenburg of Huntingburg, Ind., was killed
early Tuesday by small arms
fire.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/193859-1847-009.html

Command sergeant major advises and
initiates recommendations to the commander and staff
in matters pertaining to the local NCO support channel.
Perhaps slightly wiser and more experienced than the
first sergeant, the command sergeant major is expected
to function completely without supervision. Like the old sage
of times past, the command sergeant major’s counsel
is expected to be calm, settled and unequivocally accurate,
but with an energy and enthusiasm that never wanes, even in
the worst of times. Assignable to any billet in the Army,
the command sergeant major is all those things, and more,
of each of the preceding grades of rank.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/enlist.htm

[Dhalgren]

6. What the hell was a CSM doing on the combat line?

Or is the "line" completely imaginary? Jesus, this gets stupider and stupider...

[jmcgowanjm]

5. The BBC News website spoke by phone to Fadhil Badrani

a journalist in the city who reports for the BBC World Service in Arabic.

The heaviest fighting has been in the north of Falluja

I went for a walk around the city last night after the
Americans pulled back.

It was very quiet - often the only sounds coming from
the movement of fighters along streets and
rooftops.

In places, it was also very dark, with only the occasional rocket
or flare lighting the way.

Wherever I went, I found broken buildings and bodies -
local people and fighters killed on the streets.

Clutching weapons

I also saw four crippled US tanks and three abandoned Humvees.

In the Hasbiyyah area, I counted the bodies of at least six
US soldiers lying on the ground.

[jmcgowanjm]

7. Americans Expelled From Three Districts

Mujahideen Control Majority Of Fallujah; Americans Expelled From Three Districts

As of this filing, fierce fighting is now underway in the Al-
Shuhada neighborhood, with the Mujahideen having
retaken Al-Ghuaifi, Al-Mualimeen, and Al-Askari
neighborhoods. American snipers are now absent except
on some roof tops on the two main
roads.

According to Mujahideen sources and first reported by
Quds Press, the Al-Golan, Al-Mualimeen, and
Officers neighborhoods have now been completely cleared
of occupations forces and Iraqi flags have been erected
on buildings in these areas. (JUS)

[TacticalPeek]

12. And then Saladin descended from a fiery cloud

and personally bit the 120mm gun off of an infidel Abrams tank with his own gleaming white, cavity-free teeth.

According to Mujahideen sources.

[jmcgowanjm]

14. And Satan's in Fallujah/Suppose he has a nice garden or something?

When contacted for comment the Mayor of Fallujah
was surprised to hear that Satan was living in his town.
“That’s news to me, ” he said, ducking for cover as
American warplanes dropped hundreds of tons of
high explosives on a childrens hospital just across the
street. “For centuries Fallujah has been known as the City
of Mosques… We have a mosque on every corner. I think I
would have noticed if the Christian Satan had moved in to
town. For one thing, he would need to have a zoning permit if
he was planning on working here.”

http://andysocial.com/archives/2004/11/07/satan-lives-in-fallujah/

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK11Ak03.html

“The enemy has got a face. He’s called Satan. He lives
in Falluja. And we’re going to destroy him.” –
Lt Col Gareth Brandl
(wonder if he knew CSM Falkenberg)

Somebody comes in and destroys my electricity
and hospitals, doctors, nurses, medics.

See how long they stay.

[Mizmoon]

16. I know a Navy doc who served with the Marines

during the invasion of Baghdad. He said the Iraqis used to claim they had a medical emergency, send an ambulance, and soldiers would come out of the back firing. This is someone who was there with whom I personally spoke.

There are always two sides to every story.

It is interesting to know what their side is saying, but I don't find them anymore believeable than Faux News.

[jmcgowanjm]

21. Yea, That's what the IDF says, too

Just don't go around then and say
god's
on your side,
Satan's on theirs.

And I'd like to see Powell get up and
say that's why ambulances are targeted.
See how long he could stick w/ that
position.

[bhikkhu]

42. Targeting ambulances...

as near as I can tell from various reading, wartime conventions prohibit the transport of armed fighters in ambulances and guarantee their safety . In Falluja during the first siege apparently many armed fighters accompanied their wounded comrades, and were clearly visible disembarking in the hospital areas. US snipers in the vicinity then began targeting ambulances. I would not fault the Fallujans for not knowing the rules. As for US soldiers, it is marginally worse to destroy ambulances (by the rules or not) than it is to pick-off any living thing moving with sniper fire in a populated city.

[NorthernSpy]

15. everything is shrouded in a dense fog of propaganda...

... and all sides produce it. Some of it is obvious, and some of it probably escapes our conscious notice entirely, even as it shapes our thinking. That's the kind I'm more worried about.

It's so hard to get a clear picture of what's happening.

[Roland72]

51. Yeah

I agree

[reprobate]

28. Four M-1 Abrams destroyed? If true it means trouble.

The Abrams is supposed to be impervious to anything an individual can carry. If they are being turned to scrap by 'insurgents' then this is no longer an asymetric war. They are fighting us on almost equal terms and that means we have already lost.

The tank is the one weapon that is supposed to negate the role of the individual foot soldier. When a foot soldier can destroy a tank with nothing but a shoulder weapon, that makes the fight almost even. The only thing separating the two sides now is aircraft delivered weapons, and the 'insurgents' know how to fight that: just be where the aircraft are not. That's why all the attacks in other cities now. In other words, we lost.

In fact, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see an attack on wherever saddam is held and see him released by the insurgents. And that would make all the sacrifices of the young lives lost there for nothing. But at least we have a "Moral Man" in the white house.

[PsychoDad]

56. Taking out the tracks...

Will cripple a tank from moving. An rpg or explosive charge well placed can acomplish that.

Then, if there are snipers, the crew is traped inside until help can arrive.

[liberalmuse]

9. So that's what happened...

to those 4,000 missing rpg's. There'll be more of this to come. And it doesn't look like they've even begun to use the 776,000 pounds of missing explosives. Has there ever been a more incompetent 'war leader'?

[0007]

10. I can't think of one right now!

It appears that most everyone is gone and the party has started in Baghdad.

[jmcgowanjm]

13. The question: is Iraq an unplanned disaster

or is it a planned disaster proceeding perfectly?

“I know what they are doing to us-they are putting is in a big
jail. First they close the borders with Syria and now Jordan,
so we are trapped in Iraq,” says Salam. “Now they put a
curfew on Baghdad. This is the first. The second is that
the highway bridge connecting us to the west of Baghdad
is bombed. Another bridge that leads to the south (Kerbala,
Hilla, Najaf) was bombed. And now the other highway south
to Amara, Nasiriya and Basra is blocked.”

“So all they have left to close is the highway to Diala…when
that last one is closed, we are locked in to Baghdad,”
explains Salam, his face stoic but concerned, “We are in. This
is our life here man.”

http://vitw.org/cat/voices-from-iraq/dahr-jamail/

[bemildred]

17. I doubt that a military disaster in Fallujah is planned.

The comment on "ten days to clear the city" is interesting.
We are three or four days in now, and what little one can infer
about attrition sounds rather double-minus ungood. The offer of
amnesty was a hint too, I thought. I suppose a good deal depends
on the situation with the resistance inside Fallujah and their
supply situation. The last time (Spring) there was fairly good
first-person reporting that the sealing of the city was leaky,
and I expect resupply will be a major factor here too. It does
seem clear that we are once again failing to assert "control"
in any useful meaning of the word. I predict another ignominous
retreat, within say a week, depending on how long these fools are
allowed to remain in charge and/or obeyed on the American side.
One can at least infer from the Landstuhl numbers that the iraqis
are giving a good account of themselves.

[jmcgowanjm]

23. I'll go w/ that, bemildred

On disaster planned, I was thinking more along the lines
of Iraq strategicly.

1-everything that bush has touched has
turned into disaster(except for Texas Rangers stadium,
& the only thing bush did w/ that deal
was lend his name).

2-I can just see a neocon making the following
statement-"At the very least, Iraq will become
a failed state".

[ilovenicepeople]

46. My pick is "a planned disaster proceeding perfectly."

If it can go wrong that will be the road likely choosen.If you think things are bad right now,wait tell you look back at today as a time that was pretty F***ing beautiful.

[Massacure]

37. 4,000 missing rpgs? RPGs were never missing, I think you mean Stingers

In the eyes of a pilot, Stingers are a whole hell of a lot dangerous than RPGs.

[maddezmom]

22. newest propaganda...Helo's made emergency landing

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Two US helicopters were forced to make an emergency landing in Iraq (news - web sites) after coming under attack from small arms and rocket propelled grenades, a US military spokeswoman said before adding that there were no casualties.

"Two Cobra helicopters were forced to make an emergency landing after taking small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire," she said Thursday.


"The helicopters landed on their own power and there are no injuries reported and the crew is safe."


She refused to provide further details or to say where the incident happened.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041111/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_helicopter&cid=1514&ncid=1480


In other words, they were shot down.

[jmcgowanjm]

24. "We need to stick it out and

and not cut and run as we did in Vietnam."
Arnaud deBorchgrave UPI Wash Times

on Fox just now.-
9:45amC

It's official-The US is being run by
LoonyMoony war criminals.

Bulletin Alert:

Dateline New York City:
11.11.04

Democracy Plaza has been over run by
recalcitrant forces. They are renaming the
square, Rockefeller Plaza.

Their information officer keeps repeating,
"Democracy is for losers".

More to follow.

[maddezmom]

26. some reports suggest one of the pilots was hit with small-arms fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4003549.stm

[teryang]

31. Hey anything that keeps Bolton and Cheney out of NE Asia

...and away from the Korean crisis is good for Moon and his spokesman, deBorchgrave.

[teryang]

29. Forcing an attack aircraft to abandon its mission

...is a tactical victory. This is how victory is defined in the air defense world.

[maddezmom]

30. thanks for the clarification

thought so myself :)

[jpak]

32. These pilots are obviously taking some risks to provide air support.

Two Cobras shot down also suggests that ground fire in Falluja must be horrendous.

(or that the insurgents are mighty handy with RPG's)

So much for "light resistance"...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

39. I'm not American

And I'm not rooting, I respect and feel sorry for all personal tragedies, but sorry, those soldiers occupying Iraq and slaughtering people are the enemy and I hope they are defeated, for the good of human kind.

The more casualties Americans suffer, the sooner they will leave Iraq and let the country start rebuilding the destruction they caused. Americans cannot be negotiated with, they understand only force.

Is this really hard to understand?

[Forkboy]

40. sadly,this is so true

Americans cannot be negotiated with, they understand only force.

[Name removed]

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[Dem_Loyalist]

43. I don't understand it either

I have a cousin that's there RIGHT NOW. He's a good democrat just like me. He voted for John Kerry and hates the war. Hes not a baby killer. He's not some rich white kid out for thrills. Hes only trying to do something for our country. I have to wonder what some people here would say about him. :(

[NCN007]

52. This rich white kid

Is the only one he knows in the military, and certainly isnt there for thrills. If I wanted thrills I'd have gone to real college and got high all the time. If you want to call me a baby killer thats you right. (The fact that you have this right thanks to the sacrifices of the military is for another, much longer, post.) Just remember that the more of the left that sounds like the further you push me and other pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-social program, pro-gay rights, anti-big corporation members of the armed forces towards that red/blue line. Who knows what states Fort Bragg, Camp Lejune, and NAS Pensacola are in?

[Porcupine]

53. Your CIC, an idiot, kills your buddies for political

bragging rights at home.

No WMD's. No Iraqi involvement in 9/11. Hell Iraq was selling us oil at $30 per barrel or some such.

That and he sent the troops into the exact same situation that got the Russians ass handed to them at Grozny. Warfare against urban guerrillas sucks. Add religion and it's a nightmare.

I want those troops on a boat home. Yacking up every single death and casualty helps the living.

[NCN007]

54. Question

Which living are you talking about? Last time I checked, the US military was made up of living and breathing people, just like the insurgents. It sucks for the civilians there, and we shouldnt have gone in in the first place, but would the almost inevidable civil war and bloody struggle for power that would result if we pulled out be better? I dont think so.

"I may be wrong, but I doubt it" -Charles Barkley

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Forkboy]

47. Not rooting for their deaths

Just want them the fuck out of where we have no business being.For their sakes and the Iraqis.

Rooting for anyone's death isn't something I do (though I'm not above feeling good when certain folks do die,however the troops aren't one of those for me).

[pinkpops]

35. picture

Cost a few bucks I suppose