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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 10:45 PM
Original message
Decision 2004: Iran or Sudan? (antiwar.com)
Decision 2004: Iran or Sudan?
by Gordon Prather, July 31, 2004

Well, now we know that no matter who wins in November, we’re going to stay in Iraq as long as it takes and do whatever it takes to achieve final victory – whatever "victory" means.

The election will, however, decide which country is next to have its "regime changed."

If Kerry is elected, it’ll be Sudan. If Bush is reelected, it’ll be Iran.

(...)

So, there you have it. No matter who’s elected we’re going to unilaterally effect regime change in at least one more Islamic country.

Why unilateral? Why can’t we get the UN Security Council to authorize our regime changes? Well, there’s those pesky Chinese.

You see, a Chinese company, Zhuhai Zhenrong Corporation, has just signed a long-term agreement with the current Iranian regime to buy $20 billion worth of liquefied natural gas. Zhenrong also imported 12.4 million tons of crude oil from Iran last year and expects to complete deals soon to develop three Iranian oil fields.

As for Sudan, it is also oil rich, and the holder of the biggest oil development concession from the current regime is China.

Needless to say, China will veto any Security Council resolution calling for regime change in either Sudan or Iran.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/prather.php?articleid=3214
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is an anti-Kerry article
We have a nominee now, and there must be no negative posts about John Kerry.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. how is this an anti-Kerry article?
I don't necessarily agree with the author's stance and I don't like his choice of words in some cases, the "loony left" label e. g. is misleading.

But the article makes an interesting prediction: that uni-lateral strikes will continue regardless of who occupies the White House.

Whether or not this may be true is a point of interest here, don't you think?

Since the author supports his prediction with some reasonable arguments, I think the article is at least worth reading.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. It's an anti-Kerry article because it is one of many rightwing ...

... arguments floating about today, which has a single real aim: to persuade the public that will be no significant foreign policy difference between Bush and Kerry.

Sure, he dug a hole or two, and threw in some manure, but before you admire his gardening prowess, attempt to discern what he's trying to grow.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. James Gordon Prather is a rightwing conspiracy theorist.

The object of the present article, of course, is to argue that there is no meaningful foreign policy difference between Bush and Kerry, a tactic intended to depress turn-out among non-rightwingers (and going back at least as far as the Nixon era). Prather also provides a nauseating attack against humanitarianism by arguing that only "the loony left" regards "human rights abuse, ethnic cleansing and genocide" as evidence that a regime is criminal.

Prather is a favored writer at WorldNetDaily, has published in the Washington Times, and helped push the rightwing lies about Clintonian betrayals of the US to China. There's really no reason to link to his balderdash from a progressive site like this.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/archives.asp?AUTHOR_ID=35
http://www.sepp.org/NewSEPP/LooseNukes-Gordon.htm
http://www.polyconomics.com/prather.html

Must we really waste limited bandwidth at DU by linking to our political enemies? What is the point of this?
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. humanitarianism
He actually does point out what is supposed to be the meaningful foreign policy difference: an expected change of focus back to "humanitarian intervention" (but intervention nonetheless).

I do not agree with his view that Clinton was "egged on" by the "loony" left, those on the left who are usually honored with this epithet were just about the only ones (plus some isolationists like himself) who very strongly opposed the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo. These illegal NATO interventions were supported by the political mainstream of all major parties, and there was nothing "progressive" about it, in my view, and in the view of the authors of Z-Mag, The New Left Review, Counterpunch, to name but a few. I guess these people are not "progressives" according to your definition?

The story comes with a sloppy, cynical twang. That need not detract you from pointing out the substantial flaws, if any, in his prediction, namely that we will have to expect further military interventions, without the proper legal framework of international law being developed accordingly.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. There's nothing to debunk: ...
... he has no real basis for his predictions. He shows no insight whatsoever into the technical steps taken by advocates of intervention in Iraq over a period of years to lay the ideological groundwork for the invasion, which followed once its architects obtained control of the Federal executive authority, had the "new Pearl Harbor" (sought for in PNAC documents) as the justification for their designs, and had conducted their polls to determine the time at which their propaganda had successfully produced a public majority for war. Since a resolution or two accomplishes nothing, who cares if he can cite text from two recent resolutions, and who would want to waste the time to try to determine whether he meant to cite concurrent resolution 467IH or 467EH?

As I stated clearly before, the object of his argument is obviously to push the view that there's no meaningful difference between Bush and Kerry. Discussing other details of the essay serves no purpose, except to lend an air of credibility to that primary claim.

Gambit politely declined.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Since, as far as I can tell, I made no claim whatsoever ...

regarding Prather's view of the PNAC, or views expressed at antiwar.com about PNAC, I wonder whether it is a bit dishonest for you to write, in response to my remarks, "I think it is a bit dishonest to claim that this author, or anyone at antiwar.com, may not be serious in their contempt of the PNAC agenda."

Let me say, again, slowly, that Prather is a dedicated conservative partisan, who has pushed for much of the Bush agenda. He has pushed for rehabilitation of Reagan's stars wars and for a new generation of nuclear weapons. He supported Bush's withdrawal from the ABM treaty. He opposed Kyoto. He has followed the Bushista line that fault for the Iraqi war lies with George Tenet. When he has nothing else to write about, he habitually bashes Clinton.

Whatever Prather's actual analyses might be, I do not confuse his public polemic with serious analysis. I have indicated clearly above why I regard this article as polemic and why I find it analytically lacking.

Your citation of other Prather material simply indicates to me that in other contexts, Prather freely adapts his rhetoric; it does not suggest that text at hand provides a clear analysis.

In asserting that I am incorrect to interpret Prather as promoting the idea that "there's no meaningful foreign policy difference between Kerry and Bush," you claim that you yourself do not believe that there are no such differences.

But then why, in this context, would you ask me to point out the differences to you? And why would you ask me to discuss the differences between an invasion of Iran and of Sudan?

The answer, to me, seems obvious: your intent is merely sophistical.

The article argues that Bush will overthrow the Iranian government and Kerry the Sudanese. A number of trial balloons launched by the administration over an extended period makes that first assertion highly credible. So far as I know, nothing in the record supports the second assertion. For me to overlook this, and engage in the side discussions you suggest, merely creates noise suggesting Prather has provided a thoughtful analysis, when in fact he has not.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. hm
Edited on Mon Aug-02-04 02:28 AM by reorg
I am not sure what the problem is here.

Sorry if you felt insulted by my remark that an honest reading of articles at antiwar.com will have to acknowledge that these guys -- whatever their motives and other affiliations may be -- heap contempt at -- and sincerely criticise the PNAC agenda.

This criticism includes, in my very humble opinion, and from what I have read there frequently, "the technical steps taken by advocates of intervention in Iraq over a period of years to lay the ideological groundwork for the invasion, which followed once its architects obtained control of the Federal executive authority, had the "new Pearl Harbor" (sought for in PNAC documents) as the justification for their designs, and had conducted their polls to determine the time at which their propaganda had successfully produced a public majority for war."


As to a possible intervention by the US in Darfur -- it may have escaped your attention, but Kerry stated in his remarks to the NAACP convention:

"The United States must lead the UN Security Council in sanctioning the planners and perpetrators of genocide and authorizing an international humanitarian intervention."

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=129-07152004


Since the author which you so despise makes clear -- not unreasonably -- that in his opinion such a Security Council decision will not come to pass, due to a Chinese veto, he concludes that such an intervention will take place without such a veto. A prediction, or speculation, naturally.

If you think that the author is mistaken and that there will be no intervention without a Security Council resolution - fine.

I shall applaud Kerry very loudly if he does not take to unilateral interventions. If he even takes some well thought-out steps to strengthen the UN, I will applaud even louder, he will be my hero.

I certainly hope he will!

And to bring this to an end. That - for me - is the major difference between the two foreign policy predictions: With Kerry there may be a shred of hope that he will not proceed unilaterally, with the posse on the other side, there is none whatsoever.

Being realistic, however, it does not suffice to just trust the leadership and shut one's mouth. We must make our expectations heard, loudly and publicly, and be able to talk about what we expect, for chrissake.



ed. for word left out










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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-02-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I wrote, in answer to your author's prediction ...
... that both Bush and Kerry plan unilateral regime changes, that I knew of no evidence that Kerry intends to overthrow the government of Sudan, in response to which you quote from a Kerry statement asserting "The government of Sudan and the people of Darfur must understand that America stands prepared to act, in concert with our allies and the UN, to prevent the further loss of innocent lives."

The precise phrasing, which you cite, contemplates "sanctioning the planners and perpetrators of genocide." This diplomatic language neither supports your author's view that Kerry plans unilateral regime change nor provides evidence that Kerry intends overthrow of the Sudanese government.

When citizens make "their expectations heard, loudly and publicly," by repeatedly citing rightwing polemicists with approval, I of course naturally suspect the expressed views serve a rightwing agenda.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Large doses of speculation supported by miniscule bits of fact.
Mr. Kerry will have to deal with the finiteness of US resources
and the uncooperative attitude of all the various parties Shrub
has annoyed and offended. A good deal of sucking up will be
required in the best of circumstances. We will not be doing
anything unilaterally, however much this half-wit wishes to
think so. Like the Brits in the Falklands War, Iraq was our
last shot at solitary imperial splendor.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. more profound analysis by major humanitarian intervention proponent
Maybe some more European governments can be sucked into the next "coalition of the willing". But this is not the point.

The question is whether we can hope for a major foreign policy change under a new administration. Mr. Prather does not seem to believe that real multilateralism is possible, given that the interests of certain security council members more often than not conflict with those of the US.

Maybe he is wrong -- but what would be the requirements for real change? Mr Habermas, widely noted and eminent liberal voice in Germany throughout the last 35 years (rumor has it that he coached our current foreign minister before the latter took office), published some observations and suggestions in this respect a year or so ago.

Since the translation is in the public domain, and the German original is publicly available at a German government site (state of Thueringen, see below), I guess it is ok to quote a lengthy excerpt here (emphasis mine):

______________________________________________________________

Translation of: "Was bedeutet der Denkmalsturz?" in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 17 April, 2003, p. 33; translation by habhamaf;

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2003w19/msg00001.htm

PDF with scan of article in German:

http://www.thueringen.de/tkm/akt2003/rundbrief/rundbrief07b.pdf

______________________________________________________________


What does the felling of the monument mean?
by Jürgen Habermas


Let us not close our eyes before this revolution in world affairs: the normative authority of America lies shattered

(...)

On the face of it everything is clear-cut. An illegal war remains an offence against international law even if it leads to consequences which are normatively desirable. But is that the end of the story? Undesirable consequences can negate a good intention. Couldn't perhaps favorable consequences unfold, retrospectively, a legitimating influence? The mass graves, the subterranean cells and the reports of the tortured leaves no doubt about the criminal nature of the regime; and the liberation of a tormented population from a barbaric regime is a high good, the highest under the politically desirable goods. In this respect the Iraqis pronounce, whether they celebrate, loot, suffer apathetically or demonstrate against the occupiers, a judgment upon the moral nature of the war.

With us (in Germany) two kinds of reactions have become apparent in the political sphere.

The pragmatists believe in the normative power of the factual and place their faith in a practical judgment which, with an eye on the limitations which politics imposes on the realization of morality, pays its respects to the fruits of victory. In their eyes carping about the justification of the war is fruitless, since this has now become a historical fact.

The others, whether capitulating before the power of the factual out of opportunism or out of conviction, brush what they hold to be the dogma of international law aside with the argument that the latter - full of post-heroic squeamishness against the risks and costs of military force - refuses to acknowledge political freedom as the true good.

Both of these reactions are off the mark, since they give in to an affect against the ostensible abstractions of a 'bloodless moralism' without clarifying for themselves just what it is that the neo-conservatives in Washington are offering as an alternative to the domesticization of state force by international law.

For the neo-conservatives confront the morality of international law not with realism or with the pathos of freedom but with a quite revolutionary perspective: when international law fails then the politically successful hegemonic enforcement of a liberal world order is morally justifiable even when it seeks recourse to means which are indefensible in the light of such international law.

(...)

But global power ambition is not an end in itself for the new ideologues. What distinguishes the neo-conservatives from the school of the 'realists' is the vision of an American world political order which has jumped the reformist rails of the UN policies on human rights. It does not betray the liberal goals, but it does break the civilizing bounds which the charter of the United Nations placed with good reason upon the process of goal-realization.

The world organization is certainly not yet in a position, today, to force deviant member states into offering their citizens a democratic and rule-of-law based order.

And the highly selectively pursued human rights policies are subject to the proviso of implementability: the veto-power Russia needs not fear an armed intervention in Chechnya. Saddam Hussein's use of nerve gas against his own Kurdish population is but one of many instances in the scandalous chronicle of the failure of the community of nations, which looks the other way even in cases of genocide.

All the more important is hence the core function of peace-keeping, on which the existence of the United Nations is based - i.e. the enforcement of the ban on wars of aggression, with which, after World War II, the jus ad bellum was abolished and the sovereignty of individual states curtailed.

With that, classical international law had at least taken one decisive step in the direction of a cosmopolitan legal order.

The United States - which for half a century could claim to be a pacemaker on this road - has, with the Iraq war, not only destroyed this reputation and given up the role of a guarantor power in international law; with its violation thereof she sets future superpowers a disastrous example.

Let's not kid ourselves: America's normative authority lies shattered.

(...)

The comparison with the intervention in Kosovo also offers no exoneration. It is true that an authorization by the Security Council in this case was not reached either. But the retrospectively obtained legitimation could be based upon three circumstances: on the prevention - as it seemed at the time - of an ethnic cleansing in the process of taking place, on the imperative - covered by international law - of emergency assistance holding erga omnes for this case, as well as the incontrovertibly democratic and constitutional character of all the member states of the ad hoc military alliance.

Today the normative controversy is dividing the West itself.

Admittedly, a remarkable difference in the argumentative strategies between the continental European and the Anglo-Saxon powers had begun to manifest itself already then, in April of 1999. While the one side drew from the disaster of Srebrenica the lesson that military intervention was necessary to close the gap between efficacy and legitimacy which earlier missions had revealed - to make headway in the direction of a fully institutionalized world civil rights - the other side was content with the goal of spreading its own liberal order elsewhere in the world, by force if necessary. At the time I ascribed this to differences in the respective legal traditions - Kant's cosmopolitanism on the one hand, John Stuart Mill's liberal nationalism on the other.

But in the light of the hegemonic unilateralism which the policy theorists of the Bush Doctrine have been pursuing since 1991 - as Stefan Frühlich showed in this newspaper on 10th April - one could surmise, with hindsight, that the American delegation was already pursuing the negotiations of Rambouillet from this novel perspective.

(...)

This doctrine was developed long before the terrorist attack on the Twin Towers. The cleverly instrumentalized mass psychology of the shock of 11 September did however first of all create the climate within which this doctrine could find broad support - if in a somewhat modified version, that of the "War against Terrorism". That it should come to a head in the Bush Doctrine is something it owes to the definition of a novel phenomenon in the familiar concepts of conventional warfare. In the case of the Taliban regime there was indeed a causal connection between a terrorism difficult to pin down and an attackable 'rogue state'. According to this model it is possible to adapt the classical conduct of war between nations to deal with that treacherous danger posed by diffuse and globally operating (terror-)networks. Compared to the original version, this connection of hegemonic unilateralism with defense against an insidious danger mobilizes the additional argument of self-defense.

(...)

The Iraq war is a link in the chain of a global politics which justifies itself by claiming that it has replaced the unavailing Human Rights policies of a used-up world organization. The United States takes over as it were the mandate in which the United Nations failed. What's to be said against this?

Moral feelings can lead one astray, since they stick to individual scenes, to specific images. There's no way of avoiding the question of the justification of the war in general. The decisive controversy revolves around the question whether justification in the light of international law can and should be replaced by the unilateral global politics of a self-empowering hegemon.

(...)

Even if this hegemonic unilateralism were realizable it would still have side-effects which would, by its own criteria, be morally undesirable. The more that political power manifests itself in the dimensions of military, secret service and police, the more does it undermine itself - the politics of a globally operating civilizing power - by endangering its own mission of improving the world according to liberal ideas.

In the United States itself, the permanent regime of a "War President" is already undermining the foundations of the rule of law. Quite apart from the practiced or tolerated torture methods beyond its borders, the war regime is not only denying the prisoners of Guantnamo Bay the legal rights conferred on them by the Geneva Convention. It confers powers on the security services which encroach on the constitutional rights of its own citizens.

(...)

In 1991 the Americans liberated Kuwait - democratize it they did not. Most of all it is the superpower's presumptuous trusteeship which is criticized by its coalition partners, who are, for good normative reasons, unconvinced by the unilateral leadership claim.

There was a time when Liberal Nationalism felt itself justified in propagating the universal values of its own liberal order throughout the world, with military backing where needed. This self-righteousness does not become any more sufferable by it being ceded from the nation State to a hegemonic power. It is the very universalistic core of democracy and human rights itself which forbids its universal propagation by fire and sword.

The universalistic validity claim which the West associates with its 'political core values' - i.e. with the procedure of democratic self-determination and the vocabulary of human rights - may not be confused with the imperial demand that the political life-form and culture of a particular democracy--and be it the oldest--is to be exemplary for all other societies.

Of this order was the 'universalism' of those ancient empires which perceived the world beyond their borders - shimmering on a distant horizon - from the central perspectives of their own world-views.

The modern self-understanding is on the contrary marked by an egalitarian universalism which insists on the de-centering of each specific perspective; it requires the relativization of one's own interpretive perspective from the point of view of the autonomous Other.

It was American Pragmatism itself which made insight into that which was good and just to all parties concerned dependent upon a reciprocal acceptance of mutual perspectives.

The reason upon which modern rational law is based is not expressed in the validity of universal 'values' capable of being owned, exported, and distributed globally. 'Values' - including those for which one could expect global recognition - don't hang in the air; they become binding only in the normative order and practices of specific cultural forms of life.

When in Nasiriya thousands of Shiites demonstrate against Saddam and the American occupation, they bring to expression that non-Western cultures must appropriate the universalistic content of human rights from within their own resources and within an interpretation which can make a convincing connection to local experiences and interests.

For that reason, the multilateral formulation of a common purpose is not one option amongst others - especially not in international relations.

In its self-chosen isolation, even the good hegemon (presuming for itself trusteeship in the name of the common good) has no way of knowing whether the actions it claims to be in the interests of others is indeed equally good for all.

There is no meaningful alternative to the further cosmopolitan development of an international system of law in which the voices of all concerned are given an equal and reciprocal hearing.

The world organization has not as yet suffered irreparable damage. Since the 'smaller' members did not buckle under to the bullying of the larger ones, it has even grown in stature and influence. The reputation of the world organization can be damaged only by its own actions: if it should seek to 'heal' by compromise what cannot be healed.





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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. A lovely piece Sir.
Especially the last eight paragraphs or so that you cite.
:thumbsup:

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