Need help being reminded of the differences between the two parties

[Walt Starr]

Let's leave the issue of abortion out of this completely. At least as far as the rhetoric is concerned, we all know this difference.

So other than the abortion issue, what are the real differences? Serious discussion only, please.

[burrowowl]

1. Given the Dems want

a Free Speech Zone for the Boston Convention, I'm beginning to wonder.
See LBN for Boston Globe article.

[papau]

11. key Boston version of Free Speech Zones is that there will be many zones

Carol Rose, executive director of the ACLU of Massachusetts, said that if the preliminary "free-speech zone" is the only area protesters can use without fear of arrest or harassment, it will almost certainly be challenged in court.

"We don't want it to be a free-speech pen," Rose said.

"(ACLU)She said the ACLU will push instead for a range of areas, situated in such a way that delegates have to walk past them on their way into the FleetCenter.

Rose said she would like small groups of protesters to be allowed to rotate into the immediate vicinity of the FleetCenter, in the area convention organizers want to restrict to credentialed delegates, convention workers, and media. In addition, security fences should be transparent, so those holding signs outside can be seen and heard, she said.

"The more outlets for speech that can be created, the better the convention will go, and the fewer legal issues there will be," Rose said.

Burns said Boston police are committed to accommodating protesters. "You have to find a balance of doing it in the best way to maintain order," she said."

[StopTheMorans]

2. the environment

n/t

[Walt Starr]

5. A lot of Dems support drilling in ANWR

It looks like Kerry is going to throw ANWR overboard for the Teamsters endorsement too.

[StopTheMorans]

13. single issue Walt, if you try to say that most Dems

approve it, or an environmental policy APPROACHING shrub's, respectfully, this discussion would not be worth continuing...

[Walt Starr]

17. Just pointing out an area on the envirnoment where the differences blur

I'm not saying there are no differences, just that the distinction is becoming blurred. It's the blurring on these issues that allow the Naders of the world suck off votes.

[StopTheMorans]

25. the lines will always be blurred on some issues to some extent

that's the nature of the system, and a third party will never be a viable option b/c of it (i.e. they can try to differentiate, but once they do, the major parties will only adopt a part of their stance and blur it enough so that the party becomes irrelevant. see what has happened to any 3rd party in the past 100 years if you doubt it). however, that being said, there are substantial differences, and if you can't condone working within the system, then I would say you can't condone change at all b/c it will never happen otherwise IMHO...

[Walt Starr]

32. With Nader coming into the race

We have to enunciate the distinctions clearly and succinctly to be effective, otherwise enough votes get suckked off and we lose again.

[StopTheMorans]

35. you're assuming the same number of people who voted in the

last election will vote in this one, which i think is a false assumption given the record turnouts in every dem primary thus far. I would argue that Nader voters really don't matter in this election, b/c the Dem base and many independents (and some former repugs too) are so angered at * that they more than make up for the lost number of Nader voters.

[Walt Starr]

39. I think Nader is even more dangerous this time around than in 2000

Reapportionment is the reason I feel that way.

[HFishbine]

24. You cant be a single issue voter

and consider any of these single issues:

- ANWR
- Patriot Act
- Iraq War
- Equal Rights
- NCLB

[emulatorloo]

21. False -- Walt read this please

WOODRUFF: Senator, questions are already being raised about what you said to some of these labor leaders in order to get their endorsement. James Hoffa of the Teamsters said in an interview just this week, he said you told him that while you opposed drilling in Anwar the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge that you are, quote, he said, going to put that pipeline in and drill like never before, drill all over the United States to create more jobs.

KERRY: I think he -- I said exactly what my policy has been all my life. Which is I'm for the natural gas pipeline. Absolutely. I voted for the natural gas pipeline. I think it's important to build it. And so do most Americans. I'm also for the drilling in the 95 percent of the Alaska oil shelf that's up for leasing now. In fact, President Clinton put out the biggest lease in American history in that part of the shelf. I'm not for drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge and I haven't changed and I won't change.

WOODRUFF: You're saying there's no contradiction here?

KERRY: Absolutely none whatsoever.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0402/19/ip.01.html

[Walt Starr]

31. There we go

That's going to be hard to get into a sound bite that is as effective as "Vote for me because the two Republicratic candidates will just give you more of the same." But the distinction is pretty clear, and Kerry is doing a good job of defining the distinction.

Now we have to break the explanation down into an effective sound bite or it will never play.

[Cocoa]

30. that's your imagination

I won't be able to discuss the dems that only exist in your mind and your predictions.

The ACTUAL John Kerry, and almost all other dems, stopped the plan for drilling in ANWR.

[Walt Starr]

36. Nope, that's what I see on my TeeVee

With Nader entering the race, you'd better take these issues and the way the Democrats are painted VERY SERIOUSLY!

You have my vote, but Nader will suck off many progressive votes because the TeeVee paints a different picture. Enunciation of the distinctions both clearly and sucinctly is an absolute requirement this cycle, else, Bush wins.

[Cocoa]

42. don't belive everything Tweety tells you

it's not optional, you HAVE to question everything he says.

I saw that interview too, I saw how he tried to make it look like Kerry promised the Teamsters to reverse himself on ANWR.

But it's not true. Please don't propagate Tweety's anti-Kerry lies as fact.

[Walt Starr]

43. You aren't getting it

It's not what I percieve, it's what other progressives perceive.

You want to win? You had better get good at enunciating the differences clearly and succinctly so they play on the 24 hour news cycle. If not, Nader will suck off progressive votes and Bush wins.

It's as simple as that.

[Cocoa]

44. you're completely changing the question

now you've lost interest in real differences, and you're talking about perception. Whatever.

[Walt Starr]

47. Hey, you gave a perfect example of a clear distinction

Now you have to word it so it plays.

Nader is in the fight. We either get pre-emptive on the distinctions or we lose.

[sangh0]

58. Be honest

No one has changed the wqording of the clear distinction. It's two words "The environment" and neither word has changed. The only thing that changed is how you started out asking about the differences between the parties and then changed it to "Differences that progressives perceive" once someone responded with the facts

[Zomby Woof]

3. the difference between Scalia and Ginsburg

SCOTUS for starters, on issues ranging from church/state separation, industry regulation, the environment, and many more. Any justice Bush appoints can affect the rule of law for a generation or two - in the GOP's favor.

The recent conflict-of-interest flap with Cheney and Scalia should be a reminder of what is stake come November. There IS a difference as wide as the Persian Gulf between the two parties. SCOTUS is Ground Zero for these differences.

[BL_Zebub]

9. Kerry voted to approve Scalia

[Zomby Woof]

23. I am sure he regrets it

After the Bork episode, there was far more compliance in approving the nomination in order to minimize blowback upon the Democrats.

Besides, Kerry's vote to approve him (if you can find a citation, I would appreciate it) is NOT the same as coming up with the nomination. There is nothing unusual about a Senator voting for a justice they would not ordinarily nominate if they could so choose.

So my argument stands. Kerry would appoint far better justices than any of his GOP predecessors, the Scalia vote notwithstanding.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. I SO easily tire of this argument

Scalia's confirmation followed a very charged confirmation of Rehnquist as Chief Justice. The Supreme Court fights were NO WHERE near as contentious as they are now and the entire Law and Economics movement was NOT as well known NOR perceived to be the threat to democracy that it is NOW. The Federalist society was operating UNDER the radar then as their movement was less visible in Washington and MORE visible on law school campuses.

The ENTIRE SENATE AND HOUSE involved far more decorum then than it does NOW.

Scalia was vetted by the ABA. Not like NOW where the DAMAGE of the intent of the Federalist Society is now well known.

The difference between Republicans and Democrats is the difference between Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsberg and it isn't just fucking abortion...it's BUSH V GORE and many many other decisions that affect your everyday life from banking policies to fucking drinking water.

[Zomby Woof]

37. Thank You for the assist!

*Slam Dunk*! :-)

[Walt Starr]

38. Your explanation is no sound bite

"Kerry voted to approve Scalia" is a sound bite.

Starting to get the picture on how easily Nader will be able to suck progressive votes from the Democratic nominee?

BTW, I agree with you, but it won't play on the 24 hour news cycle.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. You requested serious discussion...you didn't request a soundbite

You want a soundbite?

Who trusts you with your body, your library card, and your vote?

Antonin Scalia or Ruth BAder Ginsberg?

Nader can pull this crap all he wants..you want a soundbite?

GEORGE BUSH WAS ELECTED BY A 5-4 VOTE. Ruth Bader Ginsberg wasn't ONE of them.

[Walt Starr]

45. You're getting closer!

Keep it up, that's the only way we can fight back against Nader and we had damn well better be pre-emtive about it!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Does it really need to get worse to get better? You'll suffer, Ralph won't

He's rich.

Like that one?

[Walt Starr]

51. EVEN BETTER!

You're getting good at this!

Can you put some of these up on the Kerry and Edwards blogs?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. I'm working in between posting...feel free to steal this

[kiahzero]

68. None of the current candidates would bull this kind of bullshit

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040220_1108.html

Now we're stuck with two nutjob fundie judges.

[Walt Starr]

69. We're stuck with them for less than a year, though

I'm glad he made his recess appoinment the same day it came out that Nader will make another run.

[kiahzero]

70. Yeah, makes for a good soundbite

"Maybe you weren't paying attention, but the same day you announced your run, Bush announced he was appointing an extremist, right-wing judge."

Or something like that. I'm no speech-writer.

[StopTheMorans]

4. keeping Social Security solvent (D) vs. privatization (R)

[MSchreader]

6. The most obvious one

The Democrats use a donkey as their logo; the Republicans use an elephant.

Beyond that,... I'd like a little enlightening myself.

Martin

[StopTheMorans]

7. affirmative action and human rights

n/t

[Slice]

8. If you have to ask,

then you can't be saved.

[Walt Starr]

12. Please address the message

Please leave the messenger out of this.

[Slice]

19. Like you've done?

I don't think so, Walt. Sorry.

[indigo32]

10. Walt

the Repukes really aren't that transparent... of course there are differences. If they had there way they'd privatize EVERYTHING (think Education,Medicare and SS), and steal what civil rights we have left. YES there IS a difference.

[JustinCredible]

14. The difference is

Social Freedom.

Abortion is but one part of that.

[Walt Starr]

50. Social Freedom makes a great sound bite

Excellent! That one would definitely play!

[EXE619K]

15. The Brotherhood of the elephant,

And the Party of the ass.

Desperate for contestants,

To take part in the farce.

[StopTheMorans]

20. neither particularly poetic nor true

n/t

[ShimokitaJer]

57. Ya gotta love Billy Bragg

And he knew the truth about the two-party system fifteen years ago. Why are we only catching up now?

[private_ryan]

16. if you need to be reminded nothing will convince you

Vote for Nader and let's give Bush 4 more years!

[Walt Starr]

22. Message please

The messenger is not fair game.

This is an important issue now that Nader is announcing. I believe this is an extremely important thread given the stakes.

[Slice]

29. yeah ok

the messenger is very fair game. Okay, Mr. 5%?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. I would just like to go on record as saying today Private Ryan and I

fundamentally agreed about something.

mark this date in your calendar....it's like Haley's Comet and rarely comes around.

[spooky3]

18. equal employment opportunity, affirmative action, balanced budgets,

fiscal responsibility, health care reforms, minimum wages, quality of public school systems, progressive income taxes to support infrastructure needs, and so on and so on.

while not all Democrats agree on every detail of every concrete proposal in these areas, they agree on general values to a far greater extent than they agree with the prevailing Republican values on these issues.

This is supported by many empirical studies in political science of congressional voting records for example. You can classify a representative or Senator with virtual certainty if you know a modest number of his/her votes on bills representing each of these issues. That high degree of classification accuracy does not happen very often in social science research.

[denverbill]

33. That's a pretty fair list.

I can't argue with most of those things.

Unfortunately, on the other side of the ledger, there remains NAFTA, WTO, the Caspian pipelines, Iraq, Israel, illegal immigration, corporate domination of govt, media consolidation, the war on drugs, etc.

You would think liberals and conservatives would differ on those issues. DINO's and RINO's apparently don't.

[Walt Starr]

52. The key is going to be downplaying the blurred distinctions

while playing the stark distinctions up.

[sangh0]

59. School vouchers, prayer in school, the Pledge

civil unions, Affirmative Action, unions, civil rights, missile defense, civil service protections for Fed employees, ...

[denverbill]

60. IIRC every single US Senator stood on the steps of the Capital,

and shouted out 'under God' whilst reciting the Pledge of Allegiance immediately following the 9th Circuit decision, and there was a unanimous or near-unanimous vote in the Senate rebuking the 9th Circuit. You can take that off your list.

[Walt Starr]

61. Yup, no distinction there

That's a guaranteed talking point from Ralph.

[sangh0]

67. It's funny how you started out talking about policy differences

and are now hiding behind sound bites

[sangh0]

62. 'Fraid not

One party pushes to have "under God" included, one does not

[denverbill]

72. Yes, they really showed us their balls on this issue.

Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., called the ruling "just nuts." Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., said it was "political correctness run amok."

Virtually the entire Senate showed up for a morning prayer Thursday to affirm that the United States is "one nation, under God." A nearly full House gathered moments later to recite the pledge, followed by a sustained standing ovation. A few House members then joined hands to sing the first line of "God Bless America."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/pledge_onhold020627.html

If this decision is not overturned, we will amend the Constitution. —Democratic senator Joseph Lieberman, Fox News, June 26

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0227/hentoff.php

The Senate voted 99-0 on Wednesday to condemn the 9th Circuit Court's decision that the Pledge is unconstitutional because it includes the words "under God," just hours after the ruling was made public. Sen. Jesse Helms, R-N.C., was in the hospital at the time and unable to vote.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56322,00.html

[lovedems]

26. The desire to protect the vulnerable in society.

and not tell them they chose to be poor so live with it.

[sadiesworld]

27. Dems can't get away with lousy economies and ill-advised wars.

[Cocoa]

34. Dennis Kucinich, John Kerry, ...

Russ Feingold, Dick Durbin, Ted Kennedy, Henry Waxman, etc. etc.

Nothing like these people exists anywhere in the GOP.

[Walt Starr]

40. True enough

And you're getting close to sound bite form. It has to play in the 24 hour news cycle to make a difference. With NAder announcing, this thing just got tons tougher.

[Fleshdancer]

49. It's the lack of conversations like this that scares me.

I don't think the political ideology has changed. I think the problem for both parties is that political ideology is now pretty much ignored. It's all about us winning and the other guy losing. Hell, you know is a sad SAD day for our party when this country is struggling through yet another EQUAL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND OUR "LEADERS" PREFER WE SHUT UP AND TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS. And why? Because apparently this whole Gays having rights thing just doesn't poll very well.

:grr:

There's nothing wrong with assessing and discussing the state of our Party and the direction it is going. And yet when I try, I get people who act as if I casted a vote for Nadar or Bush when all I want is to talk about what's going on. I just don't get it.

Who here is happy with Terry McCauliffe? Who here thinks he's a strong leader and has a clear vision for where the Democratic Party is going?

Who here thinks the DLC is a successful organization without Bill Clinton? Who here thinks the "L" in DLC really does stand for "leadership"?

Who here truly thinks their voice is heard and noted at DNC HQ? Who here does not feel left out?

If you're proud of the leadership in our party, happy with the chairman and the supporting Democratic organizations and you feel your voice IS heard, then I applaud you because you should be a very happy Democrat. But if you don't feel any of these things, then shouldn't you also have some questions that demand answers?

[Walt Starr]

54. You've pretty much summed up my reasoning

in starting this thread to begin with. Seeing Nader back in the chase woke me up to how easily his rhetoric ois going to, once again, play.

Even better for the SOB, he has the Iraq war to use and that's a damn tough one to overcome. The democratic PArty was wrecked in 1968 over the Vietnam war and is about to be wrecked again unless it gets pre-emptive in spelling out the distinctions.

[Fleshdancer]

56. We seem to be taking the 3 monkeys approach

hear no evil
see no evil
speak no evil

We can't keep blaming Nadar for our problems. Apparently it's real fun thing to do on DU, but at some point, our Party has to sit down and take some ownership on the fact that we are not united. Just telling someone they better vote for a Party who's only outreach to its members include pathetic mailers whining for more cash will not be enough. One can convince only so many people that voting their conscience is a very bad thing.

[nonconformist]

55. At the core, this is how they are different

Of course, not every member of either party will fit into this mold perfectly... but this is the basic difference:

Democrats believe that the government ought to play a significant role in society with the goal of protecting it's poorer and weaker citizens. However, they favor a much smaller role for social matters, believing that the government should not restrict individual freedom.

Republicans believe that government should play a minimal role in society, except to uphold traditional moral standards.

[htuttle]

63. Minority Leader Tom Daschle doesn't seem to think there's a difference...

As he is quoted saying today:

"I give the effort overall real credit," Daschle said. "It is a good thing Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. It is a good thing we are democratizing the country."

He said he is not upset about the debate over pre-war intelligence on weapons of mass destruction, an issue that has dogged President Bush as Democratic presidential contenders have slogged through the primary season.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=375973&mesg_id=375973

[Walt Starr]

64. The Iraq War is going to do more for Nader

than all of Gore's "wooden" responses in 2000 combined.

I see no way to win this year.

[htuttle]

65. I don't know about that...

I know a lot of people who voted Green in 2000. I'm in Madison, WI, and the party is very strong here (even does well in local elections).

Most local Greens I've spoken to are giving the Democrats a 'free pass' this time, due to the urgency of getting rid of Bush. Next time, however, forget it.

And I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people vote for the Democratic candidate in November, then turn around and start demonstrating against them in March if we're still stumbling around in Iraq at that time.

[Walt Starr]

66. I'll probably be doing that

and right now, I'm a registered Democrat (but not after the primaries).

[TNOE]

71. The difference:

It's taken me a few days to sort this out but I have come to this conclusion:

If there truly was no difference between the Republican and Democratic candidates, WHY did the Reichwing's Baker Botts law firm from hell work so hard to steal the election from Gore, in 2000? If there was 'no' difference, then why did they even bother to carry out the coup? And, the 'mini' coup in 2002, as we KNOW Cleland won Georgia, and they killed Paul Wellstone. There wouldn't be 500+ dead soldiers right now and tens of thousands of dead Iraqi's, and ENDLESS WAR and I don't believe for one second 9/11 would have happened under a Democrat, especially Al Gore.

I think people are going to understand this time that they have to vote for the Democrat to get Bush out and I think MOST of America wants Bush out. We will have to deal with other issues later - after the election.

This time many Americans will be placing a vote AGAINST Bush*.

[historian]

73. Dems dont offer...

...illiterate, ignorant buffoons to run for president. Going back as far as Nixon we've had Spiro Agnew, Reagan, Quayle and now this excrement in the white house. I think thats justification enough not to be a republican!!!