Clarify to me what's going on in Haiti and Venezuela.

[fujiyama]

I don't know too much about the situation other than the following:

In Haiti Arisitide has been forced out in a coup. He was democratically elected and popularly supported, though some say he's somewhat corrupt. The Bush* admin has supported the coup, though I'm not sure to what extent they were involved. I also know that the Clinton admin. went in and re-installed him in power when he was overthrown earlier. I also heard he's not good for US corporate interests.

In Venezuela, the Bush* administration tried to overthrow Chavez in a coup and from what I heard it was pretty blatant at that. Those opposed to Chavez are mostly the upper class...

Is this correct? What details am I missing?

[windansea]

1. Aristide = bad.....Chavez = bad

Bush = bad too!!

check the first few pages of LBN forum...there are plenty of threads on both subjects

[thebigidea]

2. I knew we could expect a detailed argument from you. Impeccable case!

but apparently Bush is good when he's against Chavez/Aristide, eh? Hurray, State Department! Go Noriega!

[hellhathnofury]

3. It's late and your not giving one either.

Plus your distorting for malicious intent.

There's plenty of stuff around here already.

[thebigidea]

4. Why, I never... Malicous?

Hurray for proponents of freedom & democracy like Noriega, Powell, and Bush - if ever there was an administration that could spot governments that weren't governing "effectively," its this one!

I look forward to the Bush admin identifying and disposing of other "problem regimes" as we continue hurtling through this fine New American Century!

(cue God Bless America, fade out)

[hellhathnofury]

6. Malicious...it's late.

Calling us names is so...third grade. :thumbsdown:

[thebigidea]

8. erm, what name did I call any one?

Who the heck is "us"?

I'm really confused here, as I'm just a simple fan of freedom, which has been denied to the poor oppressed peoples of that troubled region.

[hellhathnofury]

14. Us is the people who are less than enthusiastic about Mr. Chavez.

Your post is littered with comparisons of our Democratic beliefs and PNAC/Reagan.

Don't play stupid, I'll call you out everytime.

[thebigidea]

17. Democratic beliefs? The current Admin hardly shares them

I'm criticizing them - if a Democratic admin were in power, that'd be another story.

Do you really think that Noriega/Powell/Bush/Reich/etc are on the side of freedom, human rights, and democracy here?

Since when do I "play" stupid? I am stupid. Sheesh.

[hellhathnofury]

22. You call me names and then try to hide from accountability.

If your going to hurl false charges stand by them.

No, but the Carter Center and Barney Frank appear to have the same opinion. Chavez is no socialist saint, he's just another greedy dictator. Do you really think Chavez stands for those things either?

[thebigidea]

24. I didn't call you a single name, sir. If I did, go on and alert me.

" Do you really think Chavez stands for those things either?"

Its not my concern what's going on in his head, I just don't like the idea of MY country engineering coups. Something about a coup just kinda rubs me the wrong way, ya know?

[hellhathnofury]

31. No, you just make nasty little insinuations.

So it's not your concern what other countries are doing because they never have adverse effects on anyone else?

I'M OPPOSED TO A COUP! I BELIEVE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS WHICH THE RECALL ABIDES BY.

[thebigidea]

34. so what did you think of the coup that almost went through?

Did Carmona get a raw deal? He was a staunch supporter of freedom.

And what insinuations am I making? I'm attacking the policy of this Republican Administration.

Which just so happens to be one that supports coups. Am I right? Did this country NOT support the Carmona crowd before?

[hellhathnofury]

38. I don't back coups.

I don't oppose legitimate recalls when the pass the muster either. Do you oppose democratic action?

You know what your doing, it's a game and your playing it.

[thebigidea]

42. as opposed to your little game, yes?

"Do you oppose democratic action?"

Not at all! Now answer my question - did the US have a hand in the previous coup?

[hellhathnofury]

47. Did the US have a hand in that? Yes.

An active one? No. Chavez has enough enemies of his own.

Now you answer my question--is the recall not legitimate democratic action?

[thebigidea]

49. Bwhahaha

"An active one? No. Chavez has enough enemies of his own."

so what's a passive coup, exactly?

"Now you answer my question--is the recall not legitimate democratic action?"

Beats me. I'm not counting signatures - have the Carter people gone in yet? And yes, I've read their statements up to date, so you don't need to cut and paste them.

[hellhathnofury]

54. Good. Now we're on the same footing.

The recall is not a coup. It is legitimate democratic action that should be respected, and in my opinion encouraged as Chavez is on his way towards socialist dictatorship that violates freedom of speech, press, life and liberty.

[thebigidea]

59. meanwhile, we're IN a quasidictatorship that violates those freedoms

and seeks to violate the freedoms of those in other countries as well.

We should worry about our own backyard before going blundering into Venezuela with grand ambitions for "our" oil.

I mean, how obnoxious is that? Like we have some freakin' god-given right to have all of their oil and its somehow criminal if they take control of their own resources.

[hellhathnofury]

68. And here come's that tired old argument...

"look at yourself before acting in other places."

Again making the assumption that I support the administration.

We have an interest in the economic stability of the world economy, it's not hard to see what a threat to everyone Chavez could be if he wants too.

[camero]

70. oh come on

Venezuela is only 15% of our exports. It would hardly be a dent on the world market.

[hellhathnofury]

73. 5th largest supplier in the world.

You don't think he could make a dent?

[camero]

76. He's only withholding oil from us

and finding another buyer. But you certainly tell how the Bush Admin would profit from Venezuelan oil.

[hellhathnofury]

78. Which would destabilize our currency further.

[camero]

80. I think our deficit has more to do with that n/t

[hellhathnofury]

85. Weak dollar does too.

Buffets statements on that should be in some other thread in GD.

The more money we have sitting around the weaker it is.

[camero]

102. The deficit is causing the weak dollar

and the trade imbalance. The oil is a small part of that.

[thebigidea]

72. Chavez is a threat? BUSH is the one bombing people.

"Again making the assumption that I support the administration. "

Again being defensive about attacks on this administration, which does raise certain... concerns, eh?

[hellhathnofury]

75. No,

your trying to link me to the admin which is completely false. I don't back the coup, I don't back Bush.

[thebigidea]

79. yet you seem personally offended and insulted when I mock Powell/Noriega

[hellhathnofury]

83. You compared her views, which I'm in some support of to them.

Just give up on labeling me PNAC. I'm going to fight till the end.

[thebigidea]

86. Just give up on claiming that i'm trying to do that.

I'm attacking the policies of THIS administration, not you.

"I'm going to fight till the end."

Such bravery! Such courage in the face of invented attacks!

[hellhathnofury]

87. So then why attack the admin in response to her?

You don't reply to the OP, you replied to her.

[thebigidea]

92. because I'm a bad, bad person. Very very very bad.

I'm told that I will recieve absolutely nothing for Christmas this year because of it.

[hellhathnofury]

95. Well that's good to hear. I finally locked you into something.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hellhathnofury]

103. That's good to know you take something so serious in such laughter.

I think I need to be much meaner and realize that serious debate never takes place here.

[thebigidea]

106. am I to take your droning on SERIOUSLY? My goodness, why? Life's too short

"I think I need to be much meaner and realize that serious debate never takes place here."

It takes place all the time, but never with me.

And apparently, not with you either.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hellhathnofury]

15. Us is the people who are less than enthusiastic about Mr. Chavez.

Your post is littered with comparisons of our Democratic beliefs and PNAC/Reagan.

Don't play stupid, I'll call you out everytime.

[not systems]

9. Thank god for Bush protecting our oil...wink..wink...

otherwise your standard of living might drop.

Sometimes you just have to say yes to stealing from
the poor when the gas prices at the pump is at stake.

Right?

Is that accurate summary of you position?

[hellhathnofury]

19. Well...I apologize for knowing how the world works.

It doesn't run on idealism. Allowing Hugo Chavez to hold a large amount of the world economy hostage is not a realistic option. That's what he's threatening to do unless we let him subvert the Venezuelan constitution.

And again with the Bush/PNAC comparisons.

[thebigidea]

20. the only realistic option is REGIME CHANGE, right?

Fuck elections, this guy has to be stopped. Oil is at stake here, boys! Sound the alarm.

Isn't it cute to see Americans so concerned about the Constitution and Democracy of other countries? If only we had a little of that viligance for our own Constitution.

[hellhathnofury]

23. Oh god.

So the recall is unconstitutional and illegitimate?

What ever are you going to do when you have to stand on something other than insults.

[thebigidea]

26. I dunno, maybe open a small theatre or something

again, I don't see a single insult in any of my posts. I seem to be bashing the State Department, why do you take such attacks personally is beyond me. Care to explain?

[hellhathnofury]

33. Would you like being told your beliefs are neocon?

[thebigidea]

36. It would be absurd, because I have no neoconservative beliefs

But if it makes you feel better, you can call me a neocon. You already tried stupid, malicious, etc.

[hellhathnofury]

43. This isn't malicious?

"but apparently Bush is good when he's against Chavez/Aristide, eh? Hurray, State Department! Go Noriega!"

If that's not, I don't know what is.


If you read "misguided" in context it's very clear that it's in the context of distorting my position.

[thebigidea]

46. Well, he's supporting Bush's policies re: Chavez, Aristide

wouldn't that be um, kinda true?

[hellhathnofury]

48. Major assumption.

We aren't siding with Bush. We're siding with the Carter Center/ HRW/ and Barney Frank who have all criticized Chavez's handling of human rights, the Venezuelan government, and the recall.

[thebigidea]

51. yes, but that's also Bush's side, isn't it?

Pardon me if I'm a bit suspicious.

[hellhathnofury]

57. It comes from a rather different angle.

It's about systematically linking human and political rights to diplomacy.

[thebigidea]

61. and no administration is a better friend to human rights than the Bush Adm

[hellhathnofury]

71. Change the subject again.

I don't endorse either Chavez or Bush.

I'm an internationalist type of guy, you know Carter, Annan, Truman etc...

[thebigidea]

74. I'm sure Carter is real big on invading countries that threaten our econ.

Annan too. What was that big speech he gave, something about regime change being neccesary if rogue states threaten US oil supplies?

[hellhathnofury]

82. I don't support invasion or coup. I've said this 5 times now I think.

You yourself admit the recall is democratic and legitimate. Chavez is a dictator.

[thebigidea]

84. Never said the recall was legit - I have no idea, we need int. observers

"Independence from foreign intervention is not an absolute.
You break laws and yes there will be intervention."

That's not support for a coup?

You said yourself that Chavez is breaking laws, restricting liberty, freedom, etc.

Would this not lead to intervention?

If not, what would?

[hellhathnofury]

90. That's saying that if Chavez acts on his threats,

the UN and WTO would have some right to act.

Chavez makes a direct attack upon us. Expels international observers and brutally suppresses the opposition. And again not a coup.

[not systems]

93. "Chavez makes a direct attack upon us"

What are you talking about?

[I AM SPARTACUS]

111. expelling int'l observers, suppressing opposition is direct attack on us?

how?? and who is "us"???

[not systems]

89. Dictator? It is coming out your ears.

He is serving out a specific term that he was elected to unlike some presidents.

You have stretched language past the breaking point calling him a dictator.

Shrill is how I would describe your current tone.

[hellhathnofury]

91. So suppressing the press and your oppostion isn't the acts of a dictator?

What would you term his human and political rights record?

[not systems]

100. Better that what came before him and a good start.

I think that the improvements in economic, medical and political
access of the majority of the population is a solid record of
populist economic reform not unlike the steps take by FDR here.

FDR also had to withstand an attempted coup by reactionary
entrenched economic elites.

[thebigidea]

101. a damn sight better than Dubya's, that's for sure

[not systems]

69. Aha! Like one from the front and another from the back?

:spank:

[hellhathnofury]

94. Cute.

I'm pretty clear about my position. Yet I've never seen much of an endorsement for specific Chavez actions.:thumbsdown:

[not systems]

60. Is that the royal "we"? Who is down with your crew?

I have noticed you used "we" several times are you with a group of some sort?

[thebigidea]

64. yeah, I was going to comment on that...

groupthink gives me the shudders. I'm with Groucho Marx on that score.

[hellhathnofury]

96. Oy look at the top post.

This has been raging all day and you know there are several of us who aren't Chavez fans. Don't play silly games.

[wuushew]

25. Hussein was sitting on the world's second largest oil reserves

linking your argument to PNAC is a simple matter.

[hellhathnofury]

35. I don't believe in unilatterally invading other countries.

I also don't believe in letting dictators seize wealth hostage and then dictating demands to the democratic world.

Don't assume. It makes an ASS out of U and ME.

[wuushew]

50. Do you support the policy of assassination?

Because since 91 that has been the official policy. How is overthrowing or killing a head of state any less an affront to a nation's sovereignty than invasion?

Strange how we are not interfering in the affairs of so called "ally" states such as Pakistan.

[hellhathnofury]

105. I don't agree with our policy on Pakistan.

I don't support assasination. I don't endorse the coup. I do endorse the recall.

[ParanoidPat]

88. RE: "Don't assume. It makes an ASS out of U and ME."

No, don't worry, you're doing alright all on your own! LOL! :evilgrin:

[hellhathnofury]

99. I supposed to let insults set then.

[thebigidea]

104. well, you seem good at flinging them around yourself

[hellhathnofury]

113. Want to go quote them?

I believe I answered that somewhere in here.

[camero]

28. maybe that's just the kick in the pants we need

to get us off of our oil addiction. Also, I think there is something in International Law about the self-determination of nations? Ring a bell?

[hellhathnofury]

37. So because Hitler was elected he has the right to self-determination?

I'm sorry, when one country, especially a Chavez-type, threatens another he loses that right at least partially.

[thebigidea]

39. so you're gonna compare Chavez to Hitler?

Wake me up when he starts killing people by the million.

"I'm sorry, when one country, especially a Chavez-type, threatens another he loses that right at least partially."

You don't see the irony here? WE didn't threaten HIM?

What was the US involvement in the coup, hmmm

[hellhathnofury]

52. Independence from foreign intervention is not an absolute.

You break laws and yes there will be intervention.

If you don't think Chavez is threatening us I suggest you look in the LBN threads.

[camero]

55. aha

The pre-emptive war policy comes out.

[hellhathnofury]

58. So it is okay to violate human and political rights?

[thebigidea]

63. apparently, its ok to invade other countries and steal their oil

[hellhathnofury]

114. Again, I explained where I'm coming from and that's not it.

Don't persist with the BushCo comparisons.

[thebigidea]

116. I persist in discussing BushCo becuase BushCo is at the helm here

they are in control, you are not. Thus discussing their insane ambitions seems fairly reasonable. Let me know when you're running the State Department, and I'll change my dialogue.

[hellhathnofury]

120. Well...the Carter Center seems to be getting involved...

so I do have a dog in this fight.

[thebigidea]

121. "seems"? SEEMS? I'd say BushCo is more than just SEEMINGLY involved

[hellhathnofury]

125. So the Carter Center and OAS are not getting involved?

[camero]

65. and what rights are Chavez violating per se?

The process is going on. As to the article you point to he has every right to say what he said. If someone tried to bust in my home he'd get a punch in the mouth too.

[hellhathnofury]

119. Nice listing:

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[not systems]

122. Please comment on this...

I have been waiting for you position on the poor
human rights record of the people you are pushing
as the saviors from Chavez.

If you go to the human rights watch site that you have often
referenced and click 1993 you can read about the atrocities
committed by the people you are supporting.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/WR94/Americas-11.htm#P560_269853

...serious human rights abuses continued in 1992. They included arbitrary and excessively lengthy detentions, abuse of detainees, extrajudicial killings by the police and military, the failure to punish police and security officers accused of abuses, corruption and gross inefficiency in the judicial and law enforcement systems, deplorable prison conditions, and violence and discrimination against women. Police sweeps of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods resulted in increased incidents of extrajudicial killings and arbitrary arrests.

[hellhathnofury]

128. I'm pushing for an election administered by the international comm.

[thebigidea]

131. what would your response be if Chavez won again? Just curious.

[hellhathnofury]

138. If he wins a free and fair election I have to support him.

[thebigidea]

143. why?

If you think he's this horrible rights-abusing monster, why would you support him if he won another election? He's still a horrible monster, yes?

[hellhathnofury]

150. Because then the Venezuelans will have chosen their own fate.

When he goes full blown socialist dictatorship and his people suffer it's on them. He's still a horrible monster, but once that happens I think it's a safe assumption that the UN, OAS and CARICOM won't sit around and do nothing.

They elected Chavez on false pretenses.

[thebigidea]

154. so they didn't choose their fate the last time?

[hellhathnofury]

157. Not with Chavez in full view. His poll numbers aren't that good.

A recall election would seem to be 50/50 right now.

[thebigidea]

160. good thing we have you to tell us which elections are legit

The Carter Center should stop wasting so much time and money and just hire you, you're practically infallible!

[hellhathnofury]

162. Well the recall is legitmate...Venezuelan constitution allows for it.

do you think they knew what they were getting with Chavez? If he wins this there's not going to be another election, why would he?

[thebigidea]

163. That's interesting - so the first time you're elected, it doesn't count

John Kerry better keep that in mind.

[hellhathnofury]

167. Chavez isn't exactly doing what he was elected to do.

The recall is constitutional. We have impeachment. It's a check.

[thebigidea]

168. what a bizarre argument

what was he elected to do? Did he run it by you for approval first?

[hellhathnofury]

172. It doesn't appear he's going to transfer power.

He's going to seize the reins and then destroy them, the reins being democratic governance by Venezuelans according the constituion.

What do you think he's going to do?

[thebigidea]

179. now you've gone from advocacy to full blown prophecy

maybe its time you started a religion to lead the people of Venezuela against this horrible monster!

[hellhathnofury]

183. Alright. Fine.

What's your opinion on what Chavez will do?

I see a clear march towards dictatorship. What do you think?

Bearing in mind: http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

[thebigidea]

184. again, I'm not a psychic. You are. Tell us what else will happen.

And give some tips on the stock market while you're at it.

[hellhathnofury]

189. C'mon what are you afraid of?

This is what discussion is about. What do you think? Are you afraid to give an opinion?

I've been mocked, what's the worst that could happen?

[thebigidea]

190. Yes, I'm terrified of giving my opinions. Can't you tell? I'm very shy.

Call me crazy, but I kinda prefer to discuss the present without extrapolating fantasy scenarios about some post-apocalyptic future.

[hellhathnofury]

192. Answer the question.

What do you think Chavez will do?

It's disgenous to make me present my entire argument and then refuse to offer one of your own.

[thebigidea]

205. its ridiculous to ask me to play fortune teller, too.

I honestly haven't a clue.

[not systems]

181. Can I get lotto picks from you also?

What about WMD location services that would have come in handy last year.

I see a psych politics hot line in your future, NOT.

[hellhathnofury]

185. What's your opinion on what's going to happen?

Will Chavez let free elections happen in the recall or the one's that are due after that?

Is this not a reasonable place to discuss such things?

I've done all the talking. Put up.

[not systems]

133. And you will...

support the victory of the coup-plotters?

Why?

They had a terrible human rights record when they ran the place in the nineties.

I know human right are foremost in you concerns right after oil supply.

[hellhathnofury]

153. I won't support them either, I'll continue to push for democratic

governance which Chavez isn't really pushing for. I'd rather see a fair election where both sides have been exposed. Give them the chance to choose their leadership with everything in full view.

A recall does require signatures doesn't it? How many of those do you think are coup-types and not just people who don't want socialist dictatorship?

[not systems]

165. There is an election coming up with out the recall...

what is the rush.

Chavez is serving out a normal elected term.

The people who want the recall were against Chavez to
begin with and just want do overs like the Republicans
in California did.

You keep using shrill language like "socialist dictatorship"
what you are talking about is basically tax increases on the
rich to pay for education, heath and infrastructure improvements
for the majority of the population.

That is how democratic governance works.

[hellhathnofury]

169. Because Chavez isn't going to transfer power.....

not after the coup, not after the recall. Why would he? Why should he turn over what he thinks is his country? Why should he give up the countries $?

That dictatorship also would involve suppression of dissent, political and from the press along with complete hostility towards Americans.

[thebigidea]

170. as if that hostility wasn't warranted

[hellhathnofury]

176. Care to address my other points?

[thebigidea]

177. hard to do without predicting the future. That's your department.

[hellhathnofury]

dupe

[hellhathnofury]

187. dupe

[hellhathnofury]

188. Give your opinion.

I've posted a good deal of stuff on why I think Chavez will become a dictator. What do you think?

[not systems]

171. Post a link to your crystal ball supplier Mr. Precrime investigator.

:nopity:

[thebigidea]

174. He is Criswell... he knows... ALL!

28 NOV to 21 DEC 1980 - "A sudden release of gas from a large chamber"
causes cannabalism in Pittsburgh, USA. "Over one thousand flesh-mad
and blood-crazed men will wander the streets, suddenly attacking
unsuspecting victims".

1981 - Birth control is advanced to putting contraceptives in the water supply and altering electricity with "certain ionic particles that prevent conception".

11 FEB to 11 MAY 1983 - Female baldness due to "gaseous fumes
polluting the city's air" plagues St. Louis, USA. Husbands flock to divorce courts to separate from their bald-headed wives.

1 MAY 1988 to 30 MAR 1989 - "Clouds of an aphrodisiacal fragrance" cause uncontrollable lust across the U.S. "Many men will fragrantly expose themselves in public!".

9 JUNE 1989 - Denver, Colorado is attacked by "a strange and terrible
pressure from outer space, which will cause all solids to turn into a jelly-like mass".

[hellhathnofury]

193. Think about anything yet?

When considering your present actions you always consider what they'll result in. So what will Chavez do?

[thebigidea]

196. I predict food in pill form... pushing buttons to drive FLYING CARS!

Personal jet packs!

Hugo Chavez will land a plum role in an upcoming sitcom wherein the wacky "socialist dictator" tries to escape assasins, cute kids, and a wisecrackin' maid.

[hellhathnofury]

198. So basically you're all snarky comment's and no bite?

You either have decided your above me in that sanctamonious sort of way or you don't have an opinion.

Good for you. It'll carry you well in life!

[thebigidea]

203. pretty much, yeah. I am a comedy writer after all.

It would be pretty bad if I didn't specialize in snarky comments.

And now here's your cue to mock my humor, go!

Wait, better yet... I'll do it for you. I think I have a grasp on your style now, let's give it a shot.

[thebigidea]

208. Simulated Debate Version 2.0

cynicalSOB1: "If that's supposed to be comedy, then you should look for a new line of work."

thebigidea: "Well, things are kinda tough all over, this Bush nonsense has been bad for my career, as I'm now consumed by politics."

cynicalSOB1: "That's very nice, but what's your opinion?"

thebigidea: "About what?"

cynicalSOB1: "Don't play games with me, you're just MALICOUS. I'm an old fashioned Harry Truman Democrat that believes in human rights, freedom, and democracy."

thebigidea: "No doubt you're also a big supporter of things like oxygen, food, and shelter. Yawn."

cynicalSOB1: "Its not funny, Chavez is a socialistic dictator who is systematically depriving his people of rights!"

thebigidea: "The people who seem to be saying that are mostly affiliated with this administration, do you agree with Colin Powell?"

cynicalSOB1: "I'm not PNAC! Stop accusing me of being PNAC! I'm a Harry Truman Democrat, and all you do is accuse me of being PNAC! Don't you have an opinion?"

thebigidea: "I never called you PNAC..."

cynicalSOB1: "But you implied it!"

thebigidea: "I give up."

cynicalSOB1: "Is that what you're made of? I'd let you know what I really think, but I want to remain civil."

thebigidea: "Oh, you've been very civil thus far... practically High Tea with the Queen over here..."

cynicalSOB1: "Stop calling me PNAC!"

thebigidea: "But I didn't."

cynicalSOB1: "You did!"

thebigidea: "I give up."

night, all.

snicker.

[hellhathnofury]

180. Getting my links in order:

It's op-ed but it gives the sentitment.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/printout/0,13155,901030303-425841,00.html

[camero]

124. a pre-emptive invasion over nine people?

Should we invade Miami? Seems much the same went on there.

[Zhade]

178. Prove Chavez is doing that. Use credible sources.

You made the allegation, so prove it. If you can.

[hellhathnofury]

194. Human Rights Watch isn't good enough for you?

I'll dig up more if it'll change your opinion of Chavez at all.

[Zhade]

199. I'll look at some links from HRW, sure.

I'm confident of my ability to sniff out bullshit. Share some links, I'll check 'em out.

[hellhathnofury]

201. Bookmark this. Send me a PM. It's 230 AM.

I research better when I'm fully awake.

The HRW should be around this thread somewhere.

[thebigidea]

56. and you don't think Bush is threatening Chavez?

he doesn't have any justification, in your mind?

Chavez should be grateful to Bush?

Do you really think the President of Venezuela's number one priority should be foreigners?

[hellhathnofury]

62. No, Chavez's priotities should be...

1. The freedom and health of the Venezuelan people.

2. The stability and preservation of the democratic process in Venezuela.

3. Tranquility with his neighbors and the world at large.

Chavez isn't exactly stellar on all 3.

[thebigidea]

66. gee, could it be the world's largest superpower breathing down his neck

that's causing some of the problems?

Ya think?

Maybe?

[hellhathnofury]

117. Well you'd wonder why they're breathing down his neck...

[thebigidea]

118. do you really have to ask? Greed, Hubris, Arrogance.

Any other reasons you'd like to present in their defense?

[hellhathnofury]

155. and Chavez isn't those things either?

I think both regimes need to go.

[thebigidea]

156. Regime change begins at home, not in Caracas.

[hellhathnofury]

158. Well events have presented this opportunity...

to popularly denounce socialist dictatorship.

[thebigidea]

161. yeah, socialism is such a scourge

Whatsamatta, communism not scary enough these days?

Watch out, Europe! You're NEXT.

[hellhathnofury]

164. Socialist dictatorship is never good.

I think the USSR, Mao and Pol Pot have proven otherwise. Why should socialist dictatorship be allowed?

Sweden practices something very different. They have legit elections.

[thebigidea]

166. "Why should socialist dictatorship be allowed?"

I dunno, because you're not the one who gets to decide which governments are "allowed," maybe?

[hellhathnofury]

175. Well once that dictatorship is established...

no one has any say including the people of that country. We should always be for governance by the people. Dictators aren't about that.

[camero]

40. Hitler invaded other countries

I don't see Chavez doing that. I just see him trying to make his little hole in the wall a better place for his people.

[not systems]

30. What about respecting national sovereignty and purchasing oil...

on the market without destabilizing the government and
backing forces that have as a history of repression of the
majority of the population.

Get the oil the old fashion way buy it.

This neo-imperialist mind set you push is morally bankrupt in my opinion.

If you go to the human rights watch site that you have often
referenced and click 1993 you can read about the atrocities
committed by the people you are supporting.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/WR94/Americas-11.htm#P560_269853

...serious human rights abuses continued in 1992. They included arbitrary and excessively lengthy detentions, abuse of detainees, extrajudicial killings by the police and military, the failure to punish police and security officers accused of abuses, corruption and gross inefficiency in the judicial and law enforcement systems, deplorable prison conditions, and violence and discrimination against women. Police sweeps of poor, crime-ridden neighborhoods resulted in increased incidents of extrajudicial killings and arbitrary arrests.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

97. "Get the oil the old fashion way buy it." actually - the old fashion way..

...is more like "steal it like an imperial colonial power would"...

Which is, of course, what BushCo is apparently all about.

[hellhathnofury]

136. That's what we normally do. Buy it.

I'm not advocating for the opposition. I'm advocating for a free and fair election as established by the recall, if certified by the Carter Center.

[not systems]

144. Ok.

The opposition has some skeletons in its closet, literally.

So I am happy to hear that you are not advocating for the opposition.

[Sliverofhope]

77. The machinations

of peak oil, danger to us all.

www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

[hellhathnofury]

32. Want to explain that edit?

[thebigidea]

53. edit?

I was trying to make a ASCII mathematical equation with Bush, Aristide, Chavez, but the formatting kinda fucked up and I erased it.

Now I have to explain post edits to you? And you are?

[hellhathnofury]

109. Well...it is late and it's normally custom to add in a little note.

You've been around here. People bait.

[thebigidea]

110. normally custom to add in a little note? What are you talking about?

"You've been around here. People bait."

Whatever. This is the first time I've ever been demanded to explain why I edited a post in 3 years or so here. And it will most likely be the only time.

[wuushew]

7. Since you believe all Latin American governments to be corrupt

do you support the FARC's struggle against the government of Columbia?

Just trying to see if there is any ideology behind this.

[hellhathnofury]

10. I think this gives some of it:

Foreign Policy

“Americans deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and imminent, but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decade, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are not just issues of international order, but vital issues of our own national security.”

-John Kerry

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

[hellhathnofury]

112. No, FARC is not exactly very good on human rights front either.

Neither is the Columbian government.

Where's your ideology coming from?

[Zhade]

159. Plenty of lies by spreaders of misinformation like yourself, you mean.

NT!

[not systems]

5. We restored the death squads to power in Haiti.

Aristide was polling at 55% and the people now in power were polling at 8% last month.

Now he is held under guard half way around the world.

In Venezuela they have lots of oil and we want it and the profits
from it to go to our friends who happen to be a white minority
in a mostly Native South American country.

Needless to say this is unacceptable to Bush and some other white power advocates hanging around DU.

You have it about right.

I suggest seeing the film "The revolution will not be televised" to get an inside
view of the lovable fascists in the anti-Chavez camp.

[hellhathnofury]

11. Do we call you names?

"white power advocates "

--
Pardon our apprehension about dictatorship and concern for human rights/freedom

[thebigidea]

13. and who better than to share your concern for Freedom than Bush?

I'm sure his State Department is suited to the task at hand: ensuring freedom and human rights throughout Central & South America, just as it always has.

We have a proud, proud record of accomplishment there.

[hellhathnofury]

27. Enough beating around the fucking playground.

I'm a proud Democrat in the Harry Truman/ John F Kennedy/ Jimmy Carter tradition. You sir are misguided and insulting. I believe in international cooperation towards communal goals and if you ever suggest anything to the contrary I'll give you hell everytime you stick your head out of your hole in the wall.

[thebigidea]

29. I can tell we're going to get along just fine!

So again, what do we do? Regime change?

And again, I don't get why you seem to think I'm calling you names and insulting you. I'm attacking our government's policies - unless you're PART of that government and actively pursuing the "regime change" nonsense, why be insulted?

Are you Noriega?

Powell, is that you?

Bolton, can you hear me?

No? Well then calm the hell down.

[hellhathnofury]

123. It's just the systematic attempt to link...

any thing that would dare oppose Chavez to the coup and thus the admin.

Pardon me not taking kindly to being linked to PNAC.

[thebigidea]

126. Yawn. For the 32085385th time, when did I link you to PNAC?

why do you take criticism of our country's reprehensible participation in the coup as a personal attack?

[hellhathnofury]

134. Okay:

You do it here: Hurray for proponents of freedom & democracy like Noriega, Powell, and Bush - if ever there was an administration that could spot governments that weren't governing "effectively," its this one!

I look forward to the Bush admin identifying and disposing of other "problem regimes" as we continue hurtling through this fine New American Century!

(cue God Bless America, fade out)

here: the only realistic option is REGIME CHANGE, right?

Edited on Mon Mar-08-04 07:58 AM by thebigidea
Fuck elections, this guy has to be stopped. Oil is at stake here, boys! Sound the alarm.

Isn't it cute to see Americans so concerned about the Constitution and Democracy of other countries? If only we had a little of that viligance for our own Constitution.


ezmojason here: Thank god for Bush protecting our oil...wink..wink...

Edited on Mon Mar-08-04 07:49 AM by ezmojason
otherwise your standard of living might drop.

Sometimes you just have to say yes to stealing from
the poor when the gas prices at the pump is at stake.

Right?

Is that accurate summary of you position?

wuushew here: Hussein was sitting on the world's second largest oil reserves


linking your argument to PNAC is a simple matter.


ezmojason (1000+ posts) Mon Mar-08-04 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #19

30. What about respecting national sovereignty and purchasing oil...

Edited on Mon Mar-08-04 08:15 AM by ezmojason
on the market without destabilizing the government and
backing forces that have as a history of repression of the
majority of the population.

Get the oil the old fashion way buy it.

This neo-imperialist mind set you push is morally bankrupt in my opinion.


I AM SPARTACUS (1000+ posts) Mon Mar-08-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #30

97. "Get the oil the old fashion way buy it." actually - the old fashion way..


...is more like "steal it like an imperial colonial power would"...

Which is, of course, what BushCo is apparently all about.

------
So I was never called PNAC by either you or anyone else in this thread?

[thebigidea]

137. no, you weren't called PNAC by me a single time.

Now you're quoting OTHER POSTERS? I'm responsible for them, now?

I already said my goodbyes, but I couldn't resist peeking one last time.

Sheesh. You're still at it, aren't you?

Again - point out ONE instance where I call you PNAC.

JUST ONE.

Judges, can we get a ruling on this?

[hellhathnofury]

141. In reply to me:

Hurray for proponents of freedom & democracy like Noriega, Powell, and Bush - if ever there was an administration that could spot governments that weren't governing "effectively," its this one!

I look forward to the Bush admin identifying and disposing of other "problem regimes" as we continue hurtling through this fine New American Century!

---
That's so obvious.

[thebigidea]

145. yes, its obviously sarcastic. Point out one word that calls you PNAC

One.

I haven't.

Just admit it and move on.

[hellhathnofury]

200. Just keep moving the goal posts.

Cover. Cover.

Well...but it was sarcastic. LAME.

[bobbyboucher]

41. That's so rich!

What a crock of shit! You know whow you are and so do I.

[ParanoidPat]

108. Temper, temper, we'll have to give you a 'time out'.....

.....ROFLMAO! :evilgrin:

[thebigidea]

115. someone's feathers are getting a bit ruffled

this is cracking me up! Its a shame I started off half-serious, otherwise I would've gone into full-blown raving "You hate freedom!" mode.

[hellhathnofury]

127. It's a shame, that this is used to pass off as a semi-serious board.

But of course we can't actually debate the merits of Chavez government.

Why shouldn't my feathers get ruffled with the repeated insinuation that I support the admin and PNAC?

If it wasn't for warnings I would have gone alot farther.

[thebigidea]

129. hey, by all means. Go farther! Send it to my inbox, I'd love it.

I can tell you're just bursting with love, empathy, and compassion. Do your worst, dear.

Otherwise, seeing as I'm not going to ask you for the 327530750347503th time where I linked you to PNAC, I bid you a good night... err, morning.

I best be crawling back into my "misguided," "malicious," "stupid," "hole in the wall."

hugs and kisses,
me

(Ps. Viva Chavez! Snicker.)

[hellhathnofury]

135. I won't do it.

Because name calling never did one good thing and neither did being a smart-ass

[thebigidea]

139. but apparently you're fighting the urge, held back only by rules

Go on, I'm not the alerting kind. Tell me what you really think - I'm not holding anything back, why should you?

[hellhathnofury]

148. I have a fundamental problem with endorsing these tin pot

dictators that the left fringe of my party seems to love everyone once in awhile. There's a big double standard at play here that only get's brought up occasionally. Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge. I don't see Chavez as any different from so many African dictators who shrug off the deaths of millions.

I don't think we should tolerate human rights violations on the left or right. Torture, imprisonment, and genocide are very real things to me and my family.

[camero]

151. and China?

Let's just tell them also. It would make us look much better in the world sphere. or better yet Russia.

[hellhathnofury]

182. I'm on fan of Tianaman or what the Soviets did in so many place.

[thebigidea]

186. so why concentrate on Venezuela? China is much worse.

[hellhathnofury]

191. Because this is a thread about Venezuela if you haven't noticed.

Come up with an opinion yet?

[thebigidea]

152. erm, which millions of deaths did Chavez shrug off?

"I don't think we should tolerate human rights violations on the left or right. Torture, imprisonment, and genocide are very real things to me and my family."

As opposed to my family, where they aren't real concerns at all. Forget the fact that one half of my family suffered the Nazis then the Soviets in Poland, with a few gassed and a few managing to escape... we simply don't have the perspective your family has, which makes your opinion automatically BETTER than mine.

[not systems]

130. Why not comment on my post #30 or #122

you seem to avoid the topic at every turn then claim
this martyred for truth position.

[hellhathnofury]

142. I replied to both now.

[not systems]

147. noted.

:hangover:

[ParanoidPat]

132. Then people like you showed up....

.....:evilgrin:

So um do ya mind pointing out who first brought up PNAC? :shrug:

But now that YOU mention it.....:)

"If it wasn't for warnings I would have gone alot farther." about says it all I think!

Kudos to thebigidea! I haven't had such a good laugh in ages! :toast:

[thebigidea]

140. gee, I wonder who that fellow was who first mentioned PNAC... hmmm

who could it be, I wonder... hmmm...

[hellhathnofury]

146. You do in post #4

I look forward to the Bush admin identifying and disposing of other "problem regimes" as we continue hurtling through this fine New American Century!

---
HAH!

[thebigidea]

149. um, no. I don't see PNAC in there. Try post 14, yours.

Mine was a snarky comment about our glorious century, not an accusation of PNACitude.

[hellhathnofury]

195. "gee, I wonder who that fellow was who first mentioned PNAC... hmmm"

That wasn't the question you posed. Got an opinion yet on what Chavez will do come election time?

[thebigidea]

197. yeah, it was still you. Mine was a reference to the century

yours was a reference to the actual think tank.

the initials "PNAC" did not appear in my post.

But golly, they did in yours.

On that note, I'm bowing out - we're getting way too repetetive.

A good sign that this thread has passed its expiration date was your insistance that we argue about our respective visions of the future. I mean, really - what nonsense!

[hellhathnofury]

202. BULLSHIT!

You just abreviated the Project for a New American Century to "A New American Century."

Just keep moving the goal posts.

Your nothing but snarky responses and condescending accusations.

[thebigidea]

206. um, no. Reread the sentence.

what does it say?

[hellhathnofury]

204. I would never imagine that the current situation....

could effect the immediate future.

That's just to illogical.:eyes:

Everytime you bait me I'll carry through. I don't back down to snarky comments. You've got to bring some substance. You provided no clear argument and no links.

[thebigidea]

207. you've provided nothing but perfection in the role of a straight man

we should tour with this, develop it into an Abbott and Costello routine.

You ever hear about B'rer Rabbit and the Tar Baby?

[not systems]

16. Just pointing out the elephant in the room.

What makes you think I am referring to you?

I think you doth protest too much.

[bobbyboucher]

44. That's what he does.

In the old days, he'd be licking his wounds at FR.

[thebigidea]

67. ah, do tell... do tell...

[bobbyboucher]

81. Back in the day,

you could say what you meant without having to pretend.

[Tinoire]

12. The same in Haiti / If you need more, let me know

Bush Sr was behind the first coup against Aristide and it's the same people in Jr's cabinet who are behind this one.

Those opposed to Aristide are mostly the upper/business-class, members of the gun-toting Duvalieriste army that Aristide disbanded.

You can find certain members of the business elite right here: http://www.haitipolicy.org/gallery.htm cavorting with the likes of Roger Noriega. Andy Aipad is missing from this group but he, a tax-dodging owner of the largest sweat-shops in Haiti is also behind this coup.

The FRAPH rebels doing their dirty work are guns for hire & their plan is to re-establish the army that was protecting the elite & their mansions and cowing the populace into enslavement.



Aristide was not good for US corporate interests (though you have to really question the greed!) because he tried to raise the minimum wage to the princely sum of a $2 a day. If I say greed it's because already the businesses in Haiti pay 0 taxes (officially it's a 15-year tax holiday but they just get an extension, duty-free imports on equipment and supplies, and no restriction on repatriation of capital. Oh and plus, no OSHA, no unions (Bush's rebel goons are smashing the unions as we speak), no pesky overtime when forced to work over 12 hours/day, no health-care, no disability insurance... none of that pesky stuff... Sigh


===

<snip>

This move outraged the American corporations -- and their local lackeys -- who have for generations used Haiti as a pool of dirt-cheap labor and sky-high profits. It was the last straw for the elitist factions, one of which is actually led by an American citizen and former Reagan-Bush appointee, manufacturing tycoon Andy Apaid.

Apaid was the point man for the Reagan-Bush "market reform" drive in Haiti. Of course, "reform," in the degraded jargon of the privateers, means exposing even the very means of survival and sustenance to the ravages of powerful corporate interests. For example, the Reagan-Bush plan forced Haiti to lift import tariffs on rice, which had long been a locally grown staple. Then they flooded Haiti with heavily subsidized American rice, destroying the local market and throwing thousands of self-sufficient farmers out of work. With a now-captive market, the American companies jacked up their prices, spreading ruin and hunger throughout Haitian society.

The jobless farmers provided new fodder for the factories of Apaid and his cronies. Reagan and Bush chipped in by abolishing taxes for American corporations who set up Haitian sweatshops. The result was a precipitous drop in wages -- and life expectancy. Aristide's first election in 1990 threatened these cozy arrangements, so he was duly ejected by a military coup, with Bush I's not-so-tacit connivance.

Bill Clinton restored Aristide to office in 1994 -- but only after forcing him to agree to, yes, "market reforms." In fact, it was Clinton, the privateers' pal, who instigated the post-election aid embargo that Bush II used to such devastating effect. Aristide's chief failing as a leader was his attempt to live up to this bipartisan blackmail. As in every other nation that's come under the IMF whip, Haiti's already-fragile economy collapsed. Bush family retainers like Apaid then shoved the country into total chaos, making it easy prey for the warlords whom Bush operatives -- many of them old Iran-Contra hands -- supplied with arms through the Dominican Republic, the Boston Globe reports.

<snip>

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/03/05/120.html

================

Annotations

Private Interests and U.S. Foreign Policy in Haiti

Contested Social Orders, Vanderbilt University Press, 1997

U.S. Political Maneuvering Behind Aristide Ouster

Newsday, March 1, 2004

Why They Had to Crush Aristide

The Guardian, March 2, 2004

The Fire This Time in Haiti was U.S.-Fueled

Taipei Times, March 1, 2004

Veterans of Past Murderous Campaigns are Leading Haiti's Rebellion

New York Times, Feb. 29, 2004

Caught Between a Rock and a Bush

Information Clearing House, June 3, 2003

Is the U.S. Funding Haitian Contras?

Dissident Voice, February 2004

The United States in Haiti: Harvest of Hunger

Food First, Fall 1996

Aristide Backers Blame Bush Administration for Ouster

Boston Globe, March 1, 2004

Looters Step Over the Dead as Haiti Collapses Into Anarchy

The Independent, Feb. 29, 2004

Throttled by History

Counterpunch, Feb. 24, 2004

Haiti Rebel Says He's in Charge, Political Chaos Deepens

New York Times, March 3, 2004

In Haiti, Past is Prologue

Findlaw Legal Commentary, March 1, 2003

Bush Accused of Supporting Haitian Rebels

UPI, Feb. 27, 2004

An Insurrection in the Making

Madre Backgrounder, February 2004

Haiti as Target Practice

Counterpunch, March 1, 2004

[LowerManhattanite]

18. In a 220 lb. Pumpkin-Sized-Nutshell...

away--U.S. benignly looked the other way for decades as the Duvalier family treated the Haitian economy like their own private jellybean jar—taking all thetoastiess and leavingtheh nasties for the populace. Then, when Aristide came from the clergy like a shooting star and threatened to make amends for the moneyed class in Haiti mugging the poor, the people rose up and drove Baby Doc Duvalier out of office (and straight to France with untold millions looted from state coffers). Aristide's "socialist" ideas of redistributing the ill-gotten wealth of the upper class roused their ire and the ire of the first Bush administration, who branded him "unstable" then. He was deposed by a military Junta made up of the country's military elite coupled with remnants of Baby Doc's political co-horts and leftovers from his vicious thug-like police force, the Tonton Macoute. When the people again rise to challenge these louts, the U.S. protected them and spirited them away—some right here in NY (Emmanuel "Toto" Constant, the venomous leader oGRAPHPH, politicalal organization of well-connected string-pullers was set up here in Queens, NY with government protection from angry Haitian emigres). An interim regime was installed untitheeh Clinton administration, wheAristidesde returned with U.S. troops to lay down the law.

The already poor and ghetto-ized island nation tried to make do, but as Clinton found himself in deep trouble, focus and direct help faded from the island. When Bush got in, the same cold-warriors who served under his vomit-spewing dad still had it in for Aristide and immediately broke off relationscanceleded all aid and pressureinternationalsl lenders to play hardball with Haiti, citing election discrepancies when Aristide was re-elected. They effectively starved the nation of help and enough people (but not a majority) turned against Aristide to force the events of the last two months. Note how Aristide was shuttled off to the same area where this government had deposed African leader Patrice Lumumba assassinated covertly 40 years ago. I have a feeling that Aristide is not long for this world as the dollar goes a long way with lawless sorts in that region. Bad things happen cheaply there.

As for Venezuela's Chavez, hisituationon is similar to Aristide's in that he rode to victory on a wave of "people-power" and a promise to again, re-distribute ill-gotten wealth of the moneyed class. He has done just that and of course, pissed off those people who'd signed very lucrative oil deals with the U.S. (our 4th leading crude supplier). He too was branded unstable and a coup by those forces, again a combination of the military and one-time political players was backed by the U.S. and initially gloated over by Condoleeza Rice. But Chavez's backers respondebutbt beating back the coup leaders and re-installing him less than a day later—much to the coup leaders and the U.S. government's chagrin. With the new methods used by this country in Haiti having worked, they are being tried in Venezuela again, to finally shake Chavez loose. But he;s got a better and more organized support system than Aristide and the level of poverty there is nowhere near as bad as Haiti's. So, the desired "uprising" has not taken hold. Chavez is also not as naive as Aristide was and has engendered long-standing good will from a majority of the populace as he's actually begun to pull off the wealth redistribution thing.

But...our government trienonethelessss to take him down.

[Tinoire]

45. Welcome to DU!

It is a pleasure to welcome someone so well informed here!

You're quite right about Chavez. Whatever are Bush and his henchmen getting us into because of their greed?

Venezuela Leader Vows War if U.S. Invades
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=407061&mesg_id=407061

[LowerManhattanite]

21. In a 220 lb. Pumpkin-Sized-Nutshell...

The U.S. benignly looked the other way for decades as the Duvalier family treated the Haitian economy like their own private jellybean jar—taking all thetoastiess and leavingtheh nasties for the populace. Then, when Aristide came from the clergy like a shooting star and threatened to make amends for the moneyed class in Haiti mugging the poor, the people rose up and drove Baby Doc Duvalier out of office (and straight to France with untold millions looted from state coffers). Aristide's "socialist" ideas of redistributing the ill-gotten wealth of the upper class roused their ire and the ire of the first Bush administration, who branded him "unstable" then. He was deposed by a military Junta made up of the country's military elite coupled with remnants of Baby Doc's political co-horts and leftovers from his vicious thug-like police force, the Tonton Macoute. When the people again rise to challenge these louts, the U.S. protected them and spirited them away—some right here in NY (Emmanuel "Toto" Constant, the venomous leader oGRAPHPH, politicalal organization of well-connected string-pullers was set up here in Queens, NY with government protection from angry Haitian emigres). An interim regime was installed untitheeh Clinton administration, wheAristidesde returned with U.S. troops to lay down the law.

The already poor and ghetto-ized island nation tried to make do, but as Clinton found himself in deep trouble, focus and direct help faded from the island. When Bush got in, the same cold-warriors who served under his vomit-spewing dad still had it in for Aristide and immediately broke off relationscanceleded all aid and pressureinternationalsl lenders to play hardball with Haiti, citing election discrepancies when Aristide was re-elected. They effectively starved the nation of help and enough people (but not a majority) turned against Aristide to force the events of the last two months. Note how Aristide was shuttled off to the same area where this government had deposed African leader Patrice Lumumba assassinated covertly 40 years ago. I have a feeling that Aristide is not long for this world as the dollar goes a long way with lawless sorts in that region. Bad things happen cheaply there.

As for Venezuela's Chavez, hisituationon is similar to Aristide's in that he rode to victory on a wave of "people-power" and a promise to again, re-distribute ill-gotten wealth of the moneyed class. He has done just that and of course, pissed off those people who'd signed very lucrative oil deals with the U.S. (our 4th leading crude supplier). He too was branded unstable and a coup by those forces, again a combination of the military and one-time political players was backed by the U.S. and initially gloated over by Condoleeza Rice. But Chavez's backers respondebutbt beating back the coup leaders and re-installing him less than a day later—much to the coup leaders and the U.S. government's chagrin. With the new methods used by this country in Haiti having worked, they are being tried in Venezuela again, to finally shake Chavez loose. But he;s got a better and more organized support system than Aristide and the level of poverty there is nowhere near as bad as Haiti's. So, the desired "uprising" has not taken hold. Chavez is also not as naive as Aristide was and has engendered long-standing good will from a majority of the populace as he's actually begun to pull off the wealth redistribution thing.

But...our government trienonethelessss to take him down.

[Zhade]

173. Read Greg Palast's dispatches from Caracas. Award-winning stuff.

I'm sure you've heard of Palast. Amazing investigative journalist.

Here are all the articles on his site that came up under a search for 'Venezuela':

http://www.gregpalast.com/searchresults.cfm?searchtype=columns&keyword=Venezuela&option=Search

It's very informative, and very good reporting.

[Moderator]

209. Locking

This is a total flamefest.