Bipartisan Bonesmen

[PsychoDad]

I'm sure you'll love the source...

Bipartisan Bonesmen
by William F. Jasper

The two leading contenders for the U.S. presidency are both members of Skull and Bones, one of the oldest secret societies in America. Why is this not a major election-year issue?

Mr. Russert: You both were members of Skull and Bones, a secret society at Yale. What does that tell us?

Senator Kerry: Not much, because it’s a secret.

— Meet the Press, August 31, 2003

Mr. Russert: You were both in Skull and Bones, the secret society.

President Bush: It’s so secret we can’t talk about it.

— Meet the Press, Taped on February 7, 2004

More here:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/03-08-2004/bonesmen.htm

[Dogmudgeon]

1. Consider the source ...

The New American is a John Birch Society affiliated magazine. It is heavily burdened with that philosophy.

For instance, each of the quotes -- which TNA reports as being serious -- were wisecracks along the lines of "I didn't inhale".

Skull and Bones is a frat for rich kids who prefer public masturbation to public spanking as an initiation rite. If you're looking for conspiracy, Phi Beta Kappa has a much richer history of turning out subversives.

--bkl

[parasim]

2. Uhhh... ok...

So, if the question had been, "You were both secretly members of the Nazi Party, what does that tell us? and the answer was "Not much, since it's a secret."...

or "The club you were in at Yale admitted to disrespecting Native American burial grounds, do you think that is a harmless youthful indescretion? and the answer was "It's a secret, can't talk about it"...

You would have no problem whatsoever with those answers?

[Dogmudgeon]

3. Another Nazi-crier!

That didn't take long, did it?

Skull and Bones = Nazi Party? I think you need to check into what the Nazis were all about. I don't recall any Bonesmen who led Lodge 322 into racial holy war against non-Aryans. In fact, I don't recally any Bonesmen who committed murder in the name of their secret occult knuckleheadhood.

I do believe there is a matter of perspective, which you have surrendered.

And what does your invocation of Der Führer tell us? Simply, that you've lost control of your argument and are prepared to announce a win for yourself on "moral" grounds.

As for the other issues you brought up, I'll let you try to link me to the Communists, the Fascists, Clear Channel, Amway, and the Elders of Zion so I know exactly what kind of fantasy you're having thinking that you can read my mind.

--bkl

[parasim]

4. My apologies...

I apologize if my inquiry inadvertantly linked you to the Nazis or anyone else.

I didn't say that S&B = Nazi party. Prescott Bush established that perception. I only asked if the answer to a hypothetical question like that was acceptable to you.

Is it too much to ask a politician to answer what many consider a serious question with an honest answer, not "It's a secret."?

As far as I am concerned, S&B and their defenders will only stoke the conspiracy theory fires if they continue to give evasive answers to these questions.

Many of us are tired of Cheney-style politics.

[Dogmudgeon]

6. I may have also jumped the gun, but ...

... here is what I think the core of the S&B issue is --

"It's a secret"

"I didn't inhale"

"'Look for the Union Label' was a lullaby around our house"

Bush also made light of the secrecy of Skull and Bones.

These are all gags. I heard and/or read the original versions of each of these quotes, made sure I heard or read the surrounding context, and there is no mistaking them -- they were all said tongue-in-cheek. Even Bush's remarks, and I have a low opinion of him. A lot of people think that Skull and Bones is some power-wielding conspiracy when it's a really only a frat.

It's like accusations about the Jewish Conspiracy or the Humanist Conspiracy. A lot of Jews and American Humanist Association members were left scratching their heads over those. Answer it with a joke, and people think you're not just involved, but you're running the local cell; answer it honestly without humor, and they think you're lying.

Most fraternities come from 18th and 19th century secret societies, many of which were established to shield their members from legal prosecution under religious pretexts -- even as late as 1900, people were being imprisoned for heresy and blasphemy. These societies were popular for a time, and then their time passed. Unfortunately, a lot of people still think that they have more influence than simply being social clubs.

The Masons, the Prieure de Sion, the Order of the Eastern Temple and the Thule Society are examples of non-fraternity secret societies. The Prieure de Sion is supposed to have been founded by Jesus after he survived crucifixion; it's also supposed to be fascistic, yet French radical Jean Cocteau was its grandmaster for some years. As for the Masons, the idea still circulates that there is a Masonic (or Knights Templar) conspiracy -- it's been making the rounds since the 11th century and cost medieval French social reformer Jacques deMolay his life in 1307. (And wouldn't you know it, there is a DeMolay Society for teenagers!)

Prescott Bush's links to the Nazis were forged in the pre-WWII conservative business climate; Skull and Bones was entirely besides the point. Many Bonesmen were actively anti-Nazi, liberal, and even radical in their politics. As far as I know, there was only one avowedly fascistic secret society, the Thule Society.

I find myself in the awkward position of defending frats. The reality is simpler -- frats are social clubs. Many of them are pretty disgusting, but that's a recent thing. The organizations that empower hatred are based on money and power. The frats' primary negative influence is limited to establishing elitism, which many of the members reject anyway. Similarly, trash-talk about women, smoking cigars, lighting farts, drinking heavily and telling dirty jokes may have their "charm" for a few years, but almost all frat brothers leave them behind, though they may keep several friendships.

If someone holds Kerry's feet to the S&B fire, they are likely to be disappointed. The worst things the Bonesmen do seem to be limited to sitting butt-naked in a coffin and wanking while talking about one's sex life. The issue of Geronimo's remains should be investigated (and any remains found should be returned to the rightful heirs, whether it's Geronimo or not) but those revelations likely came as a surprise to most Bonesmen even a few years younger than stalwart young Prescott. ("You mean the skull thing was real? Yecch!")

The election will give people who are concerned about S&B an opportunity to have their say -- and S&B the opportunity to clean house. If it bugs you, you should push for it, and I really do mean that. But don't mistake Kerry and Bush being birds of a feather. Kerry's entire adult life is more of a testament to his integrity (for good or bad) than his year as a Bonesman.

Hopefully this has converted some of the heat of earlier posts into light.

--bkl

[parasim]

7. thanks

for actually being civil when discussing this. Usually questioning of the Bonesmen just incites hostility.

As for "It's a secret" being a "gag"... well, that explanation just doesn't cut it with me. First of all, I always make sure to consider the context surrounding a politician's statements. Meet the Press is hardly a late-night comedy show. (Although I certainly would rather have Jon Stewart ask the question, because I'm convinced he would have pressed the issue a bit more than Russert did). We're not talking the Gridiron club dinner here. Bush was being asked some pretty serious questions that demand answers and his glibness on the Bones issue was just infuriating.

As for Kerry being the same as Bush, well, I'm still learning about him, but from what I've seen, he seems to be a pretty decent guy. Smart, articulate, not a whole lot of charisma (imho), but seems to be charming enough. Pretty much opposite of Bush in most ways. (thank God for that) However, his secrecy on the S&B issue puts a huge checkmark in the "cons" column for him, as far as I am concerned.

Of course, you probably know better than I (since apparently you're a Bonesman yourself, otherwise how would you know these "facts" about S&B?) but I'd venture to say that Kerry considers himself a lifelong Bonesman, otherwise why the secrecy?

btw, the issue of Geronimo's skull to many Native Americans has nothing to do with yuckiness, but everything to do with disrespecting something they hold quite sacred.

[Dogmudgeon]

8. A few points

1. I'm not a Bonesman. I've never liked the idea of frats, though most of the sorority girls I've met have been a lot cooler than their male counterparts. Most of the information I have is freely available both on the net and in several books that have been written about S&B, from pro- and anti- conspiracy viewpoints.

2. The issue of Geronimo's remains is important, but can't be blamed on every Bonesman. It's pretty easy to get bodily remains on a big campus, and any fool can say, "This is Geronimo" or "This is ____". And it would be a "Yuck!" event for many Bonesmen if it was so proven. It's unbelievable, but if evidence exists that Prescott Bush and his buddies stole it (and there probably is), they deserve condemnation and Geronimo's decendants and/or nation should get the remains back, as well as an apology from the Grand Pubah or whoever holds the keys to Room 322.

3. I still maintain that the remarks about secrecy were dry humor, but even if they weren't, the questions about S&B were in a gray area between public and personal, and would have been awkward. How does one answer it? Besides, if I swore an oath, even as a kid, to keep a secret, I'd be hesitant to spill the beans even years later. That's just a common human response. But I hope it becomes more of a public issue -- for the paranoia factor alone demands it be addressed -- but it's not inconceivable that any Bonesman would try to brush it off with a glib remark and a smile.

The same things happen when you try to find out the "secrets" of the Masons. The higher degrees are well-reported, but no Mason will "betray the secrets of the Lodge", which means nothing about the degrees above the third. The first three Masonic degrees are public, based on fundamental philosophical and moral concerns.

Incidentally, Kephra, one of the long-time DUers and an activist embarking on a career in political journalism, is a newly-accepted member of the Masons, and could probably point you to better sources than I could. He is also quite well educated in matters of gnostic lore and secret societies, and he probably has different takes on the subject, too.

If Kerry -- and possibly Bush, too -- gets pressed about his Skull and Bones activities, they may be more forthcoming. As I said, I think that if S&B gets to have a good housecleaning, it will set a lot of peoples' minds to ease. Secret lodges have not been key players in politics since around the time of the American Revolution, and there's been no evidence that they have been flexing their muscles any time since then. They run on elitism and mystery, and leave the sleight-of-Constitution and treason to the businessmen.

If I sound dismissive of the Skull and Bones issue, it's because I don't think it's a big deal. It's just another forum for elitism, which is the real big deal, and far transcends S&B.

Yep ... this has turned out to be an enjoyable exchange. I've also been having a jolly good "rant" about Mars. But if I suddenly disappear between tonight and the end of the week, it means my upcoming ISP switch has hit a bump. Now, if you want to talk about conspiracies, we can start with Comcast! :)

--bkl

[parasim]

9. Indeed...

...this has been an enjoyable exchange. I really do appreciate your responses to these issues. It is somewhat tiring to always just being labelled a tinfoiler when I bring them up.

In reply to your last remarks:

1. My mistake on thinking you were in S&B. Looks like you've been reading much of the same stuff that I have. Since I have very little regard for the Fourth Estate, anyway, I sometimes tend to give the benefit of the doubt to sources one typically wouldn't.

2. I am fully aware that the issue of Native American remains as plaything is not exclusive to S&B. I also know that anybody can say they have _'s skull or whatever. Although I'm skeptical that any Bonesman would have a "Yuck event" at the thought of the skulls being real. I mean, the entire club's theme seems to be about death and apparently their "tomb" as they call it is chock full of 'em. I agree, they absolutely should come clean and apologize and make amends to the tribes offended by these immature acts.

3. You touched on what my main concern is here and that's elitism. Ever since I attended a dinner at the Bohemian Club in SF and learned about the Grove, I've been repulsed by the notion of powerful people being members of secret clubs. Swearing an oath as a kid and the Oath of Office are quite different. I would expect any public servant to denounce such clubs.

Maybe that's too much to ask, I dunno. But between Cheney's energy meeting secrecy, Ashcroft's secret police and Bush laughing off S&B as well as everything from the CIA outing to the 9/11 investigation, paranoia seems to be the order of the day. I for one, will continue to call them on these issues. It's just too bad that it seems we now have to make a choice between two avowed elitists to be leader of the free world.

Thanks again, bkl, for hearing me out and I certainly will be on the lookout for threads with Kephra as I am continually interested in honest debates about these issues. Good luck with your ISP switchover.

- parasim

[rman]

5. simply the fact that it's secret,

a secret meeting group of all very influential people, makes me wonder what it is they talk about that we aren't supposed to know. It wouldn't be that they talk about issues of national and inernational importance, would it?
At least in case of the Bilderberg group it is known that these people do talk about such issues. Issues that are supposed to be talked about by our elected representatives, who are supposed te be accountable to us. Instead a majority of these secret society people are not elected representatives, and they refuse to be held accountable - after all, it's secret. Yet they decide on things that affect the lives of billions.

That is why these secret societies are a problem.

If we ever come around to exposing any grand conspiracy, half of the evidence (secrecy) is easily provided.