So did our errr...... Cut and Run in Viet Nam save American lives?

[trumad]

Or should we have stuck around a little longer to fix the place?

[sangh0]

1. After we left Viet Nam

Pol Pot was able to take over in Cambodia. Let's just say it wasn't pretty, but you can guess that'll be the result when the leaders goal is to return to "Year Zero" YIKES!!!

I wonder what year the religious Iraqis want to return to

[trumad]

2. So there's a Pol Pot in Iraq?

I thought that was Hussein?

[sangh0]

6. I've got a suspicion

there are several Pol Pot's in the area.

Like Pol Pot, many Islamic religious leaders speak of an earlier period of glory. For Pol Pot, it was "Year Zero". For Islamicists, it's the Caliphate.

[trumad]

8. Pol Pot killed 2 million Cambodians

I don't think there's one in Iraq... Pol Pot made Saddam look like Mother Teresa.

[sangh0]

16. Well, if you want count the bodies

you're probably right, but I suspect neither you nor I would be pleased if one of them kills only 200,000.

My point is not that there is definitely someone there who is as bad as Pol Pot or Saddam. I just don't think this is as simple as "Stay, bad. Leave, good"

Whatever we do, there are consequences, and at this point, none of those consequences are too pretty.

[Aidoneus]

7. that is a misleading correlation

Pol Pot's people were able to take over only after American aggressors destroyed the existing order, partly by bombing the country and partly through use of ARVN mercenaries to invade. Pol Pot's people were actually enemies of the socialist revolution in Vietnam and later were backed by the US gov't.

[bicentennial_baby]

14. Thank you

You phrased it much better than I would have.

[Bridget Burke]

15. Quick Review of Cambodia/Vietnam (thanx Frontline)

1) Our B-52 bombing of Cambodia may have been a recruiting tool for the Khmer Rouge. (Kissinger didn't think so; you may choose to believe the good doctor.)

2) The Khmer Rouge siezed Phnom Penh two weeks BEFORE the fall of Saigon.

3) The Khmer Rouge were driven from power in 1979 by: the Vietnamese.

4) This was news to me: "After Vietnam had invaded Cambodia and set up a new government, the ousted Khmer Rouge leadership, including Pol Pot and Nuon Chea, retreated to the jungle along the Thailand-Cambodia border. Instead of becoming pariahs, they continued to play a significant role in Cambodian politics for the next two decades. The Khmer Rouge would likely not have survived without the support of its old patron China and a surprising new ally: the United States. Norodom Sihanouk, now in exile after briefly serving as head of state under the Khmer Rouge, formed a loose coalition with the guerillas to expel the Vietnamese from Cambodia. The United States gave the Sihanouk-Khmer Rouge coalition millions of dollars in aid while enforcing an economic embargo against the Vietnamese-backed Cambodian government. The Carter administration helped the Khmer Rouge keep its seat at the United Nations, tacitly implying that they were still the country's legitimate rulers."

www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/cambodia/tl01.html

[sangh0]

17. A few points

Someone above mentioned that the US had destroyed the existing order in Cambodia, which is why Pol Pot was able to take over. That is true, but the same thing can be said of Iraq. We have destroyed the existing order, and if we leave, someone bad can take advantage of that.

1) You could say the same about our bombing and occupation of Iraq. I think our occupation has been as much a recruitment tool as our bombing of Cambodia

2) Two weeks before the fall of Saigon was AFTER we had pulled out, IIRC.

3) True

4) Also true. We can thank a Democrat, Stephen Solarz, for our financial support of Pol Pot. Incredibly disgusting

[leftofthedial]

26. do you think the Saudis or Iranians or Kuwaitis

will commit Pol Pot-style genocide when we leave?

Not even the Turks will.

Iran and Saudi Arabia are already at "year zero."

[DenverDem]

3. We couldn't "fix the place".

We only succeeded in finally FUBAR.

When will we learn that WE CAN'T "FIX" THE WORLD so that corporate globalists can exploit without resistance from the people they are stealing resources and labor from?

[trumad]

4. Bingo

Great post

[The Traveler]

13. You got it right.

History indicates whenever we barge in and blow things up in an attempt to impose our system on other people, the situation we create is inevitably worse than the one we went in to fix. Iraq may turn out to be different. I don't believe it, but it might.

[DenverDem]

18. Iraq is not different.

Things are already worse than when we kept Saddam in power.

The depleted uranium all over the country will make it a horror show for generations.

[Desertrose]

19. right on...

who are we to think we can "fix" everyone and everything to *our* standards...or IOW... so that corporate globalists can exploit without resistance from the people they are stealing resources and labor from

Peace
DR

[matcom]

5. saved a ton of Vietnamese lives

i'll betcha

and i KNOW it saved US lives

[Sandpiper]

9. What exactly would we have fixed?

Our only goal in Vietnam was propping up an unelected, undemocratic puppet government in South Vietnam. The US opposed the national elections in Vietnam outlined by the Geneva Conference following the French withdrawal, because we knew that Ho Chi Minh's communists would have won handily.

Our cause in Vietnam was not just, our official justification for going in was bogus, and most of the harm suffered there could have been averted had we never gotten involved.

Hanging around in Vietnam would only have added more names to the big black wall in DC.

[DenverDem]

10. Deja vu

all over again.

[trumad]

11. propping up an unelected, undemocratic puppet government

Iraqi National Congress? <snarf>

[Sandpiper]

12. Bingo

n/t

[dogman]

20. There is no comparison.

In Iraq we have a completely different dynamic. Viet Nam was a surrogate for superpowers playing war games. In Viet Nam the tribesman had no where to go for support. In Iraq the Kurds have connections to Syria, Turkey, Iran, and across the 'stans. There are Sunnis and Baathists in Syria. There are Shias in Iran. Saudi Arabia and Jordan will destabilize. B$$$ has a mess that could more easily lead to chaos and world war. It is beyond a question of cut and run to save American lives. This is a problem the US created with our great coalition. As Wes Clark pointed out last night, there is no military solution. This requires a political solution. Our problem is this was planned by PNAC to create a new world dominated by imperial USA. We must straighten out our situation at home. The problem with that is both time and the question of these fanatics seizing permanent control of our country, using terrorism as an excuse to suspend elections.

[sangha]

22. That was a very good analysis.

IMO, it's also important to note that the "importance" of Viet Nam to our national security was geographic in nature, while in Iraq and the Middle East, our interest (and the world's) is in oil.

[NoPasaran]

21. Yes

I am convinced we would still be there today and there would still be light at the end of the tunnel.

[The Lone Liberal]

23. Go look at that GD black wall and then tell me we cut and ran!

The names that I know on that wall didnt cut and run.

[greatauntoftriplets]

24. I am typing a response to you with a surplus piece of the stone...

...that went into that GD black wall. It is very precious to me, and it is telling me that no one cut and ran. This piece of stone is one of my prized possessions.

[spanone]

25. I think what, 60,000 dead is quite enough.