Rumsfeld Kicked Ass and Took Names

[markses]

It is as simple as that.

He heaped contempt on anyone that questioned him sideways. He punked Pryor something terrible. He made even Snowe look like a quivering coward. He preened and shouted and eye-rolled and generally took the position of indignant victim. He won, and that hands down. It was a massacre, with our so-called Senators cowering. Only Mark Dayton really dared to challenge him, and by that time it was well and over.

Anyone who thinks Rumsfeld will resign is nuts. He just pumped out his chest and said "You want war, bitches. You got it." And he won this battle.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

1. Were you watching the same hearings???...

Kennedy and Dayton killed Rummy...and Rummy was looking for a way out.

[markses]

2. I was

And you're wrong.

[KissMyAsscroft]

8. Well, define "winning"

If he is a liability for Bush at the polls, is that really a "win"

I don't think anyone really thinks he will resign, and I doubt anyone besides us was watching these hearings.

So I don't think it is much of a win, either way.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Oh? Hmmmm.

[Oddman]

89. Rummy lost big time . . .

I didn't think he would resign, but now I think he will . . .

[malatesta1137]

3. If Rumsfeld won.

Humanity lost. I hope he stays, we need this torture story to stay for months.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

11. If he stays - we win and if he leaves we might win because he might spill

the beans.

[hippiechick]

60. he won't spill ...

ever. He's a BFEE/PNAC loyalist to the end.
:hippie:

[aquart]

4. Not what I saw.

Never answered a question. Left his homework home. Still didn't read the report.

You were paying attention to the suckups and the Democrats. The Republicans who were pissed were what mattered here.

Are they still pissed? That's the important question.

[markses]

7. Rumsfeld has never answered a question. Full stop.

That's what makes him a movie star. He just did an alpha male on the whole crew, and they folded.

[prolesunited]

17. Wow

You sound like a fan or something. I was at work so I didn't watch the hearings, but even if he did rise to the situation, do you have to sound like such a cheeleader for him?

[markses]

22. I'm no fan of this scum-sucking pig

I despise everything he stands for. Yet I'll call the hearings like I saw them. He trounced his critics. Trounced them.

[AlCzervik]

25. I'm gonna agree

with that statement or in senate speak "I'd liker to associate myself with those remarks". With the exception of Dayton and somewhat McCain rumsfeld steamrolled them. That doesn't make him right, thats just a fact. The senate had their opportunity to demand answers from him on a whole host of issues and they didn't. Why didn't anyone ask about those 3000 Afghanis that have been reported to have been killed while in joint custody of the US and the Afghan government? No one even asked him about his visit last month to Iraq, he toured that very prison, why didn't anyone ask about what companies private contractors were involved and why are they even using them at all for those purposes? Why didn't they ask about why we rushed to war with a woefully unprepared military? Once again this administration slips through again on a free ride.

[trof]

5. Me either.

[progressivejazz]

6. Interesting take.

To me he looked like an arrogant S.O.B. trying to save his ass through posturing.

[markses]

15. Problem being?

Guess what? Rumsfeld survives as an arrogant SOB who must posture in order to "fight off the treacherous Democrats." That's when he's being a good spokesman. As early as this morning, people were saying that if he showed any arrogance, he would be gone. Apparently Rummy didn't get the memo, for a more arrogant performance one cannot imagine. And yet. And yet. I think Rummy and crew had a different reading of the situation, and a different strategy. Not humility, but full bore fuck you. And I think it worked.

[bobthedrummer]

9. Those are your perceptions, not mine.

[lebkuchen]

10. The public will make that decision

I want him gone. I've got congressional offices on speed-dial, and I'm going to hound some asses until he's gone.

[markses]

18. The public will make the decision

And that is the ground on which he won.

[charlie]

28. Yeah, sigh

The public made the decision when Ollie North took the same FU tack and that asshole is still a celebrity. You could be right. Bah...

[lebkuchen]

There were no photos accompanying Ollie--except of Fawn Hall

plus lots of fancy facts and figures which few understood.

These torture images are something else again.

It remains to be seen the number of Americans who have lost all sense of decency and who will latch onto the insanity of Lieberman's argument that "they did it to us." (No, actually Joe, they didn't.)

If America buys into that tripe enmasse, then they'll have willingly signed onto a contract that encourages further crimes against humanity with the full knowledge of what that entails. There won't be any "we didn't know" excuse later, as was often heard in the neighborhoods of Dachau and Bergen-Belsen.

These images are a line-in-the-sand moment. You're either a member of the civilized world, or your not.

[charlie]

73. All true

But notice, the country is still largely in the thrall of this clown posse, though they've blithely and ham-handedly committed multitudes of outrages, any of which would have sunk prior administrations. Spin and imagery works for these guys to a degree I've never seen before. If Rummy can be played as having stood firm against a bunch of senatorial pansies, he may prevail in popular opinion. There's enough malleable simpletons who can't remember past last week to make that happen. Don't count on our civility, we're becoming more reactive and mindlessly visceral by the day. Depressing, but true.

[lebkuchen]

78. The Bushies control the caskets

These torture images are something else again.

Decent people, whether they're of the minority opinion or not, are not going to tolerate crimes against humanity/human dignity in their name once the evidence is before them. These crimes are like pornography: you know it when you see it.

From what we've heard at the hearings, the images we've seen so far are a trifle sampling of what's coming down the pike.

[charlie]

84. I hope you're right

As avid consumers of tawdry shock TV, radio, videogames, movies, politics, etc, I hope we're not inured to real incidences of degradation and torture. I really do. The traction that the "so she got them nekkid and made fun of their wingwangs, big deal, remember 911!" spin from the right wing has gotten isn't encouraging. Goddamn them.

[lebkuchen]

70. I think the public feels we've had enough of "ass-kicking" attitudes

for some time to come. That was what created this mess to begin with. I think Hillary Clinton pointed that out succinctly.

[keithyboy]

19. Don't forget to mention the Amnesty reports and photos from 4/03

They knew. They knew well aheda of the soldier blowing the whistle.

[nonconformist]

12. I watched the entire hearing and that's not my impression at all.

I think he did horribly. He was unprepared, he stammered, he was clearly uncomfortable many times during the questioning.

I don't think he won at ALL. I think he looked incredibly incompetent.

[loathesomeshrub]

21. I totally agree. He was uncomfortable, and wanted to be anywhere

but there. He was not as arrogant as usual, and looked guilty of incompetence. He knows he'll be the fall guy no matter what.

[Postman]

13. Are you a copy-writer for Fox News?

I hope he stays. He is the death knell of the Bush cabal...

[markses]

16. I'd thank you not to make that accusation again

I've been on these boards for over 2 years, and everyone knows I'm no conservative. I'm calling it like I saw it. Cut the personal bullshit.

[Postman]

29. Your opinion of "Rummy kicking ass" is quite bizarre..

I'm sure Rumsfeld feels like he got a new asshole ripped open.

[markses]

34. I don't think so

n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. That's your opinion...one that is clearly in the minority.

[markses]

86. Yes. I'm in the minority

I don't have a problem with that, nor does it affect my position in the least bit.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Are you a copywriter for Fox News?...

If you're going to post inflammatory crap, you better be able to handle the return fire.

I notice that very few posters are agreeing with your comments. Either we're ALL wrong, or you need to rethink your observations, such as they were.

Get over yourself.

[markses]

85. Not much in your post here.

That few people agree is of little value, since few have also put forth their arguments. I've stated why I thought Rumsfeld kicked ass. The "Fox News copy writer" insult is a personal attack, as the insinuation is that I am a conservative. I have attacked nobody personally. Perhaps you should review the rules for the board. I stated a view of the matter. Your argument appears to be 1) Insinuation of conservative allegiance and 2) Noticing a majority in opposition. If that's all you have, perhaps you should rethink your position.

[pmbryant]

14. He may not resign, but he can be impeached

At from what I read about the hearings, there are a few Republicans who just may go along with that.

:shrug:

If he pissed off enough people with his arrogance, he certainly didn't "win".

--Peter

[rkc3]

20. I haven't seen the questioning

but if he got away without answering questions it will give more power to the admin that they are untouchable.

This is the last thing we need in the run up to the election.

[Generator]

23. His opening speech was good, his answers were crap

He side answers everything. Very little directly. McCain almost had him nailed when he didn't want to answer the contractor question.

Though I had enough by the time Dole was ranting about our great service and turned it off.

Sorry I missed Hillary & Dayton.

It's what happens next that matters. It's out there and it's not going away. It's the building momemntum that matters. Worse to come.

[FrankBooth]

24. I disagree

I don't think he convinced anyone of anything. He was dissembling and strident, and wholly unconvincing, IMO.

[markses]

27. If the measure is logical persuasion

Then of course Rumsfeld would be thoroughly unconvincing, since he is clearly wrong. However, that was not the strategy the admin took. They had Rumsfeld in there even more arrogant than usual, playing the "I know best" uncle, and he nailed it.

[riverwalker]

26. markses: I agree

the Senate basically rolled over. No tough questions, it was like "Oprah Interviewimg Rumsfeld" or facing Larry King. Don't they have research people for dates, laws etc. to catch them as they lie? I could come up with more damning facts than these Senators. At least Hilary seemed to have read the report and had good questions. Mark Dayton showed the only balls in the room. It was just another press conference for Rummy. When will we learn WHO we are dealing with? TAKE THE FUCKING GLOVES OFF!!!

[Tansy_Gold]

71. Time constraints served the * administration

Each Senator got 5-6 minutes. Most wanted to make a statement, so there went a minute. If they asked a tough question -- and some tried to -- the answers evaded and took up the rest of the time.

This isn't a trial, where the prosecution and defense have virtually unlimited time. With the pukes in charge of everything, they even control the time.

As with Sept 11, ALL of this could have been avoided, prevented, mitigated, resolved -- and all with minimal effort. it wasn't. But no one has asked those questions . . . . yet.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. I don't think so, but, intuitively I think that Fumsreld will be let off

the hook, because every other criminal has been let off the hook and every other so called scandal has gone down the memory hole.

It is very depressing.

Whatever happened to Ken Lay? For instance.

Whatever happened to the inquirty re Cheney's energy task force meetings?

Whatever happend to ANYTHING that this administration has done that is despicable , sneaky, and secretive?

It will simply be shunted and sucked done the memory hole and it is about time that people realized that. IT is all for show. NO ONE really wants to do a thing about it at all, and I have the feeling that NO ONE will.

[notadmblnd]

87. and it will be declared open season on Americans throughout the world

nt

[JohnnyRingo]

31. Yeah...He kicked ass

Next He'll have to "go spend more time with his family".

[WilliamPitt]

32. Um...

http://www.rollcall.com/issues/1_1/breakingnews/5474-1.html

Rangel Introduces Impeachment Articles Against Rumsfeld

By Ethan Wallison
Roll Call Staff

Friday, May. 7; 11:23am

Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-N.Y.), a lead critic of the Bush administration’s policy in Iraq, introduced eight articles of impeachment Thursday against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld amid Congressional outrage over the Pentagon’s handling of charges of prison abuse by U.S. soldiers.

“I think that this rises to the point that it’s a high crime and misdemeanor if he disappointed the president, kept information from the Congress and kept this information from the American people,” Rangel said on the House floor.

Among the prospective charges against Rumsfeld included in the Rangel’s impeachment measure are that the Defense chief “contributed to an atmosphere of lawlessness” that permitted the abuses to take place, and “abdicated his role” in allowing such a breakdown in discipline.

The articles also charge that Rumsfeld “urged and oversaw” the removal of Saddam Hussein under a “false premise” — namely, that the United States was under threat of “imminent” attack from weapons of mass destruction and that Iraq’s dictator was in league with al Qaeda in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

...more...

[markses]

36. He was planning to do that before the hearings

Let's see if he gets even a quarter of the house on board. I doubt it.

[Jacobin]

45. Seriously, now. Exactly how fucking many votes do you think

that's gonna get?

I applaud Rangel. I do . I Agree with Rangel.

But, Markses has a point. I enjoy hearing from DUer's who are not blind to the perceptions of others of Rumfilled's performance.

I didn't see it.

But if he did his alpha dog, alernatiting with Whiney and dismissive and NO ONE MADE HIM ANSWER A FUCKING QUESTION, then he DID win.

As much as it makes me ill, it is NOT helpful to delude ourselves about these pricks and the perceptions of voters.

[revcarol]

79. Gotta have a password for RollCall..

Durn, I wanted to see the whole thing.

GO, CHARLIE!!O8)

[bhunt70]

33. I agree in part.

Those who were for him are still gonna see that he did a great job, those that are against him saw him stammer and dance around the issues. He didn't have the big fuck up like I wanted to see that would make everyone and their brother realize what a fucknut rummy is. In that sense rummy did ok.

It's the MO of this administration, skirt by and just make it through without pissing off all the people all the time.

[markses]

39. I was and am against him

And I think he did a bang up job.

[Catherine Vincent]

35. You say that only because you probably support Rumsfeld.

[markses]

38. Once again, I am no conservative

And most people here know that. And I defy you to find even one post of mine that indicates anything but contempt for these Republican scumbags. I know you and I had a run-in re: Bill Clinton, who I take to be a complete asshole. Nevertheless, I am not at all concerned about my left creds on this board.

You might also want to review the rules about personal attacks. I think your implication here qualifies.

But to make you feel better, I'll say it openly: I believe Donald Rumsfeld to be a fascist and a war criminal. He should be tried in the Hague for crimes against humanity. Better?

[Catherine Vincent]

42. Why are you being so jumpy? No one is accusing you of being a

conservative. You can support one and not actually be one. Guess what? I'm leaning against Rumsfeld being fired.

[markses]

44. I do NOT support Rumsfeld

Got it now? Understand?

I am making a judgment about the effects of his performance today. I do not support him.

[JHB]

47. If you say he probably supports Rummy,...

...then you're accusing him of being a conservative.

Can't have it both ways, cat_girl25.

[Catherine Vincent]

54. I support Colin Powell before I found out he was a yes man for Bush

and I wasn't accused of being a conservative.

[markses]

57. I've put the matter to rest

By clearly stating that I do not in any way shape or form support Rumsfeld. I'm confident you'll accept that.

[JHB]

59. I can only shake my head at that statement (by cat_girl25)....

...any other comment I'm inclined to make would get the post removed.

[JHB]

43. Or maybe because that's how he saw it. GEEZ!

The MO of Chim-Chim's whole outfit is to bluff, bluster, and shovel a load of horseshit until the questions and crisis du jour blows over.

That's what Rummy did today. How successful he was is yet to be seen, but markses thinks it'll go in his favor (not because that's what he's hoping, but because they've managed to get away with so much already the odds are against this snagging him).

[markses]

46. It's the usual insinuation and nonsense

passing as cleverness. :eyes:

[Jacobin]

49. Earth to JHB

If Rumfilled succeeded in NOT ANSWERING a single important question.....guess what? HE FUCKING WON.

Had they pressured him and insisted on answers and then he had answered questions, there might be a perjury shot at some point.

HE SKATED.

[JHB]

56. Mars to Jacobin

What's your point? I rate an "Earth to..." mode of address merely because I said the effect "remains to be seen"?

Now, if some Democrats can make enough noise that NO ONE in the administration is being held responsible FOR ANYTHING, that (kinda like thier tax breaks and military pay "reforms", people at the top get a pass, people in the rank & file get the shit, THEN this will work against him. (At 5 minmutes a person, there were no great chance of anything happening here and now, particularly with Shrubco Joe on "our" side.)

I don't hold much faith in that actually happening, but I'm still willing to consider it possible. What's your problem?

[Jacobin]

65. LOL

I'm just amused that DUers (not all but some days most) all believe each other's bullshit. My point was that if Rummy squirmed a bit and "apologized" and then just refused to answer pointed questions by talking around them, and then got whiney and belligerent, then he won.

Because the only really good thing that could have come out of this was a senator or group of them, INSISTING that he answer a question (not just engage in his famous gobbledygook), at which point he would either have had to LIE or INCRIMINATE himself.

He did not answer a question.

Thus, he skated, as much as we may have enjoyed watching him squirm a bit and a few senators make a couple of cheap points, HE WON.

I don't fucking like it a bit. Markses is just pointing out the obvious truth, and DUers are whining and freaking about it.

btw, I apologize for my cheap shot about martians, etc. It was uncalled for and peurile. Sorry.

[bhunt70]

68. I agree with this.

If nothing sticks, then he wins.

[GumboYaYa]

58. That's inappropriate.

Markses may be an independent thinker, but he is absolutely no friend of Rummy's. That type of stereotyping and foreclosure of discussion may be okay for Free Republic, but liberals should be more tolerant of different opinions.

[Cocoa]

37. if he heaped contempt on anyone...

then I think he lost. He's in no position to be contemptuous.

[markses]

40. Wrong

That was the conventional wisdom before the hearings. I think they pulled a risky but effective strategy. Rather than be humble, they intensified the contempt, thereby putting forth the appearance that nobody can touch them. And I think it worked.

[2cents]

41. He tried his usual arrogant aggresiveness...

...but it came off as trapped-rat desperation.

[JohnnyRingo]

48. Don't bash Markses

I assume he was just playing referee and making a judgement call on a tough cage match. The heading, however, does make it easy to imagine a fist pumping gesture while typing it.

[markses]

50. The subject line was meant to mimic what I think will be

the general feeling.

Besides, I just talk that way, naw mean?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

51. Fair enough, Markses. Someone's got to be the deliberate contrarian.

Done that myself, many times.

[markses]

52. Depends on your meaning

I'm not being a "deliberate contrarian," if that implies that I'm getting a kick out of disagreeing, rather than giving my honest judgment of the matter. That is not true. What I have presented in this thread is my honest judgment of the matter.

[AussieInCA]

53. and how do the freepers feel about his performance...

By the way, Secretary Rumsfeld did a GREAT job in front of the Senate, and I am SO proud of him! He and our president bear great burdens for us, and dealing with the Senate has to qualify as hazardous duty!

He did a terrific job, including pointing out that CBS did something ILLEGAL! Bring that freakin' network DOWN!

And he's NOT going to resign. He's going to keep on keeping on, God bless him!

2,555 posted on 05/07/2004 12:11:42 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HOW ARE WE EVER GOING TO CLEAN UP ALL THIS MESS?)



LALALALAALALA I see nothing, I hear nothing...the almighty bush and team are my savior LALAALALALALA

[markses]

55. Their response is predictable

Nevertheless, I think the perception of a Rumsfeld victory here will be widespread.

[kentuck]

61. Maybe some folks see what they want to see....

I saw them squirming in the hot seat....

[markses]

64. Since I have stated again and again that I do not support Rumsfeld

I'd dispute the idea that I saw what I wanted to see. What I wanted to see is a strong Senate getting real answers, and not allowing Rumsfeld to carry on like the Lord of the Castle. I wanted to see Rumsfeld crumble, or at least be publically discredited. What I saw instead was Rumsfeld take it to the Senate, and throw down a gauntlet with maximum contempt. And what I think, after seeing it, was that it was a brilliant strategy - if a massive risk - that will be quite effective for both Rumsfeld and the administration.

But I most certainly did not see what I wanted to see. I can assure you of that.

[JohnnyRingo]

62. I move that we adjourn

trial of Markses...ask that he type "Buxh sucks" 3 times, rub his stomach while he pats his head, and let it go.
The suspicion here is a good example of how divided we've become in the post Florida election era.

[quinnox]

88. heh

[alfredo]

63. Hillary did confront him

asking about the status of the prisoners, and if his attitude had anything to do with the abuse.

[Jacobin]

66. She could have asked a pointed question

that he had to either lie about or incriminate himself with and then INSIST that he answer it. Then we could have had some serious consequences, like perjury.

Cheap points are fun political fodder, but do no serious damage. BTW, Hillary just loves this war. Reaffirmed her stance on voting for it recently.

:puke:

[Selwynn]

67. Are you fucking insane?

Did you actually listen, or did you just read some second hand sources?

[Jacobin]

69. Okay. Fine.

Tell me ONE question that he was FORCED to answer.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................(and I don't mean gobblydegook....I mean an actual answer that could make him subject to perjury)

[markses]

72. I listened to start to finish

Now, do you have an argument?

[Selwynn]

81. No. You have a right to your opinion.

Just caught me at a bad time....

I will state my opinion though, which is that I profoundly disagree with your analysis in the strongest possible terms. But I don't feel like debating it.

[quinnox]

74. Rumsfeld is a formidable opponent

I've always said that. I agree he didn't do badly today, but they didn't give enough time for follow-up questions. Warner was helping him out I thought a bit by moving it along so quickly.

[Jacobin]

80. It was a dog and pony show

Some perfunctory outrage. A few speeches. A few folks "horrified"(particularly the ones who voted for the invasion), a couple of "sorry 'bout thats", a suggestion we pay off the torture victims............and its Friday night and "didja see the last episode of Friends" and my the invasion is going more smoothly and "gee isn't Kerry not a cool, regular guy" and Smirky is "really taking the heat well...he's such a great leader"..and back to more invasions after 2004.

Bout sums it fucking up.

[NashVegas]

82. One Other Person Challenged Rummy - JON STEWART

While everyone in and out of the media was fawning over Rumsfeld, Stewart and company were coming straight out and calling him a dick.

Bless their pointy little heads.

[Jacobin]

83. I'm looking forward to the Daily Show

The ONLY news left on TV.

[librechik]

90. word yesterday was if he showed any arrogance at all he was dead meat

From your own description the arrogant MoFo is dead meat.

Besides the rookies in the House didn't bring their kneepads today. They are the ones kicking Rummy's tookus.

[Skittles]

91. I agree the arrogant SOB will not resign

but he did not "WIN" a f***ing THING.