Most Americans do not care, nor have they ever cared who we brutalize.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

Most Americans cannot tell you that 2 million Viet Namese and Viet Cong were killed in the Viet Nam war but most Americans can explain away that more people are killed in car accidents every year than the number of troops we lost in the Viet Nam war.

Most Americans cannot tell you the losses in the Latin American dirty wars nor can they tell you where the mass graves filled by our government funded "freedom fighters" lay because most Americans did not care about the brutality foist upon Latin America in the 80's.

Most Americans cannot tell you about the 250,000 murdered by Suharto as he waited for Ford and Kissinger to leave because they do not care.

Most Americans do not care about the prisoners who suffocated in storage containers in Afghanistan.

Most cannot even name a name of anyone killed in the World Trade Center and they didn't give a flying fuck about those towers...nor the people in them.... their only remorse is that their own comfort was interrupted.

Most Americans do not care that we brutalize others, only that thier "reality TV" might be interrupted by news reports of it.

On a side note, while we watched the news this week of this embarrassing event, James Byrd's grave in Jaspar Texas was vandalized and a racial slur was left in the place where his headstone lay...

[democratreformed]

1. Selfishness runs rampant, no?

[movonne]

2. Maybe they have to see pictures....It might wake a few up.

[Shakespeare]

3. I don't even know what to say anymore.

Your words are depressing but true. :cry:

[camero]

4. The more I hear about Vietnam

The more glad I am that my whole family avoided it. One uncle went to Canada, another uncle couldn't go because of a childhood accident that happened to his eye. In my dad's case, I was the only child at the time so he didn't go either.

It seems almost a miracle that the whole family avoided that atrocity.

Your post is right on the money as usual.

[blindpig]

5. Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee n/t

[ulysses]

6. James Byrd

The guy dragged to death behind the truck for the crime of being black, right?

Some days, even sarcasm becomes a parody of itself. The bitterness over the murderous bullshit in Latin America is only sharpened by the Negroponte vote.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. Exactly.

BTW...that vote helped me finally reach your level of disgust with Dems and sadly even with Kerry..

[ulysses]

22. it's part and parcel of the problem.

Silence breeds its own, even 20 years down the line. Of course, I can't say what went through Kerry's head as he contemplated not voting on Negroponte, but he was hamstrung even if he wanted to vote "nay" by the fact that events like the massacre at El Mozote were never made ongoing issues. And they should have been.

Honestly, I'm sorry, Teena - sorry that you've reached my level of disgust especially after all the work you've done, sorry that we're all in this miserable, stupid, ignorant state of affairs, sorry that we can't afford another choice this year. It's a long road ahead, and it begins and ends with *making* our fellow citizens understand and care.

How do we do that? Wish to hell I knew.

[corporatewhore]

7. but they are brown people they are subhuman what people also dont know is

torture is leagal in israel no fake apology or outrage is expected

[markses]

8. I think most Americans feel that if you save an innocent life by torturing

Then the torture was justified.

This is, of course, an argument in ethics (isn't it unethical to let the innocent person die?).

The conflict is most clearly laid out in Thomas Nagel's description of absolutist and utilitarian positions in warfare. Most people on DU (though not all) take the absolutist position on torture, while some take a utilitarian position. Most people in the United States take a utilitarian position, however ethically questionable it is.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. You know that is a great point to bring up

and I must admit when faced with that question, I always take the easy way out and avoid responding to it because it IS A VALID question..but I think that is my point...is that it is a valid question but not an explanatory principle with which to justify barbarism when the OTHER conditions are absent (i.e. whose lives were they saving by physically assaulting the cab passenger?)

[markses]

15. I agree

It is much harder to insist on basic human dignity, and on not behaving YOURSELF in ways that will violate it, if you think that an innocent life can be saved. Very hard. If there's one thing that strikes me as just tough as nails about Jesus is his insistence on this rule (Nietzsche - one of our preeminent ethicists despite the quite wrong popular belief also admired Jesus greatly for this): turn the other cheek.

Difficult, difficult stuff. And, from a utilitarian perspective, torturee is, of course, justified. But that might call the whole utilitarian program into question (in fact, Nietzsche does just this in On the Genealogy of Morals).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. I had to read that in college

and having been out of undergrad school for over 20 years...I couldn't have an intelligent discussion about it now..but thanks for bringing it up...I'm going to pull it out and reread it this weekend now that you mentioned it.

And thanks for the exchange...I'm actually at saturation point today over this issue and really fighting absolute despair.

appreciate the discussion.

[Pobeka]

27. But there are no purely innocent soldiers in Iraq.

I can't condone torture under the utilitarian philosophy in this circumstance since it's clear we shouldn't be there in the first place.

I fear the torture is more related to the shock and awe of the Bushies that there *weren't* WMD to be found, and they are still in denial about it, and surely if they do anything, including torturing people, someone will confess and tell them they have several tons of sarin under their back patio.

10. Most Germans didn't care what Hitler did either at the time

but it didn't stop justice of some form from ultimately being meted out.
Look at it that way.

I don't know how precisely this is going to turn out, but I'm willing to bet that people will be held accountable eventually.

It's pretty obvious at this point how history is going to judge this stuff.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. I have no evidence that people will be held accountable eventually

Even with the events that unfolded in Latin America, most of our School of America trained terrorists there have avoided punishment nearly 20 years later.

I simply have no evidence that that is correct.

It makes me WANT to believe there is a hell just so I can console myself with the knowledge that some form of justice will occur even if it isn't apparent to me.

19. I have no evidence either

I just try to maintain my cussed optimism.

History will hold them accountable I believe though.
But of course I have no evidence of that either.

Sometimes people get held accountable, sometimes they don't.
No way to know which this one is going to be.

Don't despair.

[Pobeka]

28. Hell is too good for these jerks.

Karma is inescapable though. At least that's my view, one day, or life Bush & Co will be lying naked on the floor as the victims. I hope they have to experience it a 1000 times so they don't forget what evil is.

[BeHereNow]

11. What care of thee, have we?

When there is a new episode of "American Idol" coming soon?
A new Nike shoe to buy at the mall?
A new Starbuck coffee to slurp?
No we Americans have far more pressing issues to
contend with than what our government does in our name.
And, We're FREE to ignore it!
BHN

[Disturbed]

16. Irony

In the same week that Democratic Senators were blowing hot air about
the Iraq prison "abuse" all but three vote to approve Negroponte, a person complicit in human rights violations.

[BeHereNow]

17. And never forget-

The Truth is revealed not in what we say,
but what we do.
BHN

[0007]

13. Your absolutely right

It all about being Rambo, gonna go kick Iraqi ass - USA USA USA USA

Your either with us or against us. Now stand by your man junior you mother fucker....

[Zinfandel]

18. Yes, where is Ann Coulter when the republicans need her?

Doesn't she encourage and condone this type of actions toward Muslims?

[redqueen]

21. I will fight no more forever

:cry:

[KayLaw]

23. I know

I was just drinking a martini and thinking about how much simpler a time it was when Samantha was serving up martini's to Darren, but it wasn't. Terrible things were happening then as they are now, and if they don't affect us directly, we shrug them off.

[kaitykaity]

24. Profoundly disagree.

I know it's hard not to, but don't give over to pessimism. When
the time comes, the American people will make the right decision
about the war, about everything.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. I found my keys (from the ATA thread)

but now I've lost my optimism

[kaitykaity]

26. lol. And since Skinner changed the ATA format,

you can't go looking for your optimism there either.

:D

[bobbieinok]

29. what was that story about an abducted girl in FL and a suspect

how many here at DU supported torture (or something close to it) if it meant finding the girl???

[Piperay]

30. Whether they care or not

the rest of the World does care and the people here damned will care when Americans start getting killed because of it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. I expect things to come out soon that will be far worse than

these pictures..