I am so very tired of hearing excuses for Iraqi prison abuse.

[Liberal Veteran]

I am appalled and disgusted!

These acts were committed in our names.

Worse, there are now pictures of American and British war crimes plastered across the world's newspapers and evening newscasts.

I never thought I would say this, but everytime I hear someone say these poor GI's were ill-prepared (to be decent humans?) and poorly trained and upper leadership making excuses for something that I consider anathema or that it wasn't that bad or that they somehow deserved this treatment, I hang my head in shame at being an American.

Christ, I miss the days when the US was considered the good guys.

And this kind of rot comes from the top down. I blame Bush and his administration and right wing pundits for fostering an enviroment that allows otherwise decent people to become monsters.

I can't stop thinking about the final paragraph of Animal Farm:

"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

[Burma Jones]

1. Have we been the Good Guys at any time since, say, 1947?

I'm with you my friend. I have just about had it with the scurrying around trying to say that the pictures are not indicative of the USA. They are quite indicative of a large portion of our nation, not a majority though. This crap started with the McCarthyites and these guys and their offspring and their grandchildren have just kept the ball rolling. McVeigh was one of these kind of people. Dittoheads are these kind of people. Bush and his band of cynics have merely tapped into a rich vein of deeply held hatred and fear that can be found in a lot of countries. What will follow may very well force the majority of us to shake off whatever complacency we have and kick this slime out of the offices they neither earned nor have respected.

[SEAburb]

2. I heard a Fox anchor float a new one today

He threw out the idea that sexual tension between the male and female soldiers led to it. He seem to think that if men and women in service were keep apart, the abuse never would have happened.

These RWers will say anything to cover up the fact that this was a systemic problem.

[whistle]

4. One of the neo-con radio celebs (may have been Rush) on Friday...

...suggested that these kids had been exposed to similar photos on homo-erotic websites and were just imitating what they had seen on the internet. His proof, they were staged exactly like those sites. How does he know what the sites show without having seen them himself?

[mopaul]

5. yeah, porn causes folks to torture p.o.w.'s to death.

and listening to ozzie backwards too

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

12. using this as an excuse for gaybashing?

Pretty twisted, but thats Rush for you.

[punpirate]

7. Hmmm. Don't think that argument...

... holds up too well, if the reports are true that one of the participants is pregnant by another of the participants.... I'd say some of that sexual tension had been relieved.

It is a systemic problem, and it begins with the inhuman policies of the people put into the government by the Supreme Court.

[mopaul]

3. i'm more sickened by the torturpologists than the with the photos

they are more frightening, with their unconditional approval of nazi tactics and bushco, than the sadistic g.i.'s.

[Skittles]

6. you know, they ARE more offensive

righwingers are so f***ing stupid. There is no way - NO F***ING WAY - to SPIN TORTURE. But they are so deluded, so brainwashed, so DEMENTE, so devoid of any sense of humanity they will actually TRY. Yet many of them will be in church on Sunday. I'm SICKENED.

[gulfcoastliberal]

9. That is Scary

How far off are we from official encouragement of violence towards political opponents? If you look at Carnahan and Wellstone in a certain way, it seems like it might not be far away at all. They certainly have all the propoganda organs in place.

[NNN0LHI]

10. Its been an eyeopener. I must admit that n/t

[Ladyhawk]

13. Me, too, MoPaul.

I couldn't believe it when certain DUers (before Rush) claimed that what happened was akin to a "fraternity prank." People who condone torture--yes, I'll say the "t" word--are disgusting.

[sandnsea]

8. Just hold them ALL accountable

That's all I'm worried about, that those soldiers aren't scapegoated for what is pretty obviously torture that was orchestrated and ordered by others. Other than that, nobody ought to have to be told that sexually humiliating people is torture.

[dpt223]

11. agree 100%

There is no possible excuse for this kind of incident. Everyone involved, from the people that gave the orders to the people that carried out said orders and everyone in between, should be punished.

[madrchsod]

14. to me it boils down to this

using the freeper or moran logic, the Germans had every right to do what they did because the Jews were evil and they were destroying the German people.