So, Do Dems Continue to Push the "Abuse" Up the Ladder???

[BabsSong]

Right now the American people are looking for someone to hate and accuse over the Iraq prisoner abuse scandle so that they can wipe the blood off their own hands. They don't want to hate the GI's accused. In fact, they are in many ways rallying around them (ie., the Iraqis deserved it; or they don't deserve great people like us over there trying to bring them democracy; or these GI's deserve a medal 'cause this is war, blah blah). Then we find out that around 7 out of 10 of them don't want Rummy punished, removed or resigned over this (and that, by extentsion also means 'and don't you dare touch a hair on the head of our beloved president'). So here we are calling for his removal/resignation. I think maybe we should now shut our mouth and move out of the way of the "hate" flack that is coming down the line. Let more be revealed. Let is spread all over this administration. But I think we better think very carefully about being the ones in the way to catch the flack right in the face. If you have been listening, the regime is trying to do exactly that. That is why Rummy uses the 'political' word. That's why Bush does his manly man thing and stands by his man. That's why they say it would be deadly for our troops to replace Rummy, etc. Watch it. They've done it to us before. And that's their plan this time...and right now the people don't want either the top boys nor the bottom boys to be blamed. They are looking for a scapegoat. We seriously better watch that we don't offer ourselves as the sacrificial lamb. This damn war is the gift that just keeps giving and giving to Bush. It always ends up being a grenade with the pin pulled out with us holding it in our hands.

[thebigidea]

1. interesting how suddenly, Rummy doesn't have to be "careful"...

"we" are supposed to be "careful."

Lets remember which job is on the line here. Lets remember whose blood is in the water.

"It always ends up being a grenade with the pin pulled out with us holding it in our hands."

Due to wishy-washy pleas like yours. This fucker had subordinates torturing and raping people in our name.

Be careful?

Fuck that.

If the American people let Rumsfeld get away with this, they deserve that vampire.

[BabsSong]

3. I'm saying that right now the media and world opinion is doing the job

It's still real delicate with the people because they are still in the "those damn Iraqis deserved it mode". Just today 4 military papers came out asking for Rummy's resignation. Let these forces do their work. Let Dems keep screaming for "all to be revealed" and let "all info out", etc. BUT don't play into their hands and lead a crusade for Rummy's ouster. In fact, it's dumb on another front. Let it play out and bring down more. A swift departure of Rummy cleans up Bush. Let it land on this whole administration. You notice none of our people are saying "Bush should take the fall". They never do. So why settle for Rummy. Let this thing go full blast with no chance that the media can turn it into "this is just a horrible thing the Dems are doing in a political year". Give them no excuses.

[nonconformist]

6. The people with that kind of mentality are lost causes.

Period. They WON'T change. Nothing could change their mind if they think we should annihilate the Arab Muslim world.

They're too morally bankrupt and lacking in character to worry about.

[thebigidea]

7. So what if Bush wins, Rummy stays, it blows over?

We have been given an opportunity to take down one of the vilest creatures ever to pollute the Cabinet - staying complacent now would be ridiculous.

If you're not going to stand up and demand accountability when people are being raped and tortured in our name, when the hell will you?

What does Rumsfeld have to do, piss on your carpet?

[KharmaTrain]

2. This Is All Their Rope

Notice how low key Kerry's been the past week and I expect he will as we're still on the build-up of this incredible story...the release of the videos will be the media obsession over the next few days. The real circus is about to begin.

Yes, Americans are looking for someone to blame, but I sense a majority already know where the bucks stops (check the poll MSNBC did today indirectly pointing blame at Bush & Chenney) and definitely not at the military. Rummy's got blood on his hands, but he's not the same "rank" as the grunts who the military's going to put on "trial" to somehow absolve themselves. Here is a rope this regime could really hang themselves with.

Listen to the family and freinds of those named in the court martials and how angry they are to see their child/loved one being dragged into this. Don't mistake this as justifying their kid's behavior, but a possible battle between the top and bottom of the military that has already destroyed a depressed moral and could rip apart the entire system.

We just have to steer clear of over reacting ourselves. Patience, as you say, is important at this point as we have to be ready to have our own answers and clear alternative that a majority of the voting public will embrace that will force this regime out of power. In the meantime, get your favorite snack and enjoy the show, it's gonna be a very long, bumpy downhill ride.

[BabsSong]

8. IMR---yes--like I said the people don't want to hate the grunts

'cause too many people were grunts, have a relative who was a grunt or just identify with being the scape goat for higher ups. It's this indignation from these families that's getting M/M America to listen where we couldn't get their attention worth shit. And, I also sense that a frustrated America that is being flushed economically can also identify with these GI's because of the "being on the bottom and getting all the shit down on your head". This is the grassroots level that starts to turn this tide. It's when they stop thinking of that freakin' moron as this valiant, warrior king and know he's just a stupid, arrogant fool who never amounted to crap in his life that you will start to hear them say stuff like "you know, Charlie, I heard the bastard was AWOL in the service himself and no one did nuttin' to him"!!! Oh, Georgie, the comparison is just waiting to blast forth.

[nonconformist]

4. How could "we" end up holding the bag on this?

There hasn't been a damn thing that's blown up in our face YET. Everything that we said would happen prior to this invasion has panned out, sadly. Please elaborate on how this could end up being blamed on us?

Anyway, there is widespread outrage about this torture - not just among Democrats, but reasonable republicans as well. Sure, the repukes have stopped short on asking for Rumsfeld's resignation... so far that is. We'll just have to see what happens when the additional pictures are released to the public. Additionally, I have a different theory on this "70%" number I see being quoted repeatedly - for one, I don't buy it was that high, and two, I think there are people that wouldn't mind seeing Rummy stay in power so he can bring down the whole cabal in November. Instead of only screaming for Rumsfeld to be fired, we should also be screaming for Bush to resign. He is the Commander in Chief, and I'm really tired of this little weenie not taking responsibility for ANYTHING that happens in HIS administration.

[BabsSong]

9. There is still way too much support in this nation for this regime because

they think that "not to support it is not to support the troops". It's the troop's themselves that are ready to bring it down. Let them. Do not kid yourself that that 70% isn't damn accurate---it sure isn't 10%!! War is always a touchy thing with this country. So we let the facts and the GI's bring this guy down and don't set ourselves up for the "goddamn filthy rotton no good hate the military weak on defense Dems" get slammed for making such a "big deal out of it"........I've watched the media twist this shit for three years and stick it up our butts (complain and your playing "politics"). The media is on a roll (baby, its SEX, torture and all that good stuff---they won't let this go for any amount of WH pressure). Like Biden said this morning "Rummy is inconsequential--it's the pattern of wrong decisions constantly by this administration". See what I mean?? Take on the broader issue but don't be seen as the "bastards who want to get the great warrior, Rummy". That's the kind of "stuff" these spinmeisters can turn around on us. Give them no one to shove this off onto.

[thebigidea]

10. you are doing EXACTLY what the spinmeisters want.

They want you worried, they want you to be silent, they want this to blow over.

Why give them what they want?

[nonconformist]

12. But you're contradicting yourself

The average joe doesn't only want to see enlisted people pay for this. They don't want to see ALL troops get painted with the broad brush of being a torturer and war criminal. I agree with that. Believe me, the average working person out there can relate to the "peons" taking all the blame for anything that might go wrong while the people that are actually in charge skate by scott-free.

Besides, that we're on the same side as the majority of the military and former-military people only stands to reinforce what we've known all along - we're actually the ones that DO support the troops.

[Bandit]

5. Just Remember ~~~ They LIE through their teeth

It doesn't matter what we do or don't do they will lie about it anyway. If you want to bow out and let them lie about events that is up to you. I say Hold Them Accountable

[Kool Kitty]

11. Hold them accountable.

"They" have done a lot to "us" before. So what? This stuff is vile. The soldiers weren't working in a vacuum. Someone let them know that this behavior was all right. What should we do, in your opinion? Just sit and let this roll off our backs, too? The scandal should be greater than a Dem-Repub thing, and I believe it is. This misadministration knew about the problems long before January of 2004. They need to be held accountable. Do you think we should just keep our mouths shut about it? What's your strategy? How do you think it should be handled?

[Junkdrawer]

13. You bet your ass we push it up the line...

Methodically, carefully. Someone put MI in charge of that prison. Someone gave that person the job of putting MI in charge of that prison. And so on, and so on...

I loved it when Senator Carl Levin looked Rummy in the eye and asked him if everyone who set the policy that lead to the torture should be held accountable. Rummy just squirmed and squirmed.

[loyalsister]

14. It's the corporatism stupid

The private contractors orchestrated the questioning, the admin was dying to pay them to do it.
Ultimately, The admin paid the corporatists to scapegoat our military. The issue here is corporate welfare and protectionism. Notice there has been no criticism from the administration directed towards the private contractors.
The fact that they have more flexibility because there are no clear legal guidelines is what created this nightmare. The administration was not just complacent but enabling.
That is where they betrayed both us AND the military by making it more difficult for them on the ground and putting us more at risk than ever before.
It should be pushed cautiously, and honestly I believe our military has been betrayed. They were a gift the the private contractors. An indoctrinated bunch of "workers" ready to follow orders in the name of GOD, country, and vengeance.