The most disturbing part about the new photographs...

[ecstatic]

A seemingly lovely young lady smiling over the dead body of another human being who was most likely tortured to death. As a female I cannot imagine how another female could be so cruel and hateful. Are the soldiers caught up in this scandal genuinely the worst of the worst, or has war done this to them?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040520/481/ny11805200003

[riverwalker]

1. Remember the Peace Corps concept ...

of young Americans being our country's Ambassadors for Peace throughout the world? Well, this is the neocon's version of it.

[k in IA]

2. This is one of the most disturbing aspects of this for me also.

I know intellectually I shouldn't hold the women to a higher standard than the men but it just shocks me more. Men and women do frequently look at the same thing and have different takes on it.

I know there have always been horrible women (I have seen the pictures of them on some of these threads) that have done vicious murderous deeds but this still surprises me.

[okieinpain]

5. because of the long tour of duty, I wouldn't be surprised if we

don't have a big upswing in murder/suicides, and serial killings. I sure hope that kerry can get elected, so we can start to calm down the situation over there.

[k in IA]

11. I agree with that.

[markses]

3. I'm just wondering

And this isn't a diss, but just general curiosity: What generation are you from?

As a Gen-Xer (oooo, I hate that term, but who am I to complain), I simply do not have that feeling (that the woman smiling is worse than the obvious sadist Graner). It's just not there. I wonder if other folks my age and younger have similar reactions. The woman didn't disturb me anymore than the man.

[ecstatic]

7. I'm 24

Pro-feminism, etc. but seeing a woman smiling over a dead body is still a bit much for me. This is not to be sexist against men or anything but I just think something is more wrong when a woman does it.

[Matilda]

32. You're a few years older than my eldest, my daughter.

I feel as you do - I know we're not supposed to have sexual
stereotypes, but hey, women do have babies, carry them and nurse
them, and we're supposed to be nurturing, dammit!

[natrat]

39. i remember this study i read about in

college that involved male and female subjects delivering painful shocks and the results showed females were more apt to inflict pain.

[exploited]

8. I can imagine

... that if I woke up tied to a chair wearing a gimp suit, and I looked up at my captor, I would expect to see someone like Graner. I think I would be more shocked to see a fresh faced femme.

[k in IA]

13. I am also a Gen-Xer and it does bug me more.

I don't think she is worse than Graner and I don't think the other posters meant that either (that is not what I thought they meant).


edit - I now see that one of the people above did say they thought it was worse. sorry.

[markses]

14. My post is not an accusation

I'm honestly just curious. I don't see it as any worse or any better. I just don't get it, is all.

[k in IA]

15. I didn't take it as one. You are much more diplomatic than

some people here.

I'm actually trying to figure out exactly why my reaction is how it is and how best to express it.

[AbbeyRoad]

28. I'm GenX ...

and, like you, I don't really feel that the photo with the woman smiling over the dead Iraqi man is any worse than the photo featuring Graner.

I think any discrepancy between my reactions to the two photos is probably linked to an expectation that one gender(male) is more likely to be involved in this type of activity. Of course, any girl who's survived junior high should know this expectation shouldn't hold too much water.

I have no doubt that women are just as capable of this level of cruelty. I don't hold her to a higher standard. They are equally despicable.

[Webster Green]

4. George W. Bush did this to them.....

He has told them over and over that the Iraqi people are terrorists. He has told them over and over that the Iraqi people are responsible for 9/11. The soldiers think they are getting revenge for the World Trade Center attack, and they think they are preventing future attacks on our country.

The *pResident bears the responsibility for all these atrocities. Like Hitler, he has successfully demonized his enemies to the extent that seeingly reasonable people think the Iraqis are less than human.

Bush is the reincarnation of Hitler. Too fucking bad that people don't want to hear it or think its "over the top" to say it. Bush is Hitler. Our troops are Nazis. Iraq is Vietnam all over again. Maybe its even WWII all over again. We are the Germans this time around.

No, he hasn't killed six million yet, but he's just betting started.

He is fucking Hitler reborn.

[ecstatic]

9. If I ever found the guys who killed my uncle

And killed them all, I still don't see myself having a great big smile on my face as I posed for a photo next to dead bodies. I agree, Bush is Hitler reborn if he can inspire so much hate.

[leftyandproud]

6. She's gotta be a Republican.

They take pleasure in this sort of thing..

[kiahzero]

10. How about a warning?

That's going to haunt me.

[Stephanie]

23. You're right

Please, poster, delete the picture above. I can't recover from that. It is too disturbing. This is not my America. What is this?

[tjwash]

40. Well actually, it IS our America.

The same America that slaughtered the Native Americans and took their land from them, the same America that burned people for being "witches" at the stake, the same America that had slaves beaten in the south for not responding fast enough to orders, and had children beaten in the north in sweatshop factories for falling asleep during forty eight hour shifts.

Only after we accept that, and pull our heads out of the collective sand, can we affect any REAL change in this country.

[leftyandproud]

31. sorry

if this gives you nightmares, thank god you haven't seen the berg video...it is permanently seared into my brain like the 9-11 images

[put out]

17. No matter what she says when she's in court

That cheerful grin looks mighty genuine. I betcha there will be plenty of boo-hoo happening when she has to stand up for her deeds. Maybe the tears and trembling lips will elicit enough sympathy to get her out of an uncomfortable situation.

But I sure hope it doesn't.

A disgraceful example of my country's ideals, and of my gender, and of the fair, kind, and courageous women and men who serve in a war not of their creation.

[leftofthedial]

12. four hours of Limbaugh five days a week

it's a wonder they weren't *eating* the corpses.

[Eric J in MN]

16. Rush Limbaugh's show is three hours a day (nt)

nt

[leftofthedial]

20. seems like twelve (n/t)

[m-jean03]

36. lol-- That's some dark humor there, pal.

Too Funny, ouch. :scared:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. She's a fucking animal in a seemingl lovely young woman's body

I hope someone rejoices on her grave...you get what you put out.

[tinrobot]

19. Mentos

Looks like a sick and twisted Mentos commercial.

These people are truly whacked.

[Djinn]

21. no surprise about the women being involved

women have always been involved in war and have over the centuries shown themselves to be every bit as cruel as the men.

Unfortunately people are easilly turned against one another - genitals and chromasomes don't really come into it.

If I was a bloke I might even be a bit peeved that people seem to assume that their gender is more prone to brutality

[Stephanie]

22. No picture has ever disturbed me like that

I am sobbing alone in my room.

What is the source story for that? Who released that? I am horrified and outraged.

[Undercutter]

24. i am in army reserve right now

and these pictures do not surprise me one bit.

[Stephanie]

25. Oh God

What have we come to?

Do you have any relatives who served in previous conflicts? You have to know that this is war crimes, right? You have no doubt that this is illegal and inhumane and unAmerican and sick and depraved, right? Please tell me you understand this.

[Undercutter]

26. lol

i'm a medic. you've seen one dead body, you've seen them all. so this 'thumbs up' picture looks just stupid to me, but not really appaling.

i hang out with bunch of hillbillies for my army drills, and i know dozens of people in the military that i would fully expect to exhibit the same type of behavior towards prisoners if put in the same situation as those kids in iraq. people always say there is this phsycological evaluation process that weeds out unstable people from military service... suffice to say, nothing can be further from truth.

[Stephanie]

27. You are sick

"lol" to this is sick. Acceptance of this is sick.

[thebigidea]

29. so the whole "beaten to death" thing doesn't bug you?

So did your friends beat people to death too?

and then take pictures grinning about it?

and then pretend the body was merely wounded and take it outon a stretcher with iv bag and all?

would you help them dispose of the corpse?

if not, then perhaps you shouldn't be so amused about it.

[Misinformed01]

41. I was a paramedic

Stupid, appalling, and completely lacking in morality, empathy, and respect for human life is how I would describe the attitude of the young woman in this photo.

As far as your "Once you have seen a dead body" comment...you have become TOO callous...and need to think about changing positions. Dead bodies don't bother me either...ON A PHYSICAL LEVEL...I can look at just about anything and go eat at a buffet...but, I never forgot EMOTIONALLY that the "dead bodies" were once living breathing laughing loving human beings that deserve respect.

If you are not shocked by these photos..whether they are men or women in the pictures...then I suggest strongly that you take a step back and re-examine your entire life.

Stephanie

[newyawker99]

34. Hi Undercutter!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[jobendorfer]

30. three experiments that study authority and conformity

Stanley Milgram's experiment
Solomon Asch's experiment
P.G. Zimbardo's experiment

You can read about them in almost any freshman psychology
text.

The upshot is -- that potential lives inside all of us.
The above experiments give valuable clues about how to
make it happen. Abu Ghraib is an excellent example of
the necessary (and apparently sufficient) conditions.

Somehow, as a nation, we've got to shake ourselves out of
this innocence.

J.

[Sapphocrat]

33. I agonized over just this...

...in a thread just after the first set of pics came out.

Thanks to Spider Jerusalem and a few other understanding souls, I came to the realization -- in the most gentle way possible -- that failing to perceive women as inherently capable of the same level of cruelty as men was a result of sexism on my part.

It was pointed out to me (mostly by men, who were right) that while men may hold more sway over the domain of physicial cruelty, women usually command the realm of psychological cruelty.

Generalizations, yes, but with that, it became clear as a bell to me: The reason theses pictures may have greater impact is simply that we are not accustomed to seeing women in such a position.

It's not that woman have devolved into brutes, or that war turned them into monsters, any more or less than it's turned their male counterparts into monsters. War no doubt contributed something to their psychotic glee, but I am convinced that the seed must be present in one's psychological makeup in order for the American military culture to take hold in such a particularly vile, perverted way.

Obviously, not every soldier turns psycho. But some, like "Private Pyle" in "Platoon," must lack some inherent... something that prevents most soldiers from turning truly, truly bad. Perhaps more men suffer from Mental Disorder A, while more women suffer from Mental Disorder B -- but in the end, psychosis knows no gender lines.

Oh, yes, by the way, I'm very much a woman. And I'm still coming to grips with this ugly little revelation -- not the revelation that there really is no difference between women and men, but the revelation that I was so deliberately blind to to this particular difference.

Nevertheless, it does take some getting used to.

[kentuck]

35. There are emotional walls that one creates in war....

Not to feel compassion and empathy. Not to feel sorry for your enemy. To go along with the cruelty of your comrades. I think it is an exception for those that do the opposite.

[spanone]

37. This girls face exudes "happiness". She looks genuinely happy.

What the fuck is wrong with this person. Do we brain-wash our soldiers to the extent that they lose all humanity?? JEEEEESUS!!!

[Cheswick2.0]

38. these people are not animals and they are not insane

they are doing what many ignorant people would do when they believe that they people they are torturing are souless animals who want to kill americans. They are doing what you do when you come to think of any group of people as "evil".
This is bush's fault and the fault of the politicians who allowed this war to happen at all.