Is this total B.S. from the AP, about Michael Moore?

[Cocoa]

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/entertainment/index.ssf?/newsflash/get_story.ssf?/cgi-free/getstory_ssf.cgi?a0573_BC_France-CannesAwards&&news&newsflash-entertainment


While "Fahrenheit 9/11" was well-received by Cannes audiences, many
critics felt it was inferior to Moore's Academy Award-winning documentary
"Bowling for Columbine," which earned him a special prize at Cannes in
2002.

Some critics speculated that if "Fahrenheit 9/11" won the top prize, it
would be more for the film's politics than its cinematic value.


Many critics? How about one?

Can these critics be named, or do they have to remain anonymous for national security reasons?


Serious question: is there any truth to this? Because from what I've read, the critics are calling this a more serious and deep movie than Moore's others.

[historian]

1. its just more of the scum scurrying to hide behind their lies

[Kazak]

2. Opinions...

are like assholes...everybody has one.

[Catholic Sensation]

3. Roger Ebert liked it and he's a conservative

Rotten Tomatoes said it had a 91% fresh rating from all the top critics

The AP is probably quoting some NewsMax review of the movie.

[hedda_foil]

5. Sorry, Ebert's a lifelong liberal.

He wrote antiwar pieces during the runup to the invasion of Iraq.

[Catholic Sensation]

26. the way he was praising the Passion's

"greatness", he sure fooled me.

Doesn't he write for the same paper as Novak, or was the Siskel?

[Egalitarian Zetetic]

30. i think he writes for the sun-times but...

his whole thing about the passion was "judge it for what it is" he didn't hop on the bandwagon of bashing it because of what it chose to be about.

[jeffrey_X]

40. His wife is also african american.......not that it matters. nm

*

[kaitykaity]

4. I sent a snippy little note about this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1646998

[Monte Carlo]

6. It's "Well, on one hand... and then on the other hand..." journalism

And it makes me sick to my stomach. American national journalism is obsessed with the idea that being balanced means saying nothing definitive or substantive.

[AntiCoup2K4]

7. The "critics" in question

Sean Hannazi
Mush Limpdick
Anndrew Coulter
Bill Kristol
Brit Hume
Joe "Dead Intern" Scarborough

[number6]

8. AP ain't nothin but a piece of sh*t

:thumbsdown:

[AP]

14. Hey, I resent that!

:)

[Catt03]

46. LOL

[Sparkly]

31. Nedra Pickler and Ron Fournier

in particular, I've noticed.

[billybob537]

9. The fact that matters

HE WON THE AWARD!!

[Eric J in MN]

10. I saw plenty of good reviews. (nt)

nt

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

11. I agree this was a politically motivated award.

The Cannes jury has made political statements with the Golden Palm in the past: In 1981 they awarded it to "Man of Iron" as a statement of solidarity with the director, Andrez Wajda, and the Solidarity movement.

I don't know if it was entered in Cannes, but Errol Morris documentary "The Fog of War" is alot better than anything Ive seen by Moore, and it also won an Oscar.

[Columbia]

12. Rotten Tomatoes

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/Fahrenheit911-10004132/

So far he has a 75% "Fresh" rating and a 6.1 average rating which is far from his 97% on BFC - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/BowlingforColumbine-1117183/.

Here are the critical reviews -


"Even if one agrees with all of Moore's arguments, the film reduces decades of American foreign policy failures to a black-and-white cartoon that lays the blame on one family."
-- Kirk Honeycutt, HOLLYWOOD REPORTER
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-10004132/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1281788

"A lot of hot air."
-- Lou Lumenick, NEW YORK POST
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-10004132/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1281909

"The sporadically effective docu trades far more in emotional appeals than in systematically building an evidence-filled case against the president and his circle."
-- Todd McCarthy, VARIETY
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/click/movie-10004132/reviews.php?critic=columns&sortby=default&page=1&rid=1281790

[Cooley Hurd]

19. Yep, slip that Murdoch rag (NYPost) in there...

*yawn*

[Columbia]

20. Don't shoot the messenger

I just copied them from the Rotten Tomatoes site.

Apparently Hollywood has lost their love for Moore though with both major Hollywood dailies giving the film poor reviews.

[Catholic Sensation]

27. Time, NY Times, Wash Post, Village Voice, Times of London, C Sun Times

and the British Broadcast Corporation...

or the New York Post, Variety, and the Hollywood Reporter... hmmm

Respectable news publications, or "newspapers" that among giving film reviews also trades in Hollywood Gossip.

Whose opinion should I take? Such a difficult decision. :eyes:

[Columbia]

28. You should probably see it for yourself first

The poster wanted to know who the critics were and I told him with links.

On edit: Have you ever read the Hollywood Reporter or Variety by chance? They are trade publications that detail the true workings of Hollywood more than any other. The National Enquirer it is not.

[troublemaker]

13. A sad day

I am heart-sick over this film winning the Palm D'Or because the Palm D'Or is my favorite film award and there is little chance that Fahrenheit 911 is the best film submitted this year.

Art has no place in politics or visa versa. Many people think otherwise, and they can drop dead. (Or, if they insist on remaining alive, they can examine the immense artistic contributions made by the USSR and Red China.)

That's not to say it's a bad movie. I haven't seen it, but I suspect it's quite good. But no matter how skilled or provocative it may be it's propaganda. When prestigious artistic awards go to propaganda the whole world suffers.

As for the initial post--puh-fucking-lease! You haven't seen the movie but your panties are in a bunch because some critic said that other critics say that Moore's current film isn't as good as his last film. What absolute HELL of brittle political correctness is this where it's an outrage to say Bowling For Columbine was better?

[RoyGBiv]

16. Art has no place in politics?

Art has been politically motivated since before the beginning of recorded history. At times, art has been the only available form of political protest.

Okay, I guess I'll just go drop dead now...

As to your last point, I will agree it's a little silly to get worked up about a critical review of a film that says it is "not as good as" a previous film by the same filmmaker, especially since no one here has even seen it.

[troublemaker]

41. Politics is about everything and visa versa, but...

Politics is about everything and visa versa. I understand that. I also understand that all politics is about lies, and art is ideally about truth.

Politics is, by it's nature, a necessary evil. Art is not, by it's nature, evil.

Politics corrupt art. Most people with very strong political feelings think otherwise but that doesn't make them right.

I don't expect anyone to agree. At best I want to make people aware that the viewpoint even exists. It's so common to hear art praised for 'making a difference.' It's great to make a difference... it's just not what art is about. (By 'art' I mean ART in the most refined sense. I personally think everything made by a human being with any intention--not even a primary intention--that it be beautiful is art, so I'm talking about the ideal of art... the set of qualities the most sublime art seeks.)

Take this statement: TRIUMPH OF THE WILL is better than BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE. If 'better' means more benign or having a better effect on the world, of course not. TRIUMPH OF THE WILL helped make the world a much worse place. Almost no decent person would disagree.

But if 'better' means a better work of art then the statement is as close to true as any statement about art can be. An overwhelming majority (I would expect about 98%) of film critics would agree. TRIUMPH OF THE WILL is about as artistically brilliant as a work of propaganda can be. It's like the combined CITIZEN KANE and GRAND ILLUSION of propaganda.

Having said all that, neither film is really great art because each has a real-world agenda. It's exceedingly difficult to be honest enough with ones-self to find the sort of inner objectivity great art requires. (Even the wildest expressionist requires objectivity about her own emotions while striving to express those emotions with minimal affectation.)

If you are trying to get people to vote for one guy or the other than you have ceded control over the nature of your work. Some artists find direction in political thought and do good things with it, but if they were able to find direction in something not built on lies they would be even better positioned to do good work.

Think of it this way; most folks are comfortable with the idea that artists seek a sort of purity. Jane Artist does paintings. All kinds and colors of paintings. But only her paintings with a lot of blue in them sell. People just seem to like them better. So now when Jane approaches the easel she's conditioned by the marketplace to use a lot of blue. Maybe that's not what she feels is the right color at the time, but everyone has to eat. Most would agree that Jane has, to some small degree, been corrupted by money and is now painting for someone else.

Propoganda is like that. It's about making someone do something -- vote for Kerry, buy a painting... something. So now the painting is a means to an end.

[QC]

42. Objectivity in art? There's no such thing.

Every human endeavor involves politics. Everything. Beethoven dedicated a symphony to Napoleon (and later became disillusioned with him). Faulkner's novels, for all their stylistic and narrative experimentation, are often deeply reactionary defenses of the same Southern hierarchy that created the racial violence that Faulkner so hated. Arthur Miller took on the McCarthyites in The Crucible, which is generally considered a fine play. And so on.

I get your point that explicitly political art is often bad, like those Russian ballets about the collective farm getting a new tractor and helping meet the wheat production goal of the latest five year plan. But there's a big difference between bad "socialist realism" and genuine art that explores the issues of its day.

Besides, Moore has never claimed to be an aesthete. I think he's very open about wanting his films to make a difference in the world. If that makes him a propagandist, then fine--I wouldn't trade him for five auteurs making pretentious films that no one will ever see.

[RoyGBiv]

48. An Artfully Expressed Opinion

Unfortunately, it is based on a false premise. Politics is neither good nor evil; it simply is. Politics refers to the interaction of human beings and how they associate themselves together in a society. Lies are sometimes used in political interactions, but then so are truths. These facts do not speak to the true nature of politics.

Neither do they speak to the true nature of art, if such a thing even can be shown to exist outside a contrived metaphysical argument. What, exactly, is "beauty"? Does beauty exist without an observer, and if there are two observers that do not agree, does the beauty cease to exist? The determination may well be a political decision.

Having said that, I'm not totally dense, and I do understand what you're getting at. I wouldn't even argue that Moore's films are to be taken as representative examples of great art on any level except that of documentary making. He's pretty good at that. But, he's also pretty good at making a political statement, which can be considered an art in itself.

[Cooley Hurd]

18. Living up to your name...

Have you seen F 911??? Heart-sick that it won an award? Methinks you need to get out more... :eyes:

[Cocoa]

21. he's not a critic, he's a reporter

If he'd said HE didn't like the movie as much as BFC, then my panties wouldn't be in a bunch.

But that's not what he said. He made a factual claim about what other critics have said, and I'm calling
B.S. I've emailed him asking for some data to backup his FACTUAL claim.

Regarding politics having no place in art, where in hell did you get that? I think otherwise, big time.

[troublemaker]

37. But you made the same general claim, reffering to what 'the critics' think

[Cocoa]

39. here's the email I sent him

You get it? I'm disputing the FACTS of what he wrote. Pretty reasonable, I'd say.


Dear David,

Are you sure that "many critics" thought it was inferior to his
last movie?

I'm a big fan of Moore's, and so I've been reading reviews of
Fahrenheit 9/11 with great interest, and I have to say I
didn't see what you are now reporting. In fact, the consensus
seems to me that it is much better than his other movies, more
serious and more poignant.

Maybe you could update your story and provide the data to
support the strong statement you made about criticism of this
movie. It's only fair to the filmmaker, especially in a story
about his great achievement.

Thank you,

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

22. I agree wth you, more or less.

This was a polticaly motivated award this year.

[SemperEadem]

24. they're in a bunch because

he didn't cite who, exactly, these sources are; given the proclivity of what passes for journalism these days, a purposely, unsubstantiated charge is laid on this film.

We're not talking about national security here with the critics. It's a movie they've reviewed. Most critics would love the added press of being quoted. After all, it IS their job.

[Malva Zebrina]

29. Art has no place in politics or visa versa

I think you have art mixed up with religion.

Art has always been the underpinnings of politics--often forewarning before we as a society even are aware. Note how our stupid assed, dull witted first xanaxed lady refused to have the poets to lunch when it was discovered they WROTE WAR POEMS.

Please note the angst in Picasso's work



Please read some Willian Butler Yeats and other war poets and please note the wonderful black and white photographs of the Civil War /slavery in this country.

I think you spoke too soon.

I don't know what or where art is today in these times. Perhaps it is to be found on the internet--it seems to be sleeping at this particular time, but I hope it wakes very soon.

[bpilgrim]

33. guernica

all that conviction from one who hasn't even seen the movie let alone all the others.

peace

[maggrwaggr]

34. if you haven't seen it, you can't make that judgement

and you admit you haven't seen it.

Duh.

[Ann Arbor Dem]

35. In any repressive regime, art is often the only outlet...

...that people have to express their true thoughts and feelings about what is going on in their countries. Ususally, artists have to use pseudonyms and/or bury the true messages of their works in the guise of outwardly innocent representations in order to pass censorship or evade torture.

To say that art has no place in politics and vice versa is a naive view of the world. We are living in a regime that is becoming increasingly repressive each day.

Bravo to Michael Moore for not backing down!!

Edit: typo

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Artistic contribution by the USSR and "Red China"

"Red China"? What are you, a time traveler from 1962?

Anyway, here are some of the cinematic achievements of each country:

USSR:
Potemkin
Alexander Nevsky
The Cranes are Flying
Ballad of a Soldier
Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors

CHINA:
Red Sorghum
Yellow Earth
To Live
Suzhou River
Not One Less
The Blue Kite

All of these are quite up to the standards of world cinema, thank you.

[bobbyboucher]

43. "Red China" is trollspeak.

They give themselves away with their own words.

[bobbyboucher]

45. Could you be any more obvious?

"Red China", "absolute HELL of political correctness", along with the rest of the nonsense in your post are trollspeak classics. Save it for the ditt-monkey crowd.

And for that "the Palm D'or is my favorite film award" horseshit, I don't think I've heard anything so fucking ridiculous in my entire life. Do you think that there is a single person on this forum that would fall for that historic lie?

You really need to quit kidding yourself, we know you carry water.

[DrWeird]

47. Propaganda by definition has to be false.

This sounds more like investigative reporting.

[Tellurian]

15. Bush's form of damage control... raising doubt!

these people are so last week!

[Straight Shooter]

17. I'll make up my mind when I see the film

f*ck critics. Why don't they get a real job.

[sir_captain]

23. As someone who has worked as a film critic

there are a few things I'd like to tell you to do if they didn't break the DU rules.

[sir_captain]

25. Simply based on the artists who were there

like the two directors I consider to be the best in the world today, Zhang Yimou (House of the Flying Daggers) and Wong Kar-Wai (2046) I'd guess that Moore's award is somewhat politically motivated...of course, we should all actually watch these films before getting too exercised.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. That's how they reported it on TV5 (French TV)

[against all enemies]

36. The more controversy the better.

More people will see it to make up their own minds. And those with minds will vote Bush out.

[genius]

44. Anything to downplay it's significance. This is a win for all of us.

Way to go, Michael.