Question about homosexuality

[GOPFighter]

I have written a few letters to the editor of my local newspaper in response to religious morons who write columns and LTE denouncing those who choose a gay lifestyle. I mention that every gay person I know has told me they knew they were gay (or at least suspected it) from about puberty. None has ever indicated their gay lifestyle was a choice. However, this is based on a rather small number of gay friends or acquittances.

Now the writers are claiming the the latest research shows that almost anyone can change sexual orientation if they want to, and women can change easier than men. Is there any validity to this, or is this just more RW fiction?

[jadedcherub]

1. ..?

Dunno 'bout the first, but I've read behavior modification has been used successfully to change sexual orientation, but had a high relapse rate as well as a high rate of depression and suicide with the "converts."

So, I don't know if that's necessarily conclusive evidence. Well, perhaps it is, but it conclusively shows how inhumane expecting someone to change their sexual orientation is.

.jc.

[LiberalFighter]

22. Wasn't very successful then if high relapse rate...

and results of depression and suicide.

[dsc]

2. I can't speak directly to research I haven't seen

but I can tell you that if I had been able to change I surely would have when I was a kid or in college. I would have given just about anything to be normal back then. All the research I did showed a dismal success rate with sucess being defined as refraining from having sex with men not being able to have a real relationship with women.

[alvis]

3. Here's the question

Ask them to change their sexual orientation. You'd probably not get a very positive reponse with that. Anyway, always ask for a source. Keeps'em honest, yeah right. :evilgrin:

[Lindacooks]

5. That's perfect!!

If it's so easy to change, then heterosexuals should be able to change easily.

I personally think asking people to 'change' is ridiculous - and bigoted.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. Well, let me ask you this...

Do you honestly believe that with a little psychotherapy, I could make you queer?

[freetobegay]

6. Give me homosexuality or give me death!

Isn't that the correct quote?

Put it this way, do you think you could be programed to be a homosexual?

[GOPFighter]

20. To you and Liberal_Veteran

No, I seriously doubt that there is anything that could change my sexual orientation. But then I don't desire to change. That seems to be the kicker here.

[freetobegay]

26. Am I reading you right?

You think some of us do?

[dsc]

27. of course some gays and lesbians want to change their orientation

Heck I spent years wanting to do so. Life would be so much easier is why. Fortunatly most outgrow that stage but the stage does exist.

[freetobegay]

29. I guess I'm one of the few.

I never wanted to change mine.

[dsc]

31. I have no idea what age you are

but I do think there is something to that. People my age and older are more likely to have wanted to than those who are in their teens and 20's. But just think of Randal Terry's poor kid, he must have wanted to be straight at some point.

[freetobegay]

32. I am 40.

[dsc]

34. 36 here

You are lucky then. Note I did use some and stand by that. I haven't felt that way for several years but at one time would have given just about anything to change.

[GOPFighter]

33. Well, the point these writers are making

is that if gays WANTED to change, they could - so homosexuality IS a choice and therefore society (and God) has a right to deny them rights that homosexuals enjoy (like marriage and going to heaven). I think that's Bullshit.

[dsc]

36. they can change religion

and thus I shouldn't have to respect their rights according to their own reasoning. Somehow I bet they have an exception to that though.

[PartyPooper]

7. Wrong. I knew I was attracted to members of the same sex BEFORE puberty.

Believe me, it wasn't a choice. It was me.

[pagerbear]

8. What writers? What research?

I've never heard this.

Even if it were possible, would there be any more justification for denying G/L/B/T people the same rights other Americans enjoy?

[Djinn]

9. well I never chose to be straight

I just was, I imagine that's the same for everyone else straight, bi or gay.

I didn't have to wait till I was an adult to know I was attracted to blokes, you know from a pretty early age.

I could start sleeping with women easilly enough but that wouldn't change my sexual orientation. More to the point why should someone change theirs even if they could.

[Gildor Inglorion]

10. I can only speak for myself...

but there is NO WAY I could ever "convert" to heterosexuality. If someone invented a pill to force the conversion and I had to take it, I'd become someone else. I didn't DECIDE to be gay; there was no CHOICE involved. It's who I am, not what I do. If I never have sex again in my life, I'll still be a homosexual. I hope this makes sense, because it's a really important point that some people never seem to grasp.

[yardwork]

11. This so-called research gets trotted out from time to time.

The message is that if a person just prays really, really hard, and engages in psychotherapy that demeans gay/lesbian/transgendered people, they will be "cured." The "therapy" is built around guilt and self-hatred, with the premise that one must be straight to be saved.

It's just one example of the psychological and emotional abuse perpetrated by some religious groups.

[LiberalFighter]

23. Prayer should be all that it should take...

otherwise they are saying that prayer doesn't work.

Psychotherapy should work by itself without prayer otherwise psychotherapy doesn't work.

[yardwork]

47. You're asking for consistency from the right-wing morans?!

The only consistent aspect of their ideology is its ability to morph as needed to fit the facts to ideology.

[CharlesGroce]

12. Look

It doesn't matter one way or the other if someone can 'change' or 'choose' their sexual preference, we have an inherent right as American citizens to do so! I mean, as if someone choosing to be homosexual means that they are somehow criminal is fucking absurd.

The RW wants you to ask questions like these, because they lead to a narrow argument about sexuality. AWAKEN.

[GOPFighter]

18. The reason I asked

was because I wanted to base my claims that homosexuality is not a choice on a larger population than the few gays I know well enough to discuss this. I firmly believe that even if it IS a choice it shouldn't be grounds for discrimination or harassment.

[LiberalFighter]

25. Liberty and the pursuit of happiness

[unblock]

13. the idea that it's a choice is ludicrous

if everyone had only the "normal", heterosexual drives, and homosexuality were a choice, why would anyone in their right mind choose homosexuality? with all the bigotry around, you'd have to be nuts to choose homosexuality.

homosexuals acknowledge their orientation because they have no choice.

just as i, as a heterosexual, have no choice. i don't recall ever "choosing" to be attracted to the female form.


the only kind of "choice" involved is for homosexuals to choose to suppress who they are and to live a fraudulent life of heterosexual cover, all so the bigots can pretend homosexuality doesn't exist.

[CharlesGroce]

14. Oh

we must have forgotten that the constitution enables Americans to CHOOSE their PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS!

[Rowdyboy]

15. I have been naked, in bed, intimately involved , with two gorgeous

women who were friends of mine. They weren't strangers, they were people I was comfortable with. Yet, I never felt any sexual arousal.

Give me 30 seconds under the covers with a fully dressed man (whether I know him or not) and I'll show you my interest. Sorry, I wish I could change my orientation. Its just not possible.

[2Design]

16. it is BS the majority are born that way

If there are any who CHOSE, they are a very small minority and it is usually women who were abused by their RW Christian fathers, uncles, brothers, cousins....etc....

Majority are both that way.

It is those minority that they use to cite their information. It takes only one who says, oh, yeah, I chose...for them to say it is possible...and psychology has professed to be able to help.....

it all laid guilt on those who are naturally, healthly, and God given blessed to be born that way.

[ibegurpard]

17. Orientation is immutable

You might be able to be celibate or make yourself sleep with someone of the oppostite sex (and maybe even enjoy it) but you can't just make what turns you on go away. A lot of straight men (many more than would admit it) have had homosexual experiences in their lives. That doesn't make them gay. If you are a man and you are turned on by women then you're straight. If you're turned on by both then you're bisexual. If you're turned on by men then you're gay. And vice-versa with women. You can try to BEHAVE differently than how your wiring prompts you but you can't change the wiring itself. And why should you even have to?

[davidinalameda]

19. it's RW fiction

someone already stated that conversion therapy is sketchy at best

aversion therapy is torture--yes, someone can "change" for a while but their true nature will cut through

anyway, why would anyone want to change except through the pressure of misguided family members or society at large?

I'm very happy with my orientation. I was attracted to other boys as far back as I can remember. I don't know how to be "straight". This is what and who I am.

[prodigal_green]

21. I'm actually more curious about the term "lifestyle"

I'm not sure I live a hetero lifestyle, even though I am a woman who is attracted to men. Is there a particular magazine we subscribe to? How do we feel about pleated pants? What is the best companion animal?

Is there an African-American lifestyle?
Is there a lifestyle for green-eyed people?

I just think it is a funny concept.

[Djinn]

28. well said

I've often wondered what the "homosexual lifestyle" is all the gay people I know have "lifestyles" much like mine, they go to work, pay their rent/mortgage, save up to go the snow or beach for holidays, argue and make up with their partners/friends and family, shop for groceries, veg in from of the TV, get a bit too drunk sometimes at parties, feel guilty about not doing enough exercise/gardening or housework etc etc.

The only difference I can see in their lifestyle is that society generally doesn't have much of a problem with mine. Even though as someone who never wants to get married EVER but lives with my other half - surely my relationship should be just as "dangerous" to the "sanctity" of marriage as theirs???

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

24. Total fiction in my opinion

I know many people who are very close to me and are gay or lesbian. To a person, they have all expressed how, if it were a choice, they are baffled as to why someone would choose something that their society makes so hard. Why would they do that to themselves? I think it is inborn. Just as I could not wake up tomorrow and decide to be lesbian, my lesbian friends could not wake up tomorrow and decide to be straight.

[GOPFighter]

30. I think I found the study they were referring to

http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=5458&department=CFI&categoryid=papers

It is posted on the Concerned Women for America website. Hardly what one would call a reliable source.

[Touchdown]

40. I believe that study consisted of phone interviews....

...of 200 ex-gays (or Been-Gays) hand picked by Exodus International, the leading "ministry" that brainwashes gay people to modify their behavior.

This book shoots down the most popular bogus research cited...



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560234466/qid=1085976932/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-9742613-2738362?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It's worth a read, if you want to know the real right wing agenda regarding the ex-gay movement.

EDIT: That butt waddling away on the cover, belongs to JOHN PAULK. The poster boy for the ex-gay movement, who was interviewed in Time Magazine in 1998, during the ex-gay putsch, and wrote the big lie book "Love Won Out". The picture was taken outside of a gay bar he just fled after buying a few guys drinks and was recognized by the author.

[Lisa0825]

35. I have two points I'm curious about...

1) I wonder if they are basing their "research" on people who may not be gay, but actually bi, and therefore COULD be happy with someone of the opposite sex, and maybe are determined to deny their same-sex attractions?


2) Because society is more accepting of lesbians (because it's such a turn-on to men), maybe more women who have some amount of attraction to other women, are more likely to be counted in their study?

I am one who believes in the continuum theory.... some are on one end or the other, but the majority of us are somewhere in the middle... perhaps those in the middle might be perceived to have changed, even though it was in their nature to have somewhat of a choice anyway?

[Curious Dave]

37. I Tell Straight People Who Bring This Up

If you aren't born gay then something must happen in your life that makes you become gay. I then invite them to discuss what events in their own life might have influenced them to be gay. At that point about half of them tell me there isn't any life changing event they can imagine that would make them gay. You can almost see the light bulb come on over their heads at that point. :)

The other half start blathering about "yeah, OK but its your choice to act on your homosexuality". At which point I realize I'm talking to an idiot and I go and do more productive things with my time.

[kiahzero]

38. If there's a study, ask for a citation

If they actually believe in the science behind a study, and claim that it is fact, they should be able to cite it in such a manner that others can verify it's existence.

If they can't cite either the title of the study or who wrote it, it's perfectly fair to view them as full of shit.

[Q3JR4]

39. The conversion therapists

believe that if a homosexual no longer has sex with someone of the same sex and if that person marries someone of the opposite sex, s/he's cured.

As most of ya all have said here, that's total bull crap.

[weedthesmoke]

41. I don't see what the big deal is

There is nothing wrong with taking a ride on the wild side with members of either and or plus any gender as long as you have fun doing it. My only regret is that it happens not too often enough and when it does it is always an exciting time with wonder when it may happen again...

[TrogL]

42. It's not a "lifestyle"

You cannot change orientation. Believe me, I've tried.

They're pushsing something called "reparative therapy" which is complete bunk.

See http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/orient.html

[Touchdown]

43. This is John Paulk...Poster boy for the ex-gay movement.

This is Johan Paulik...a gay porn star from the Czech Republic




Are the similarities in their names a coinicdence, or dreaming?:evilgrin:

[davsand]

44. Who do you see yourself getting old with?

A man or a woman? THAT is how I define somebody's sexuality.

I have always felt that many otherwise straight folks would probably have a fine enough time with a same gender partner IF they were not afraid of the stereotypes or were free of other restraining things like other people's opinion or a promise of fidelity made to a current partner. WHO you want to life partner with is, however, not a mutable thing, IMO.

I'm convinced it is hardwired in our Brains, and I don't think that some BS conditioning exercise is gonna change that no matter how much denial is practiced, no matter how much pressure is brought to bear.

Laura

[rachael7]

45. Of course its bunk

"Reparative therapy" is exactly what this "study" is referring to. This is a study in the same way that Bailey interviewing 7 transvestite hookers and then writing a book where he claimed transgendered persons have a high probability of working in the sex trade consituted a "study". Reparative therapy is a practice that is totally frowned upon by the mainstream mental health profession and considered damaging and dangerous. Basically, it is a sort of avoidance therapy that seeks to keep people from acting out their natural sexuality. Its like a 12 step program for homosexuals. Only difference is that some people in AA actually manage to get sober and move on. NOBODY in reparative therapy gets "cured". What happens is that a few that were never really gay in the first place, but just bi or experimenting a little, are miraculously healed. Meanwhile, the people who founded the "ex-gay" movements keep getting caught in gay bars. Its a joke. Absolute non-science. This is the same type of junk, pushed by the same kind of people, as want us to learn "creationism", practice eugenics, and believe that global warming is a liberal conspiracy theory. Enough said.

Rachael :tinfoilhat:

[Sapphocrat]

46. Without reading any responses...

It's more RW fiction, AFAIC.

For the record, I knew I was gay before I knew there was a word for it; i.e., consciously before I was three.

And I knocked myself trying to "convert" to heterosexuality in my late teens. Didn't take, no matter what.

So that's my experience for you.