Texans (and all) speak: Would a Kerry /Ron Paul ticket work?

[theophilus]

Please school me on this. I have heard enough about Paul to be impressed with his differences from this maladministration. Being a Republican in name, he could be a unifying choice. Could he and Kerry work together to any degree? Would his place on the ticket possibly bring in Texas for the Dems (what a coup!). Let me know if there is any chance of this happening........discuss among yourselves. :-)

[kalian]

1. Now THAT would be interesting....

much better than a Kerry/McCain ticket IMHO.

[ima_sinnic]

2. why are we always being presented with REPUKE VP candidates?

much as I like Ron Paul-- :wtf:

is the Democratic Party so bereft of good candidates that it must look to the Republicans for them? sheesh.

[theophilus]

6. I agree, but......

Desperate times call for desperate measures. We all know this administration will probably stop at nothing to stay in power. We have the precedents for 2000 which were bad enough. I am putting out Paul, more or less, as a better Rep. choice than McCain.

Personally, I am leaning toward Clark, but it would be so cool if Texas could be a blue state this time. I agree with your frustration and I do think there are strong Dem. VP candidates but I am sure we all agree that it is alright to think out of the political box if it will stop our Nation's slide into chaos.

<edit for spelling>

[Beatrix]

68. Are you aware Paul is nuttyer than Bush?

He might attack Bush sometimes, but that's because Bush isn't far enough off in wacko land for him to like. Read some of his past positions. If Paul was president you would be on your knees pleading for Bush to come back.

[Beatrix]

67. It's a self defeating/out of touch suggestion

People who suggest a repub VP usually fall in to two catagories

1. They believe we can't win and republicans can. Therefore, by making a republican "ours" we "win". Unfortunately they fail to realize just because a repub would be running on our ticket we still lose and the repubs win.

2. They are out of touch. They believe that progressive candidates can not win, while right wing fascists can. Therefore they want candidates who support right wing positions. (i.e. republicans) These people don't really care about progressive positions. They put "winning" first and foremost. (otherwise they would have a problem with people like mccain - anti-abortion and conservative on many other issues - being elected) IMO they are not democrats because they don't really care about advancing the platform of the party when they want us to nominate candidates that are entirely opposed to our core values simply so we can "win". Or of course maybe they have other goals...

I personally believe the majority of people who do NOT vote would be FAR more likely to vote democratic than republican if they did vote. (after all, working class people FAR out number the rich, and most people are pretty liberal socially) Unfortunately taking pansy ass DLC positions that are either 1. Against the common person or 2. BS positions that sound nice on paper and never happen cause people to stay home. As a result we are in the sad situation now where democrats feel we have to run republicans to "win".

Anyone ever see a republican seriously suggest they run a democrat? I know I haven't. These are the cries of a dieing party.

[w13rd0]

3. That would be interesting...

...I like some of what Ron Paul has had to say. On the other hand, you could rely upon him to be an obstructionist to the nth degree as Senate tie-breaker on any and all spending measures, and I don't think he'd change his stripes on some areas absolutely ESSENTIAL to the ticket.

[truhavoc]

4. What ever happened to the idea of

"I work at the pleasure of the president?"

[Yupster]

11. Not the VP

The VP is an elected Constitutional official in his own right. The cabinet and other guys work at the pleasure of the president.

[JPJones]

5. How about Kerry/Les Paul? n/t

[BurtWorm]

7. Now THAT's a ticket I could get behind.

:thumbsup:

[Andy_Stephenson]

40. Les paul and Mary Ford

Could serenade Bush* as he leaves the White House with....

Via Con Dios...

[BurtWorm]

81. Now THAT's a Ford administration I could get behind!

:thumbsup:

[indigobusiness]

8. Ron Paul is better used within a Kerry administration

where he could be more effective. Like EPA or something. He is too controversial for VEEP.
Kerry's VP should be Edwards, in my view. Given a successful Kerry presidency, Edwards would be well groomed and supremely qualified to maintain a Dem dynasty. His skills are underrated.
Plus, I feel the tainted legacy of the Bush debacle will sour the power of the RW for a long, long, time. Dems MUST make the best of it.

[theophilus]

12. Thanks for the info. This is why I asked.

n/t

[indigobusiness]

19. Sure ...Just my 2 cents...But, glad you brought this up...

My hope is that Kerry can begin to heal this nation. More than that is a lot to ask.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. You want a Libertarian/Property Rights nutjob at EPA?

Good grief. Even the DLC doesn't go that far.

[indigobusiness]

38. Your euphimistic characterization is telling...

My opinion is that he would expose the lies (on both sides) for what they are and shed an honest light on the issues.

For an effective EPA, the issues need someone unorthodox to find a genuine balance...clean up the poison without shackling the people.

This is just my opinion, and my opinion is not governed by the DLC, you, or anyone else.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. He's a libertarian for Chissakes.

You know, "Libertarian", as in "Free Market", Laissez Faire Capitalism, "Property Rights", anti-union, libertarianism. He's about as "unorthodox" as the timber industry stooges.

[indigobusiness]

63. That's your "hotheaded""opinion

and I am well aware of the stereotypes and their definitions and the propogandistic usage of that kind of terminology, and the silliness of name calling.

I used the word "hotheaded" to employ your style of argument.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. Aw, shucks, sorry for pointing out the obvious so heatedly.

Perhaps, you would like to answer the charges in a gentlemanly and courteous way rather than merely avoiding them. However, if you should care do so with some passion, I will not be offended.

As I see it, Ron Paul represents the Libertarian wing of the Republican party. The wing that is devoted to capitalistic ideals (if they can be called "ideals"). Which is for "property rights", Laissez Faire Capitalism, and against collective bargaining, and regards such, in general, as the principles guiding so called "libertarianism", as differentiated from a much more honorable form of "libertarianism" espoused by the "Libertarain Anarchism" of the '30s which believed in communitarian/socialist ideals that benifitted the majority of the people rather the rich few.

Awaiting your, tepid or heated, response with all equinimity.

[indigobusiness]

65. Your snide tone and mock sincerity further undermine the value

of your argument.
A dispassionate discourse is the best path to clarity.

I did address your argument specifically, by pointing out that specifics and individuals get lost in the bigotry of stereotyping. But, I guess that point was lost to you amongst all your vitriol...or, rather "passion"....(I wouldn't call it that, but that's just me".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Your dancing around the subject negates any value of discourse.

Whether it's vitriolic or not. Are you ever going to address the issue of Ron Paul being a libertarian thinly disguised as a republican? Or, are you going to continue to merely attack the message?

A "discourse" isn't a path to anything except verbiage unless the actual issues are discussed, whether impassionate or not.

[indigobusiness]

76. Your axiomatic logic is stunningly lacking.

My point was that using labels the way you do is of little or no value in the domain of ideas, and do any reasonable discourse a disservice, regardless of opinion. I am not about to argue opinion, that is the realm of dogma.

There was no "dancing around" anything on my part, and I might point out that "dispassionate" is not "impassionate".

The meaning of my argument appears abstractly beyond your grasp...so be it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

78. Wow! "Axiomatic logic". "realm of dogma". I'm so impressed.

Oh dear, we certainly wouldn't want to argue "opinion" on a board devoted to opinion. And, we absolutely don't want to "label" anything or anyone. We should only speak in deep thinking abstractions about the nature of discourse without ever allowing ourselves to have thoughts (opinions) and arguments about the topic of why a libertarian should or should not be in charge of the EPA. That might be considered dogmatic. Shall we now have a discussion, (sans opinions of course), about the nature of "opinions as dogma"? Or, perhaps, the question of dogma formulating opinions thus rendering them valueless? You must be a helluva lot of fun when trying to decide which movie to go to.

The "issue" that you seem to have lost all sight of is whether someone like Ron Paul should be included in the administration if Kerry is elected as head of the EPA.

Promoting yourself as an abstract thinker who is above arguing "dogma" is self-serving twaddle.

You appear to believe that saying that Mr. Paul is a right wing libertarian, somehow makes the argument "dogmatic".

If you could lower yourself enough to indulge in the debate whether he should be in a supposedly liberal administration perhaps we could have a discourse.

So, how about presenting some of the "ideas" you seem able to talk about as abstractions yet are unable to defend.

Such as: Why do you think that someone who believes that "property rights" supercede environmental protection should be placed in charge of the "Environmental PROTECTION Agency"?

Dispassionate, impassionate, or impassioned responses to the question are welcome.

And, here's some axioms for you. Cut to the chase. Get to the point.

[indigobusiness]

79. When you stop running in your pedantic circles

you might be able to see the point I tried to get across.

There are important distinctions in the differences I referred to...if you aren't willing to acknowledge them, that is your choice.

I won't argue ideas childishly. Nor will I participate in anyones silly dogmatism.

Examine your own statements to see the ridiculousness of them.

[libcurious]

82. what is wrong

with "property rights"
a person should be able to have full control over their property.

[AntiCoup2K4]

37. A right wing Libertarian in charge of the EPA??

That could be more disasterous than what Bush did to it... :scared:

Ron Paul is more useful right where he is - taking on the neocon shitbags within his own party.

[indigobusiness]

44. Why disasterous?

Corruption and special interests are the plague upon the EPA. An honest broker might open the issues up to honest scrutiny.

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. A right wing Libertarian would be likely to think that the EPA .....

...IS the "corrupt special interest". Some of these guys think absolutely everything in the federal budget (except the huge military budget, naturally) is "unneccessary big government spending".

Endangered species? Fuck 'em.
Regulating corporate pollution? Nah, let em regulate themselves (look how successful Junior's been with that one :puke: )

Arsenic in the water? Hey we could all use more minerals in the diet, right?

Radioactive nuclear waste? Just throw it in the backyard, it'll be fine.

Yeah, this is who we want running the Environmental Protection Agency.

[indigobusiness]

59. Perhaps, a stereotypical RW Libertarian might .....

Ron Paul is hardly that.

I know the arguments for cleaning things up. I've fought for them my entire life.

edited to say that an effective EPA is not one that swings from one extreme to the other, but one that finds a practical middle ground.

[Beatrix]

69. Here is what you need to do

Go look at the libertarian platform. Realize that Paul supports that platform. Then put 2 and 2 together.

I think you're just a little naive when it comes to the libertarians. When I first heard about them they sounded good on the outside, but when I started reading what they supported I realized just how right wing they were.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. He aligns with Dems on social issues, but aligns with repubs on economics

Do you really want more free-trade nuts in the Admin?

[Andy_Stephenson]

58. Kerry is a free trader...

So Ron would fit right in.

[GreenPartyVoter]

77. Yeah :^(

[BurtWorm]

10. Ron Paul has a history of making racially offensive statements.

He was a doctrinaire Libertarian if I remember correctly, who had a tendency to conflate race and poverty. Rack Jite used to list many of his truly stupid neanderthalisms on his Web site. Drop Ron Paul like a hot potato. He's a dead end.

[theophilus]

13. Thanks for the info. That would be a pure negative, for sure.

n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Oh, swell, Dem + Anti-environmentalist Libertarian Capitalist.

Hell, why not Berlusconi? Then we could be the DemoFascist party.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

15. I'm a Texan

and I'm sorry but I don't want any Republicans on the Dem ticket. I am voting Democrat this year, all the way. If I wanted a Republican, I'd vote Republican. Period.

You don't see the Republicans courting Dems, do you now?

Why should we?

Nah, I wouldn't like it.

[theophilus]

17. As a Texan, who would you like to see as VP?

Is there anyone that would tilt Texas to the blue? Who do you favor?

[Andy_Stephenson]

36. Ann Richards

VEEP!

[indigobusiness]

48. MA RICHARDS!!! YOWzaaaaa

Now, why didn't I think of that?

I'd love that.

Barring that, there should be a Cabinet position created for her...something like:

'Secretary of the Spanking of Naughty Ex-Presidents'.

[Andy_Stephenson]

56. Indeed...

I love Ann...she is feisty!

[Beatrix]

70. If you found someone that would tilt Texas blue

then you've found the person that will tilt every blue state red.

[Touchdown]

18. NO! He's a Libertairan in disguise.

What part of "DEMOCRATIC TICKET" don't people understand? We are not THIS desperate. Repubs lost the last presidential election, they barely scraped by in 2002, and they hold a WHOPPING ONE SEAT MAJORITY in the Senate...Where is this "all is lost unless we sleep with the enemy" coming from?

[AntiCoup2K4]

39. Where is this "all is lost unless we sleep with the enemy" coming from?

That would be from the DLC :puke:

[Andy_Stephenson]

41. One party rule

The New Centrists

[liberalron]

20. I would rather see Rep. Paul

run against George W.

[theophilus]

22. That would be Great!

Is there any chance he could attract enough votes away from Bush to really make a difference?

[Beatrix]

72. Not a chance

He'd get about as much votes as the libertarians usually get.

Best thing to do is have someone like Moore (religious christian nut) run 3rd party. THIS is the real repub base. Get someone to cater to the christian fundamentalists (no abortion, anti-gay, bible in schools/gov, etc) and you've just destroyed the repub base.

Christian fundamentalists are PISSED with Bush right now. (because he has not accomplished the primary agenda) Unfortunately these people will not go with Kerry because they are entirely opposed to him. However, if they had a 3rd party "hero" to turn to (Moore) that supported their goals...

[LoneStarLiberal]

21. Paul's A Sore Spot for the House Republicans

Paul was a Libertarian Party figure for many years and if my memory serves me correctly, he was the Libertarian Party's Presidential candidate on at least two occasions.

Side note: I saw this weekend that the Libertarians have nominated another Texan, Michael Badnarik, to be their Presidential candidate this year.

I know the Republicans here in Texas and at the national level are not particularly thrilled at having Paul in the 14th District. He is a sore spot for his Congressional neighbor, Tom "The Chimp's Pimp" Delay, and his program of unquestioning top-down voting.

[lastknowngood]

23. We don't give a damn about TexASS they're not going to vote

for anyone but the shrub or another Nazi. I have been to TexASS twice and can tell you that the KKK are the liberals in most of this state of hate. Anyone with a brain would have already left that shithole and moved to someplace closer to the civilized world.

[Andy_Stephenson]

27. Lot of hateful words there!

My Mom has a brain! She unfortunately is 84 and can't leave the "shithole". Bush is not a Texan...as he is on other fronts, he is a fraud. There are many good Dems in Texas and are working for change. Quit the Texas Bashing!

[lastknowngood]

49. I know Bush* ain't from TexASS but they voted for this piece of

crap and will again. If you live there then you know it to. Just try driving around that state of hate with a bumper sticker that in anyway promotes peace or any sane idea, you'll get threats and abuse as well as assaults. I assaulted twice in TexASS just for passing through, luckily I was prepared for it and prevailed. What bumper stickers do you have on your car?

[Andy_Stephenson]

55. I have

BU**
SH**

On a Texas Flag

and Regime Change 2004

and a Pink Triangle.

[Beatrix]

73. Denial

As another person living in this state I can see you are in complete denial. (or you have never been to a sane state to have a basis of comparison)

The only state worse than this one is Alabama (by far). AL currently has the largest amount of Klan groups when compared to any other state, and TX is in the top 10. If this state goes blue then Kerry will have won EVERY state in the union except for perhaps Alabama. In other words - anyone who even suggests this state will go blue is living in dream land.

I will admit the large citys in this state have liberal pockets (thank god), however I have yet to see ANY rural part of the state that is not solid repub. And I have been everywhere in this state - north, south, east, west.

I am considering moving to Mass in a few months. Can't find good work here, and I'm tired of the right wing shit. Plus it will feel great to vote against the marriage amendment.

Hell, I ordered a Kerry bumper sticker but I can't put it on the car because of risk of threat, assault, or vehicle damage. I'll just have to put it somewhere in the house.

I generally consider any car with out 10 american flags on it (usually tattered and destroyed by the elements), a bush/cheney sticker, or "I kiss my wife with my fist" to be dems who like me can't even have a Kerry bumper sticker. (yes, I exzagerated about the fist sticker... but I've seen a lot that were pretty out there including a lot recently that say "Hope president Bush honors gods covenant with Israel" whatever the hell that means)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

28. NICE attitude there buddy

For your information, I am a seventh generation Texan and a liberal Democrat through and through. So are my parents, so were my grandparents and my great-grandparents. My husband, my aunts and uncles, friends. All liberal Dems.

But why am I talking to someone who honestly believes everyone here is going to vote for Chucklenuts?

Have fun with your stereotypes and generalizations. You apparently had a bad experience with some of our resident freepers here, and for that, I am sorry. But don't paint us all with that ugly brush. There are liberals here fighting the good fight every day and I'm one of them.

Sure I could move to Portland or somewhere and not have to work so hard. But I choose to stay here, where generations of my very liberal family have lived, worked and died and I choose to make a difference HERE.

Edited to add I'll thank you to remember that shrub is NOT a Texan. Never has been, never will be. He's a damn carpetbagger. And that's the nicest thing I can say about the bastage.

[Andy_Stephenson]

31. Thanks...

you said it far better than I.

[lastknowngood]

57. Well your a slow learner. Your not making a difference there.

TexASS is progressive on no issue and it's future will be MUCH more Reich wing as I'm sure you know. It just seams that the state attracts assholes, bigots and morans. It's like the old Jewish joke.
List the great Jewish sports stars. Short list
List the great Liberal Texans. Damn short list.

[Andy_Stephenson]

60. Ann Richards

LBJ
Andy Stephenson
J.Frank Dobie
Maury Maverick
Mike Lavigne
Willie Nelson
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Bonnie Rait
Edie Brickell
Molly Ivins

Shall I go on?

[Maestro]

33. Please...

[Andy_Stephenson]

35. In a word...

yes they are.

[meg]

54. As a Liberal Texan I want to thank you for your thoughtful remarks

You are an icon and a role model. I'll just start packing now. So kind of you to point things out, because obviously I have no brains.

[JayS]

83. Be sure and...

...let the door hit you on the butt on the way out.

[JohnKleeb]

24. one word no

Libertarians can be just as bad if not worse than republicans well on economics.

[Andy_Stephenson]

25. A Kerry/Ru Paul ticket...

yeah what a hoot. Appropriate on a level or two.

[Renew Deal]

26. hah, you just beat me to it.

[Andy_Stephenson]

29. Gotta be quick...

and nimble. God she is hot!

[JohnKleeb]

32. you mean he ;)

hehe :D.

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. No I mean She....

When it looks that hot...it's a she!

[JohnKleeb]

43. lol fine its a she

though I beg to difer.

[Andy_Stephenson]

47. Drag Queens when in drag...

make no mistake are she! I was taught that from a very early gay age.

[JohnKleeb]

30. haha now that would be needlses to say interesitng

[AntiCoup2K4]

45. If Kerry chose RuPaul as a running mate, would Chimpy dump Uncle Dick....

..and replace him with Anndrew Coulter? :evilgrin:

[Andy_Stephenson]

53. Here are the Bush Picks for Secy. of Defence and

NSA Chief.

[TexasBushwhacker]

42. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Ron Paul is all for individual rights and state rights, EXCEPT for the right for a woman to have a safe, legal abortion. He is and always has been VEHEMENTLY anti-choice. He's also against the US supporting the UN and the IMF. Read some of his weekly columns to see where his head is really at:

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/welcome.htm

Sorry, but he's not someone I want a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

[mzmolly]

46. Poooooooooooop!

:hurts:

[meg]

50. NO!!!!!!

Ron Paul is unhinged and anti-woman!!!!! Why is it that pro Ron Paul sh*** appears periodically? He is NOT a good guy. Yes, he occasionally speaks out against Bush. Yes, he is a wingnut.

I lived in Austin for over 27 years. Ron Paul's district covers part of the Austin area.

[reprehensor]

51. I like Paul, but he's no Dem.

He still thinks that Clinton was 'Wagging the Dog' when he tried to assasinate Bin Laden.

Get the fuck over it.

Still, he represents more of a true fiscal, Constitutional-respecting conservative than practically any other Republican besides McCain.

He would drive away Dems and assorted lefties in droves. He would hold no appeal for younger voters who are going to come out in droves this year. They don't want to be drafted.

[NoPasaran]

61. I don't understand the fascination

some people have with ANTI-CHOICE REPUBLICANS for the DEMOCRATIC ticket. At least McCain is a rational person. Ron Paul is a crackpot.

[sendero]

66. Libertarians...

... are products of arrested development. They are like right wingers except that they actually think their arguments are moral.

If Kerry actually picked a running mate like Paul or McCain, I will not vote for anyone. I like to think I'm a pragmatist, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Lou_C]

74. My eyes are bad I thought you had Rue Paul down as a running mate

:shrug:

[legin]

75. Secretary of State would be interesting

He is spot on when it comes to foreign policy. Possibly a bit isolationist by instinct but he does understand what is going on foreign policy-wise on the planet at the moment. Also AIPAC would throw a wobbler, which could be interesting.

[Texican]

80. Yep

I would not even hold my nose to vote for Bush lite.