Where do you think Joe Lieberman's loyalties lie?

[dolstein]

Poll question: Where do you think Joe Lieberman's loyalties lie?

[VermontDem2004]

1. Definately the DLC

[ilpostino]

2. Haunted by his past

I believe I once saw a picture of Joe and Jeff Greenfield at a draft card burning as undergraduates at Yale, and I believe he feels he has to get as far away from his passionate youth as possible. I also think he buys the entire DLC "vision" of Democrats as...what shall we call it?...compassionate conservatives.

[Cocoa]

3. freeper lurkers are going to come here

vote "Israel" and then see! Liberals are antisemites!

That's just one of the many ways I think this poll is a bad idea.

[AndyTiedye]

6. Lieberman(Likud, CT) Attacked the "Road Map" for "leaning on Israel"

Even though everybody knew the "Road Map" is only for show
it is too much "pressure" on Israel for Joe.

[edzontar]

14. I voted Israel, and i'm no freeper

And no anti-semite.

Joe is just one of too many Dems who seem to support any insane thing that any Israeli government does.

Sorry.

[Walt Starr]

42. Me too

Thye only reason I voted Israel, however, is because I believe his real loyalties lie with not so much Israel, but with Sharon.

[Julien Sorel]

4. No one answer is correct here,

and wouldn't be for any candidate or person. I'm not a Lieberman fan, but I do think he's a loyal Democrat. The DLC is part of the Democratic Party; how can loyalty to it be considered greater than loyalty to the DP? He's loyal to the U.S., but also to Israel. I suspect that, like most American Jews, if forced to choose, he'd pick the U.S., but the current political climate is such that he gets to have his cake and eat it too, since no one wants to point out that Israel's interests and ours diverged some time ago, if, indeed, we ever truly shared interests besides a desire to keep Arabs weak and divided. Of course he's loyal to himself; so is everyone.

So I'm forced to wonder what the purpose of this poll was, and beginning to regret the feature exists, since there are far too many of them.

[Squeech]

9. If he were a loyal Democrat

why would he keep saying so many nasty things about other Dems?

One of the reasons the Repukes revere Reagan was because of his so-called Eleventh Commandment: "Thou shalt speak no evil about other Republicans." Considering that the Repukes are the party that believes in competition rather than cooperation, the fact that he made that stick is no small achievement, and it's certainly part of why they're kicking our asses now (second only to the fact that they cheat). They're still projecting a pretty solid phalanx. One Texas Republican sided with the Killer D's, and I didn't hear Dewhurst talking about revoking *his* parking privileges, did you?

But Blowhard Lieberman thinks it's more important to throw mud at his left than to demonstrate party unity. How craven is that? Does he really think traditional Democratic policies no longer count with the electorate, or has he decided that he can get more media attention by attacking his own than by standing firm?

Either way, I think he's despicable. I hope Iowa and New Hampshire eat his lunch for him.

[Julien Sorel]

25. You make some valid points,

and as I said, I'm not a Lieberman fan. That being said, I think of loyalty in terms of what Lieberman would be likely to do under many circumstances. Would he try to sabotage other candidates during an election? I don't think so. I think, by and large, a Democratic president would be able to depend on Lieberman to support his or her agenda. I think Lieberman would work with other Democrats to get them elected. Yes, he's to the right of many people on this message board, and he's even further to the right of me. But he's still a Democrat. Somebody else said this a while ago: if Lieberman was a Republican, people would look at this voting record, and hope he switched parties; it's only because he's 'one of us' that makes people dislike him so much.

By the way, Reagan was an exception. Bush attacked McCain, the senior Bush attacked Reagan ('Voodoo economics,' one of the great barbs in electioneering), and in this primary, Dean has been pretty aggressive in attacking fellow Dems -- but no one accuses him of disloyalty. People should look really hard at what they say sometimes. When push comes to shove, most of the candidates out there will pull together and back the Democratic nominee, and that's the measure of loyalty I use. If Lieberman doesn't do that, then he deserves every nasty thing people say about him; until then, I'll consider him a loyal Dem.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. Himself.

Whatever works for Joe is good for Joe. Probably true for all the other candidates, unfortunately.

[David Zephyr]

7. Lieberman's Loyalties

are certainly to himself and to the U.S.

I am saddened, Dolstein, that you feel that you even needed to post this poll. Of course, Lieberman loves the U.S. Anyone here that says otherwise is a hack.

However, Lieberman has sunk like a stone and is still sinking in the polls because he not only has pissed off the activisit base in the party by continually to criticize them and marginalize their issues, but also because he is not connecting with voters anywhere in the country.

His luster from Al Gore's campaign has now long dulled.

I wish he had the dignity to look at his now 4% standing in the polls and graciously bow out...without attacking his fellow candidates. Unfortunately, it would be out of character for him to do so. But...you never know.

I have to hand it to you, Dolstein. You really make one hell of an advocate for a candidate. If every Democrat could get that enthusiastic about their candidates, we'd run Bush out of the White House in no time.

[dolstein]

12. The only thing that saddens me

is that in this day and age, a substantial percentage of so-called liberals believe that Joe Lieberman is loyal to Israel and not the U.S.

[Julien Sorel]

27. You set up your

poll so that people had to make an either-or choice; obviously you wanted it that way. Self-pity at this point would be hypocrisy, since it's obvious you got what you wanted out of it.

[Cocoa]

32. link?

what you say might be true. Can you point to a REAL poll that supports that idea.

You do realize the above poll means absolutely nothing, don't you?

[MiltonLeBerle]

8. The Insurance Industry first and foremost.

Then I would imagine GE.

[StandWatie]

10. exactly..

[Walt Starr]

43. That was my first choice, but it wasn't on the poll

So I picked Israel because out of everything on the poll, that came closest.

:shrug:

[VOX]

11. The DLC, his public piousness, and corporate $$$.

And not necessarily in that order.

[poskonig]

13. Multinational corporations.

Lieberman is a total BITCH for the pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, big finance, defense contractors, et cetera.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

15. You forgot the most obvious choice....

the Republican Party

[sujan]

16. Tom Delay's loyalties lies on Israel

http://www.majorityleader.gov

[Noordam]

17. Mainly Himself

All you have to do is look at the 2000 election and ask the question, why did he also run for Senator at the same time as VP.

[jos]

18. Trick poll--beware

Dolstein's is trying to lure enough people to say Israel so that he can say, Ah ha, people don't like Lieberman because he's Jewish.

[bicentennial_baby]

19. Yep

A wee bit obvious, eh?

[Jacobin]

20. nailed it

This will be "evidence" of anti-israel sentiment. Cute. How could anyone oppose any of Israel's policies? Cause if they do they are ________fill in the inevitable blank.

[KoKo]

23. That's unkind......most of us know and Lieberman has said he's a staunch

supporter of Israel. It's part of "who he is." It's on the table for all to see......I've not been down here in the I/P theads but I pick up that Lieberman is in total support of Isreal. Let it out there. If DU'ers are with Lieberman then let it tally. It's only a very casual poll amongst friends here.....What's the problem?

Edited: Typo's.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Himself.

Joe thinks himself a statesman. Alas, his mirror is distorted by overuse.

[Lexiemae]

22. Lynne

I can't vote, I think they lie with Lynne Cheney.

[AntiCoup2K4]

24. Why Holy Joe appears to have split loyalties....

...is that he, like the PNACers, puts the wishes of the Israeli government (i.e. Sharon and the Likudniks) above that which is truly best for the United States of America. Joe, to this day, is screaming loudly that Saddam Hussein was a threat despite the overwhelming lack of any evidence to support that conjecture. No, he was not the only one among the current candidates who voted in favor of the BCE/PNAC war. But he IS the only one of them who still believes the war was justified and that Bush had a valid reason.

Why is that?

Could it be that the threat Joe saw, was NOT to the United States, but to Israel?

Would I expect a Senator who happens to be an Orthodox Jew to be concerned about the fate of Israel? Of course. It's even logical for a US Senator, any Senator to be concerned about a potential threat to one of this nation's allies, be it Israel or any other country.

Where Joe and the PNAC'ers go over the line is where they put the United States in jeopardy in the name of what may or may not be an actual threat to Israel, but is what Ariel the fucking pig Sharon SAYS is a threat.

And when a bastard like Sharon, who isn't even fit to run his own country starts running ours, that's when I have a problem with those who support him. And their party and religious affiliations have nothing to do with it.

[edzontar]

26. Thanks for saying this better than I could...

I think we have ruined this country, perhaps for all time, in the course of doing Sharon's dirty work...

Thanks alot Joe.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

28. What will you folks say

when Jews leave the Democratic party en masse in 04 and vote for Bush because of this kind of shit? You are absolutely wrong when you say most Jews take a far left position on Israel, and with all due respect, most of you know nothing about being Jewish, considering that most of you aren't. Jews are typically very liberal on social issues but conservative on foreign policy, especially when it comes to Israel. Bash AIPAC at your own risk, just don't complain when it comes back to bite you in the face.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

29. By the way

I voted that Joe's loyalties lie with the Democratic Party.

[dfong63]

30. give me a break

What will you folks say when Jews leave the Democratic party en masse in 04 and vote for Bush because of this kind of shit?

first, i don't think it'll happen. i believe that if push came to shove, most American Jews would put the interests of America first. but if i'm wrong about that, then i'd say - they're nothing more than another special interest group whose power needs to be checked rather than appeased. that's the same reaction i'd have if Arnold Schwarzenegger tried to put the interests of Austria first; or if Cruz Bustamante tried to put the interests of Mexico first; if Norm Mineta tried to put the interests of Japan first, etc etc.

second, almost all the dem candidates are grovelling in support of Israel too.

[SyracuseDemocrat]

31. Yeah,

and I bet you hate that last part, don't you? Too bad. :)

[MisterP]

37. whaddya mean "too bad"?

[Aaron]

33. Got links for your claims about the political positions of Jewish people?

[jiacinto]

34. Well

This thread shows that people have problems with Lieberman that have nothing to do with his political position. It shows how bigoted some people are toward Jewish people.

[wellstone_democrat]

36. I'm hardly a self-hating Jew

and support the State of Israel more than most---which doesn't mean its current government, btw. Not all opposition to Lieberman is "anti-semitic" I'd say very little of it is. First, those who opposed the current government in Israel are not by definition anti-semitic and those who see Lieberman as one of many who are too supportive of this regime as wrong and even discounting the interests of our nation in these positions might even be thinking of OUR interests in the world first---not simply "hating Jews"

Lieberman's run for the Senate concurrent with his VP run was more than problematic for most of us. It smacked of self-interest. His liberal stances on many issues stand in stark contrast with his self-interested support of certain aggressive industries---and many of the votes in support of pharmaceutical and insurance industries are far from "liberal" in any sense. Sure, CT means "insurance" and its understandable that he's watching that local economy but pharmaceuticals is more a NJ operation and the only reason I can see for his support of that industry to the degree that he does is either self-interest or pro-corporatism to a degree that is alarming.

There are many reasons to dislike Lieberaman, Dean or Clark. It all depends on a full range of positions and/or actions over the years. But, for *this* Jew, "anti-semitism" isn't one and I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that it isn't for most DU'ers who regularly praise a number of Jewish Democrats.

[jiacinto]

39. Well

What about LBJ and Lloyd Bentsen? They both ran for re-election while they were on the ticket. Why didn't that "smack of self-interest".

As for "antisemitism not being an issue", then why do many DUers in the poll above say that Lieberman is more "loyal to Israel". Substitute JFK with Lieberman and Israel with the Vatican/Pope and you get something either.

[wellstone_democrat]

40. It doesn't quite fit

There were not issues that JFK faced that brought up the issue of foreign policy interests that could be debated as more in the interests of our ally "the Vatican state" than of the US. Perhaps if there had been, the case could be made.

The problem with Lieberman---and, as I said, I'm a strong proponent of the State of Israel's existence with the caveat that the current government is dismal---is that his extremely conservative position on matters of potential damage to the US in its relations with the rest of the world can logically and fairly be read NOT as anti-semitic but as concern about Lieberman's failure to look to US interests FIRST.

To wonder about, or to conclude that Lieberman is currently bending too far to our ally's interests to the detriment of our own is a decision that can be arrived at without bias or hate but out of a philosophical position on foreign affairs.

As for self-interested politicians like the two iconic Texans you mentioned---you betcha' they were looking out for their own interests and I have no desire to defend those choices at all---just as I find Lieberman's "double run" repugnant, I find Johnson and Bentsen's to be indefensible.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. "Bigoted towards the Jewish people"??

I just read every response in the thread. I saw not one word said against "the Jewish People". There were attacks on Joe's politics and questions about his loyalty to the Israeli government. There were attacks against the current Israeli Government and it's policies.

Would attacking the the politics of Al Sharpton or Colin Powell make one a racist?

Would attacking the likes of Charles Taylor or Idi Amin make one anit-black.

How about Bush? Bigoted against WASPS if you dare question him?

Methinks we have a red herring here.

Please point out any remarks made in the thread that are anti-semitic. I must have missed them.

BTW - I voted that Joe's main loyalty was to Joe. I don't hold his interest in Israeli politics against him, I just disagree with them. Asking whether his vote to support BushCorps war was influenced by his concern for Israel seems a legitimate question to me. Or, are we not to ask questions?

[Walt Starr]

44. No, I think it shows how loaded the poll really was

An honest poll would have at least listed the Corporatists or even theInsurance Companies, because that's where all of Lieberman's loyalties lie.

Since it didn't I picked Israel because he is a shill for Sharon and Likud, IMO.

[Kolesar]

45. These polls "frame the issue" and "lead" the participants to a conclusion

Especially with the dry, sarcastic implications that any word such as "Israel" is likely to cause.

Viewing Holy Joe's story on Cuban-Americans, the insurance companies, and his criticism of Clinton, I can only say that he acts for his own self interest.

[redeye]

35. The DLC...

...he's no more loyal to Israel than JFK was to the pope, and he's not loyal to the Dems so much as he is to his type of Dems - the DLC.

[goobergunch]

38. DLC (n/t)