My Christian friend thinks he will see the end of the world.

[hexola]

One of my best friends is a Menonite/fundy. He was pot-smoking Deadhead hippie-type in our youth.

The past few years I have seen him return to his faith (from his parents). He is very devout and active in his Church...but he still smokes dope and is pretty much himself...we hang out regualry.

Recently, he said "He wouldn't live to see 50." "Why," I asked. "Are the men in your family short lived?"

"No" he replied. "Things are gonna be changing soon..." I was a bit shocked. I didn't persue his statement...but I knew what he meant.

I feel sad for him...I think it's one thing to believe...and to have faith. But isn't it a bit vain to think...of all the billions of souls that have lived - you will be the one to see the end/return? Hasn't every generation had folks that thought they would be the ones...? Does it even matter if your are alive when/if "he returns" or not???

The scary part...is this the kind of stuff George W. believes...? Does Bush believe Christ is coming back within the next 20 years...? Is this the stuff out foreign policy is based on...???

Is it?

[nickinSTL]

1. does Bush believe?

You remember when Bush was asked about his legacy, and he replied that it didn't matter because we'd all be dead in 10 years?

The problem with this stuff is that Christians have been saying this since there were Christians (not that millennarian belief is restricted to Christians)

The writers of the gospels (around 30-60 AD, I believe) thought that the world would end within their lifetimes. And it's been the same throughout history. Though it tends to pick up steam around certain dates, like 1000, 1500, 2000.

[Name removed]

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[hexola]

12. Welcome to DU - bobroberts

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[nickinSTL]

20. Sorry I can't find it

on the web.

And not having the search function on DU, can't find it here.

It was several months ago...I'm kinda surprised I can't find it, but maybe someone else will be able to track it down.

[TeeYiYi]

24. This is what I found . . .

. . . from an interview with Bob Woodward:

How does the president think history will judge him for going to war in Iraq?

“After the second interview with him on Dec. 11, we got up and walked over to one of the doors. There are all of these doors in the Oval Office that lead outside. And he had his hands in his pocket, and I just asked, ‘Well, how is history likely to judge your Iraq war,’” says Woodward.

“And he said, ‘History,’ and then he took his hands out of his pocket and kind of shrugged and extended his hands as if this is a way off. And then he said, ‘History, we don’t know. We’ll all be dead.’”

But it doesn't say 10 years.:shrug:

TYY

[CityZen-X]

13. Entitlement Of This Regime

The "Thrill Kill Cult!"

[lapfog_1]

21. This has been in dispute for a long time (nearly 2000 years)

See, someone named John wrote the Book of Revelations sometime
around 95 C.E., apparently while living on the island of Patmos
in a cave. What is disputed is whether this is the Apostle John,
or someone else who is also named John. The writing style and
vocabulary are much different than other works authored by the
apostle. The Book of Revelations' inclusion in the canonized Bible
has always been debated. But the Fundies love it so. And almost
every generation of Christians have "seen the signs" that the
"end times" are near.

However, it's one thing to believe, as our President does, that
the end is near, it's quite another to take steps to bring it
about. I'm very much afraid that our current President (unelected
as he is) believes that it is his duty to bring about the fulfilling
of endtime prophecy.

[truthspeaker]

to answer your last two questions: YES

Securing Israel and Babylon are very important to Bush and his Dominionist backers; they think they can impress Jesus that they are guarding his holy sites for him, plus they hope to have dibs on slaughtering any Jews who fail to convert after the Second Coming.

[progressive_voice]

49. They're like people who shoot the family before killing themselves n/t

.

[Gato Moteado]

2. if bush gets another 4 years....

...then your friend is probably right.

[pagerbear]

3. Didn't Ashcroft say something to that effect to Congress?

Or was it Cheney?

[calico1]

4. This probably has to do with their policies

towards the environment, etc. They don't care if they destroy it because the world is going to end anyway. While your friend doesn't sound violent the trouble is Bush and his henchmen have power. Their reckless policies can affect us all. I really do think that there are people who not only believe in the end of the world but who are actively trying to accelerate it happening. Pretty scary.

I remember back in the early 70's I knew some kids that were Jehova's Witnesses. Their parents took them out of school and quit their jobs that year (can't remember exactly which one) because they thought the end was coming. The scary thing is otherwise they acted like normal people.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Jehovah's Witnesses said the world would end in 1975.

They were absolutely, positively sure that was it.

They were wrong.

[arbusto_baboso]

47. I don't get it with religious fanatics and environmental policy....

Remember James Watt? He once said something to the effect that we had to use up all the world's natural resources because the world was going to end soon. This admin is similar in approach.

But if you're a believer, how does this make any friggin' sense? Let me draw an analogy: Say you own a house. You rent it out to a family on a 5 year lease. So, about 4 1/2 years into the lease, this family decides they have to basically trash the house before the end of the lease. Would you be pleased? OF COURSE NOT!!!!!!

Rapture/Millenialists are fucking dipshits.

[tanyev]

5. What scares me is that

they may well make the end of the world happen, whether Christ is involved or not.

[elehhhhna]

6. the height of arrogance to think(hope) the apocalypse will happen on his..

..watch. The Bible says you won't know when it's happening, duh.

[gratuitous]

8. A Mennonite fundy?

That would be a rare beastie, in my experience. Might he perhaps be Methodist?

In any event, I can state from personal experience that you can live on the edge of forever only for so long. Your friend will hopefully tire of his obsession, and begin living a life that's more worthy of the Gift.

[hexola]

11. No - the old PA Mennonite churches...

...Seem to a a hot bed of fundamentalism. Most of the women don't wear the "vegetable strainers" bonnets anymore...Not sure how much weight Mr. Menno has in these groups...

The Agriculturist culture is dying...replaced by corporate. The farms have been sold. The family is broken up. I think some of these smaller churches have lost track of their founding principles...and have been taken over by more fundamentalist members...

I've lived in this region for 30 years...the character of Menno churches has definitely changed...

[noonwitch]

18. The Mennonites seem like good people, whatever their politics

They are always first, with the red cross, when there is a disaster at home (floods, storms, tornados).

[htuttle]

9. Was he wearing a track suit?

Has he castrated himself before the comet gets here?

Sorry. He's just nutz.

I wonder sometimes whether the Powers That Be actually believe that crap. History tells me they probably don't, but I still wonder.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[gratuitous]

27. Wow, that's a pretty broad brush

Fortunately, I'm a bit too busy housing the homeless, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, and visiting the sick and imprisoned to address your spurious point.

[Ladyhawk]

33. Aren't you supposed to be giving alms in secret? n/t

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[WoodrowFan]

52. guess we're not intelligent.

and CHRISTIANS don't know where they are being smug and obnoxious? Guess a few atheists have the same trouble.

[CrispyQ]

14. He should read "To Your Scattered Bodies Go"

...by Philip Jose Farmer. It's fiction, and in my opinion, so is a good deal of the Bible. It's a story about the afterlife & is every bit as valid as anyone else's claims & beliefs.

[JohnnyRingo]

15. I've heard a lot of references to "Terminal Generation"

As if we should be honored that Jesus waited long enough for us to see the "Rapture".

Apparently Cheney isn't buying into it, as he lines his and his buddies pockets with enough cashola to last decades.

Why do people call them religious nuts?

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Not all Christians take the same view of "end times"

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Ripley]

17. I recently drove through my neighboring state where...

There is a huge religious compound (can't recall which ones they are) with a very tall granite tower in front by the highway. It is engraved with the saying Jesus is Coming Soon.

I've passed that tower on occasion since 1995. So it is at least 10 years old. Do the Rapture believing people have a different dictionary than me? Is "Soon" in geological terms, as in the Earth was created 'yesterday.'?

:crazy:

[MisterP]

30. it's the "this time for real" problem

just look at the transhumanists:
1958: we'll have superhuman computers by 1984!
1982: by 2001!
2004: by 2020!
and so on

[Ripley]

44. Yeah...that's funny MisterP!

The science and technology world also has made ridiculous claims. Where's my flying car?

What's a transhumanist?

[MisterP]

46. someone who relishes the day we can start "uploading" ourselves

into computers. Soon, they say, computers will become "transhuman," surpassing the abilities and sentience of a computer. How many gigs does a memory have? It's almost like they're clinging ridiculously to the assumption that brains are computers, but I'm not allowed to say that.
And where's my domed city?! And my cable-car space elevator ride to geostationary orbit?! And why do we have paper and cash and religion and emotions? And our antigrav belts and tight suits?! And low-orbit honeymoons! I DEMAND low-orbit honeymoons!! And my plane ticket to Mars!
I personally blame Arthur C. Clarke. :P

[Ripley]

48. Ohhhh, THOSE people!

Like the guy who has chips embedded into his body so he can simply talk and the Internet inside him will convey his thoughts to his email box?

Well, I'd hate to blame Spider Robinson or ACC, cause they provided me with great reads.

I want my transporter NOW.

[JohnnyRingo]

65. Now that you mention it.....

...I always thought that by now it would be a lot like "The Jetsons".

[Ilsa]

22. I think it's narcissistic to think this.

I also think it is almost mildly hysterical, and I don't mean in a funny sense, but as a personality disorder, like histionic narcissism.

Of course, these non-ecology-type politicians may make it come true. I think James Watt said this in the 1980's also.

[hexola]

23. Isn't all of Christianity a bit narcissistic...

They can't seem to come to grips with the end of their earthly lives...a bit self-important...IMO.

They seem to believe that their soul is so important that it can never die...it goes on and on...eternal!

No fun to think about...but like a lightbulb...the soul grows dim and finally burns out...IMO

[barb162]

25. every generation has these people

who say the end is near and it never happens. But it will if Bush gets in another 4 years. He will destroy everything with his wars or his assaults on the environment. It is amazing how large a segment of the country is going fundie...truly scary. How can one rational person after another go fundie?

[hexola]

26. I'm blaming Ecstasy...

The two fundie fellows I know were big time into Ecstasy (the drug) before they "saw the light"

They were getting pretty screwy mentally before they became Christians...

They are both still daily MJ users...

[Ripley]

28. Weird...I knew a guy in college...

Who made the Fundie turn after a bad LSD trip. I hadn't seen him in a few years and ran into him on campus. I embraced him and before I could even say "where have you been?" he pulled out a brochure and started babbling in nonsensical terms. I said "nice to see you but I have to go." Later I found out he had tripped for like 3 days, came down hard and fearful. I guess the church helped him...not! It seemed to me he was still tripping when I saw him that day, just on "Eternity" instead of on "pretty colors."

[barb162]

29. people I know

who were progressives all their lives have turned fundie in the last ten years and they were never on drugs. It seems instead of going to a shrink they see a minister for solace (and it's cheaper hourly rates, like zero $$) and then get turned into fundies. I see this happening too often and there are SO many of them. since you cannot have rational discourse of any kind with these people, how do you change them back into rational thinkers. Unless than happens you cannot have a rational political system. Without a rational political system, what happens to the US? This is no longer a small segment of the population. the country has shifted to the right.

[hexola]

31. The one guy started with some good acid...the X came later...

He was confident - that the best LSD he had ever taken - had shown him god. And he was very adamant and serious about this...really serious.

The whole Jesus/fundie thing came after a few months of regular X use...

[barb162]

37. so does he still take it so he can keep seeing god?

these people really interest me.

I wonder what would happen if you said you saw god in a dream and god told you to tell everyone to vote Democrat?

[Ripley]

45. LOL!

Good point.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with someone seeing God or becoming aware of the beautiful nature of LIFE by means of religion or drugs. I have a major problem when they try to impose their views upon ME.

[barb162]

63. reminds me of a time a religious type rang the doorbell

and started telling me he saw Jesus and Jesus wanted him to convert people to this guy's religion, which I won't mention here. I'm like "uh, yeah, right." And then I told him well the Angel Gabriel appeared to me and told me to tell you to leave.

I just love it when these people come to the door like missionaries and I am some pagan, heathen, stupe or something and I am ripe for the picking.

[hexola]

60. No apparently this particular trip was "the one"....

He's certainly done it hundreds of times...but this was supposedly the best stuff...like no other he had ever done.

He seemed very confident in this experience...

[skygazer]

32. Religion in general tends to be vain

I've always thought it was the height of arrogance for people to believe that they were created "in god's image". I mean, how vain is that?

It's vain to think that only people who believe as you do have the "right" answer or that they'll be the only ones "saved".

All religions are based on fear to a great extent. Fear of death and of the unknown. Those are the main questions they attempt to answer - where did we come from and where do we go when we die? They answer people's need to feel some control over their lives. Of course they are going to believe that they are special - that's the whole idea.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

38. Well, as a Christian, I do believe in the end times,

and for those of us who believe, it's not vanity. I am bothered by the politicization of prophecy though. No man knows the day or the hour when Christ will return, but sayingsomething like that we should invade Iraq to speed up the Rapture, rubs me wrong.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Tell him he's being unBiblical

since Jesus told his disciples that not even the angels in heaven know when the world will end. Tell him that the end of the world has been predicted several times within my lifetime.

When I was in graduate school, there were nutcases telling us that the world would end in 1985.

If the Bushies have the arrogance to try to make the end of the world come about, then they are not doing God's work.

[Ladyhawk]

40. Your Christian friend and my Christian friend should be...

...making collages together in a loony bin somewhere.

People, I am so disgusted with fundies right now I could cry.

[PassingFair]

64. You and me both, Lady

When some of the loonies at work start their "endtimes" talk, here's what I tell 'em, "That's HATE SPEECH" Hoping for others to burn in "hell" because they don't think in lockstep with you, or don't worship the same supreme being is just plain wicked.
Leave me behind, please!

[harper]

41. As a Christian I think your friend is pretty arrogant

to think he could possibly discern God's plans. Anyway, the early founders of the Church were convinced they'd see the return of Christ in their lifetimes. In the Middle ages, almost everyone in the Christian world was convinced that Christ would return at the first millennium. Why anyone would think they can foretell the day is beyond me.

[Cats Against Frist]

42. Over 30 Percent of Evangelicals Believe

they will see the literal events in Revelations play out, within their lifetime.

It's not just vain. IT'S MOTHERFUCKING NUTS.

[TexasBushwhacker]

43. YES

Look up Dispensationalis, Scofield Bible. There's a good overview here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html

[WoodrowFan]

50. Matthew 24:36

36 But of that day and hour (the end of the world) knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[htuttle]

53. Do you mean that blackmail won't work?

The Dispensationalists seem to think they can force God's hand by creating the conditions described in 'prophecy'.

You know -- existence of Israel: check.
Red heifer available: check (specially bred last year, IIRC).
Rebuild temple: ?

Then when they get to the bottom of the list of conditions, Jesus will come back, because he'll have to. Not very different from Medieval thaumaturgists' attempts to evoke demons, if you ask me.

They're quite mad.

[WoodrowFan]

54. nope

am betting bribes won't either.. :-)

[Christof]

51. People have been saying this since we've first started populating

the Earth.

I don't think it'll ever happen, IMO.

[Deja Q]

55. Religion has very little to do with it, ironically.

God may or may not exist, but everyone says God wants us to make our own decisions.

Well, look at our history. Bad decisions all around.

Now comes peak oil.

Your friend is right, but God had nothing to do with people oil. Human greed did.

[They_LIHOP]

59. Maybe your friend has caught wind of Peak Oil...

<Edit>
I attached to your message because its the first to mention Peak Oil, but the response is to the original post...sorry for any confusion </edit>

Everybody is here is extrapolating what the guy said w/his religiosity and assuming he refers to the Rapture, but based on what you said he said it could just as well be something else he refers to.

I am completely atheist, and I also doubt that very many of us are going to still be alive in 10 years. But that is because I know that we've hit Peak Oil (or very soon will) and from that point forward, all bets are off as to who is going to get to live and who is going to have to die.

Especially doomed are we liberals, since the fundies are obviously taking over our country, and there's not enough of us, nor are we organized enough, to stop them at this point. Once the energy crisis really gets brutal, and the common folk start to rebel outside the walls of the compounds of the Rich, they will simply round up and slaughter every liberal they can get their hands on, just like the n@zi's did in WWII.

* himself may be all caught up in the biblical/revelations prophecy BS, but the power-brokers that back him are obviously just leveraging his idiocy to put themselves in a position to arrange 'things' so that when the massive die-off (due to the inevitable return of the population to the planets natural carrying capacity), the RICH FUNDIES are going to be the ones who get to live.

I mean, when I say 'it's obvious', I literally mean that I have been watching the entire bush administration from day one w/this idea in mind, and EVERYTHING they've done has been 100% consistent with my supposition. These guys know peak oil is real, it's here, it's now, and it's eventually gonna bring war, famine, draught, disease, pestilence, death and disaster on a scale we cannot possibly fathom in our wildest dreams. And they've been taking steps for many years now to make sure that their money and their unity as 'christian' will allow THEM to be the ones that both survive, and hold all the power.

I do not consider 'life after retirement' (I'm mid-30's) as being of any concern whatsoever anymore. I figure Gaia has resources to provide for a life worth living for at MOST another 7-10 years, so beyond that, I do not plan whatsoever. The Peak Oil wars have already begun, 1 million plus barrels a day are already lost to depletion, and that rate is accelerating, probably geometrically.

A planet-wide, massive die-off of the human population is a foregone conclusion at this point, because we're dealing w/natural LAWS here. This oil we now use to sustain life is the product of the storage of the energy of sunlight striking the planet for MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of years, and we're using it all up in just over 100 years with our single-minded pursuit of profit and luxury. There are literally NO forces now in existence that will deter our world from the most rapid possible exploitation of this resource, and people who even point out the trouble we're headed for are labeled 'lunatics' by the people who don't want their little parties to ever end, nor even be told that they *might have to end*.

So, your friend is right, IMHO, even if he's reached the conclusion by different means than I. In a nutshell, we are completely f**ked at this point. We should've done something about this inevitability about 100 years ago. The 'draconian' population and conservation measures we could have taken are going to look like a walk in the park compared to the unmitigated, horrific disaster that now stares us in the face...

[hexola]

61. Talkin' rapture here...he "hates" politics...

But one of our other fundy friends (I have 3 close friends that are involved in this stuff) listens to short wave and is all about peak oil...

He sees the Rapture and Peak Oil as part of the same series of events...ie the "End Times"

[Djinn]

56. You're more tolerant than me

I couldn't see myself being particularly close to anyone with fundie beliefs it's all too mad.

as for "end times" well if it makes people feel better to beleive that some other figure will come and make it all good one day - fine but what I can't accept is the amount of people who seem to look forward to it...what's the hurry surely when you die you're going to "heaven" anyway why does the entire world have to end in your lifetime. Ego is the only reason.

[kittykitty]

57. There has been a guy walking around with "The End is Near" sign

for as long as I have been alive--and way before me. Its been a subject of cartoons forever.

[drscm]

58. As long as he and his friends don't make me drink the koolaid,

I have not problem with him.

[Disturbed]

62. Jesus will come back?

How? In a space ship?

[krkaufman]

66. Wow

> But isn't it a bit vain to think...of all the
> billions of souls that have lived - you will be
> the one to see the end/return?

That's *just* what I was thinking when I read your post's subject heading.

[Swamp Rat]

67. Ask him if he will give you his possessions and all his money right before

the rapture. That's what I've been saying to fundies I know. They get the deer-in-the-headlights look and usually but reluctantly say OK.