Let us face it.Even the most liberal among us has a stake in the system.

[KlatooBNikto]

This system, that needs war every few years to get the economy primed,benefits even those of us not directly connected with it in a daily way.This is why it is possible for many of us (at least the 45-50% of Americans who think GW is keeping us "safer") to ignore the sufferings of the innocent Iraqi civilians' plight.The War on Terror has now been elevated to the same exalted position as the Red Scare of the 50's.

What is clearly forgotten is that most of the world that we are supposed to be scared of consists of black and brown people of Third World countries that eke out a subsistence living and can only dream about the lives Americans lead.They have lived under tyrannies a lot longer than America has been in existence.Those tyrants come and go on millennial basis but the common people have endured, living marginal lives and hoping for a better day for their children just as we do.We, as a superpower, claim to be terrorized by these people whose daily lives are consumed in an effort to feed their families.
And our mighty propaganda machine continues to mock them and is openly thrilled as GW cozies up to one tyrant after another, spouting words like Freedom and Democracy to people who would be just as elated if Saddam puts food on their table or some other tyrant did.

We are on the wrong path in Iraq and elsewhere.What is most disastrous to us is that we have taken the wrong side of history once again as we did in Vietnam.

[cthrumatrix]

1. we are not "highly evolved beings" (blame whoever you want)

.....when you can only settle disagreements with a gun

.... when 75% of the world lives in poverty

.... when coporations run the world and agendas for power run the world


sadness.....

[KlatooBNikto]

18. Cthrumatrix, thank you for your reply.I am also reminded of one of

the arguments Jeanne Kirkpatrick made in support of the "Authoritarian" regimes in Latin America as against the "Totalitarian" regimes in eastern Europe during the Reagan Administration.Her thesis was that the daily lives of people remain untouched by the atrocities inflicted on active opponents of the authoritarian regimes while the daily lives of everyone is affected
by the Communist tyrannies.So, it is in our interest to tolerate the excesses of these socalled authoritarian regimes until we can persuade them to change their ways.

To me the same argument could also be applied to the situations in Iraq, Iran, Syria, North Korea whatever. This is why,if the case for WMD's is bogus, there was no reason at all for going to war with Iraq and considering how badly the situation has been handled it would be a wonder if the ordinary Iraqi does not long for the days of Saddam with all its horrors, real and imagined.

[Lerkfish]

2. speak for yourself, there...

I abhor war, profits from war, profiteers of war, and threats of same.
Just because traditionally war has benefitted economy on one level does not undo the economic damage it creates on another level. Certainly the ends do not justify the means.

although I think your point is well argued, I disagree with that one element of it.

[KlatooBNikto]

3. I am not saying that all of us are involved.Some like yourself

clearly are not.I myself ,I am afraid, am indirectly connected in many ways.Because of our own involvement it is possible for us to rationalize what GW is doing to innocent civilians.

[DebJ]

4. We do NOT need a war every few years to get the economy

primed. If an influx of government/deficit spending helps the economy, the government does NOT have to choose to spend that money blowing innocents to pieces.
Didn't FDR show that?
We could build bridges and infrastructure here,not blow them up.
Buy books, not bombs.
Put prosthesis on diabetics at government expense, not on injured soldiers...same with the rest of the money spent on a lifetime of health care for vets..

And the big difference is that the money paid for this would be going to workers in the USA, who would then spend that money IN the USA...as opposed to being spent overseas.
Job creation equals REAL economic stimulus.

[KlatooBNikto]

6. I agree with you, but our misplaced priorities and our own

powerlessness to redirect that spending in the ways you have described them makes our economy dependent, and that is the reality we must change.

[DebJ]

8. Bullcorndinky! We are not powerless. We have the power but

have refused to use it!!!!! Misplaced priorities, yes...keep the head in the sand. Don't go after the real truth or the real issues. Just go to work and play ball with the kids and abdicate our responsibilities and our power. The American system of government gives us ENORMOUS power...we just have to get off our collective ass and SEIZE it.

Authority is granted, power is SEIZED.

I'm seizing my neighborhood and not letting go. By the time Santorum comes up for re-election, my Democratic neighbors (about 50% per registrations) and my independent/Green neighbors (about 25%) will be more than ready to get off their butts and go to the polls!

[sweetheart]

5. simply not true

Military keynsianism, the economic idea that plowing public investment
in to the military to create an economic stimulus, works better
in civilian terms.

That is the very problem there, KlatooBNikto, that so many liberals
have NO STAKE AT ALL in the system. I am totally disenfranchised
from "my" government, and rather live abroad and attack any formal
move made by the diplomatic-bush-corps to start wars.

Disenfranchisement is the opposite of liberty. Remember, until
recently, liberty meant the opportunity to be part of, and to
participate in "your" government. Instead, government has been
manipulated by cynics, to wage things like the drugs war, to drive
millions of people (40 million US cannabis smokers) away from their
"liberty and justice for all". Government cynically serves corporate
job creation as the most important aspect of life, totally
disregarding the very constitution that it tramples on.

If i had some stake in the system, likely i'd not write on DU, as i'd
exercise influence through the franchise. I think this is true
for others here. I can't help but wonder where you're coming from.
I think you should read the book by will hutton, "the world we're in." It will clear away the economic falsehoods you repeated in
your post. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316860816/qid=1096457037/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/002-6402054-2957606?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

This book as well: (sorrows of empire by chalmers johnson)http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0805070044/ref=sib_rdr_ex/002-6402054-2957606?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00U#reader-link

[KlatooBNikto]

7. With our military spending approaching half a trillion dollars a year,

even our neighborhood grocery stores cannot remain unaffected by it.Regardless of how far removed we may seem from that stimulus, I am willing to be bet we are somehow ,even remotely, connected to it.This is not to impugn the integrity of any of us but a statement of our current reality.That's all.

[DebJ]

9. We suffer the impact, but the basic premise is the B.S. that

would encourage people to support Halliburton's increase in wealth at the expense of everyone else in this great country.

[sweetheart]

11. And the opportunity cost

The opportunity cost for what you call benefit is millions of lost
jobs... which is no benefit. Nobody benefits, when the goodwill of
the free world is funnelled in to industrial mass murder.

Just walking down the street, you could say that i approve of the
asphault industry, and that i'm glad my taxes have been spent on
6 lane freeways, that i approve of the automobile-petrol economy,
and that i am a beneficiary of this war by driving a car.

That might be a closer analogy. No, i had no choice in the matter,
and now have no choice but to use the transport existing, and the
economy that requires massive travel and transport of goods in order
that we live, like strawberrys from madagascar, and dog toys made in
china... all with public subsidy of the global economic imperium.

The miliatry stimulus benefits assholes and murderers, at the cost
of the arts, and civilian enterprise. I am far removed from that
stimulus, then, as it was much bettter before they started "stimulating".

Come on, are you saying that your situation is better with this
stimulus? Maybe you live near a miltiary base and run a bar/pub,
but most of DU does not, and your statement is wrong, knowing the
folks i've met on DU, nobody is benefitting. The country is
currently in hock up to its eyeballs. Nobody benefits from
bankruptcy. Your argument is a ghost.

[H2O Man]

12. Could you sum up for us

a general description of what you advocate for the cure for our societies' ills? There are probably very few DUers who are in favor of the military-industrial complex that the Bush-Cheney folks represent. Thus, it might be interesting to hear what people would hope to replace it with.

[KlatooBNikto]

15. The very first order as Patrick Buchanan, of all people, has said,

is to stop chasing the mirage of global hegemony and seek cooperation among regional like minded countries.This would allow us to close down the hundreds of military bases we currently maintain and bring the soldiers and the moneys home.We should also ask Germany and Japan to increase their share of the defense burden in money and manpower. We should support the efforts of UN to defuse any regional crises instead of jumping in with both feet.

These fforts alone would release the moneys needed for productive investment at home.Along with it, will come some level of credibility in the world, not to say goodwill. That would just be a first step.

[H2O Man]

19. I find that there are two Patrick B's:

The first one is the fellow on tv who says outrageous things with a smirk, generally only half-believing them himself. He gets paid to be a provocative right-winger, the same as George Foreman gets paid to promote a new grill.

The second Pat is a serious thinker, who has authored some of the most interesting books in recent years. Though a person is not likely to agree with everthing he writes, I think folks on the democratic left might be surprised how much they have in common with him.

"A Republic, Not an Empire" is perhaps the best example. It deals with the military issues you mention. The current administration (and to a large extent, democratic administrations for the past 50 years) has continued the neocon theology of American manifest destiny that will result in our nation's demise, like other empires, if we do not put a stop to it.

Yet this means addressing a number of huge issues such as our energy dependence and our consumer-driven society.... these are things that the president can't do for us by him/herself. What steps do you advocate that people take in their daily lives?

[KlatooBNikto]

20. The energy related issues have to be addressed both on a short and long

term basis.The short term efforts should be to improve fuel efficiency of our autos including the use of hybrid vehicles,use of wind power and solar power where feasible,discouraging long commutes by the use of remote, decentralized offices and even home offices by people,banning autos as in Europe from central cities and making more trains and people movers available in central cities.Long term, we need to invest more in improving efficiencies of solar cells,decreasing the capital costs of fuel cells,seeking ways to increase the safety of nuclear power generation and so on.

[ProfessorGAC]

10. One Problem

There is nothing in the econometric data to support that war actually stimulates the economy. Not one shred of data to support that.

In fact, there is some evidence (such as Korea and Vietnam) that increasing the velocity of money by encouraging investment and consumption would have been better able to sustain and improve the economy far better than gov't spending on those wars.

So, your premise is flawed. War is not a clear economic stimulus. Certainly, the cretins in this administration believe that, but that doesn't make it so.

Since they believe it so firmly, and the data suggests otherwise, you might want to rethink your belief in this premise.
The Professor

[KlatooBNikto]

13. Professor, all I am saying is that as things stand ,it is the warmaking

machinery and the assorted support systems that drain nearly half a trillion dollars each year that dwarf any other single item in our economy.That being the case, it is inconceivable to me that all of us are not touched one way or another by this vast spending.

[Bridget Burke]

14. So what?

Yes, the military/industrial complex is far too strong. Eisenhower warned us about it. Should we just give up to hopelessness?

Are you planning on voting, at least? Getting Kerry & as many other Democrats in office as possible should be our first goal. Even if we can avoid another Bush term, there will be lots of work remaining. Whining & flogging ourselves won't help.

[KlatooBNikto]

16. Did I say I was not planning to vote?

[porkrind]

17. The system doesn't need war

It's the war profiteers that lobby/bribe the government to make war for their private profits. Think Haliburton, KBR, and the Carlyle Group. The dumb masses in the US are just led along by the propaganda machine. Read my first two links below for a concise discussion of the problem.
:dem:

---

Read about the Right-Wing "Master Plan": http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html

Have you read "War is a Racket"?: http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Read George Orwell's classic "1984" free online here: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984