another type of back door draft -poverty

[goddess40]

run the economy into the ground and give poor young adults little choice but to enlist.

Ask Mrs. Lipcomb, from Fahrenheit 911, it was one of the reasons her son joined and ultimately died.

[skygazer]

1. Very good point

The military is the only viable way out of poverty for many young people and many parents ecourage them to enlist because of it. The promises of education and opportunity aren't found for them anywhere else.

What really bugged me when I watched F911 again was the ad for the NG - remember those? Don't see 'em much anymore because they all said the same thing - "most serve only weekends and two weeks in the year". Not anymore. How about extended deployments serving as front line troops in a war zone? Doesn't sound nearly as inviting. These people thought they were enlisting to serve in this country, in their communities, helping with state emergencies and homeland security. What a surprise they were in for!

[porphyrian]

2. Absolutely. Good point.

Thanks to rising tuition and under-funded education, the only chance many poor people have to go to college is the GI Bill. Right now, your chances for survival might be better joining a street gang instead.

[TrustingDog]

3. this is one of the big ugly truths...

watching 911 and seeing what is going on with outsourcing, weakening unions, etc., the overview message I came away with was the Class War one that Moore more than hints at.

[jdj]

4. it's more than that, too.

It's a whole system of propaganda doled out to the poor and middle class (dulce et decorum est, blah, blah, blah) to get them to support what are so many times just the business ventures of right wing millionaires and billionaires.

[TrustingDog]

16. that has been so thruout history, but now...

there is just so much more at stake for so many more across the globe. Consider just the possible nightmarish widespread effects of GM products and what has been done to our water systems, antibiotic overuse, drug overuse, etc. - which usually directs back to profit mongering and devil may care attitudes by Bush's elite feudal lord base and our serflike attitudes.

[jdots]

5. good point again

The money from the G.I. bill to go to college is not much help

with the higher rates of tuition and shrinking state school budgets .Maybe the draft was done away with when the plan of poverty thru privatization was put into effect.Viet Nam Vets got screwed ,Gulf War Vets got more screwed and Iraq Vets will get even more screwed.

[TahitiNut]

8. The WW2 GI BIll was enough ...

... to pay ALL costs, including living costs, at the public colleges and universities. For many, it even made it possible for GI's to attend Harvard and other Ivy League colleges.

Today's GI Bill isn't anything close to that.

[Kanary]

6. My Vietnam generation was told this would happen, but we fought

the draft anyway.

It was a HUGE mistake.

Now we'll have more wars because those who are forced to fight are NOT the ones who are heard.

By fighting to abolish the draft, we played right into the RW hands, and look what we've accomplished. :(

The only answer is a truly equitable draft.

Kanary

[TahitiNut]

7. Yup. Economic coercion is NOT voluntary.

All stick and no carrot.

[catmandu57]

9. For many it's not the education money

It's a job plain and simple, it gets to a point when young people can't live at home any longer, but there isn't anyway to support themselves. No employment, not even low wage menial work available, no hope of ever making a life.
I've been there, and watched this play out time after time, as long as we have a large poverty pool to draw from, we'll have an army.

[goddess40]

17. My son's friend was banking on that until we took him to F911

He was quite sad when we walked out of that theater. I am hoping he is applying himself a little more in school this year - he's in 10th grade.

[Philostopher]

10. It's not that much different from the Reagan Era.

Lots of the guys who were in the Air Force with my first husband were in because unemployment was up to somewhere around 10% in many states, and they could no longer afford college or couldn't find work. It's disgusting, yeah -- but not new.

Worse yet, the GI Bill Of Rights under which those guys enlisted was an even bigger piece of crap then the ones guys enlist under now -- they paid them subsistence wages back in the 80s, then required they meet a certain level of contribution into their 'college fund' before the services would match. Most of those guys couldn't afford to contribute, so they didn't.

When the economy is okay, it's fair -- but when it isn't, it's always the poor and working class kids who go in. That's not new, but it is reprehensible.

[skjpm]

11. Give the poor kids a uniform and a nice funeral

They just would have wasted their life selling drugs on the street anyway. At least sending them to die in a way gives their life a little meaning it otherwise wouldn't have had, and they can send some money home to their family. And they bring pride to their family instead of ending up in prison.

This is satire on my part, btw, though that's how repugs think.

[Philostopher]

13. It's even sadder now, of course.

Because they're actually having to go over and die for some misbegotten revenge scenario. But the big fear back in the 80s was that a lot of those guys would have wound up in South America -- this was when they were messing around in Nicaragua, and I think some of the guys from the security cops did go down there to train troops to go up against the elected government -- I think they were afraid they'd get shipped down there to do somebody's so-called 'anti-communist' dirty work.

Reagan was a bad enough CIC, I'm sure he was just as out of touch with what it's like to feel forced into the service by losing your job, but at least he didn't start a major military action while he was in, as much as he seemed to be trying to start something with half the world.

The attitude wasn't dramatically different back then, though. And I think you're right -- I think that 'oh, well, at least they're not out on the street' (or 'sucking down unemployment') mentality was in play back then, too. Becaues active duty soldiers aren't human beings -- they're tools, to them.

[politicat]

18. and the family gets $250,000 if they die in service.

Hopefully they'll spend it on a house and a nice car or getting the other kids into the community college instead of blowing it all on oxycontin and beer.

</Repuke channelling: off>

[catmandu57]

19. I believe it's 25,000

there's an argument for raising the ammount of the death benefit, the conservatives don't like it of course.

[ikojo]

12. Lack of money for college and lack of

other opportunities is why most people enlist. My brother enlisted because he was running with the wrong crowd and saw very little opportunity for himself. He was in Iraq for Gulf War I.

What I would like to know is this: The military, but the army in particular, promises to help pay for college...is this true?

[politicat]

15. GI Bill, if you can get it.

Being in the National Guard is NOT a good way to get college paid for. The fact that Mr. Pcat went to Iraq I is all that ensured him that he'd get his GI Bill. (He was there for a year, so it changed his status.)

If you enlist, you get the GI Bill when you get out, from any of the branches. There's also training while you're in that may be useful afterwards and may apply to college credit. On most bases, you can take college credit classes, but the problem is you may have to abandon your work at any time.

Pcat

[politicat]

14. yep. 2 brothers, a sister and my husband all have had to take this route.

I got lucky - I had very, very good grades and I wasn't from an upper middle class suburban high school so I got very good scholarships. My brothers and my sister did not do as well in school - they decided to play more than I had - and ended up joining up. (My sister medicalled out when my nephew was born because she and HER husband were both Army and they didn't want to have to give up custody of my nephew in case they were both activated.)

It really is a way out of poverty... you sell your heart and soul for a poverty paycheck plus medical care and housing, substandard medical care afterwards and $40K that won't pay for 4 years of university anymore.

Bitter? Yeah. A little.

Pcat (who does not mind serving her country as long as her country serves its citizens in return.)