A word on Christian bashing

[Nimrod]

Okay. I know that millions of Christians are NOT power-hungry, theocratic, mind-controlling, fundamentalist zealots. I also know that you are having to endure the backlash against the evil bastards who are trying to take over the country. It's got to be terribly frustrating and tiresome to listen to when you are NOT part of that camp.

But keep something in mind. Although the generic term "Christian" is often used, that does NOT mean that it is directed at you or your beliefs specifically. It's a descriptive word, nothing more.

Take a look at how many good Republicans there are. Right here in Montana there is a group of Republicans who have been backing Democratic candidates in an effort to retake their party from the Republican Assemblies (uber-Republicans who draw their ranks from Christian Reconstructionists and praise * as almost LITERALLY the second coming). These are damn good men and women who don't deserve to be grouped with the assholes. And yet the term "Republican" is a four-letter word. When we use the term "Republican" we know we are not including THESE particular men and women, and nobody complains about it.

It sucks to have the generic term for your faith associated with zealotry. The thing is, at this point it's just not going to be easily avoidable. Just as the right has seized the word "Liberal" and turned it into something ugly, their foul actions have seized the word "Christian" and turned it into something even uglier. Not nice and not fair, but it's the way it is.

The point is, just because the word "Christian" has popped up in reference to the Talibornagains, don't assume it's YOU being spoken about. This is something the rest of us have had to learn to deal with a LONG time ago. Fact of life: Assholes and idiots are always the ones who make the most noise, attract the most attention, and stain everyone else with their actions, and the backlash hits everybody.

There is effort being made to more closely define who we're speaking about. But oversensitivity if someone uses a more generic term isn't really necessary.

As a note: No, I'm not a Christian in ANY sense of the word. I am also not heterosexual. To tell an ugly truth, screaming queens who dress in leather thongs and handcuff themselves to the hood of a car covered with dildoes to make a public statement irritate the hell out of me on a personal level (and yes, I've seen that). However when someone talks about a homosexual behaving in a certain manner that is NOT how I behave, I have learned to not assume it is me personally being spoken about. It's a valuable skill that has served me well and saved me a great deal of frustration.

Fair? Nope. But it's the way things are sometimes.

Just my $0.02.

[carpetbagger]

1. Talibornagains. Nice phrase.

Never heard it before.

Must. Leave. Texas.

[Nimrod]

3. Not mine

It's popped up around here the last few days. Don't know who coined it.

[quaoar]

2. There are other, more specific words that can be used

such as fundamentalist.

[Nimrod]

8. Yep. But my point is...

Don't assume you're being insulted personally if another word is used instead. It's just a word. If I know who I'm talking about and YOU know who I'm talking about, there's no need to get insulted by the word "Christian" being used.

To quote George Carlin - "We don't care when Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor use it (the word), because we know they're not racist. They're niggers."

[quaoar]

27. Well...

I might know what you are talking about but this is a very large chatroom and new people drop in all the time. I can imagine a liberal Christian checking the place out and heading right back out.

And you and others may not intend any insult to liberal Christians, but some folks here do.

Personally, I don't care. I am a Christian. I like NASCAR. I live in Alabama. And I still hate Bush.

See. All is possible in this great country of ours.

[sangh0]

65. Yes, sometimes the word "Christian" mean ALL Christians

There have been many posts stating that ANYONE who believes in God is mentally defective.

[Jade Fox]

13. Religious Totalitarians is my new phrase....

or Christian Totalitarians.

Use liberally!

[LiberalFighter]

28. Or could use fundinazi like windbag uses feminazi

Or go for jesus freak wackos

[jdj]

36. eviljailandkill.

because the evy jeebies are the ones that scare me.

when you get too specific, it's like saying "a highly disassociative schizophrenic psychopath" when you just mean crazy.

[sangh0]

66. I like it

.

[Liberal Veteran]

77. That doesn't work either...I've heard people object to that one...

...saying that they are pretty liberal even though they are fundamentalists also.

[kayell]

4. I always try to write about the Talibornagains as "christians" as

opposed to Christians, and to their supreme being as Gawd to avoid confusion. I think that this helps most people see the difference, but there are a select few who seem determined to feel persecuted.

[Catch22Dem]

5. Good post. Very thoughtful.

I don't take anything personally, but I can see where christian Democrats might be feeling as though we've abandoned them, which of course isn't true. Obviously the last thing we want is for liberal christians to leave us and go to the repukes. The repukes are NOT the party of christianity.

My personal beliefs aside (I don't believe in God or Jesus, or Allah, or Buddah, or any other higher power) I want people of faith (all faiths) to feel welcome in our party.

[DemVIctory]

12. Take back the langueage

Christian dems look to the word of Jesus. R's prefer Paul's interpretation of Jesus' word. Lets call them Paulians and let them have Paul. Throw the word of Jesus in their face. Jesus was a liberal!

1. Judging people is not for mortals.
2. It is nearly impossible for the rich to go to heaven. (eye of the needle Jesus quote)
3. Peace
4. Truth vs lies
5. Love, forgiveness, and understanding vs hatred.

Jesus, like the truth is on our side. R's are hypocrites on every other issue, Christianity is certainly no acception.

[LiberalFighter]

32. I didn't realize that until recently... Paul never knew Jesus

Yet isn't most of the NT by Paul?

[kayell]

41. Paul was one of those great guys that said he spoke to Jesus, and got

believed because he said so. Kind of like *. My theory on this is that crazed fundies can't believe that someone who would lie about this wouldn't be fried instantly by lightening, so they MUST be telling the truth. :shrug:

Liberal Christians I know tell me that Paul is the worst thing that ever happened to Jesus's message.

[LiberalFighter]

73. Should ask them how many times they have lied and fried

[many a good man]

61. But Paul was the winning candidate

He crafted a message that sold. Jesus' tolerant, do-gooder message? Got him crucified by his own people.

You're saying its "Jesus-by-Jesus" against "Jesus-by-Paul." I agree. We must fight. Otherwise they will have destroyed both Christianity AND the world...

[Laelth]

78. "Take back the language?"

I couldn't agree more. That's what we have got to do. That's also exactly what we can't do, because the R's control the media. They control, therefore, the discourse and the culture. Until this changes, the Democratic party is nothing but a stage prop that provides the illusion of legitimacy to the ruling state party.

-Laelth

[aquart]

6. The Christians who voted for George don't exist.

Not the 8 million they're claiming. It's a cover story. Stop blaming illusional Christians.

[Jade Fox]

17. I've read there are 19 million Fundamentalists in this country....

How can they "not exist"?

[jdj]

68. they will weaken their DNA with incest

eventually they will die out.

[cali]

20. Keep living in your delusional little world.

Of course they're out there, and they wield enormous power. Just saying they don't exist is not an answer.

[Dem Agog]

7. No Sympathies for Christians who don't like being lumped in...

I used to be a Christian, it was indoctrinated into me before I was old enough to think logically. My experience, personally knowing hundreds of Christians, is that it's a scary fucking religion.

If you're a moderate Christian and believe simply the teachings of Jesus Christ and aren't a "Talibornagain", well bully for you but I'm not going to worry about offending you by claiming that Christians, as a whole, are turning downright evil.

It's about damned time Christians took some of their own medicine. If they don't like it, then they need to start reforming from within and cutting out their evil, fundamentalist, hell-destined cancerous members. If they don't, then they will find themselves the next persecuted minority, and while there won't be lions this time, Christianity will suffer long and devastatingly.

Fix the people who are making your religion look like the next terrorist organization or face the consequences.

[kayell]

10. Gee, that was a helpful post. Millions of Quakers, Christian UU, liberal

Episcopalians etc. really appreciate your support.

[Dem Agog]

18. Not looking for agreement...

I really don't care about the feelings of anyone who professes to believe in "God" anymore. Christians have ruined their standing among me for quite some time and until all of the "good" Christians figure out a way to weed out their bigots, racists and homophobes, don't expect me to trust a Christian... Christianity is becoming the great western terror organization cover, and I hope that the "good" ones find a way to keep the fundamentalists from taking over.

So far, they've not been very successful.

[pop goes the weasel]

81. hey, southpaw4kerry and other non-believers

As a fellow ex-christian, I feel your pain and share your fears. But you know, a lot of Christians already are aware that they'll be rounded up and joining us behind the barbed-wire if the Reconstructionists get their way. And more can be brought to that awareness. But it won't happen if they feel they are being attacked. Dissent disappears from view among groups that believe themselves persecuted--this is why Reconstructionists work so hard to convince Christians that they are being persecuted by secular humanists. If you were a member of a church for a long period of time, if you were ever a True Believer, then you know that what I am saying is true. And if you were a member of a church 20 years ago, then you also know that what is being billed as Christianity by the Reconstructionists is doctrinal heresy to most even evangelical and fundamentalist groups.

Further, I have known many atheists who have been and still are hard-core Republicans. They underestimate the danger posed by Reconstructionism, thinking that it merely provides an easy way for their candidates to gain power. In the past couple of years, more of them have begun to see that atheists voting for the Republicans right now is akin to Jews voting for the National Socialists. The Republicans party itself is not fascist, but it has pandered for so long to people who are that anyone who is concerned about maintaining the Constitution of the United States needs to either stop supporting the GOP or work actively to change it from within. More folks are coming to think it can't be changed from within at this point, and those folks include not only atheists but also Christians.

As to the Christians, they have my support. I know a several of them in pain right now, even preachers driven out from their congregations by the heretics. They were blind to what was going on but now come to see. Fight on for your faith, friends. A lot of people feel more comfortable explaining their lives in terms of a narrative, and I think there is nothing wrong with that, only that it is wrong to mistake the narrative for reality, or in religious terms, to worship the scripture rather than the god.

[Jade Fox]

24. I'll support them when they publically denounce these facists....

who are doing what they do in the name of Christianity.

I proudly claim the label Feminist. If other people calling themselves
Feminists starting doing repugnant things in the name of Feminism,
you can bet you would hear from me.

[kayell]

29. Actually, they have. Even *s Methodist denomination. The media don't

report on it.

I'm not a Christian myself, or even religious in any way, but I have seen actions and statements by all the denominations I listed and many others.

Thank your "liberal media" that you don't know about that.

[Jade Fox]

40. How could I forget about the #^$* media?

I even remember hearing about the Methodists. :(

[kayell]

45. The effect of RW media control is so pervasive it effects all of our

perceptions. It is difficult to combat, because even the most aware of us can be fooled at times.

[Ilsa]

46. Have you seen anything by the Southern Baptists?

I'm curious as I still have SB family. You're right: there is virtually no media play.

[kayell]

70. As I recall, SB were the only christian denomination to come out with a

public statement in support of the war on Iraq. All others either stayed neutral or issued statements against the war. IIRC, those with official opposing statements were in the majority.

A Methodist big-wig came out with a statement on blasphemy that was very clearly targeted at * the week before the election.

Jimmy Carter left the SBs a few years ago because of the nasty road they're following. I forget which group he joined - another more sane Baptist group I believe.

[BiggJawn]

33. Too bad. I agree with Southpaw.

The "Good Christians" sat on their asses and did nothing while the Taliborn-agains and Telly-vangelists hijacked their religion.

Now that the Taliborn-agains are in the driver's seat, I'm supposed to be all sensitive and shit about offending some UU's and Quakers because I'm angry about the prospect of having to wear a big red "A" on my coat, or having to explain to somebody why my ass wasn't in church Sunday morning, like the law requires?

I don't think so. Sorry you're feelings are hurt,but that's a HUGE problem we have here on the Left, this habit of not wanting to offend. This is what gives birth to RW bullshit like "Why, friends, the LIBERALS think there's nothing wrong with a child molester fucking your pre-schooler. After all, whos to say what's normal and what isn't..."

Maybe they'll toughen their hides when they're sent to the camps, too

[kayell]

37. Look at my post 29.

[Ilsa]

44. I'm a Christian and I think you are making some excellent points.

They are allowing themselves to be lumped in, no differentiation. They need to denounce the hatred and bigotry of the rw zealots or risk being tossed into the same category with them.

Some of them are trying to do this, but don't have much media muscle. I wish they'd write the doctrine into their creeds that these people stand in a state of sin if they do not repent of their selfish evil deeds, including using the church for political power.

[LoZoccolo]

69. Same thing with atheists (Stalin, Mao, obnoxious commies at protests).

You're all the same to me until you do things to stop all this and apologize for the atrocities, and the damage to the reputation of the left you've caused.

:eyes:

(No you're not.)

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

89. You had me up until you said "idiot".

NOTE: The rolling eyes means "sarcasm".

NOTE: You should read the rules again. You did read them when you applied, didn't you?

:hi: :nuke:

Welcome to DU.

[ScreamingMeemie]

82. Humans, as a whole, are turning downright evil. I know many agnostics,

and many atheists who have bought the Bush fraud hook, line and sinker. Sorry...no pass for you today. :hi:

[doni_georgia]

92. Kinda hard for us liberal Christians to "fix" the fundies since they don't

answer to us. They don't even believe we ARE Christians, because we don't fit their definition of Christian. If there was ONE governing body of Christians in this country, then we might could do something, but since there isn't, not a hell of a lot we can do. All we can do is keep our own denominations free of the bigotry and hatred that the zealots represent. We left the Methodist Church over it's stand on gay marriage (and we're heterosexual). We are visiting a Disciples of Christ church and to lump them, Christian UU's, UCC's, PCUSA's, and ELCA's into the same camp as the fundies is wrong. It serves no one to paint all Christians with the broad stroke of the brush. It's bigotry exactly like that which the right displays towards liberals. I have no problem with people who aren't Christian. I have no desire to convert anyone. I would guess that the many other Christians here feel the same way. Am I offended by being lumped in with the right wing Christians? No. But I do know that it will not serve our cause to do so.

[TheFarseer]

9. yes, we might want to clarify

or else some freeper stumbling across this board will have "proof" that we hate christians and want to take away their bible.

[Dem Agog]

22. what does it matter?

or else some freeper stumbling across this board will have "proof" that we hate christians and want to take away their bible.

What does it matter if we hate Christians? Hey they can have any little fairy tale book they want, Grimms or the Bible. Take their pick. Just don't use terror and bigotry to make me believe the stories.

[sangh0]

67. We just lost an election, and you ask "Why does it matter"???

And secondly, *WE* don't hate Christians. You do.

[okasha]

31. Christian Bashing

English teacher speaking:

The way to make the point about the Talibornagains without unjustly accusing or offending real Christians is to take a deep breath and refer to the TBA's not simply as Christians but as "Dominionist Christians" and/or "Christian Reconstructionists," which is what they really are. Since most Americans aren't familiar with these terms, be prepared to explain. It will take some time for the terms to gain currency, but when they do, the offending parties can be referred to simply as "Dominionists" or "Reconstructionists." (And that latter term has a lot of negative baggage in the South to this day. :D)

Mainline, non-fundamentalist Christians are our natural allies because they read the Gospel in the light of Jesus' advocacy for the poor and the marginalized. Some of those churches now have openly gay clergy; the Episcopal Church has just consecrated a gay Bishop over the protests of the fundies. Others have members, both lay and clergy, at the forefront of peace and justice movements/
organizations. Priests and nuns are always among the first victims of the right-wing regimes in Latin America. Remember Oscar Romero and Jean Donovan and her companions.

So, let's seek out those Christians who will work with us and refrain from insulting them by tarring the whole church with a too-wide brush. (Truth-in-packaging: Native American pagan here.)

Okasha

[BiggJawn]

42. I see one signifigant problem with that....

There are too many sylables in "Reconstructionist" and "Dominionist" for your average red-blooded Murkan to wrap his brain stem around. How do you explain the nuances of a John Ashcroft or an Oliver North to someone who's depth of theological understanding is "God sed it, I beleeve it, thet SETTLES it!"?

Don't forget-The tally was something like 53,000,000 morons in this country just last week.

And the American Episcopals were forced by the "Mother Church" to appologise to the Fundy Church in Africa for their "sin", right?

[okasha]

53. Australocervicorufians (Southern Rednecks)

I'm a lifelong Southerner, and I assure you that there is no rednecked, long-neck-guzzling, gun-toting, tobacco-chawing good ol' boy who cannot say "Reconstruction." Trust me on this one.

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the American Episcopal Church "apologizing" to the African Fundies. The "Mother Church" can't force any of the national Anglican churches to do anything; the Anglican Communion is not a hierarchy but a loose confederation of churches that share a liturgy and a theology. The salient point is that Eugene Robinson was elected Bishop by the people of his diocese, who knew well and truly that he was a gay man when they voted, and that he was confirmed in his office by majority vote of the laity and clergy. He also has the support of the Rt. Rev. Frank Grishom, the national Presiding Bishop. (American church does not have Archbishops.) Now, there may have been some "We're sorry you feel that way" sort of statement, but that's not an apology, and Eugene Robinson remains Bishop of New Hampshire.

Okasha

[ElaineinIN]

57. More on ECUSA

The Archbishop of Canterbury, who presides ove the Anglican Communion, set up a conference to study the split between the north american churches (ECUSA and Canada too) over the issue of Gene Robinson. I think that the results of the confernce asked ECUSA to express regrets that the decision caused such consternation, put specifically did not use the work apologize, either with regard to the actual ordination of Bishop Robinson, or for the process.

I can't say how proud of my church I am... they did stand up... they did take a stance, one that was hard and unpopular and controversial, but one that was right.

[BiggJawn]

85. I read that the Anglican Church told...

...the American Episcopal church to apologize for the election of Bishop Robinson to the African Episcopal Church, who has their knickers in a twist over our gay bishop.

Oh, I don't doubt that "Reconstructionist" is not a foreign word in the South. Now, the question is, Would your average "Australocervicorufians" know that when you say "Christian Reconstructionist" that you're not talking about them dam-yankee capretbaggers his great-granpappy used to cuss about all the time?

How about "Dominionist"? Can they wrap their brains around that? If so, good, because the Northern sub-species sure as shit can't.

[shimmergal]

76. Re your last statement--

No, we haven't apologized. And if we do, our Presiding Bishop has made it pretty clear that the apology will NOT be along the lines of
"We did wrong" but rather "We regret that what we did offended you."
Even the worldwide committee that came up with the report spoke in terms of "Until all branches agree", implying that gay-positive developments are the wave of the future.

And they are.

[BiggJawn]

86. Hell, that must ahve been SOME dream I had...

Read in a story on the BBC web page that Rowan was demanding that "you" apologise to the African Episcoplas...
Must have been some dream.....

Anyway, if you haven't apolgized, OK, and I hope you don't, even to say "sorry we pissed you off, Deal."

[msmcghee]

50. okasha, welcome to DU . .

You make some good pints.

However, many of us question why we non-Christians should have to make the distinction. Why haven't liberal Christians spoken out and named the fundies as Dominionists and Reconstuctionists? I've never seen any "good" Christian marches on Washington like the Promise Keepers to decry the besmirching of their good name by the fundies.

The "good" Christians have never complained much as far as I know. Apparently they think that Dominionist Christianity is just another good Christian denomination. I know there are people here at DU who are Christians and who share my liberal values. But the reality is, there aren't enough of those in their denomination to demand that something be done about that.

It is natural and justified for non-Christians to suspect that those "good" denominations don't object too much because they get to plug into the RW power source - right along with the fundies.

In otherwords, they are perfectly happy to go along with the gay bashing while they fill out their forms for their local "faith-based" child care program. In fact, why would they rock the boat and give up power just to make it easier for non-Christians to tell the good Christians from the bad?

[okasha]

59. Thanks for the welcome,

msmcghee!

Well, let's turn it around. How would we feel if someone said, "I don't think Democrats are really any different from Republicans. After all, a Democrat gave the keynote address at the Republican convention. A Texas Democratic President was the role model for Bush when he stole the election and lied us into a war. Democrats voted for the Iraqi war and for DOMA."

The truth is, many of those mainline denominations can and do distinguish themselves from the fundies. The Methodist Bishops have openly rebuked Bush, there are whispers that the Pope thinks Bush may be the Anti-Christ, and ministers like Barry Lynn have publicly debated Falwell and his ilk on matters of religion and civil liberties. Someone made a comparison a few posts ago about the difference between the majority of the gay community and the guys who wear leather thongs and ride in Gay Pride parades in dildo-covered cars. Its a viable distinction, and there's a similar one to be made between Dominionists and mainline Christians who take their faith seriously. If nothing else, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," and make no mistake--the Dominionists hate mainline Christians just as much as they do us non-Christians.

Okasha

[ElaineinIN]

60. In defense...

I don't think that's a fair characterization of non-fundy Christians. A couple of things

1. Unlike the fundies, my church recognizes and appreciates the line between church and state, and the limits of their tax exemption. My priest's sermon was vote, and vote your conscience, and show tolerance to those who think differently. If my priest had said "vote democrat" or "vote Kerry" we would have been very upset with him.

2. The role of evangelism in the Episcopal church is very different than that in the fundy churches. Going out and screaming the good news to whom ever will listen--and in most cases, those that wont too--is part of being a fundy. It is not part of being an Episcopalian, and I would say that most of us are very comfortable with over shows of religiousity.. it is, frankly, a private matter as far as I'm concerned.

3. Which is not to say we aren't there. My church and the local UU church co-sponsor a Habitat build. We house an association of women who help transition Latin American immigrants. We are one of the main supporters of the community food bank. Every peace protest, every anti-death penalty protest, we are there.

There is a phrase in the Bible, which I'll mangle here, but essentailly says, when you pray or do good works, do them in private. Do not go to the middle of the church and throw yourself on the floor and proclaim all the good things you do... in that you glorify yourself. If you do them in private, you glorify God. Anyone have the cite for that?

As for the attidues for non-Christians here... I don't want to convert you and you've got every right to believe what you believe. However, we pray for tolerance for every other group, but we can't do it for our own? We argue that you need to learn about other cultures and not judge, and yet we have people in our midst for whom we can't show this respect?

And just in case you think that this is just a be nice to others issue--its got political implications. Skinner's thread was arguing, how do we reach the people that we lost. Someone above made a good point--are we turning off visitors who don't know that when we say Christian we mean fundy (and by the way, I've never taken that personally, I know you don't mean me)? Some of you may say we don't care what they think. I belive that we need to care what they think... we lost them Tuesday. Does that mean that we need to believe the same way? do we need to agree with them always? No--but we do need to at least learn how to open a dialogue with them, so we can find out where we do have common ground and can get them to see why voting Democrat makese sense.

Sorry this is so long.

[msmcghee]

74. The elephant in the room . .

. . that we're ignoring right now, is the RW strategy of turning American against American. This has worked very well for them since Gingrich. You can't be tolerant of intolerance. You have to drive a stake through its heart or it will swallow you whole.

They want the Christian right to hate us - and thereby hate any candidate we put forth. I'll bet a vast majority of Bush votes came from voters filled with hatred for us terrorist-loving/gay/feminist/baby killers. They'd never have voted for any Dem candidate - because Rove has successfully branded us as un-American on the war against terrorism and/or immoral on the war for values.

How does that make you feel as a Christian? Why aren't you attacking Bush and Rove and the Heritage Society and Hannity and O'Reilly's pious hypocracy?

I don't mean the occasional debate. Where's the hue and cry? Why aren't you carrying pitchforks into the street? This should be your major concern in life if you believe in God the way you claim - if you believe according to the Beatitudes.

They are saying your religious values are corrupt and that what you believe in is empty rhetoric.

Instead, all we hear is "please don't confuse us with those intolerant Christians".

The bell tolls for me and thee my friend.

If you guys would fight for your identity - rather than let those RW assholes define you, together we could kick their ass.

[ElaineinIN]

75. The fundies will not be converted

Look, I can't stand the fundies and what they stand for--but they are what they are and we will never convert them. No amount of hue and cry against them will get them to see anything other than the imminent rapture, for which they will be grateful. The real question is what will get those people

I don't need to defend my religion against them, and my personal relationship with God, my soul and my salvation are not dependant upon them or what they think I don't need to defend my Christianity from them as it defends itself from a religious point of view. So to say that this is a major concern if I believe in God confuses the religious and the political.

I refuse to let Karl Rove define how I treat the people around me.

THAT BEING SAID, I gave up the majority of my last year to work for a variety of candidates. Every time I went into the campaign offices, I ran into someone from my Church. As a religion or as a denomination, don't expect us to feel as if we need to define ourselves as the anti-fundies--although, again, the Episcopalians made pretty damn loud statement with the appointment of Gene Robinson, I think As individuals who care passionately, we are out there, we are extremely active and we are making the arguments you say... just because I don' thave a sign that says, oh, by the way, I'm a Christan too, doesn't mean anything.

[pres2032]

84. we do complain and make noise

but just because you don't hear about it, does not mean it doesn't happen. I was part of a Christian semi-fundamentalist group on my campus, but I was having too many disagreements with them and after talking alot with my Catholic and Lutheran friends (i'm catholic) I wrote them an e-mail, stating all my disagreements and quit.
The thing is, they are so firmly entrenched in their beliefs that it is extremely difficult for any real damage to be done, especially on the individual level. You are right that there needs to be a national or even better, a world wide movement against these people, but being that it so difficult on the individual level, many people who want to speak out, get frustrated and say "the hell with it."
I personally would be in favor of a Christian Democrat party, similiar to what the Germans and other Europeans have.
However, I do think that our best chances are on the individual level, slowly chipping away.

[okasha]

88. The protests do happen

but they happen one on one and one by one. They don't make the national news unless there are large numbers of people involved or something--like Bishop Robinson's sexuality--the press finds titillating.

Another example: A couple years ago, a priest in one of the local Catholic churches preached that AIDS was God's punishment on gays. He hadn't gotten but the first couple sentences out of his mouth when a dear friend of mine who is not just religious but a religious--a Marist brother--stood up in the congregation and, as the priest's elder in religion, ordered him to be silent. He said that the priest was "in heresy," and made it clear to the entire congregation that their pastor's views directly contradicted the official teaching of the Catholic Church on the subject. This man is also active in AI and a number of similar liberal organizations.

Again, let's not stereotype people whose causes are our own.

Okasha

[China_cat]

62. Or refer to them as 'fundies'

using a friend of mine's definition. He says 'around here fundy means religious asshole'.

[asjr]

11. I am a Christian. I believe. But all "Christians" do not follow

the principles. Yes, we are all guilty of "Christian bashing" to some extent, but that is because some of us feel that the idea of separation of church and state shoul be paramount in this country. We need to protect the idea. This country has many religions and the only one trying to make us a religious state are the fundamentalist. I have been referring to them as fundies on occasion and I should not, but this election proves that Bush did not win it. Hatred of our fellow man won it. That is very unChristian. I do not allow that to enter my religion. Hatred has entered the lives of some Christians. They have replaced God with hatred. That does not bode well for religion and our country. The way the country is headed may turn out to be a religious state which is good vs evil. No one wins.

[xchrom]

14. handcuff themselves to the hood of a car covered with dildoes

awwww - i rather like those folks.
makes me laugh.
something jerry falwell almost never does.

[CornField]

15. At the moment, I'm not caring about any Christian's feelings

Following 9-11 most people sent out a call to the Muslim community: "These are your extremists... these people are making a mess of your religion... it's time for you to make a stand and denounce these people and re-claim your religion."

That's exactly how I feel about all Christians at the moment, including extended members of my own family. THIS IS A PROBLEM WITHIN THEIR OWN RELIGION. They allowed these extremists to hijack their personal belief. They sat back, seeing where things were going, and simply bowed their head in prayer and added more money to the religious machine's coffers. Because of their own short-sightedness, we all get to lie in the bed they've made.

Until the "real" Christians decide to make a stand against the extreme of their own religion, I have absolutely no problem lumping them all together and spreading out the blame. Their choice is clear: Take Back Christianity or watch it be warped.

[Dem Agog]

25. EXACTLY!

CornField, you and I are of like mind.

[Dem Agog]

26. Duplicate

Dupe

[LiberalFighter]

35. And if they don't...

Religions will be weeded out until only a few select are permitted to exist.

[BJ]

16. Then Christian Reconstructionists it is.

Take a couple of minutes to read this Webpage.

Here's a sample:

First, Reconstructionists believe that God should be at the center of every activity, not just spiritual ones. Faith should be applied to art, education, and politics "no less than to church, prayer, evangelism, and Bible study."
(-snip-)
Environmentalism - Obviously if you believe that a divine entity has given the Earth to you for you to use as you will, you will be angered at those who seek to stand in your way. Further, environmentalists have a view of the future that conflicts deeply with the apocalyptic visions of Reconstructionists, leaving (they believe) no room for Jesus, the kingdom, and so forth. Taken together, it is easy to see why Reconstructionists hold a special animosity towards environmentalists.

Civil Liberties - Liberty and freedom are not terms that appear very frequently in Reconstructionist writings, since so much of Reconstructionism is in direct opposition to the principles of freedom.

Death Penalty - Since the Hebrew scriptures have many offenses whose punishment is death, Reconstructionists are staunch supporters of the death penalty. They feel the death should also be given to adulterers, blasphemers, heretics, homosexuals, prostitutes, witches, abortionists, idolaters, etc., as proscribed by the Old Testament.

Please, read this Webpage.

These are the people who have taken over the Repiglican Party and, seemingly, the country. However, they are not a majority of Christians nor are they a majority of voters or even Repiglicans.

[gumby]

19. Whatever you want to call it,

talobornagains, religo-fascists, this is now the Official State Religion. Get over it, move on and get with the Real Americans and the Real Religion.

[Rowdyboy]

21. Thank you for making me think about the subject in a way I had not

previously considered. I, too, have long since learned to ignore the ignorance of those who insist on stereotyping homosexuals. Those who insist on stereotyping Christians are equally stupid and deserve just as much respect as homophobes.

The "screaming queens dressed in leather thongs" did it for me. They are the equivalent of righteous Southern Baptists in EVERY way.

Thanks for your insight. I'll try to take it less personally the next time the haters start spewing stereotypes against all Christians because of your thoughts.

Again, thank you... :thumbsup:

[blm]

23. Use the Oldtime Republicans AGAINST the End Times Republicans.

Sane Christians v. End Times Christians.

[flordehinojos]

30. right now the words "christian, "spiritual", "moral values" are so

overused and so misused that i don't even want to hear them. they seem to mean to be nothing more than a plastic label and i rather think in terms, these days, of "plastic people" and "real people".

in my book george bush is a "plastic person" and so are poppy, mommy, laura, the twins as per their campaign appearances ... i would also include rudy giuliani and john mccain in that list, and last night i saw that "God Squad" i think they call themselves, it is a duo composed of a catholic priest and a jewish rabi... they too, especially the catholic priest, i call "plastic people"...wow! that catholic priest (and i was raised in the catholic church) looked like he had a plastic mask plastered all over his face. he looked so fake and the words he said rang so hollow!

real people in my book are capable of acknowledging the pain and despair that the bush goon has seeded upon the world and on our nation.

[Booster]

54. Ok, that's the phrase I'm going to use when referring to

Christian extremists: "God Squad". It's short, to the point, and sounds kinda bad; kinda like "libural". My dream is for someone with a loud voice to start screaming about the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc being more into politics than the IRS allows. Why do these people get to come on television and sway people in a certain direction? I don't care that they have their own tv show, but I resent them being on every other show in mainstream, ie., Today, GMA. How do we get the IRS to investigate these people? Shouldn't be all that hard really.

[bri_in_austin]

34. I vote for bashing them using the following words

Talibornagains, "christians", fundamentalist christians, or rural redneck christian bastards...

I personally am Jewish and have suffered a lot in the past year due to lack of descriptors...i.e. Jews vs Israelis when talking about the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Thus I think it's important that we don't just bash christians because there are loads of good bush-fearing, cheney-hating christians out there who voted for Kerry and deserve credit for their actions.

[JuniperLea]

38. let no man deceive you

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

the 'true' christians will suffer most, imho. those that don't go along with the warmongering leaders (BUSH!) and those that chose to follow the teachings of love. anyone who hates his brother does not know god.

[seabeyond]

39. i am a christian but not a "christian"

what has happened to the word has changed adn it is ok, jesus understands, since he is in our heart, he understands it is a way of evolving, his feelings arent hurt. the people in my area will talk, a christian family, he is a christian child. they label christian in front of what they talk. i had never heard of this before, but went into a gross out with all the labeling of christian.

the other day i told my friend, i reject the label christian from here on out. until we own the word again, i will no longer label myself a christian. they can have the word, because what they are saying a christian is so far off the path of jesus, i dont want anything to do with it

[MidwestMomma]

49. I'm going to start calling myself a "Gospelist'

My faith, such as it is, is based on the Gospels of Jesus, not any book by born-again Paul or the Old Testament.

Jesus said, put all the old laws behind. This is the new law, Love one another.

Those that call themselves 'christians' and yet live their lives by the rules of the old testament completely missed the message. Too bad they are the ones defining what christianity is today.

And as to the original post, that's why I don't get offended when people bash christians, I know they are not talking about me.

[seabeyond]

51. I know they are not talking about me.

yes.

i bash christians and i am one, ol lol, i certainly cant take it personally, bashing self.

i like what you say

[robbedvoter]

43. I am using "evangelist" for all GOPers, regarless of affiliation, beliefs

Squirming ensues.


Democrats are like castrated animals
As soon as they get used to their permanent minority status they'll start behaving themselves and not go around peeing on the furniture and acting up.
Grover Norquist -NOW, Nov 5 2004

[OETKB]

47. The Real Issue IMHO

The idea is not to develop thicker skin, but to start telling people that is not an automatic assumption that people belive or ought to believe the same things you do. The real moral value is respecting personal beliefs and on the belivers side to recognize that they are personal and do not belong in the public arena of laws and governing e.g. putting the ten commandments into a courthouse. It is always easier to say that is the way things are, a frequent right wing tactic, but to progress we have to be ready to have the debate about what is personal versus what is public.

[Wind Dancer]

48. This article sums up how I feel!

Published on Monday, October 25, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
No Longer a Christian
by Karen Horst Cobb

I was told in Sunday school the word "Christian" means to be Christ-like, but the message I hear daily on the airwaves from the “christian ” media are words of war, violence, and aggression. Throughout this article I will spell christian with a small c rather than a capital, since the term (as I usually hear it thrown about) does not refer to the teachings of the one I know as the Christ. I hear church goers call in to radio programs and explain that it was a mistake not to kill every living thing in Fallujah. They quote chapter and verse from the old testament about smiting the enemies of Israel. The fear of fighting the terrorists on our soil rather than across the globe causes the voices to be raised as they justify the latest prison scandal or other accounts of the horrors of war . The words they speak are words of destruction, aggression, dominance, revenge, fear and arrogance. The host and the callers echo the belief in the righteousness of our nation's killing. There are reminders to pray for our “christian” president who is doing the work of the Lord: Right to Life, Second Amendment, sanctity of marriage, welfare reform, war, kill, evil liberals. . . so much to fight, so much to destroy.

Let me tell you about the Christ I know. He was conceived by an unmarried woman. He was not born into a family of privilege. He was a radical. He said, “It was said an eye for and eye and a tooth of a tooth, but now I say love your enemies and bless those who curse you.” He said, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” (Mattew 5: 3-9) He said, “All those who are called by my name will enter the kingdom of heaven." He said, "People will know true believers if they have the fruit of the spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control.“

-more-

This is a stark contrast to the call of the religious christian right, who vote for war and weapons, and suggest towns and villages be leveled to bring freedom and peace to the people. They proudly boast this country’s superiority, suggesting God has blessed our nation. Today, as I listened to a popular christian news network, I was reminded that in the last days, even God’s elect will be deceived, (II Timothy 3:13). When the religious media moguls preaching prosperity spout their rhetoric, I am reminded of the difficulty Jesus described of a rich man’s ability to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19: 24) (http://www.4religious-right.info/rr_economics.htm) Some who believe they are fighting evil will cry to the Lord, and he will say “I never knew you.“ (Matthew 22). They will have a form or godliness but will deny the power (II Timothy 3:5) to move mountains through prayer. (Matthew 17:20). Jesus explained that he has not given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, love, and a sound mind. (II Timothy 1:17) I wonder if the innocent moms and dads, brothers and sisters, and aunts and uncles, and grandmas and grandpas who were the victims of US military weapons (the never reported collateral damages we are protected from in the “liberal” nightly news) felt the love of Jesus with the shock and awe. I wonder if the surviving family members now understand His radical love and that they no longer have any need for weapons or defense.

-snip-

The solutions to the social issues used to manipulate good, decent people have no resemblance to how Jesus responded to the social concerns of his time. He never once mentioned the “right to life” the year he was born King Herod ordered the execution of all babies. (Matthew 2:16). He knew that passing laws does not change the heart. As a follower of his teaching I believe in the right to life, including the children in Iraq who stumble onto land mines, cross the street at the wrong time, or who are snuggly tucked within the warm bellies of their wounded or grieving mothers as US fighter jets fly overhead. These are living, breathing children. The killing of these little ones are never even reported, and our tax dollars pay for these bombs. I believe in the right to life for those in the United States who are unwanted and impoversihed. I believe in the right to life of the naive kid who was promised by the recruiter they could choose a desk job and still get their education paid or could see the world or could accelerate their life or could play a very realistic video game from a cockpit.

-snip-

So I am no longer a christian but just a person who continues trying to follow the example of Christ. I’ll let him call me what he wants when I see him face to face. Until then, I will pray that someday people like me will be able to reclaim the meaning of Christ’s identity, and the world will see the effects of the radical message of Christ‘s love--the perfect love that casts out fear.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1025-25.htm

[sam sarrha]

58. over 100,000 Moslem souls have been delivered to God to be recycled as

christians..in Iraq since the Invasion...

[sam sarrha]

52. The southern evangelicals have taken the lead of the Corporations and

found a way to OWN the Republican Party.

I live in the south in a small town.. i feel threatened by the Invasive Attitude that if you aren't a member of a fundamental church.. you are a threat to these people.

When you meet someone for the first time here.. they shake your hand and smile and say good to meet you, what church do you go to..as the smile fades to a serious leer of suspicion.

It is Damn scary here.. especially when you are a Buddhist.

IN a small town where jobs are limited.

[bri_in_austin]

71. If I were you

I would be scared, too. Maybe it's time to move to a big city. If that's an option for you.

[sam sarrha]

55. in 1930's Germany many said the same thing about the new Nazi party

:shrug: the Fundamentalists are now starting to legislate teaching Christianity in the schools.. and delegislating protections from the government

The last election has given the extremists fundamentalists a new Zeal for running other peoples lives.. you are going to see legislation preventing divorce and many new Marriage regulations and a LOT of school related religion changes.

[Selwynn]

56. No. That's unacceptable to me.

I will not quietly tolerate or accept the un-qualified use of the blanket word "Christian" to refer to negatives and evil without speaking out.

I wrote a post a couple of days ago which was mostly ignored that pleaded with this liberal community to protect us. This community should not give in to the same stereotypical blanket generalizations that we have to endure so many places in the world.

It is not oversensitivity to demand appropriate treatment and respect. I don't believe and will no longer accept this excuse that somehow I should always "assume" people aren't talking about me. I am a Christian. So you can just expect that when you say something like "Christians are evil disgusting wretches" I am going to speak out.

In a time were so many good Christian liberal people feel so assaulted on all sides, this shouldn't be a community that rationalizes and excuses stereotypical intolerant languages, or calls people who are hurting and alienated "oversensitive." This should be a community where people come together and go the dead level best to PROTECT EACH OTHER and go OUT OF THEIR WAY to create an environment of safety and acceptance for ALL members.

When you make a blanket generalization about Christianity, without having the basic sensitivity to actually say what you mean and mean what you say (by referring to say, fundamentalist religious fanatics, instead of Christianity) you are referring to me, whether accept that or not. Of course I don't think by Christian you mean "Selwynn" and Selwynn alone.

But if there was ever a time to go the extra mile in the name of compassion and basic human decency, now would be the time to go out of our way to protect and defend our liberal Christian brothers and sisters, and create for them a bastion of safety within this community - where they would come to feel secure, knowing that no matter what horrible things go on out there in the world, this is a place that goes out of its way to differentiate between their faith and the fanatical extremism of those hurting the country.

That is not too much to ask, and I expect it.

[quaoar]

80. I agree whole-heartedly

[cheezus]

63. I'm not going to stop the republican bashing either

even though there are millions of republicans who are not "power-hungry, theocratic, mind-controlling, fundamentalist zealots"

[tandot]

64. How about "Faux-Christians"

n/t

[LoZoccolo]

72. I've actually just been putting lot of people on ignore.

The last few days have been instrumental in sorting out who's here to foam at the mouth and vent from who's here to be practical and get things done. I've learned that our time is precious in changing this country, and I'm going to try to avoid wasting it on people who are just here to throw tantrums and suck hate from the Internet teet.

[Laelth]

79. Unanswered Question

Earlier a poster asked why the moderate and liberal Christian churches refuse to denounce the racist, war-mongering, intolerant bigots in their midst. I have a theory on that one. It's because they see the writing on the wall. If you want federal money, you got to get on the Republican bandwagon. This is what Bush's "faith-based initiatives" are all about. Federal money to the churches which, if they want more money, get on the Republican bandwagon and expand the base. That's right, folks, our federal taxes go to expand the Republican base. Ain't it lovely?

I am deeply, deeply depressed.

-Laelth

[bri_in_austin]

83. that's a good point

[davhill]

90. Anything anyone has strong feelings about

Can be used to manipulate. Religion is something people feel strongly about thus throughout history it has been used by evil people to bring about crusades, inquisitions, pogroms and theocratic dictatorships. Patriotism, family ties, and fear of the unknown have all been misused in exactly the same way. It is not the people having the strong feelings who should be condemned but those who do the manipulating.

[sangh0]

91. Bingo

that was very well said. I'll have to think about incorporating that into my rants

Thanks