First post

[Magnulus]

Hello, I tried to post to this forum on Nov. 2 but I just wasn't able to.

I vote for George Bush in 2000. I voted for John Kery in 2004, even though I wanted Howard Dean to win the nomination. In 2000 I had some money in the stock market. I also detested Bill Clinton because he presided over cuts in federal assistance programs, and AL Gore just seemed more of the same. I also was impressed by Bush and wrongly thought that he would be a moderate like his father.
I did agree with his idea that some of the Social Security money should be put into the stock market, but I don't want all the money put there. I was still upbeat about the economy and I planned to make money investing off money that my father was giving me. I'm somewhat disabled (nystagmus, strabismus- eye diseases causing low vision), and I don't have regular traditional employment, nor do I have health insurance (right now I'm keeping myself somewhat healthy and just taking herbs, supplements, and all that... but I'm worried by not having any insurance).

Having said taht, I do like George Bush as a person, and I probably share many of his values on a deep level- so I try to avoid mean-spirited attacks on his character. But George Bush as the politician is living in a deeply deluded worldview. He's not a member anymore of a "reality based community" anymore. He's a naive man that's having his strings pulled by his buddies in his cabinet and all these think tanks and the Republican party. And how would he know any different. Before he was elected president, he never left the country. Everything he knows about the outside world is being fed to him by a bunch of handlers.

Politically I am a wierd animal. I am not so pro-abortion that I would call myself as such, in many ways I am pro-life. I think it's horrible so many, many Down Syndrome kids are aborted (in school and life I have met several people with Down Syndrome, and calling them "Life unworthy of life", just is not acceptable to me). OTOH, I think first trimester abortions should have no restrictions, and I also realize that in order to have a low abortion rate, we need to be supporting progressive economic policies that help the poor. I am a was a baptised Christian, but now I consider myself mostly an irreligious spiritual seeker.

I think there is some voting irregularities out there that need to be investigated, but people are saying some very stupid, stupid things. The irregularities in many suppossed Democrat counties can be explained by the Dixiecrat phenomenon (I live in Florida, my folks are from Oklahoma, and being a military brat I've lived around the world and in large part in the Southern US, and I currently have lived in Florida for ten years). These people vote Democrat locally, but nationally tend to be conservative and favor Republicans. It's something a northerner would have a harder time appreciating. OTOH, I think the discrepancy between the polls and the votes is very, very troubling. Something like that just cannot happen by chance.

I think the Democratic party has been fighting an uphill battle with these Dixiecrats and the working class. The message is not resonating. Democrats are too much the party of a social elite, they cannot project their interests into Middle America. It's too easy for Rightwingers to see man-hating-lesbian-"feminazis", gun-banning-Hollywood-stars, and propogandist ideologues like Michael Moore, behind the Democrat party. "God, Guns, Gays" are indeed wedge issues, and the Democrat party is too pre-occupied with social justice issues as oppossed to economic justice. The front of the platform does indeed have to be an economic populist agenda to empower the working class to join the middle class, otherwise Democrats will never make inroads into the "heartland". Some people are screaming about Roe vs. Wade and guns, I'm more worried about Bush stacking the Supreme Court with conservatives that could overtun initiatives favoring universal healthcare and progressive economic policies.

I'm really tired, and angry- weary from the fight. I don't want our country being run by a cabal of liars and con-men, which is what the current administration is. I am just about ready to quit. I am thinking about maybe even leaving the country, possibly going to Sweden (I know several languages, and I could learn Swedish in six months- in fact, I've already started studying more intensively about a month before the election just in case)

[donachiel]

1. Welcome!

It's so nice of you to stop by. What it boils down to is right or left, we all have our "morals" and "values"

[auntAgonist]

3. welcome to you too Pa4Kerry !

[donachiel]

17. Thx!

:)

[auntAgonist]

2. welcome to DU!!

Never say Never and don't EVER quit :)

[burrowowl]

4. Sweden might be too

socially liberal for you.

[Magnulus]

7. Not really

Sweden actually has heavy restrictions on abortions beyond 14-18 weeks. IMO, that's a fair policy and I can agree with that.

They do not have gay marriage, they have civil unions. I'm fine with that. I'm even fine with gay marriage, just as long as they don't force me to call them "husband and husband" and go to their wedding. It's a live and let live thing. Gay marriage really doesn't hurt me, or anybody else.

I'm not saying that gays and gun control are irrelevent and not important. I'm saying that they are not as important as economic issues.

The Democrat party isn't really a "big tent" party anymore. It's too much a party of little special interests.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[quaoar]

6. Welcome to DU

I think it's horrible so many, many Down Syndrome kids are aborted

Do you think that's an easy or cavalier decision to make?

[Magnulus]

9. In some cases, yes

Many people haven't even met people with Down Syndrome. Thanks to amniosentesis and a society that tolerates their widespread abortion, they never will.

I believe in diversity, some people don't I guess. We need to have a culture that respects human life in general, I believe. Why am I not a right winger? Because they are inconsistant in their support of life.

I also think economic policy has to help single mothers and working mothers so they don't have to rely on abortion so much.

[SoCalDem]

25. This is the crux of the "abortion problem". It's NONE of OUR BUSINESS

Unless we actually KNOW the prospective mother, and she CHOOSES to tell us .

It's a decision for HER, the FATHER, and the DOCTOR.. It's none of our business..

Like you said, it's not a cavalier decision, and the casual acquaintances have NO BUSINESS getting in THEIR personal tragedies...and YES, having a "damaged" child born into a family is a tragedy.. It has ripples throughout the family, and forever changes the dynamics of a family.

A young friend of my son is going through this very thing right now.. She is 24, married and they have a healthy 2 yr old daughter. They just bought a "starter house", and she's a stay-at-home Mom.

On Monday (her 24th birthday) she found out that their baby will have down's syndrome..she's 2 1/2 months pregnant..and she's Catholic..

Their daughter is a terrific little girl, and yet the birth of this brother she is to have, will forever change HER life too. At some point in time, SHE will truly be "her brother's keeper".

The young family has only the income of a young Dad who is trying his darndest to support his family, but with a downs child, it will be next to impossible for her to go back to work in a few years as she had planned. They only planned to have 2 kids, since each of them comes from a large family (she-7 kids...he-5 kids). They wanted a small family so that they COULD both work and still afford daycare.. Having a downs kid all but insures that she will have a very difficult time going back to work at all.

A handicapped child absorbs family wealth like a sponge. (I know this from personal experience.. we did little but pay doctors and hospitals for OUR son's care for the first 15 years of his life..)


Due to their families and religious beliefs, they are between a rock and a hard place..

The larger issue is that it's THEIR decision...not Mine or anyone else's...

That's the crux of the abortion issue..CHOICE..

[Celeborn Skywalker]

8. Exactly!

That's what I've been saying all along. The key to winning middle America is to present a populist platform. That's not to say that the Democrats stop seeking social justice, rather that they put economic justice at the forefront.

BTW, Welcome to DU!!:hi:

[NamVetsWeeLass]

10. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[pk_du]

11. Hmmm...cant spell Kerry but can spell "FemiNazi"

pardon me if I keep sniffing!

[Warpy]

12. I can't second guess anyone who terminates a Down's

pregnancy. After all, Down's children absorb a great deal of a family's resources, and not all families are capable of the patience or the expens of raising such a child. It's a tremendous committment, much more so than for a normal child.

Being forced to bear a Down's child my prevent a family with a marginal income from ever trying to have healthy children, and that is sad, just as sad as terminating a fetus with Down's.

I can't judge someone's reasons for terminating any pregnancy. I just know that some of those reasons are compelling.

[Magnulus]

15. Well

Why not work on creating programs that educated and help mothers-to-be to accept a Down Syndrome child as an equal human being, create social programs to help them out?

THIS IS THE WEDGE ISSUE you can use on the Right in this country. They believe in not aborting fetuses. That's great. But they want to cut money to help out disabled Americans and poor mothers.

I can fully understand poverty making it hard for parents, especially parents with a disabled child. That doesn't mean I cannot find the decision to destroy a child that will be different form its peers, morally abhorent. Again, diversity is important.

Some deaf people are against cochlear implants, too. They value the diversity their culture and difference has created . Differences should be celebrated. We don't need homogenous people. Disabled people need to be celebrated for their humanity, not condemned for their differences.

[TexasBushwhacker]

13. First off, welcome

I know of no one who is "pro-abortion". If you believe that first trimester abortions should be legal, you are pro-choice, whether you label yourself that way or not. While I understand your misgivings about Down's Syndrome children that are aborted, I can tell you that they actually make up very few of the abortion cases. At worst, after the mother is 40, the rate for Down's Syndrome is still only 1 in 40 (2.5%), and not every one of those pregnancies is terminated.

FWIW, the problem with Social Security was that Bush is suggesting that each person should have some of the money they put into Social Security set aside as theirs, and invested as they see fit. The SS system was set up so that the workers now pay the benefits for the retirees now. It was never set up like a 401k, where you had your account that you put money into and drew money from upon retirement. Bush saying that this is a way of fixing Social Security is just plain bullshit. It's a way to hoodwink more people into investing into the stock market, particularly into 401k's, which generates commissions and fees for Wall Street. He doesn't give a shit about the benefits we're going to receive at retirement, and pulling anything out of the amount that's put into SS now, even just 10%, is going to cause hell to pay when the baby boomers start receiving benefits in the next ten years. It's a bad plan, and it's not for the people anyway. It's just one more form of corporate welfare,and frankly, we don't owe Wall Street shit.

But again, welcome to DU.

[Magnulus]

16. Not true

Now 90 percent of fetuses with Down Syndrome are aborted.

[SoCalDem]

22. Could you please cite the source of that number.. it seems quite high

and Welcome to DU..:hi:

[phylny]

24. Would you be kind enough to cite a reference?

I work with a lot of kids with Down Syndrome, and I understand the joys and difficulties families face when caring for such a child.

[TexasBushwhacker]

27. I also think the number sounds high

Now, it's possible (although I still think 90% would be high) that a large percentage of fetuses that are found to have profound birth defects are aborted, but that would include many problems including Down's Syndrome. I also know that they can predict, to some extent, the degree that a Down's Syndrome child will be affected. It all depends on how much of the extra chromosome is present. The more afflicted children can have heart defects and other physical abnormalities.

[phylny]

31. During my pregnancy with my last child, tests came back that led us

to suspect she might have Down Syndrome. I ended up seeing a genetic counselor at the urging of my obstetrician.

She was wonderful, and we talked about many things, including the fact (according to research) that the rate of SPONTANEOUS abortion (miscarriage) is much higher for children with a chromosomal anomaly. That's because things don't develop properly, or your body somehow aborts the baby. So, to start with, the rate of CONCEPTION of children with Down Syndrome is higher than the rate of birth, many times because of miscarriage.

In addition, the doctor told us that further testing may end up causing a miscarriage. Her exact words (and I remember this 13 years later) were:

"You have to decide what's worse for YOU - giving birth to a baby with Down Syndrome, or having the tests cause a spontaneous abortion of a perfectly normal baby. You have three choices: have more testing done, do nothing, or have an abortion now."

For me, it was a no-brainer. I am pro-choice, but I myself would not have had an abortion, even if the baby had birth defects. So, we decided to do nothing. She was born and was/is perfectly healthy.

So, I do question the figure. There are many women who don't even get prenatal testing for birth defects, so I can't see how 90% of fetuses with Down Syndrome are aborted, other than perhaps by spontaneous abortion.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Welcome, Magnulus!

You should go to The Lounge forum and introduce yourself.

Welcome to the fray!

[Magnulus]

20. Ok

Good to know in the future. I wanted to post here because I was talking about some of the politics of the Democratic party.

If you want you can move the thread to the Lounge, I suppose.

[Lindsay]

18. Welcome, Magulus.

Sounds like you have given a lot of thought to your positions. Most of us lefties believe thinking for yourself is a good thing.

[Daisey Mae]

19. Welcome to DU Magnulus !!!

Happy to know that you have thought some issues through and have rejected the idea of a Liars and Con-men who treat their people like dirt..are not good leaders.. no health insurance, no jobs, economy sucks, gasoline on it's way to $ 10.00 a gallon.....A war with no end that seeks to kill as many people as possible..... I do disagree about your thoughts on abortion...Like you I am not in favor of it for myself (My choice) but I understand that all women don't share my feelings and I allow them privacy to choose as they want... It is their body and I should have no say over it....maybe they are not in a position to be a Mother.... It takes money, health care, food, rent, and etc. They would have to earn if they have no one to help her when she is giving birth and after wards when she must constantly care for the baby.... it takes resources....I DON'T LIKE THE IDEA OF PEOPLE FORCING INTO SUCH A PERSONAL PART OF ANYONES LIFE ESPECIALLY NOT THE GOVERNMENT.... instead they should put their energy into making Peace and offer health care and jobs.....

[Aunt Anti-bush]

21. Welcome to DU.

At least you're not alone. I think we're all a little weary, but we can get through it together and come back stronger.

[JNelson6563]

23. Got any more reich-wing slogans?

Ugh! :puke:

[ebayfool]

26. social elite?

"Democrats are too much the party of a social elite, they cannot project their interests into Middle America."
--------------
Maybe this doesn't belong here, but I twitch every time I see this idea thrown out by MSM, Repubs & repeated by some here. I work as a housekeeper (now there's an elite job for you!) & am raising my handicapped grandson - ALL those 'elite' toilets I'm swabbing are being soiled by Republican behinds! Why is this 'Democrats are a party of elites' line so common? I know some are but damn, folks, every Dem I know are people like me. Did I get promoted & no one told me? I want a raise! Sorry, had to get that out. Just wondered why this aristocratic theory seems to fly in the face of reality unchallenged & see no posts except here that it fits. (I know, I'm working on my post count so I don't have to worry @ poaching the wrong thread!):wtf: :hurts:

[DemonFighterLives]

28. The election sort of hinged on abortion

But I believe it was Lizardbreath Dole that was proclaiming "choice" at the republican convention. Kind of a wink wink nod sort of thing. The pubs did not have a straight anti abortion platform. And neither Dems or anyone else is pro abortion.

Oh, and welcome to DU

[Trahurn]

29. Welcome. You're like many of us

While it is your right to like anyone you wish and I would never want to either interfere nor criticize those who you chose to like but just as a personal comment. I do not know (for the life of me) how anyone can like George Bush. Again that's only my opinion and am not in anyway trying to interject mine over yours.
I agree with your overall premise on a very clear and inexcusable level. You see George Bush did in 2000 and will soon again in 2005 unless a miracle happens to prove voter fraud will raise his right hand and take an oath before all men (his country men) and if you believe also in the presence of god. He took and will take an oath to "Preserve" "Protect" and "Defend" the constitution. He has clearly violated that oath many times over which makes him, in my view a traitor to his country and should be impeached.
It is quite clear the right wing fanatics seek to destroy that which Bush swore and oath too as they have great difficulty living within the guidelines of our constitutions.
I wish you the very best of luck. We are all going to need it.

[HEAVYHEART]

30. Welcome Magnulus!