Barf Bag at the ready: U.S. is behind Ukraine standoff

[StClone]

Hope this isn't a dupe.

Seems Bush knows who won in Ukraine...

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Ian Traynor
Friday November 26, 2004
The Guardian

With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1360080,00.html

[Nikepallas]

1. I'm not surprise at all. I can't wait until the truth comes out in our

media--OOOPS I forgot to get out of my fairy tale world. We can all take a lesson from the Ukrainian people.

[RegexReader]

39. the truth will out before

the electoral college votes! They cannot cover it up that long!

RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Color me surprised, NOT

I am betting condy is behind this... she hates putin and the ruskies

[gordianot]

5. But her boss stared into Putin's soul.

Condi want the Communist to return so her Doctorate will not be irrelevant.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Prolly right, there.

[burrowowl]

3. I knew, I was

wondering when others would know it.
Typical U$ Ops.
I mean, if you read: one is a Russian flunky and the other a U$ flunky. The people get to chose (ha!ha!) which flunky they want.

[Cleita]

4. Does make sense.

Colin Powell denouncing fraudulent elections, the media all over this for freedom and democracy. I was suspicious from the beginning, especially when our own Nazis seemed to be on the right side of this.

[Helga Scow Stern]

6. If it worked in Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev....

"The final stage in the US template concerns how to react when the incumbent tries to steal a lost election.

In Belarus, President Lukashenko won, so the response was minimal. In Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev, where the authorities initially tried to cling to power, the advice was to stay cool but determined and to organise mass displays of civil disobedience, which must remain peaceful but risk provoking the regime into violent suppression."

[w4rma]

7. I refuse to give this misadministration credit for this, unless I see alot

more. It may be that some of the good folks within the CIA, who haven't been kicked out by Goss yet, have helped this along. And considering that this is the same template used under President Clinton, this is probably the case.

[FloridaPat]

8. Whenever Bush butts in, there is fraud. Especially when there is oil

nearby.

[sangh0]

9. These guys are the good guys

Yes, the US *is* involved in the non-violent opposition. And we should be. This movement is similar to Otpor's non-violent tactics which are based on writings of Gene Sharp and others. Here's some additional links to some background on this

http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr72.html

http://www.fragmentsweb.org/stuff/10sharp.html

http://www.bookbestsellers.net/181379gene_sharp.html

http://www.hermanos.org/nonviolence/dictodem.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp

http://www.peacemagazine.org/198.htm

[OneBlueSky]

10. gee . . . can't wait to see how Brokaw and Jennings cover this . . .

NOT! . . .

[SeveneightyWhoa]

11. I smell anti-Americanism in this thread.

The Bush administration is actually doing the RIGHT thing here.

What is with the anger demonstrated in this thread? Come on now, people.

[Carolab]

12. DON'T YOU GET IT???

IF they make it look like they DON'T back FRAUDULENT elections then the STOOPID PUBLIC here will think that our OWN election ISN'T fraudulent....


SEE?????????

[StClone]

13. And too

We are pissing money away in foreign lands to manipulate vote outcomes. Proving voter manipulation is down to a Science and most likely practiced on Americans. Ukraine's election has irregularities and a U.S. backed popular voter riot seeks to redo the election. However the same irregularities occur in the USA and the powers that be seek fit to ignore them. Sickening.

[elehhhhna]

14. Excellent analysis.

[sangh0]

23. Actually, it's a terrible analysis

We are pissing money away in foreign lands to manipulate vote outcomes. Proving voter manipulation is down to a Science and most likely practiced on Americans.

This statement can not be justified by the info in the article or by the US's actions in the Ukraine. The US is NOT manipulating the vote; The Unkrainian govt (with some assistance from Putin) is manipulating the vote. The US assistance to the opposition is in the form of advice on how to organize, as well as providing material aid in the form of fax machines, copiers, computers, cell phones, etc - IOW, things to help them get the opposition's message out in a nation where the govt controls the media

Ukraine's election has irregularities and a U.S. backed popular voter riot seeks to redo the election.

There have been no riots over this and the reason for this is that the US's advice to the opposition is based on principles of non-violence. Please review the links I provided in an earlier post for more info on what the US is doing in the Ukraine. It always helps to base one's conclusions on actual info, and not supposition.

However the same irregularities occur in the USA and the powers that be seek fit to ignore them. Sickening.

Again, not true. In the US, unlike the Ukraine, candidates could, and did, get air time, and were allowed to advertise. In the US, unlike the Ukraine, opposition candidates weren't beaten by thugs, or arrested by the govt. In the US, unlike the Ukraine, opposition candidates weren't summarily ruled ineligible to run.

[0007]

64. Much under current. Looks like the rich are winning.

[jokerman93]

40. Bingo!

This is nothing but a form of trance induction - theater for our "benefit".

[Spazito]

15. The only reason the bush admin is 'doing' anything is because...

they want their puppet in rather than Russia's puppet in. It has nothing to do with protecting the 'democratic' rights of the Ukrainian people and everything to controlling both the assets of Ukraine and reducing Russian influence in the area.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

16. So?

You'd be willing to accept voting fraud in Ukraine just because the 'winner' made the Bush administration angry?

What is this about putting 'democratic' in quotation marks? Sounds like you have something against Ukranians having a right to vote.

Also, how is Yushchenko anyone's "puppet"?

Your post sounds very irrational and bitter to me.

[Spazito]

17. It is simply the real world, geo-politics...

the reason I put democratic in quotation marks was in direct relationship to the hypocrisy of the bush admin pretending they care about the democratic rights of Ukrainians any more than they care about the democratic rights of Iraqis or even their own citizens. Yushchenko is supported by the US administration and if you think they are doing that out of the goodness of their hearts, you are sadly mistaken.

I find your championing of the bush admin surprising, to be honest. The Ukrainian people deserve democracy but, sadly, with the interference of Russia and the US, it is highly unlikely regardless of who ultimately wins this new 'cold war' confrontation.

[sangh0]

24. Then you are opposing the democratic will of the Ukrainians to spite bush*

Regardless of the intent of bush* admin, and regardless of your hatred for bush*, the fact of the matter is that the Ukranians have a right to free and fair elections. Your response demonstrates no concern or consideration for their rights, and instead, judges everything on the basis of bush*'s intent.

I find your championing of the bush admin surprising, to be honest.

This sentence shows how your focus on bush*'s intent to the exclusion of anything else, such as the rights of the Ukranian people to a free and fair election, makes you incapable of seeing another poster as being in support of the Ukranian people, and not the bfee.

[Spazito]

26. My focus is on the bush administration and their policies...

which are NOT to increase democracy but rather to foment revolution in other countries to install puppets sympathetic to US interests. Do YOU think the US administration (note, I did not use bush) is protesting solely for the protection of democracy in the Ukraine? If so, I would be very interested in what you would base that belief upon.

[sangh0]

27. Right, you are ignoring the rights of the Ukranian people

Thanks for confirming my assertion that you give no consideration to the rights of the Ukrainian people to a free and fair election.

Do YOU think the US administration (note, I did not use bush) is protesting solely for the protection of democracy in the Ukraine?

I'll address the bush* role in this when you address the rights of Ukranians

[Spazito]

29. If you agree they are not "protesting solely for the protection of...

democracy in the Ukraine", what ARE they doing then? Seeing as bush IS the US administration and the thread is about interference of the US administration, why would I not focus on the subject of the thread?

[sangh0]

31. The Ukranians deserve a free and fair election

When you start addressing the rights of the Ukranians --a point that is central to this issue, and which you have ignored so far-- I'll address the irrelevant point of the bfee's intentions

Seeing as bush IS the US administration and the thread is about interference of the US administration, why would I not focus on the subject of the thread?

Because you are wrong. If you read the article, you'll see that most of the aid comes from organizations like The Democratic National Convention (you know, The dreaded DNC) and George Soros' Open Society. If you were to read the links I posted in an earlier post in this thread, you'd see that the organizations involved promote non-violent opposition.

But then again, maybe not. You don't seem to see anything but bush*, bush*, bush*.

[Spazito]

33. I read your links..

with interest, thanks for posting them. The are many players in the current situation in Ukraine including the US and Russia, of that I would hope you can agree. The Ukrainian people most assuredly deserve to determine their own future without interference from others, imo.

I note in your listing of those involved you left out the Republican Party's International Republican Institute and the US State department.

Here is the listing from the article:

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

[sangh0]

34. Thank you

I'm sure the repukes are as interested in this issue as much as the Democrats (and others) are, though they have a very diffferent motivation for being interested in this. However, the important point here is what the likely consequences are, and IMO, it seems the likely result from this "interference" is that the Ukraine might actually have a fraudelent election overturned, and inarguably Giid Thing.

I have no doubt that the repukes interest is motivated by a desire for their oil, and other resources, as well as preventing Russia from gaining power in the Ukraine. However, their interest serves the interests of the Ukrainian people, so regardless of their motivations, their actions are serving to aid the democratic interests of the Ukranian people. This opinion of mine is further supported by the fact that no one here has been able to point to any detrimental effects of the repukes involvement in this issue.

[Robbien]

20. Bush sends National Endowment for Democracy brownshirt mercs

to the Ukraine and you call people irrational and bitter who doubt Bush motives?

When Bush send NED to Haiti a president was kidnapped. When Bush sent NED to Venezuela a coup was staged.

Your posts sound very pro-Bush to me. Bush has no interest in helping any country except for helping himself and his cronies to that country's assets.

[sangh0]

25. The article says NOTHING about the NED. Did you make that up?

or do you have a link or anything to support your claim that this is the NED's work?

The article points out that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY, as well as George Soros, is funding this

[Robbien]

30. See the Common Dreams article

http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/1122-12.htm

For fraud on the Russian side you had Soros

For fraud on BushCo's side you have:

National Endowment for Democracy, International Republican Institute, National Democratic Institute, Konrad Adenauer Foundation ("Christian Democrat") and Friedrich Ebert Foundation ("Socialist") of Germany, European Peoples Party (the conservative Christian Democrats), all to mobilize Catholic Ukrainian cultural "nationalists" and the youth for Yushenko against Yanukovich, Ukrainian economic nationalists, and Russia.

[sangh0]

32. And you believe them?

Did you know that CommonDreams doess absolutely NO fact checking? It merely prints articles that are submitted to it.

Did you notice that there is no supporting evidence for their claim that the NED is involved in this?

Did you notice that CommonDreams refers to Soro's and Otpor as "sabatuers"? Did you also notice they don't mention even one single example of sabatoge?

[Robbien]

35. Okay perhaps you will believe a right wing site which says

NED is in the Ukraine.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1012

and if you google Ukraine and the National Endowment for Democracy you will get over a hundred hits for their involvement in this election.

[sangh0]

37. So the NED sent "election observers"? So what?

"National Endowment for Democracy brownshirt mercs" is what you called them, even though you haven't shown that they've done anything more than observe an election, and comment on it.

You also haven't shown how contesting this election does anything to harm the interests of the Ukrainian people.

[Robbien]

38. I am just saying that the Ukrainians are between a rock and a hard place

If Russia wins then they are in for a world of hurt. If BushCo wins they are in for a world of hurt.

It is a lose-lose situation.

There is a lot of material on the net about what the National Endowment for Democracy has done in other nations and none of it has been good. So it is very believable to me they are pulling the same brownshirt activities in the Ukraine.

[sangh0]

41. You're characterization ignores the Ukranian people's interests

You describe it in a way that totally ignores the interests of the Ukranian people in having a free and fair election.

The election wasn't between Russia and bush*. It was for two UKRAINIAN candidates. If the US supported candidate wins (and "bush*" is NOT a candidate, AND it's also the EUROPEAN supported candidate), the Ukranian people benefit. That's why you don't mention HOW a victory by Yuschenko would put the Ukraine in "a world of hurt"

Your analysis is based on the mistaken notion that this is a Russian vs bush* election. It takes no consideration of the interests of the Ukrainians.

There is a lot of material on the net about what the National Endowment for Democracy has done in other nations and none of it has been good. So it is very believable to me they are pulling the same brownshirt activities in the Ukraine.

Like what? There's been no coup. The only "brownshirt activities" that have occurred during this election were perpetrated by the other side, but you have remained silent about such things like:

1) The beating and summary jailing of opposition candidates
2) The media's collusion with the govt
3) Ballot stuffing
4) Multiple voting
etc

Your concern over "brownshirt activities" would be more credible if you addressed ALL of those activities, instead of ignoring one sides violent actions, while speculating about the other sides.

[Robbien]

42. You want me to only talk about one side's bad activities

and not the other. I believe both sides have been committing fraudulent activities.

You say this should be about Ukrainian interests and I agree. But how does one know for sure what the Ukrainian interests are? In Florida 2000 the protests in the streets were said to be representing the American interests. We know that those protests were supported by Baker and BushCo. It is possible the Ukrainian protests are also being supported by outside influences.

[sangh0]

48. "But how does one know for sure what the Ukrainian interests are?"

How about "By holding free and fair elections?" Isn't THAT how we know what the Ukrainians want?

In Florida 2000 the protests in the streets were said to be representing the American interests. We know that those protests were supported by Baker and BushCo. It is possible the Ukrainian protests are also being supported by outside influences.

It's not "posssible" that the opposition is being supported by outside influences - we KNOW it for a fact. So what?

Unless you can show that these outside influences have done anything inappropriate in the Ukrainian elections, and you haven't, you have nothing to complain about.

And the protests aren't being supported by "Baker and BushCo". That's another of your distorted characterizations. There's a LARGE number of NGO's involved in this election. That's why they're called INTERNATIONAL observers, and not just American observers.

SO far, there isn't one aspect of this situation that you haven't caricatured.

[Robbien]

51. We will just have to agree to disagree

You believe the Russians are the only bad guys in the game while I believe both the Russians and the BFEE are the main nasty players. With the media being in the sorry state it is, the true situation will probably never be known.

[sangh0]

55. You are making stuff up again

You've made several accusations against the "outside influences" in the Ukraine, but you haven't stated ONE shred of evidence to support you. You've also made a number of statements that are flat-out untrue.

Now you're trying to tell me what I believe.

Obviously, in addition to have no evidence, you have no integrity either.

[Robbien]

56. Now

You choose not to believe the LAIndy media story in Common Dreams and since I do, you say I make things up.

You are right I do not know what you believe and shouldn't have said I did. Your stance to me appeared to be what I said, but it seems we are not communicating effectively.

Time to end the discussion.

[sangh0]

58. Don't pretend that the NED is the only claim you've made

You've said the opposition was controlled by Baker and Bushco*.

You said that if Yuschenko wins, the Ukraine is in trouble, but you haven't said how.

You've claimed that outside influences have engaged in inappropriate activities, without any evidence.

You've made many claims, and provided NO evidence to support them.

[Robbien]

63. my answers for the last time

opposition was controlled by Baker and Bushco

The opposition in Florida was controlled by Baker&BushCo. I've said that BushCo has its hands in the opposition of the Ukraine just the same as it has had its hands in the opposition of Venezuela. The LAIndy media article in Common Dreams also stated BushCo is pushing the Ukraine opposition and NED is all over this election per Google{ideas which you dismiss and I do not}.

if Yuschenko wins, the Ukraine is in trouble, but you haven't said how.

True. But I've also said I believed BushCo is the power behind the Yuschenko campaign. In the past four year when BushCo gets control of the ruler of a foreign nation, that foreign nation starts selling off national assets to global corporates to the detriment of the people in the nation. Similar to most African/South&Central American versus BushCo situations.

You've claimed that outside influences have engaged in inappropriate activities, without any evidence

Well I've said its NED. And NED is bad, very bad. Just one statement of many, according to the National Catholic Reporter : Many analysts contend the National Endowment for Democracy was created in 1983 to replace some CIA activities, covertly supporting political parties, unions, newspapers, book publishers, student groups and civic organizations. It carried out everything from assassinations to economic sabotage.

The group's involvement in Venezuela "is in keeping with a pattern from NED's very origins when the Reagan administration used it to do overtly what it was trying to do covertly in Nicaragua -- undermine the Sandinista revolution," said Peter Kornbluh of the National Security Archive in Washington. "The difference of course is that Chavez was elected and the Sandinistas were a revolutionary government."

As I said, this is going to be my last response because we are just not communicating. So you get the last word. Have at it.

[sangh0]

66. So you admit to pushing speculation as fact

Granted, I misinterpreted your remark about Baker and bush*co controlling the opposition. You meant in Florida 2000.

But with the other two statements you admit to speculating and having no evidence that these things have actually happened in the Ukraine. Your argument about how the opposition is somehow inappropriate is based on nothing more that guilt by association and a complete disregard for what the Ukrainian people want. You didn't recognize that a free and fair election is the way to determine what the Ukrainian people want.

[tx_dem41]

21. I agree with your sentiment, but....

...you are also making the assumption that the "good guys" didn't commit vote fraud. I'm not willing to make that assumption yet (or the opposite assumption, either). Time to sit on the sidelines for the time being, and watch...carefully.

[LisaL]

53. He wants Ukraine to join Nato.

Bush must be dreaming about military bases in Ukraine, right next to Russia. You do the math.
:eyes:

[veggiemama]

65. Check out Yuschenko's wife--Katherine Chumachenko . . .

She's Poppy's girl, big time!

[tx_dem41]

19. It could be the RIGHT thing, if no fraud occurred.

I think this article at least hints that the exit polling could have been rigged. IMO, whoever won the election (taking the fraud out) should win, regardless of who is on OUR side.

[tom_paine]

22. What about Free Elections HERE? THAT'S what people are pissed about!

Take your bullshit "Anti-Americanism" comment and shove it.

It means NOTHING if we are doing this for or to the Ukraine one way or another, if our elections and media are as crooked as China's!

[sangh0]

28. So the Ukranians have no right to free elections unless we do?

.

[tom_paine]

43. Of course they have that right, I was responding to the previous post

as to why people are pissed at this.

Imperial Amerika is interested in Free Elections in the Ukraine but NOT here.

Any "help" we give is from a poisoned wellspring and suspect.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

46. Gee, and they say Americans only care about themselves!

See, your government cares more about democracy in OTHER nations! What a kind, noble, selfless group of folks! :)

[LisaL]

54. I find it extremely ironic that Bush is worried about fair

elections in Ukraine.
The irony of it must be lost on you.

[sangh0]

59. No, it's not

I see the irony, but I won't let it cloud my eyes and prevent me from seeing how the Ukrainian people would benefit from a free and fair election.

You said nothing about the Ukrainian people. Their interests must be of no concern to you. There's some irony there, too.

[LisaL]

61. Well, if you think Bush has interest of Ukrainian people at heart-

I hear Operation Iraqi Liberation is short of people at the moment.
:eyes:

[sangh0]

68. Keep avoiding talking about what the Ukrainian people want

I'm sure no one will notice

:eyes:

[Monkie]

69. we dont know what the ukrainian people want

we know the USA wants to bring their own special kind of democracy to the ukrainian people.
we know the russians want to bring their own kind of democracy to the ukrainian people.
after your own voting experience and your media's silence on the subject it doesnt seem to me to be to big a leap of the imagination to question that same media's take on whats happening in the ukraine.
from the article:

"The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy"

your recent experience with US pollsters and professional consultants is they are working for the good of the people?

i can understand why from your point of view the involvment of the USA democratic party in this "grassroots" effort proves that there is nothing sinister here,but from my perspective its telling considering the silence of the DNC and kerry&co on the votefraud issue and might give you a hint as to what kerry the "having your back" statement really means.

disclaimer,i'm a cynical old-europe person :D

[sangh0]

70. We know how to find out what they want

It's called "free and fair elections" something you neglected to mention in your obsession with the evils of the US.

it doesnt seem to me to be to big a leap of the imagination to question that same media's take on whats happening in the ukraine.

Umm, the media throughout the entire world is reporting on this. You don't have to depend on the US's biased media. You might also want to speak to some actual Ukrainians. I don't think they are part of the BFEE's conspiracy.

Reports from the Ukraine have nearly a million Ukrainians protesting in Kiev. Are they all a media invention? For how long will you ignore their desires?

"The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

SO what? You havent shown anything wrong with this. The same orgs were involved in Serbia's elections and the elections in East Timor.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy"

Plot strategy? How nefarious!!!

your recent experience with US pollsters and professional consultants is they are working for the good of the people?

This has what to do with the Ukrainian elections? You're gonna have be coherent if you want to be understood.

i can understand why from your point of view the involvment of the USA democratic party in this "grassroots" effort proves that there is nothing sinister here

I never said that anything proves anything. I merely pointed out that no one in this thread has identified ANY wrongdoing on the part of these orgs.
'
disclaimer,i'm a cynical old-europe person

And you're not a very coherent one either. You claim that there's some sort of wrongfdoing being perpetrated in the Ukraine but you have yet to identify one example.

[Monkie]

72. we have different frames of reference maybe?

i thought the original article from a non-usa source was clear enough about the wrongdoings?
i wasnt trying to prove anything :)
i dont doubt the election in the ukraine wasnt free and fair.

if taliban connected pollsters and billionair bin-laden's islamic relief charity (fictional) where busy during the USA elections involved in grassroots efforts to change the outcome i think it would be called sinister?
and i know you are going to say the usa is nothing like the taliban.
but
it again depends on your frame of reference.
viewing this from outside the USA i see a constant pattern of american involvement in dictatorships across the middle-east,asia and south-america and of suppressing governments/movements that wish to effect change going back to at least the end of WWII

and i dont see anything changing its just getting more blatant.

i could google up 1000's of links from reputable sources to "prove" this involvement but this is common knowledge as far as i'm concerned

i was trying to provoke thought :P

[maryallen]

62. What Tom said ...

Who are you working for, SangHO?

[Oilwellian]

36. Please define what "Americanism" is these days

Thanks in advance.

[Spazito]

18. Here is a fact 'sheet' on Ukraine...

with some interesting data, imo.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html#Econ

[bvar22]

44. If a foreign country...

...were involved in OUR elections at ANY level, we would consider it an ACT of WAR!

[SeveneightyWhoa]

45. Your elections had a bunch of international observers.

I don't recall any bombs or tanks going off.

[Robbien]

47. Soros was involved

While I liked the fact he was involved because his intended end result was the same as mine, his involvement was a foreign interest.

[bvar22]

49. There is a difference between...

Soros' involvement here, and the involvement of the US Government covertly attempting to influence the outcome of the electoral process in a soverign nation.

For one thing, Soros was honest and open about his goals.

Two, Soros donated money to existing American organizations as an individual without a particular govermental association.

[Robbien]

50. I agree with you, but you should have seen the uproar over

at freeperville. They consistantly screamed foreign intervention. Ha!

And again you are right. Being open about ones intervention is a whole different animal than the covert intervention BushCo is currently doing over in the Ukraine.

[anonymous44]

57. I have relatives in Ukraine...

and believe me Leonid Kuchma is not a great man. The government is corrupt that it's not even funny. The country definitely needs a change and Yanukovych is not that change. He is basically Kuchma's successor who will follow in his footsteps (not a good thing). Hopefully, Yuchshenko will become a president. My mom's relatives told her that some of their friends were told to vote for Yanukovych. Besides, Yuchshenko was poisoned just look at his face now. He looks like 70 compared to 50 just 2 months ago. If you believe that the elections in Ukraine went fair, then you are clearly blind. I'm glad that the world helped Ukraine during this crisis.

[LisaL]

60. Do you really think Bush would help anyone

out of the goodness of his heart?:eyes:

[sangh0]

71. Some people have no concern for the Ukrainian people

It's "bush*, bush*, bush*" and nothing but.

[DoNotRefill]

67. The article says Soros also is supporting it...

Not EVERYTHING the US does is bad.