Pro-Life? And Democrat.

[MaryH]

I don't think there is a hidden agenda for many pro-life people. They just don't want to see babies killed. And they aren't pro war or pro executition, either. Life is just a holy thing.

Or maybe that is the women talking. Men have a different take on the issue - maybe?

But if our society was not so horrible to young women who get pregnant, there would not be the number of abortions that we have now. And that would be a win-win situation.

So many young women are simply scared to death and abortion is the only way they see. If we treat these women like pariahs (some are actually stoned to death in other countries) then they will become so overwhelmed by fear and shame that they will choose abortion. When they may not even want to.

I would think that we could come up with some better alternatives.

[itzamirakul]

1. Nothing wrong with that...

as long as you don't try to enforce those beliefs on others who don't feel the same way.

On edit:
Teach and educate others to believe what you believe, but don't legislate to FORCE them to follow your beliefs. Freedom of choice should be the rule.

[MaryH]

3. You don't even have to teach others or force your will on

them. I just think that if young women were treated differently they would react differently. I don't think any woman "wants" to get an abortion. Its just that sometimes it seems like the only choice they have.

If families would stop acting like assholes and if society would stop stamping these young women with giant red "A"'s it would help.

Something about us - we seem to love to point fingers and say "see how horrible they are! She had sex (oh, my God) and got caught!"

If those women were treated with love instead of dirision they might feel like they had more options.

[Merlot]

36. I think some women would prefer to have not gotten

pregnant, and since they don't want to have a child, DO want to have an abortion. Maybe they know the father won't be there for them, maybe they don't have any financial resources.

Maybe they just don't want to have a baby. It is possible, you know. Saying that you don't think any woman wants an abortion is your personal belief. But it's a miguided assumption.

There are many women who have children alone in this society and are not branded with the red A. It's so common now that the idea of many people pointing fingers is rather quaint.

Pro-choice means that you make the choice you want, AND you support the choice the other person wants. You don't force your beliefs, religious or otherwise on that person.

I think the term pro-life is a misnomer. They should be called the anti-abortion side, because they don't support the life once it's born.

[LittleClarkie]

59. True pro-lifers support all life

I've seen their movement in the Catholic Church. Against abortion, against war, against capitol punishment.

I would like to see more emphasis put on birth control, myself. If someone doesn't want to have a baby, we need to do as much as possible in the preventative stage rather than waiting until it is in some of our eyes "too late."

I'm not down with legislating or insisting that another woman do or feel as I do, or in going with an absolutist stance on any of this. Even partial birth abortions have their reasons, mostly because of severe, lethal birth defects making it difficult if not impossible for the mother to deliver without a c-section. And why put the mother through that for a child they know can't survive. How can radical pro-lifers think that we are so insane as to want to kill a child about to be born because we suddenly decided at 9 months that we didn't want it? What a bizaare issue.

I know that if it was my decision for my body, I would be pro-life. I appreciated that my candidate felt the same way. Some didn't understand the personally pro-life, publically pro-choice stance, but I did because it was my own.

We have to remember that abortions were down under the Clinton years, that the abortion rate is lower in the blue states than the red, and that there are more abortions being performed under this pro-life president. Abortions, or lack thereof, have much to do with hope for the future.

But as I say, if you're taking about abortions, then you're dealing with the problem way too far down the road. Root causes must be addressed.

(climbing down off soapbox)

[itzamirakul]

46. In the 1950s and prior...

there were "homes" for the bad girls who got pregnant. They were taken out of school and their parents either sent them away to family members out of state or put them in one of those homes. That is why there were so many illegal abortions in those days. And so many deaths as a result of those back-door, wire-hanger operations. To get pregnant out of wedlock was a total humiliation for the family. Like suicide, your entire family was stigmatized. I would hate o see that mind-set return.

[Padraig18]

2. I agree.

We also need to recognze that there is a difference between 'pro-birth' and 'pro-life' on this issue. They are NOT the same, although we frequently lump them together.

[MaryH]

6. I'm not sitting in judgement here.

But I know how frightening it can be to be pregnant and all alone. And to be so afraid of your family's reaction and societies reaction that you simply don't know what else to do.

And it is stupid that society and families treat young women so badly. A little human kindness sometimes goes a long way.

[Padraig18]

10. That's why I bring up the distinction.

Some groups who are pro-life, like the Roman Catholic Church, do provide an actual 'support network' of medical care, housing, edcation/job training, an adoption network, etc. . In that regard, they 'put their money where their mouth is', IMO, which is what sets them apart from those who are simply 'pro-birth'.

[mitchtv]

61. also Pro life can be pro choice

If you are anti choice that's another thing

[Crunchy Frog]

4. I'm not in favor of legally restricting abortion

but I do think that society should do more to offer support to young women who find themselves pregnant, or who have children they have difficulty supporting. Society should do more to provide day care, health care, subsidized housing, help with education and job training and that sort of thing.

Apart from that, their should be more effective sex education and better access to effective birth control.

I think that both approaches would help to dramatically decrease the demand for abortions.

[RPM]

5. Abortion doesnt kill babies....

A baby is an ex-utero object; Distinguish from a fetus.

Life may be holy for some - but I disagree. One shouldn't take another's life, but ony because it belongs to another living human being. Holy has nothing to do with it - who determines holy???

BTW - are cow's lives holy too? If not, how did you arrive at the idea that their lives aren't?

And yes - if society (and life in general) wasnt so hard on all, especially young single, women who get pregnant: that's one reason why abortions were down under clinton, up under bush - a good economy makes it easier to bring a child into the world

[MaryH]

9. It's OK to think life is holy - all life.

Its OK to have religious conviction. Or just respect for life in all forms. It is OK to work for finding alternatives to abortion.

We can't just throw our children out into the world and expect them to just make it somehow. And then drop a ton of bricks on top of them when they make mistakes. And then wonder why they make the choices they do.

It is a difficult choice to chose an abortion. It is probably even more difficult to choose to give a child up for adoption.

Why can't we go back to having more extended families? Then there would be support for young girls - and help with a new baby.

I'm just throwing out ideas here.

[tx_dem41]

13. And very good ideas indeed.

Thanks, for your contribution. Your first three sentences are so obviously heartfelt, you have made my morning.

[RPM]

15. It's OK to the extent...

that your conviction does not impede upon my life. If I got pregnant today I would rush to the clinic and aborth without a second thought. It is not my time to have a child - end of discussion. I do not see where your religous conviction should enter my equation.

And please: answer my question about cows - are their lives not holy to you? If not, why?

Yes - I agree we can't throw children out there wihtout love and support; That's a given.

But if you want a reason we can't go have more extended families, its because its goddamned expensive. Economic realities must be faced. Industrial and post-industrial society shifted children away from being production units (johnny - milk the cow; janie - collect the chicken eggs) into consumption units (johnny: "I want an X-Box" Janie: "I need a prom dress"). To support this - more parents in the workplace... Not to mention that its hard to work and raise kids (and work while pregnant)

If you want large families, it almost necissates a family with no consumptive desires past sustinance and paying mortgage/rent - forget about college.

[Crowdance]

30. "Going back" to a time when women were required to

perform the role of wife and mother and to stay in the kitchen is no solution. It's obvious that if in this country women were paid equally with men, if health care and child care were universally available, and if women were recognized as fully human, with an innate moral agency, it would be possible for more women to carry pregnancies to term.

However, we may never require them to do so. And certainly we may never require them to do so to satisfy someone else's religious beliefs. If you truly believe that you would like to work to lower the abortion rate, you must dedicate yourself to working for women's social, economic and spiritual justice.

[REP]

70. You First

You are spending money for an internet connection that could be spent helping a "new baby." You could sell your computer and do even more.

You first. Don't just throw out ideas - if "babies" are being "killed," surely you can do more than sit on yur ass and TYPE about it!

[davhill]

72. A Fetus is a Human Being

It is geneticly human and it exists. It does not magicly become human when it passes through the birth canal. To avoid that is to oversimplify the argument.

[REP]

73. A Toe is Genetically Human and Exists - is it a Human Being?

Of course not. You are confusing human with human being. A human being is human, born and alive. A human fetus is a human fetus. To say otherwise is to be disingenuous - or dishonest.

[RPM]

74. the wad of skin in my mouth is both of those two things also...

... it does not warrant any 'protection' however. Sorry, but I'll stick with the 14th amendment which extends the protections of the Constitution to "all persons born and nautralized" - even if the wad of cells is human, the founding fathers had it in their wisdom to specifically exclude all persons "unborn".

[Padraig18]

7. Iceland is an interesting society to study in this regard.

In Iceland, there is no stigma associated with 'bastardy', and they have a low rate of abortion, even though abortion is available 'on demand', essentially.

[GeorgeGist]

8. Huh?

"But if our society was not so horrible to young women who get preg(n)ant". Not consistent with "Pro-life" or life is holy ideals is it? In fact it is blatant hypocrisy.

'Society' seems to believe that Society decides which lives are holy and worthy of Pro-moting.

I am a man, but I do believe that women have the right to create, or not create, a child of their own free will. And no a fetus is not a child.

[cali]

17. Roe addresses viability

allowing states to intervene after a fetus has reached the stage of development where it could survive ex-utero. And I see that as a good thing. We on the pro-choice side of the argument need to discern between a fetus of say, 2 months gestation and one of 7 months. A fetus is a fetus is a fetus makes no sense to me at all. Having said that, it is clear that women have very few late term abortions and the vast majority of those are performed only in cases of gross fetal anomolies, or the health or life of the mother.

[RPM]

19. My mother believes in abortion up to the age of 18.

Or at least thats what she threatened when i was a child :-) Her justification: to protect the life of the mother.

ahhhh - the humor of a pro-choice house-hold

[MaryH]

49. I have to admit there are some people I know who are a

good argument "for" abortion.

[REP]

71. What Happened To "All Life Is Holy"?

If ALL life is holy, how can ANY life be a "good argument "for" abortion"?

[Deja Q]

11. I am pro-life. I am also pro-society.

The way our society is being ran, I see pro-life-until-birth-after-which-it's-dog-eat-dog-and-may-you-otherwise-die. And that ain't no society by any measure.

Back to the point, it is also up to the woman - not us - if she needs or even wants an abortion. And in our dog-eat-dog world, the fetus may be better off terminated, I regret to say.

[sportndandy]

12. How about make it a crime

to breed without a permit. That includes married folks. Violation would result in a seized child and forced sterilization of both parents. Not a lot of repeat offenders. The money raised from breeding permits could go to caring for the orphans.

Or were you looking for something more warm and fuzzy?

[tx_dem41]

14. Your sarcastic solution doesn't address any of the feelings that...

she expressed.

[MaryH]

20. I remember back when abortion was illegal and it was awful

for young women. I had a friend who went to Mexico and a friend who went to Oregon.

Young girls are really vulnerable. They often really don't have a whole lot of knowledge about the world and about men and about the way people manage to manipulate people for their own advantage.

I don't know that there is any answer to that except that young women really need the support of other older women. Women who have enough years behind them to know that getting pregnant is not the end of the world or the end of life for that girl.

I kind of like that end of the word or idea of bastardy. That sounds like a good thing to me. Children would just be welcome additions who bring joy to everyone. Not some horrible burden to a lost young girl.

[saracat]

68. But it will definately make her life harder and probably

deprive her of any sort of career! And sorry, for most it will be an unwanted burden not a "welcome addition" ! How can something that takes away your youth and ruins your life be considered "welcome" ?

[MaryH]

24. There are religious people out there who are not wackos!

We just seem to hear more about the ones who are.

Boy is that a loaded questions or what?

I'm religious but I don't think I'm wacko. It does make me think about stuff more than I normally maybe would.

[tx_dem41]

26. From your posts this morning....

you're definitely not a "wacko". I would say "thoughtful".

[Malva Zebrina]

16. I can understand your postion

I have just a couple of comments

First--it is important to be word conscious-- the majority of abortions performed, are not performed on a "baby". I have said this over and over. It is a fetus.

The term "baby" may be used by a pregnant woman who actually wanted the pregnancy. She will often proudly refer to the growing fetus as her "baby" but has no right to refer to another woman's uterine contents as a "baby" This is one area where the religious right has changed wording and language to force pregenancies by activating guilt in the woman by convincing her she is a murderess.

When discussing abortion, the majority of which are done quite early on the pregnancy, the fetus cannot be referred to as a baby, simply because it is not. It is a fetus--a group of cells, unaware, not conscious, and by no means a baby.

Second--forced pregnancies are never a good idea. Every pregnancy carries risk to the mother.

The Catholic religion forces pregnancies, in effect, by guilt association ie, accusations of sin, and this attitude stems from primarily paternalistic values. It is nice to provide homes and shelters to those who would put the baby out for adoption, but the choice to abort should NEVER be referred to as a sin, or as murder, or a pregnancy as some unchangeable condition for the purposes of forcing a pregnancy on any woman. The use of birth control, if someone really wants to help the plight of women, should be taught up and down, backwards and sidewards and those homes for pregnant women should provide that service as well if they really care about women. I know, though, they also consider the use of birth control as a sin, unacceptable, even in casese of rape, and that the Catholic hopsitals refuse to offer emergency care to women who are raped, and refuse to perform tubal ligations or vasectomy

So, while all are free to choose according to their belefs, many women do not see a fetus as a
baby" and do not need to be counseled to carry a pregnancy to it's completion for the sake of saving a "baby". They have things to consider that are vital to their lives, and to the rest of their family at times.

The use of the "pro-life" mantra is also specious and intellectually dishonest.

[MaryH]

22. Honestly, I just don't know how I feel about that any more.

But for people that do feel that a pregnancy is life they should have better options. Maybe that makes more sense.

Lifelong guilt is a heavy burden for someone who was young and frightend to death. We should reach out to those people and just plain help them.

Older women can do that. We have a lot more experience in matters of life and living - and we need to offer that experience - not a whole shitload of guilt and blame.

[RPM]

23. Where does this guilt and blame come from?

Personally, I feel sympathy for young, single mothers - tough tough situation. I also feel for the child - the child is being shorted to some extent.

But what institutions heap guilt on these people - and how can we either alter their position or marginalize them?

[MaryH]

28. From an anthropological viewpoint

guilt is probably something conjured up to keep society in control of behavior.

Getting pregnant inappropriately was not good for the society as a whole. So we came up with guilt and shame and the concept of sin to deal with it.

But those are old, outdated ways of dealing with pregnancy outside of approved societal boundaries. You would think we would know better now.

Lets face it. Kids are going to screw around. Its exciting and fun and daring. And they don't have anyway of really knowing just how bad the consequences can be. Kids just don't think that far ahead.

We need to come up with some new ideas here. Like Iceland did.

[RPM]

32. Yes - And what sociological groups perpetuate this shame.

I certainly do not.

Who is doing this - who is the bad guy? And why?

[RPM]

42. Ok - since there were no takers....

Who is perpetuating this shame.

The moral values led by the religious right, particularly the churches.

Jeebus loved everyone except promiscous women....
(as if)

[MaryH]

48. My computer is just barely working this morning.

Shame is taught. Women alone with a child were very vulnerable. But there is also the thing of men wanting the child to be theirs and not another male's - like bears killing cubs that aren't theirs. I have no idea how much of that kind of behavior is written in our genes.

But, whatever the reasons or the sources of the shame - we need to get rid of them and find another way to handle this stuff. Those reasons are all outdated. I'm not sure how far back those ideas go -but probably hundreds of generations. Our society has changed. We need to find other ways and throw those old ones in the trash.

[RPM]

51. yep - one of the reasons i have rejected religion...

... they are holding on to those outmoded ways of thought.

So I happily put the church on the shitheap - I have no time for folks who would treat a mother with shame and ignominy.

[WildClarySage]

37. "Getting pregnant inappropriately was not good for society as a whole"

This isn't true. It wasn't perceived as good for women to have enough sovereign power to express herself sexually. The guilt and shame wasn't about any burden on society, it was about keeping women from being in control of themselves. If it was about burdening society, TPTB would have (would make) made birth control a priority.

[immoderate]

50. Good point RPM.

If there can be guilt for aborting a fetus, there could be the same guilt for using contraception.

--IMM

[WildClarySage]

27. But many many women who abort do not feel guilt and blame

they feel relief and perhaps sorrow over lost possibilities. Most women who feel guilt and shame are reacting to the shame-on-you-babykiller tactics of a "pro-life" movement that doesn't give a rats ass about the emotional health of the women involved.

[MaryH]

29. Then they don't have to worry about it.

I'm just talking about the one's who do. And what we as a society do to them.

[tx_dem41]

34. I don't see where anyone has claimed that all women do

...feel guilt and shame.

[WildClarySage]

40. My point was addressing something

that may not have been argued here, but has been argued in this debate in the past- that abortion is bad because it hurts the woman with crippling guilt and shame all the rest of her days.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. You have a lot of compassion Mary

This older woman would counsel them as to the reasons guilt is heaped upon them for simply being a normal human being possessing the very strongest impulse we happily possess as human beings--the pleasures of sex which do not always NEED to end in a pregnancy and in this day and age, to procreate is NOT considered the primary reason to enjoy sex, and also to a complete overview of the fetal stage during which abortion is performed,complete with pictures, real ones, not the manufactured ones shown on the "pro-life" sites and billboards, so as to remove any overbearing guilt. I would also counsel them as to the logical fallacy of the "potential" baby.

No Catholic or fundamendalist organisation would have this older woman on the staff LOL :bounce:

But, kidding aside, surely there would be a place for a caring and empathetic person such as yourself in the position of comforter and I am sure it would be needed.

as an after thought: And what of the father?

[JI7]

18. many latino voters

oppose abortion rights yet still vote democratic because of things such as education, labor, worker's rights.

[tx_dem41]

21. Yet at the same time, they are vulnerable to shifting due to this issue...

We shouldn't take them for granted.

[Feathered Fish]

25. Act locally to change attitudes

If this subject truly does bother you, which is a perfectly human thing, you should act locally with your community to change the attitudes of young, unsure mothers-to-be.

I don't feel exactly the way you do on the subject, but it is a valid opinion, and I think there is too much disparity in the opinions of the members of the Democratic party to enact some sort of policy alternitive, however you CAN make a differance in your own community.

[MaryH]

33. The Democratic Party doesn't have to be "The Abortion" party.

There are a lot of us out here who are religious and who have a lot of problems going with either side. Its just not that simple for a lot of people.

I'm not willing to sit in judgement. I am not willing to go with one side or the other. I sit in the middle somewhere. But that is just my feeling.

I don't think Democrats have to debate the abortion issue. That is not a political issue. It is a religious issue.

[RPM]

35. and for those of us who reject religion - it is a personal issue n/t

[Feathered Fish]

38. I hear ya.

But I think the label of "Abortion Party" was coined by a bunch of rightwingers. I understand your opinion and I am sensitive to your religious beliefs, don't get me wrong.

The Democratic party stands for much more (obviously) than abortion. I think that it is a wedge issue that is pulled up every 2 years for elections, in order to prey upon people of strong faith and sway them towards the right.

[lostnfound]

41. I wish it would be left up to individual politicians more..

and not presented as a plank in the platform. It bothers me that abortion, an issue which quite a few of us are ambivalent about, is the one issue on which the party seems to be totally sold on; while it backs away so much from taking a position on wars (either in general or in specific).

[RPM]

43. I wish it would be left up to individuals...

I still have a problem finding any state interest in the abortion question.

There is no compelling interest on behalf of the state:
- More babies = more taxpayer?
- Protect fetuses? What's next the skin on the inside of my mouth?

The only interest I see is them having a regulatory interest that it is done safely - at any time during pregnancy.

[FizzFuzz]

52. Maybe if we coined it "The Women's Education and Dignity" party

The more access women have to actualize their unique individual potential, the less trapped they will be in deadend patterns.

Learning that, as a girl she has no worth beyond the "power" she can briefly enjoy by attracting the attention of boys puts young women squarely in the jaws of the trap of early motherhood, which is a high risk factor for poverty. And it spirals downward.

Education is the single greatest deterrent to teenage motherhood. I would add, along with education, or as a spur to seeking education, girls need the support of the Wise Women of the community, as some folks here have mentioned.

[Royal Observer]

54. Right

The Democratic Party doesn't have to be "The Abortion" party."
The Democtatic Party wants to be the abortion Party.
It's womens votes that count

[Paladin]

39. This Is Exactly How The Anti-Gun Control People Started At DU

One thread at a time. Now the pro-gun types virtually own the gun forum here, and their trashing of John Kerry shows no signs of abating. There are forces at work right now trying to get the Democratic Party to jettison its principles, all based on the same highly dubious notion that moving to the right will get us more votes. As if this nation isn't Republican enough already. Look for supposedly well-meaning, "I'm a good Democrat" individuals to show up next, advocating that we walk away from our support of gays.....

[More Than A Feeling]

44. I sympathize with the original poster

and I understand to some extent the arguments of anti-gun control.

Anyone who thinks walking away from gays is a good thing can kiss my @$$

[MaryH]

47. I am not a right-winger.

I absolutely hate the idea of this war. And I really think selling AK-47's is dangerous in society. And I live right in the middle of the Bible Belt so I know what the right-wing is doing on a daily basis.

But Abortion is just too hot for it to be a political issue.

Have you ever seen what the topic does in any meeting. Just bring it up and watch the place get torn in two. People just have such strong feelings about it - both ways.

All I am saying is that there might be other ways to deal with the whole thing. Ideas that the poor people who have mixed feelings about it could support.

[FizzFuzz]

53. Turn the conversation around to Education and Empowerment of Women

hmm, I wonder...change the subject on those who would try to use this for wedge purposes, and focus on what will REALLY help everyone (but I also am categorically against the idea of criminalizing abortion)

More personhood for girls, less sex/babies out of self-hate, ignorance and loneliness, more kids born because they were planned for and wanted, less strain on society, reduction of population by peaceful means. Sounds good to me.

[SheilaT]

45. It's important to understand

that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are not really opposite sides of the same coin, but two totally different approaches to a specific issue.

It's also important to remember that the abortion rate is probably almost unchanged from what it was prior to Roe v Wade.

I'm old enough to remember the old days, and I know plenty of young women who got an abortion somehow or another. It was done, and there was an entire underground network of information out there, although all too often it led to an unskilled butcher.

Our paternalistic, monotheistic society says that women and their bodies are the property of men, and wants to control those bodies, including the babies that come from them. That's why marriage and having children is so important, and why bastardy (having a child to whose father the women isn't married) is also important.

But even more to the point, many ideas about abortion got fixed when it was something that more often than not would endanger the life of the woman. In a society where every woman's life was important, where each one was needed to bear the children who would keep the tribe or clan alive, it was crucial she not readily seek out something as likely to kill her as not. And so, strong societal and legal pressures were put in place to discourage abortion. And now, when it's a relatively simple and safe procedure, all these old ideas are still out there, haunting us today.

[clutchcargo]

57. reply to SheliaT

It is way more complex than old ideas haunting us---There has to be some reasonable compromise --When you see the films and pictures of a perfectly formed fetus sucking its thumb or smiling or yawning it has to make you pause and question your stance---I know that a woman should have say so over her body, however there comes a point in time during the pregnancy when it requires society to consider the unborn child----When exactly this is i do not know but i do know that eight months and twenty days is too late----There is a responsibility that a woman bears to make the decision to abort at a reasonably early stage in the pregnancy---I understand there are exceptions and they must be made--also we must ALWAYS allow for the health of the woman or for rape or incest or even if the child would be born with so many defects that it would have no quality of life---Most people in this country are in the middle on this thing-both re-pubs and Dem's---Allow access to abortion for any reason up to some reasonable time in the pregnancy then start to consider the life of the unborn------clutch cargo

[SheilaT]

64. Those pictures of

a perfectly formed fetus are of one at seven or more months gestation. The very vast majority of abortions are first and second trimester abortions. And if it weren't so incredibly difficult to get an abortion in this country, even more would be first trimester ones.

There's this myth out there that women casually decide to have abortions, that somewhere a couple of weeks before they're do to give birth they go, "I think I'll abort this baby" and then waltz off to some clinic to do so.

I do agree about there comes a point in the pregnancy, but guess what? It's already at that point. What we need is decent access to birth control, early abortion and emergency contraception everywhere. No questions asked. THAT'S the real pro-life stance.

[TahitiNut]

55. "don't want to see babies killed"??

Any position that relies upon such extreme and false language is a morally bankrupt position. I regard myself as both 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' and I'd never lie to support my position. In being 'pro-life' I oppose capital "punishment" (it's NOT a "punishment" - it's murder) and I support public poverty programs that would absolutely guarantee food, clothing, shelter, health care, and education to every person. In being 'pro-choice,' I oppose any disenfranchisement to such programs on the basis of the choices people make in their lives where they are the only 'victims.'. Thus, I oppose the criminalization of drugs (including tobacco and alcohol), I oppose mandatory helmet laws, and I adamantly oppose any legislative behavior control based on some purported 'cost to society' - and tobacco is one such area where the so-called economics have been propagandized beyond any truth whatsoever.

If truthful representation is abandoned by the proponents of any position, that position isn't worthy of support.

[SarahB]

56. Why is it that most pro-lifers want to cut both....

1. birth control funding?
and
2. social services programs?

Seems to me the best way to eliminate abortion is to make sure people have easy access to free and effective birth control and well as safety nets within the government so if they do have an unplanned pregnancy, they're not faced with poverty (daycare's expensive, folks). Most pro-life/anti-choice folks aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is.

[readmoreoften]

62. It's because they are Forced Birth Advocates

They are Pro-Birth and Anti-Liberty. They are against Liberty and Justice for All.

We progessives are Pro-Choice and we are totally for life. Once an infant is born they he or she becomes a valued individual member of society and we want them to live! We want them to have food, shelter, education, and opportunities. We don't want them to become fodder for financially motivated wars.

Pro-Birth, Anti-Liberty, Forced Birth Advocates concerned with Bedroom Values?

-OR-

Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Pro-Liberty Advocates who are concerned with the health and wellbeing of the American people?

[maxrandb]

58. Absolutely, but you may have boughten into the rights Orwellian

language. Look, of course I am pro-life. Problem is that the right uses that term to divide people. If you are allowed by the media to call yourself "pro-life", it makes it easy to argue that those opposed to you are what? "Pro-death"? "Anti-life"?

It's kind of ironic when you look at the statistics. Under "moral" president Reagan, the rate of legal abortions rose steadily. Under "immoral" President Clinton, legal abortions reached their lowest totals since the passage of Roe v Wade. Since God's own chosen one has been in the White House, abortion is once again on the rise. That would not appear to make a whole lot of sense now would it? Why would abortions increase when the "so called pro-life" party is in power? Talk about things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Could it be that the "pro-life" party doesn't give a crap about abortions, and is simply giving lip service to their base?

I don't like abortion as a type of birth control, but I would never require a woman to risk her life, or health and ability to have children, by forcing her to deliver. I also feel that it is not my place to tell a woman, "you must risk your life to give birth to this baby when we know it's brain is on the outside of it's skull."

Democrats have shown, and the facts back them up, that sound economic policy, access to affordable health care, education, sex education, and access to contraceptives REDUCES THE AMOUNT OF LEGAL ABORTIONS! I want to capitalize and emphasize this point, because in reality, DEMOCRATS ARE THE PARTY OF LIFE>

[readmoreoften]

60. NO. You don't get to call yourself "Pro-Life"!

We're ALL pro-life. Maybe except for the neo-conservatives who are for profitable murder.

You are not 'pro-life' you are PRO-BIRTH and if you are ANTI-CHOICE then you are a FORCED BIRTH ADVOCATE.

The question is: Do you support FORCED BIRTH INITIATIVES or not?

[tedzbear]

63. The baby is inside HER body, not mine.

So it's up to her to decide what to do about it, not me.

[kohodog]

65. They're killing babies, kids, mothers fathers, grandmothers in Iraq

and they claim to be pro-life?

Give me a break. The Chimp executed how many criminals (among the innocents) in Texas and he's pro-life??

[Cleita]

66. Pro-life means you will stop eating.

It's a matter of language not principles. Think about it. Pro-life in this specific political argument means nothing more than anti-abortion. Women need to be militant about being controlled by the pro-life stance.

[housewolf]

67. Abortion Issue Languaging

I wrote this in reply to a post in the Politics forum. I think it applies here so I am posting it here too. For whatever reason, the terminaology around the abortion issue is a hot button for me, so full of distortion.

Anyway...

We should never (in the past, present or future) use the term "pro-life" to describe anti-abortionists. They are not pre-life. They are anti-abortion rights. This is one of those distortions that conservatives have so successfully re-framed. We need to take this back. They have no compunction in referring to our position as pro-abortion. I have heard even democrats use this term and it is an absolute distortion. Dean distorted our message when he used that language. We are pro-choice, pro-abortion RIGHTS but NOT pre-abortion (at least most of us - there may be a few people out there who actively promote abortions but there are not very many of them). We just can't let them continue to own this issue throught their languaging.

[REP]

69. Anti-Gay? And Democrat

I don't think there is a hidden agenda for many anti-gay people. They just don't want to see the family killed. And they aren't pro divorce or pro cohabition, either. Marriage is just a holy thing.

Or maybe that is the believers talking. Maybe unbelievers have a different take on the issue - maybe?

Don't like this hate speech? Then you know exactly how I feel about these vile, nasty, despicable sentiments ("they just don't want to see babies{sic} killed" - implying that those for choice just can't wait to kill them babies) and them being associated with the Democratic Party.

The only time I notice "society" being "so horrible" to pregnant women is when I escort at a clinic. Then I see plenty of oh-so-loving 'pro-lifers' screaming their love in codewords, like "Babykiller!" and "Whore!" Don't see that so much at the obstetrician's office, but maybe in the black-is-white upside-down bizarro world of the original post, such things happen.

I can think of a GREAT alternative right now - stay the FUCK out of other people's business.