If Dean wins the nomination and Lieberman endorses Bush...

[ButterflyBlood]

would you be suprised?

the way things are going now, I wouldn't.

[Walt Starr]

1. Nope, nor would a defection to the Republicans by him surprise me

I absolutely believe that Lieberman is in Bush's pocket and a defection will be the October Surprise if Dean is nominated. I really see no other way for Bush to win should Dean get the nod.

[oasis]

2. I believe Joe will be running for the senate again in 2006.

He will still want to be influential in that body.

[Racenut20]

3. That would never happen

He is a lifelong dem and doesn't like the repugs

[demnan]

4. No

He'll just wait to see Dean get elected and then stab him in the back like they all did to Clinton.

[jos]

5. I would be surprised

if either happened. As much as I don't like Lieberman, there's no evidence that he would switch. The Republicans could offer him a committee chairmanship, but he would be risking his seat in '06.

[montanacowboy]

7. Embarassed and Disgusted

Watching Holy Joe during the debate last night - the little puppet had his marching orders from his masters at the DLC - target and smear Dean. This guy is so revolting I simply cannot stomach even looking at him anymore. If you noticed, he barely got applause. Time for this double agent to go away.

[jos]

11. I agree but

the DLC is not going to vanish overnight. They're fighting for control of the party and Joe's is their man for right now.

[ButterflyBlood]

12. that's good though

because when Holy Joe gets his ass kicked in Iowa and NH, the DLC will become irrelevant.

[Sterling]

21. Wanna bet?

The word is out about the DLC. They are over.

[CMT]

6. Lieberman will endorse the democratic nominee

even Howard Dean. His attacks on Dean last night are nothing new in this type of race. Bush the first called Reagan's economic plan, "voodoo economics" and ended up on the ticket.

[damnraddem]

19. Last night was a love fest compared to other intraparty debates ...

in both major parties. What Lieberman did was not beyond the pale of what generally happens. The thing is that it was outside the tone set by the debate last night -- the unanimity on Dubya bashing. What generally happens is irrelevant -- the big thing now is to dump Dubya; and the other candidates were all firmly focused on that. Lieberman showed himself to be odd pol out, and likewise so branded the DLC (although they could find others of the candidates to snuggle up to in the absence of Lieberman).

[wtmusic]

8. I think the Republicans could use another washed-up candidate for 2008

the race is sure to be a real nail-biter. Maybe a Lieberman/Dole ticket?

[diplomats]

9. Much as many here don't like him

Lieberman is a Democrat and would never endorse a GOP candidate for president.

[Classical_Liberal]

18. Judging by his supporters, many of whom admit voting for shrub

I don't know how you can be so sure.

[markus]

10. I would only be surprised

if he expected to get funding from the DNC/DSCC in his next election if he did so.

[TheYellowDog]

13. Come on Butterfly

Lieberman has already said he will support the Democratic nominee for president, but he hopes that it will be himself. Why do you need to post threads like this? It seems every anti-Lieberman thread on here is posted by you, like you have an obsession with him. I think that Lieberman is a stand-up Democrat.

[damnraddem]

20. I don't notice who posts the anti-Lieberman threads.

I just enjoy them; and consider them essential.

[Sterling]

24. I think that Lieberman is a stand-up Democrat.

I have a feeling you will be more and more unhappy in the Democratic party if you really feel this way. The writing is on the wall and the DLCers are on the outs. The future lies with Dean at the moment and I can't see the party surviving another move to the right ever again.

[IrateCitizen]

28. He may have that (D) next to his name, but his agenda is another matter

Even dolstein, a hard-core Lieberman supporter, has acknowledged that Lowell Weicker was slightly more liberal than Joe Lieberman.

And Lowell Weicker was the Republican who held the CT seat that Joe won.

Joe Lieberman's stances are pretty much in line with old-school NE Rockefeller Republicanism. He's pretty good on the environment, pro-choice, pro-civil rights, and fiscally conservative with extensive ties to corporate America. I consider it a sad day, indeed, when he is considered to be a "stand-up Democrat".

[Classical_Liberal]

29. Wouldn't it be nice if they took back the republican party?

instead of the democrats.

[IrateCitizen]

31. AMEN!!!

THEY are a group of people you can deal with. You may not agree with them, but at least they're interested in finding the better way of doing things.

More and more the Republican Party has been taken over by ideologues, people who are so convinced that they are right that anyone who doesn't agree with them is evil. Just look at Tom DeLay for the face of the modern Republican Party.

There is no reasoning with these people, no compromise. At least with Rockefeller Republicans you can actually engage in a serious debate!

[TheYellowDog]

33. I'm not a hardcore Lieberman supporter,

but if Lieberman really cared extensively about corporate America, why would he have a 90%+ AFL-CIO rating? I honestly think that Lieberman is just as liberal as Dean, but that he is just trying to distinguish himself from everyone else in the field.

On edit: I fixed a spelling error.

[IrateCitizen]

40. Oh, I don't hold out any illusions that Dean is some great liberal hope!

But Joe Lieberman is, by far, the most conservative Democrat in the race. His conservatism among Senate Democrats is probably matched only by Nelson, Breaux and Zig-Zag-Zell. Well, I'll admit that Zell Miller is worse than Lieberman, because Miller is more in line with the Southern Republicans. :puke:

You can give the overall ratings all you want, they don't mean squat unless analyzed as to what the bills were where he voted the wrong way. And given Lieberman's opposition to stricter accounting rules in 1996-1997 that would have stopped the massive pension defrauding of the past few years, coupled with his reluctance to do ANYTHING to come down on the widespread corruption throughout corporate America (See "Enron Democrats" by William Greider at www.thenation.com), I stand by my opinion.

The only way that Lieberman is distinguishing himself from the rest of the field is his absolute disdain for ANYTHING resembling populism, his adherence to the idea that what's good for corporate America is good for everybody else, and the fact that he comes off as unwilling to fight for ANYTHING that goes against the agenda of his corporate masters in the insurance/banking/accounting/telecom industries, along with his unwavering hawkishness with regards to the Middle East.

And it's also indisputable that he unseated a Republican more liberal than he was, and comes from a state that is more liberal than most.

[jos]

34. Irony

Now Weicker is backing Dean.

I remember in '88 rooting for Weicker, primarily because Bill Buckley kept talking up Lieberman. From that, I knew there was something fishy about Joe. And he hasn't disappointed me. From his flirtation with voting for Clarence Thomas to last night, the man has been a leading anti-progressive within the Democratic Party.

[Classical_Liberal]

41. I remember that too

.

[legin]

14. Just a little thought that sort of flashed by

Supposing say Dean wanted to pick a vice president that unites both left and right wings of the Democratic Party, which is political usually considered quite a smart thing to do, and so he picks Lieberman as his VP, a Dean/Lieberman ticket.

Just thought i'd bring it up. :evilgrin:

[damnraddem]

22. Aside from antipathy, and how little Lieberman added to the Gore ticket,

an all-New England ticket just ain't gonna happen. That is also why there will be no Dean/Kerry or Kerry/Dean ticket.

[dolstein]

42. Gore would strenuously disagree

Gore would -- and HAS -- argued that Lieberman brought a lot to the ticket. He has said repeatedly that the best decision he made was selected Lieberman as his running made. He has never gone back on this statement.

Perhaps you're real beef is with Al Gore, not Joe Lieberman.

[damnraddem]

15. As much as I dislike Lieberman, I doubt it.

For one thing, the corporate elite need him as the Bush-lite Democrat. What could he really add as a Republican?

For another, that would jeopardize his ability to be reelected. Changing parties is one thing, although that can also be a threat to one's electability. But turning traitor while still a party member might just do him in.

No, I think he'll do sufficient damage as a Democrat. Remember: he can try to sabotage a Dean campaign from within the party.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. no

no

[JefferyD32]

17. UH. . . Right

no way Leiberman endorses Bush it would be political suicide if he wanted to continue to be a Dem.

[Classical_Liberal]

23. Who says he wants to continue being a dem

? His actions don't say that. Besides there is no rule against dems endorsing Bush. Many of his neoliberal peers were involved in Democrats for Reagan groups.

[LeftCoast]

25. For the last time! Lieberman is NOT, I repeat NOT a Republican

He may be more conservative than we like, and he may be completely off-base when it comes to Iraq but he is not a Republican.

C'mon people, we're supposed to be the educated and intelligent side of the political spectrum. These kind of comments are becoming an embarrassment.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. He said if we don't accept the Bush tax cut we deserve to lose

His supporters are openly comparing Dean to Hitler. Please see next cover of the New Republic.

[dolstein]

38. Try telling the truth for a change -- Lieberman opposed the Bush tax cut

And he wants to rescind all but the small portion that benefits middle class families. Why do you insist that Lieberman supports the Bush tax cut when he wants to get rid of all the tax cuts for the rich? Many of the middle class tax cuts were originally proposed by Democrats, and Democrats would have overwhelmingly voted for them had they been in a stand along package.

Please, for once, stop lying about Joe Lieberman.

[Classical_Liberal]

43. Then why did he say that?

. He was either misreprenting himself or the dems.

[dolstein]

48. Easy, he didn't

Go ahead, find the exact quote. I'm sure you'll find he was talking only about the tax cuts that go to the middle class. And I agree with Lieberman that it would be a political liability if the Democratic nominee were seen as wanting to raise taxes on the middle class.

You'd have to be living in a cave somewhere to believe that Lieberman supports the Bush tax cuts. He's voted against each and every one of the Bush tax packages, and he has consistently criticized Bush on giving huge taxes cuts to those who don't need them. But like Bill Clinton, Lieberman supports middle class tax relief, and he wants to keep things like the reduction in the lowest tax bracket (from 15% to 10%) and the expanded child tax credit in place, while repealing all the tax cuts that go to wealth taxpayers.

[RogueTrooper]

26. No

I do not think that will happen. Lieberman will remain true to the party. Now, Zel Millar... That is another matter.

[edzontar]

30. Joe should get out NOW

Maybe his "Dean Depression" line was lame and maybe it was in keeping with the tone of past debates, but i don't think that soundbite squabbling is what we either need or deserve right now.

A civil discussion of issues is the best approach--and for the most part, with the only exceptions being Joe and (to a lesser extent) Dennis, the right tone was followed by all.

With Clark as the wild card, it seems clear that the nominee will be either Dean, Kerry, or maybe Gebhardt, with Graham or Edwards leading VP picks.

I am assuming, of course, that Joe is history after last night.

[redeye]

32. Yes, very

He's firmly in the Democratic wing of the Republicratic party. In criticizing the other wing's policies he's more of an R-of-R than a D-of-R, but when it comes to committees, endorsements, and that kind of thing he is fiercely Democratic.

[JanMichael]

35. I may not like Joe but I seriously doubt that's possible.

He's not the Devil...

[dolstein]

36. Why don't people ask these things about Clinton and Gore?

Joe Lieberman was on the NATIONAL ticket for chrissakes!!!!

Why is it that so many people are utterly determined to ignore the mountain of evidence that Lieberman is in fact a DEMOCRAT.

I suppose the fact that he was the party's VP candidate in 2000 would have convinced at least 99% of the people out there. Those on the fense would likely be persuaded by his lifelong membership in the Democratic Party, including roughly thirty years of holding elective office as a Democrat. And even the most stubborn of hold-outs ought to be convinced by the fact that is voting record is far to the left of 95+ percent of Republicans in Congress. Lincoln Chafee is the ONLY Republican in the Senate who even remotely votes like Lieberman does.

Sorry, but no sane, rational and sincere person would argue that there's even a remote chance that Lieberman would endorse Bush.

[ibegurpard]

37. First off

I'd be extremely surprised to see Lieberman endorse Bush. However, to answer your question, people don't ask these things about Clinton and Gore because Clinton and Gore aren't going out of their way to paint Dean, a moderate, as way too left for the Democratic Party.

[dolstein]

39. They would if they were seeking the nomination

Perhaps you didn't follow the 1992 primary or the 2000 primary, but there's no doubt in my mind that if either Clinton or Gore were running against Dean, they'd be making making of the same charges Lieberman is making.

[Classical_Liberal]

45. How come none of the other candidates did it last night

then?

[dolstein]

52. Because Lieberman is the only true Clintonite in the race

Unlike the other candidates, and the overwhelming majority of DU'ers, Lieberman actually embraces the policies of the Clinton/Gore administration, including support for free trade and pro-growth economic policies. He's running as a New Democrat because that's who he is. He's not trying to be something he's not. He's not pandering shamelessly to Democratic activists. Perhaps that's not the smartest move politically, but at least he's being honest about who he is and what he believes in. Dean, on the other hand, has sought to rhetorically distance himself from the Clinton/Gore administration from the start, by repeatedly declaring that he represents the "Democratic" wing (i.e., NOT the DLC/Clinton wing) of the Democratic Party. This is of course ironic, and somewhat dishonest, because for most of his political career, he fit quite comfortably in the DLC mold. But I guess he decided he couldn't sell that to the primary voters, and so he became someone else. Honestly, there are a lot of liberals in Vermont laughing their asses off over all this talk about Dean being a left-winger.

[jos]

54. Pandering?

What you call "pandering," most Democrats would call standing up for Democratic principles.

Come to think of it, Tsongas called Clinton the "pander bear" in the '92 primary. Are you sure, Dolstein, you didn't work for Tsongas that year?

[jos]

46. Untrue

Clinton's '92 campaign straddled both "new" Democrat and populism. Remember his call for raising taxes on the wealthy? Paul Tsongas was more the Lieberman in the race.

And Gore stopped Bradley's momentum in '00 by portraying his plan as a threat to Medicaid.

[dolstein]

51. Bullshit

I volunteered for Clinton in '92 and followed his campaign from beginning to end. He talked about middle class tax cuts and ending the era of big government. He supported free trade, and pointied out his support for the Gulf War. He ran 100% as a New Democrat precisely because he was the quintessential New Democrat, having been a founder and chairment of the Democratic Leadership Council. Sorry, but your efforts to cast Clinton as a populist smack of desperation and self-delusion.

[jos]

53. You better check your history

You must have been working for Tsongas. In fact, he attacked Tsongas in the primaries for wanting to tamper with entitlement programs. He argued that NAFTA should be changed and called for raising taxes on the wealthy which, to his credit, he did. The middle class tax cut was populist as well, but he abandoned it when he turned economic policy over to Alan Greenspan, Bob Rubin and Leon Panetta. And the end of big government statement came in his '97 inagural.

[unfrigginreal]

44. I probably would have agreed with you pre-2000.

But after the stolen election...and if you don't agree with that sentiment, then I understand your confusion...it's hard for any of us to warm up to Democrats that embraced Bush.

Lieberman, if he wants a chance at all, should take a cue from Gephardts performance last night. He went a long way toward redeeming himself in our eyes, by labeling Bush as a miserable failure.

That's not just red meat for partisans, that's how most of us feel at a fundamental level...excluding our politics.

[MaverickX]

47. I would..

Lieberman won't ever support Bush for President. He is a partisan Democrat. I honestly hate Dean as much as I hate Bush but would definitely vote for Dean over Bush.

[w4rma]

55. Why?

I find it infathomable why you would "hate" Dean as much as you "hate" Bush. Have you lost your mind?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. This is a totally stupid and useless thread

[molly]

50. Neither one will ever happen

so quit worrying! IF - IF - it would be the same as hell freezing over IMHO.

[goforit]

56. I wouldn't be surprised.......He pays his alliegence to Israel long before

the U. S.

Bush pats Sharon on the back and Sharon uses Bush to the max!!!

And Lieberman, will choose Israel before the US.

[bluestateguy]

57. no that won't happen

He'd endorse Dean, but find an excuse not to campaign for him. Then if he lost, he's be the first to say on all the chat shows that Democratic Party needs to become a conservative party.

[CBHagman]

58. He wouldn't do any such thing.

Seriously, let's not go into full fantasizing mode here. There is no reason to believe he'll do anything other than support the Democratic nominee.