Yates got off of the Death Penalty...for killing those kids !

[vetwife]

I know I am going to make you folks mad but she had sense enough to call her husband and tell him what she did. She called 911.
those little boys did not get off of the Death Penatly.

I am not happy with this decision. Not at all !
I was not happy for her husband taking up for her either.

[Sannum]

1. She was/is severly mentally ill without proper treatment

Had she gotten that treatment, this would not have happened.

[bowens43]

4. Did you see that in your crystal ball?

[Sannum]

14. Oh, don't even start....

She was suffering from post-partum psychosis and was convinced that god was telling her to kill her children. Many doctors said that she was the most mentally ill person they had ever seen. I have been around mental illness, and there are no winners in this tragic situation.

[jdj]

172. and her doctor told her it WOULD come back if she got

pregnant again.

And her piece of shit husband left her alone with them although she was showing serious signs of sickness again.

HE needs to get the death penalty.

For her really, death would be kinder, since she is on meds now, and knows what she has done. A lifetime of the hell of knowing this is worse, much worse than death.

[liberalnurse]

15. It's all about choices.

She chose not to get help...she chose to murder innocent babies for her own selfishness.

[Liberal Veteran]

17. How sad that as a nurse, you have so little compassion...

....or understanding of the skewed thought processes of a mentally ill person. That's just....sad.

[liberalnurse]

39. My opinion of murder has nothing to do with being a nurse.

I don't take my private opinions into my work. You really should give me my private opinion. As a correctional nurse, murderers are a small part of the population. I treat them without prejudice. Most inmates, I don't have a clue as to their crime....I don't have time to look it up nor would it alter my treatment.

Now, on this board, I have a private opinion and will speak it as I desire.
I have insight as to the behavior of the mentally ill verses acute psychosis. Yates was not in acute psychosis. Sorry to bust up your pitty party.

[Susang]

51. How do you know?

Did you treat her?

[liberalnurse]

152. Did you treat her?

Did you participate in the investigation? Are you a psychiatrist or forensic psychologist?

...She did not meet the standard. She was just a mentally ill. She was not found quilty by reason of insanity.

Tell me about you, if you feel so compelled to judge my profession.

[Liberal Veteran]

188. Could you admit that possibly the STANDARD might be wrong?

We all know that what is "legal" vs. what is "right" might not be the same thing.

You are trying to argue this from a legal perspective in a state where the bar is set very high. Indeed, "insane" in this case is more of a legal fiction than a true assessment of the extent of mental illness.

Is also a bit arbitrary.

[liberalnurse]

199. I am firm with the standard of NGRI.

I still feel she had other choices......she planned the murders and carried them out. I can't let the veil of mental illness be the excuse to execute children.


I sense I will just be redundant here so read my other replies. She is ill but not that ill.

[frankly_fedup2]

320. Liberalnurse I just do not understand why you cannot see that . . .

this woman was sick. The very act of methodically killing her children, then chasing the oldest boy and drowning him.

Like I said before, what about Abraham in the Bible. God stopped him; however, God's voice told him to kill his only son.

If he lived in these times, he'd be considered mentally ill.

What she did is unforgivable, she knows that I'm sure, and we all know that, but that woman was not in her right mind.

I have had a psychotic episode due to post-partum depression. Trust me, you know reality, but then there is that other thing you see or hear or taste or smell. You know it's not there, but it still makes your mind race out of control.

I guess I can see her Hell cause I've been to the part of the post-partum psychosis and the Hell of that. I knew I would hurt my son if I was ever left alone with him so I made sure I wasn't.

As far as Andrea Yates seeking help, she did. The doctors told her and her husband not to have anymore children because she had severe post-partum depression with her last little boy. But, they went ahead and had the little girl Mary. The docs were so concerned they wanted to admit her, but Rusty had his mother come up and stay to help out. He knew better than the doctor. Andrea quit taking her meds (which most psychotic people do because you do not trust what the medicine can do to you), and convinced her mother in law that she was okay and the woman left.

There are a lot of people to blame here. Andrea Yates committed the absolutely horrible act; however, those children would be alive today if only her husband and family would have allowed the doctors to admit her in the hospital to get the treatment she needed. The doctors could have overruled her husband if they felt she or anyone else was in danger. I'm sure they all blame themselves anyway, and they rightly should.

[Bouncy Ball]

323. liberalnurse

could you murder all of your children WITHOUT being severely mentally ill?

I couldn't. What about you?

Sheesh.

And by the way, this case is being re-tried because an expert witness for the prosecution totally screwed up.

You suggest we throw all judicial procedure out the window because YOU don't think she's mentally ill ENOUGH?

[frankly_fedup2]

332. Screwed up is an understatement. The psychiatrist for the . . .

prosecution out-and-out lied on the stand. He claimed there was an episode of Law and Order that showed a mother murdering her children in this way and Yates just copied the murder. Well guess what, there was never any show like that.

Now why would that Psychiatrist lie like that? Could it be the "PROSECUTOR" told him too? I would bet he did. Prosecutors tend to lie, make up stories, say things that were not said, they are pretty much the scum of the scum of the Earth.

[Bouncy Ball]

352. Exactly

and it's because of this "drown the bitch" mentality we seem to have in this country.

It's just sad.

[TXlib]

434. Prosecutorial misconduct

I honestly don't know how prevalent it is. But I think saying "Prosecutors tend to lie, make up stories, say things that were not said, they are pretty much the scum of the scum of the Earth" is going a bit too far.

True, I believe prosecutors found guilty of such misconduct are abusing the trust placed in them by the people. And I also believe they should be disbarred and face prison time, not to mention civil liabilities.

But you paint with too broad a brush.

[frankly_fedup2]

321. Amen on that. The legal system in this country is a farce. What . . .

you see on TV is just that . . . TV. And they lie too.

[Liberal Veteran]

56. I applaud your ability to partition yourself mentally.

Unless you can tell me you were either present at the time of the killings or have intimate knowledge of her case due to working with her I don't know how you could you could possibly tell me that this woman was not EXTREMELY mentally ill.

A woman with a documented history of mental illness who drowns each of her children and then calls the police to tell them what she did is hardly the actions of person who is in their right mind.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't flaunt your line of work as giving you insight the rest of us lack and then claim in the next breath that no one has a right to comment on what I see as an appalling lack of insight into the mental condition of this woman.

Yeah, I pity the woman. She was deranged and the system failed time and time in her case. Her husband failed her as well in his responsibility to care for her or his children as well and at the very least is culpable.

Their own doctor took the stand and swore under oath that he warned them that her having more children would make matters worse.

This case had more red flags than the average case and time and again NO ONE took action to prevent a tragedy that in retrospect was screaming to be prevented.

I won't be called on the carpet for having the compassion to see the difference between selfish cold-blooded murder and mental illness. I watched my aunt struggle with constant mental illness throughout her life. She was probably one of the sweetest women I know, but even when under treatment she rarely seemed to be in control of herself given to moving from being a sweet woman washing laughing and having a good time, to two minutes later locking herself in my grandmother's room screaming and wailing.

Yeah, I have compassion and I am not ashamed of it. I saw no selfish motive or malice presented in this case to change my opinion.

[liberalnurse]

169. She was ill but knew the difference

and the actions were pre-meditated to the very end. She wanted to end her misery of life...She was selfish and murdered her children with forethought and malice verses seek self removal into a safe environment.

She chose poorly, but willingly to solve her problem just like Susan Smith, consciously and with intent. She planned it and felt better afterwards. She knew they were her children and wanted free of them and her bound, dutiful marriage responsibilities they brought. She was indeed ill as most any murderer is, some more than others at the time of the crime......She was not totally psychotic. There is a great difference.

Yes, there were red flags, I agree but she was aware of other choices....murder of the innocent children who trusted and love their mommy have suffered a horrible fate. Yes, it was a highly dysfunctional life but murder is not the only choice. She knew exactly what she did. One must separate the two issues.

So, if someone is high on heroin and murders once child do you find the pathetic disease of dependency a good reason to forgive the crime of murder? They were not in control of all faculties and were sick....No difference.....

On the other hand, lets say an individual with known schizophrenia stabs one child 135 times believing that the child was a demon and feared for ones life, and continued to attack the demon......That is psychotic....and meets the bar of insanity.

[Liberal Veteran]

176. You are trying to apply your rational thought process..

....to this woman's admittedly irrational thought and skewed thought process.

No wonder you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.

You are not trying to understand the thought processes that led to her actions. Of course they don't make any sense to those of us who are not cursed with voices telling us to do things and warped thought processes.

That's what mental illness is.

Let me see if I can explain it to you in terms you should already understand:

When you think 1+1=2 it makes perfect sense to you. When you think 1+1=341 it comes across as nonsense to you. The connections you make are right and make sense to you.

In the mind of the mentally ill that doesn't necessarily follow. Hell. Both things could make sense or nonsense. The mental processes don't follow the same "path" that yours do.

That of course is a simplistic example of what skewed thinking really is and not even remotely indicative of how deep it really goes.

Apply what YOU would have done or what would have been rational is exactly where you missing the point of mental illness.

ANd the heroin user is a strawman argument.

Unlike the heroin addict in your example who chooses to take a drug and the person who CHOOSES to drive drunk, she didn't CHOOSE to be mentally ill.

I still think you are suffering from a compassion deficit in this if you believe that this woman was truly in a mentally competant state of mind when she did this deed.

[liberalnurse]

181. Yates also made the choice...

like the heroin addict. Yes, its all sad and miserable the entire scenario ....but she knew the difference. I believe she was indeed impaired but not mentally incapacitated.

The bar must be verey high for NGRI.....if not, you would be so shocked at how many, many murderers would be out on the street. I've met a lot of them who tried to claim insanity at the time of the crime......few meet the bar. Yates is one who does not.


Here.....read this.....

The "McNaughton rule" was a standard to be applied by the jury, after hearing medical testimony from prosecution and defense experts. The rule created a presumption of sanity, unless the defense proved "at the time of committing the act, the accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing or, if he did know it, that he did not know what he was doing was wrong."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/insane/insanity.html

[frankly_fedup2]

330. Liberalnurse, I think I understand why you look at it the way that

you do . . . you work within the legal system with the prisoners. I have seen the way people who work at jails treat the prisoners as well as their families who have done absolutely nothing. No respect whatsoever.

My son got into trouble and we had to go bail him out. He had never been in any trouble before in his life and we never had to deal with the police before. I never want to deal with any of these people again. They and you may be around some of the worst people that exist on this Earth everyday. One thing about that though, you choose to work there.

Now I may be totally off base as far as you are concerned; however, those other deputies and magistrates and whatever they call themselves need to get some counseling themselves.

No wonder cops are one of the highest suicide groups that there is. They may start out wanting to make a difference, but instead, they turn into something not much better than what they arrest. They sure have no compassion for anyone. They all get power hungry because they have some authority. That little bit of power goes to their head as well. They are the most arrogant bunch of people I have ever been around in my life. This one deputy talked to my father, a 76-year-old Veteran of WWII like a dog. I turned and looked at him and told him my father, who served this country so he could be what he wanted to be deserved more respect than that. Then he went into this BS about he never meant it in the way he said it. WHATever.

Oh yeah, lawyers are just as bad. Even the ones you pay.

Liberalnurse, you need to get away from that place before it eats you whole because it sounds like it almost has. Good Luck.

[liberalnurse]

351. I'm sorry for your experience.....

I do not behave in that fashion. I just don't. People/families are not initially hostile to the nurses...they need and desire our help and we do what we can.......

Yes, I choose to work there.......My compasion, insight and medical experience is valued by officers, inmates and the families. I've had many families thank me in letters and cards.

Not everyone is cut out for corrections....I agree....but I am.

[ohio_liberal]

418. I work....

for the Ohio DRC APA, before that in a correctional facility, and before that with a county sheriffs department. The people you find working in the corrections/law enforcement are the same as any other occupation. Some are complete assholes, some are very decent people. I'm sorry you had to deal with the assholes.

[frankly_fedup2]

421. Me too Ohio_liberal. I have two cousins who are deputies in . ..

the Sheriff's Department in the county I live. One is a great guy and I cannot imagine him acting like what we experienced.

The other one is a cocky, arrogant, little shit. Of course, he was that way before he was a deputy as well.

I guess it was more the feeling that I was being ignored because I would stand there and when whomever was sitting at the desk finally looked up, they looked pissed. Then they would send me to another department that I got the same treatment. It got to me; however, when they talked to my 76-year-old father that way, I lost my temper with them.

Also, everyone of them talked down to us...all of us. Like we were white trash or something. They didn't know anything about us but that is how they made me feel. My son made a BIG mistake; however, it was illegal, and it was the first time he had ever gotten into trouble, as well as our dealings with the Justice System and through this experience, I have learned one very good lesson. "Justice is NOT blind, she has her hand out." I'd say up to now we have put out a good $8000 for attorney fees, fines, court costs, restitutions, counseling that he doesn't need (however, he cannot file these so-called therapists on insurance so we are in the process of trying to find a private therapist, which would be much, much cheaper).

I don't know what people do if they don't have the money to cover these costs. I suppose they are the ones sitting in jail. Believe me though, it has hurt us financially at times; however, what are parents suppose to do. No matter how old they are, they are still your child, and when they ask for help, you do what you can. It's just been one big mess that was blown so out of proportion it's unbelievable.

[RaleighNCDUer]

430. that is an incredibly high bar you are setting.

Her extreme religion blended with her psychosis to tell her that she could save her children from a life of misery and sin by killing them. For me, that's a high enough bar to qualify as insane.

And yes, the child murderer who was high on heroin could get the charge reduced to 2nd degree murder due to diminished capacity.

[liberalnurse]

206. The next time you go into a grocery store or mall.....

Look into the eyes of the small children who are with their mother, yes, they are strangers and they need to be.

Next, think about their mother drowning each of them, predictably and successfully.....over a period of several hours. Then think about her, the mother calling her husband and the police to announce her deed. Will you say, oh your mommy is just sick....it's okay...

That is not psychosis but sick, demented murder.

I ask you, would you then embrace the mother you are looking at with the children at the mall?

[Liberal Veteran]

210. That's a very sad and telling post you just made.

And pretty much solidifies my impression that you have absolutely no compassion for the mentally ill or even a basic understanding.

I hurt for her and the children. I see the children as innocent victims of a woman in desperate need of mental help.

You just see it as the act of some selfish woman not worthy of our pity or compassion.

You just don't seem to understand mental illness and as a fellow health care worker, I think perhaps you have chosen the wrong line of work. Nurses without the ability to comprehend mental illness is a frightening thought.

I hope I never have the misfortune to be under your care.

[liberalnurse]

215. I work in corrections with

murderers and the mentally ill.

[Liberal Veteran]

220. Your experiences with some murderers and some mentally ill...

...does not justify the appalling lack of compassion and understanding of what the mentally ill go through that I see expressed in your posts.

Just from the way I am gathering things, you see the mentally ill as evil rather than sick.

Sometimes that is a correct assumption, but I think in this case you are way, way off base in this.

And what will you do if the new jury finds that Yates is not guilty by reason of insanity?

Will you decide you were wrong and unlock your compassion?

[liberalnurse]

225. You are way, way off the mark......

You don't have a clue into the depths of my compassion. If Yates was psychotic, I'd be in her court; she was not....

PM me with your healthcare background. I will reciprocate.

[Liberal Veteran]

238. I am not going to play comparative healthcare background.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion. You believe that Andrea Yates was evil rather than ill and acted out of selfishness rather than out of a warped sense of reality. You've said that in so many words time and again.

That's frightening to me when it is obvious to even the most casual observer that Andrea Yates was a very very mentally sick woman, not an evil one.

Not one person here has said she should be totally off the hook or given a free pass for her actions. But she needs our help and pity, not our condemnation. And the latter is precisely what you appear to be offering.

We don't need to take this into the realm of the personal, but from my viewpoint, a woman with a documented history of mental illness and institutionalization who kills each of her kids to "save them from Satan" because she was such a bad mother and then calls the police to report what she did is pretty much an open and shut case of severely mentally ill.

She was clearly delusional. The fact that she knew murder was wrong may make her "legally sane", but her delusional behavior led her to believe she had to do a wrong to serve a greater good (ie, killing them will keep her from making ruining the kid's chance for eternal happiness in heaven).

Yeah, it seems odd and bizarre to us as rational people. She wasn't rational. She was truly deluded and irrational, not mentally fit to be making the choices she did.

The only person I think that truly deserves our condemnation in this is the father who was CLEARLY negligent beyond anything I could imagine.

[Bouncy Ball]

325. HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE WAS NOT?

Are you a psychiatrist?

Have you examined her at length?

Then you don't know of what you speak!

I echo liberal veteran, I feel sorry for those under your care.

[RaleighNCDUer]

431. I gently suggest that you have worked there too long.

Burn out is a problem in high stress fields, and you are working in a combination of two of them.

Perhaps you need to back away and get some perspective.

[Bouncy Ball]

324. My GOD

if a crazy woman doesn't kill that way, then who does?

You cannot POSSIBLY know what was in her mind or how sick her mind was.

[Maiden England]

99. If you are indeed a nurse, I sure as heck wouldn't have you on my staff

That is the most ill-informed and un-educated opinion I've heard yet on mental illness. Your post I'm afraid makes it painfully obvious to anyone with serious experience working with the mentally ill, that you have very little idea what you are talking about, nor the facts of the case.
The fact that you use your user name and your claim of profession to add weight to your opinion, is quite frankly irresponsible.

[liberalnurse]

171. The mentally ill are held responsible for their behavior.

Insanity is the only legal forgiveness.

[Bouncy Ball]

326. Hang on.

The insane ARE mentally ill, so which group are you talking about here?

Wow. Your lack of knowledge on this is disturbing, to say the least.

[liberalnurse]

229. I do have the credentials to back it up......

Do you?

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

284. Whats the matter.....

Cat got you tongue? I'm here for your pleasurable discussion... If you know how, that is the question isn't it?

[Maiden England]

317. OK, if you want to bait me....

Since you said you had insight into mental illness, please explain the difference, for those outside the medical profession (aka for the 'laymen' reading this thread) between post partum depression and post partum psychosis, and please explain why someone with PPD will never have a psychotic episode.

I'd also appreciate it if you could back up your claims with some referenceable material, as all good scientists know, reproduceability and peer review is a key aspect of our field.

Also, this insight you have into mental illness is this from personal experience or through your professional experiences as a nurse?

[liberalnurse]

362. What is this all about?

Didn't you get the PM? I'm sure you did and I accepted your apology with good blessings to you.....What gives?

This post was before your post got deleted......and before the PM.....

[Maiden England]

390. I eventually got the PM and its all good

However I think I asked a fair question. You give the impression that you believe that Yates was a murderer with intent, based on the fact she was described as having suffered from post partum depression rather than post partum psychosis, and that her illness was not a driving factor behind her motives to kill her children.

If you are basing your insight on your professional experience, then you have a career in a most apt field and you may well bring light to your side of the argument that not only makes sense but educates others as to why. You ignore someone with extensive experience at your peril. However, you don't back up any of your opinions with examples or facts, or really explain why it is you believe she was not psychotic at the time of the murders.

I just want to cite two articles that I think are quite apt

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/37/8/1-a

and

http://www.psych.org/public_info/postpartumdepression111401.pdf

[liberalnurse]

426. I think we can learn a lot from each other

in light of our current opportunities. I know I could gain from conversing with you. I entered this thread while I was making dinner...I was not researching the topic for debate as it really didn't dawn on me that it was a social "hot potato" as it apparently has shown to be......I was just in casual discussion; so I thought when I began......

Now that being said, I have gained interest into deeper reseach on the subject and may soon engage in the task...It just may come in handy.

[stanwyck]

103. then why was she taking

heavy doses of drugs? I don't believe you know her history. She had been hospitalized numerous times. She is a severely ill woman. Your inability to understand that mental illness is an illness means you are not sufficiently educated.

[liberalnurse]

173. She did not meet the standard of insanity.

She knew what she was doing. She was just a miserable soul who chose not to leave the enviroment of dysfunction. She felt relief afer the crime........Psychotic individuals do not know what they feel....they typically don't understand what they have done. Yates was very clear with her plan, intent and outcome.

[jdj]

177. Maybe the standard sucks.

Did you think about that one?

It sounds like you don't believe in post-partum depression.
Happens to alot of women.

But an otherwise normally functioning non-abusive parent who falls into post-partum depression and proceeds to murder her kids, to me, is insane, regardless of whatever the embarassment known as Texas decrees in it's legal definition.

[liberalnurse]

194. Yes I have.....

I recall as a teenager when it was a "private matter" when husbands beat the shit out of their wives. As a result, in the mid 80's safe houses evolved and domestic violence offenders are arrested; not released from jail until they appear in court!

Yates had choices today. Murder of all her children was not the acceptable one. She was efficient in the murders, had forethought and intent. Yea, thats sick alright.

[jdj]

202. you seem to want to portray her as a serial killer.

a sociopath, rather than someone who murdered out of an episode of mental illness brought on by pregnancy, that she and her husband were warned would happen if she had more kids.

Don't you understand,you win. She is on meds now and has full comprehension of what she has done. The rest of her life will be hell. If I had the views that you hold I would be jumping for joy at this announcement. She is possibly not going to die anytime soon. She will have to live even longer with the burden of knowing that she killed her own children in a psychotic episode. Lucky her.

[liberalnurse]

207. I'm glad she has to think about the children she murdered.

She knew it was wrong when she did it. She was ill, which made it a bit easier to commit but she knew it was wrong and that they would die. She did it deliberatly....Not in a fuge of confusion.

[jdj]

369. she was following "God's direction" which in her mind

trumps human law.

You apparently don't believe in ppd, and you apparently haven't been exposed to fundie insanity. Start with the Iraq war for a primer on that. Combine severe recurring ppd with fundie insanity and you get women who drown their kids or cut off their arms.

You may get the taste of revenge on your tongue, but don't you feel bad about contributing to the future deaths of children by helping to obfuscate and deny the reality of post-partum depression?

[frankly_fedup2]

382. you still are missing the point, she knew that killing her children

was against the law, was a horrible thing for her to do, and that she would be punished for breaking the law. However, she believed in her mind, and due to voices that kept telling her it was the only way to save them from Hell. In her psychotic reality, she was doing the right thing for her children, and she was willing to take the punishment in order to save her children from Hell. In her illogical thinking, she was martyring herself for her children.

As far as suffering, this woman has been suffering for a long time. She was suffering before she killed her own children, she suffered killing her children, and she will continue to suffer the rest of her life. She must see their faces everyday looking up at her while she was drowning them. I cannot even imagine her day-to-day existence living with what she did. I truly believe she will eventually commit suicide because she will not be able to live her self and what she did, now that she realizes she killed those children because of her illness and no other reason.

If you want her to suffer more, than you have gotten your wish. Living everyday with the knowledge of what she did has to be 10 times worse then any kind of death sentence.

[LostinVA]

274. She Had No Real Choice

And an understanding of the facts of the case show that. Your use of the domestic abuse shelter is an apt one, because Andrea Yates was abused by her husband... indeed, by her whole family. If you need to ask why, then you don't know the facts of her life. The woman was abused and controlled by her husband, parents, inlaws, pastor, and an archaic religious system (I am NOT condemning religion here, people -- just this case).

[Liberal Veteran]

178. Expecting a mentally ill person to do what you consider rational...

...is akin to expecting fish to fly and birds to swim.

[Solon]

189. Actually some birds do swim...

*cough* penguins *cough* :)

[Liberal Veteran]

192. Yes, and some fish "fly", but...you get the point.

:D

[Solon]

193. Doh!!! Forgot that too. n/t

[liberalnurse]

203. Murder is beyond rational expectations..

The mentally ill have weak boundaries and society recognizes this.....Murder is not an option. She committed and executed the murder of her children....She knew the difference. Her illness did not blur her choices. It was the choice of a person who was also suffering from mental illness, it was not primary but secondary.

[Solon]

205. I didn't know you were a God...

or in the courtroom, what were you a member of the jury?

[liberalnurse]

209. I do not expect the psychotic to be rational.

Mental illness is not a free pass to commit crimes and definately not murder. Psychosis was not an issue here. She is responsible for her actions.

[Solon]

213. What are you smoking?

No, seriously, because as far as I can tell, NO ONE advocating giving anyone a free pass. She suffers from mental illness, to a degree we do not know, she SHOULD be retried, do you agree? If not, then why advocate for perjury?

[Liberal Veteran]

214. I don't think anyone is offering her a free pass...

...most people are just compassionate enough and RATIONAL enough to understand that this was the action of a woman who was not in her right mind and giving her the benefit of compassion that knows that had this woman been in her right mind, she would not have killed her children. I think you truly see her as an evil individual instead of a sick individual.

I am appalled at how you view this case, even though you are entitled to your opinion.

[RUDUing2]

282. psychosis is THE issue here..psychosis does not negate what the person

did but it most certainly does mean that the person suffering from psychosis is not responsible for their actions.

[Lizzie Borden]

292. Bingo! She was mentally ill.

How is it that all of Europe understand this and treats post-partum depression as the illness that it is. A case can be made that if our society were more open about it, it wouldn't happen so muuch. Others could see it happening and take steps to help the woman involved instead of leaving her to cope alone.

[laundry_queen]

187. bullshit

Anybody who's ever experienced severe post partum depression or psychosis knows she did NOT 'know what she was doing'. You, as a nurse, should know that and that you don't seem to speaks volumes about your competence.

[liberalnurse]

212. I'm a nurse and I did not read anything that

defined her as being completely psychotic. She is just like Susan Smith. Yes, she has PPD but it did not incapacitate her to the point wherein murder was her only option. She planned it, she did it and knew what she was doing. Most all murders are done knowing the difference.....and she knew.......

PPD can be devestating but she knew what she was doing. She's toast.

She has remorse today.....too bad.....can't bring back the children now can we.

[laundry_queen]

226. Again I call bullshit.

How do you know that it didn't "incapacitate her to the point wherein murder was her only option"? Have you ever had PPD?? How do you know how devastating it can me if you haven't had it? How can you even say she knew what she was doing? Trust me, BTDT and the warped sense of 'reality' you are caught in is beyond comprehension unless you've been there. I say there is no WAY she knew what she is doing and I truly believe this case is indicative of how far we have to go with regards to women's rights.
BTW, it's a fine line between PPD and PPP - *I* was never 'formally' diagnosed as either at the time, but I had it. Not many women with PPD/PPP have as many red flags and warning signs DOCUMENTED as Andrea Yates did, and I'd say that because of this she WAS on the severe end of the spectrum. What do YOU consider as completely psychotic? Hearing voices? Past psychotic episodes? How much deeper into psychosis must you be to fit YOUR definition of "completely psychotic" ??

[LostinVA]

276. She is not like Susan Smith!

Susan Smith MURDERED her children and then blamed it on an African American man. Andrea Yates killed her children because of a REAL, medically diagnosed illness. She is NOT a sociopath. Susan Smith is.

I'm tired of this. I'm going to go watch trashy reality TV.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

302. Furthermore, Susan Smith murdered her children because she

thought her boyfriend wouldn't want to take them on.

It's an evil motive, but she carefully planned the murders and the cover story.

Andrea Yates was delusional. Susan Smith was not.

[Bouncy Ball]

327. Um, I am living here in Texas

and I read PLENTY about her post partum PSYCHOSIS.

Where have you been? And yet you claim to know so much about her.

:eyes:

[Princess Turandot]

378. Didn't some of the prosecution's psychiatrists agree that

she was insane? I seem to recall reading something about that, although I might be confusing it with another case.

[frankly_fedup2]

437. And there you have it. That's pretty much what I've been trying . . .

to say for two days now, but I tend to go on and on forever.

[kurtyboy]

195. Actually, that question (meeting the standard) has yet to be

determined. The false testimony of Dietz (which is the reason for the the sentnece being overturned) probably clouded jurors minds as to whether the act was premeditated, AND as to whether Yates met the standard for insaninty--or so a Texas Appeals court has ruled.

You can second-guess the court all you want (and I'm willing to bet that in Texas, they usually don't turn over such sentences...), but THEY have the facts, not you.

THe woman deserves another trial as a result of the4 malfeasance of the prosecution's witness. Only THEN will a jury FAIRLY decide whther or not she meets the standard for insanity. This is a legal question, not subject to the opinions of posters on DU--but you're certainly entitled to express yours.

[liberalnurse]

233. That remains to be seen.

Dietz testimony was enought to get a new trial but I doubt it will alter the insanity finding in the end. If indeed in the second trial the jury finds her insane....so be it. I'll disagree but go with the finding based upon the evidence.

[LostinVA]

272. She did not meet TEXAS' Standard

Almost any other state or country would have treated her like Hinckley and institutionalized.

Btw, I am not a nurse, but my mother has been a psychiatric and pediatric nurse for 40 years, and she told me psychotics often DO understand what they have done, but that their altered reality makes that understanding moot. She sees Andrea Yates as both mentally ill and a victim who should be treated like Hinckley.

I know my mother, who is the epitome of a REAL Christian,a nd who has compassion for the people she treats. She is also a well-respected, top notch nurse.

Geez, use some empathy: imagine you had a psychotic episode and did this to your kids, then, with medicine-induce lucidity, you KNOW what you did. Then, imagine living with that. Yates is in the prison of her own mind.

Yates has also expressed sincere remorse, and a wide range of mental professionals who HAVE EXAMINED, unlike any of us on this board, have declared her one of the most mentally ill people that have ever examined. This is not only doctors hired by the defense.

Today, I feel like I've been reading FR.

If you really have no understanding and compassion for those you treat, perhaps it's best if you change your place of employment. That's why I decided to give up teaching... I started to hate kids.

[Shakespeare]

275. EXCELLENT point: lucidity does NOT equal an understanding of right/wrong

And I cannot believe that a few people--especially anybody in the medical field--claim not to get that distinction.

Psychotics (and those in TEMPORARY psychotic episodes) can be very, very lucid. That lucidity does not mean they're aware of the moral implications of their actions, however.

[RUDUing2]

286. do some reading..she definately met the standards of insanity (M

even by Texas law..which is the most ridiculously stringint and unfair standards in the US if not the civilized world..but then I have my doubts about Texas being part of the civilized world..

The reason she was prosecuted as *sane* was because she lived in Harris Co. Texas and had a religious nut for a prosecuting attorney...

If you believe that she was not psychotic and should be held accountable for her actions as sane..then to be blunt IMO you have no business attending or having contact w/the mentally ill.

[frankly_fedup2]

344. "Psychotic individuals do not know what they have done" . . .

Hmmmm, Well, when I had my psychosis no one around me knew anything was wrong. You are thinking of Schizophrenics who when they have a psychotic episode cannot make complete sentences, have a major issue with God and all things being of God. I saw things that were not there, I smelt things that were not there, I heard things that were not there, and I knew they weren't there; however, my levels of depression and anxiety were so high, I could not deal with reality. I knew something was wrong (just like yates because she had been to doctors), I knew it would be wrong to hurt my son; however, at times I thought he was the child of Satan. I never told anyone I thought that. I never told anyone the voices verified that for me. I never told anyone that I would smell something burning all the time. However, I was psychotic and still lived in reality and also knew the difference between the two. Hard to understand, I know, but that is the way it is. I worked in the medical field myself before I became disabled; however, I don't feel I have a medical background to back up my debate. I lived it and it was a friggin nightmare from Hell. Just saying it over and over here debating this is creeping me out. This is the last time I'm going to discuss it. No one is obviously going to change your mind, nor will you show any compassion for this woman. I feel your job has given you your lack of compassion because like I said before, I've had to deal with people who work with prisoners and jails.

[RUDUing2]

399. sorry...my comp is being wonky this morning.

[frankly_fedup2]

419. Where else was I suppose to post it? (nm)

[RUDUing2]

420. it showed up on my comp as a reply to my post directly above yours..

like I edited to say..my comp was being wonky this morning..

[frankly_fedup2]

423. Oh, sorry. It must have been when I was online last night around

2 or 3 a.m. I finally had to go to bed. I think I fell asleep typing.

I've done it before though. I need to be more careful.

Thanks again.

[frankly_fedup2]

315. Now I know as a nurse that during your internship you also had . . .

to do some time at psychiatric hospitals . . . right? Not much but some.

So I'm having a pity party too. I look at it like this. Yes, you have a right to your private opinion just as everyone else on this board. However, no one is promised tomorrow. Also, no one is guaranteed good health either.

I just hope that you have the good mental health now and always. I have had physical pain as well as mental pain . . . mental pain is 10 times as hard to get through.

As far as Andrea Yates, she will probably commit suicide. She won't be able to live with what she did. She is living in Hell everyday, she might as well go to Hell, right????

[liberalnurse]

341. She made her bed.....

Now she is to lay in it as they say.....Maybe the second trial will be different too. I will support the jury finding if they deem her NGRI. As it is, she was not found to be psychotic and/or legally insane. I do find that she was in a miserable, dysfunctional relationship and she needed to leave.....She did not but found murder a solution.....She planned it and carried it out. I agree she was mentally ill but not to the point wherein she sis not know it was wrong to murder innocent children.

This opinion does not reflect on my level of compassion as a nurse. I would treat her with compassion and implement any physician directed plan of care if I was her nurse. Her criminal conviction or any alleged crime does not play into any part of the healthcare needs beyond my safety and the safety of others in the course of care delivery.

By the way, I have a strong psychatric nurse background since you asked or assume I don't.

[Liberal Veteran]

357. Hmmm....so juries are never wrong and the justice system is perfect?

That's a VERY bad assumption.

Just ask the 107 people who were let off death row after being exonerated by DNA evidence.

Assuming that because the prosecutor said this and the judge said that and the jury came to this conclusion therefore it must be right is the very first sign you have been corrupted by being a part of that system.

That's a not an accusation, it's an observation.

I haven't seen a single post from you that refers to anything OTHER than what the trial determined. Not an opinion as human being on the documented history of mental illness, just lots of talk about NGRI as though it were the end all, be all.

And if the jury finds her NGRI this time around what then? Your opinion is based on THEM, rather than your own investigation and suddenly she really was "insane" despite your objections and characterizations of her as being a selfish woman desperate to get out of a bad relationship/situation throughout this thread?

I don't share your blind faith in our judicial system. Indeed, I used to be pro-death penalty until I realized how many people were being exonerated based on DNA evidence. It rocked my faith in the system to its core.

I'm sorry, but if your opinion hangs solely on the argument "well, the jury said...." then you don't really have enough information on this case to make a reasoned defense of your position.

[RUDUing2]

411. she CHOSE to suffer from PPP and schizophrenia..

she CHOSE to be improperly treated by the health care system?

She CHOSE to have hallucinations and hear voices?

Wow didn't know that those things were choices...

[frankly_fedup2]

424. I wasn't assuming liberalnurse. I knew you had to have at least ...

some training during your internship. Also, working where you stated you work, it is understandble that you would have a strong psychiatric nursing background (or understanding or specialization in your studies) or you wouldn't have gotten the job working in a jail with inmates.

What is your opinion on executing the mentally retarded for murder in the first degree? No matter how low the IQ, they know right from wrong. I believe that is how the law interprets an insanity plea, isn't it?? I'm not sure but I think so. That is why it is so hard to get an insanity plea for anyone.

By the way, wasn't there a lady a couple weeks or a month or two ago who cut off her baby's arms in Texas? Didn't the baby die? Also, weren't they blaming it on post-partum psychosis. I haven't heard anymore, have you?????

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

66. Nurse Ratched?

*

[Jesus H. Christ]

Where's the Bull Goose Looney when you need him?

A surprise finale would be in order right now.

[Susang]

89. LOL

<applause>

[liberalnurse]

222. So, who is going to protect the children of tomorrow?

I apparently am the only one on this thread. PPD in this case did not place Yates in a psychotic state. In some cases this is true, not this one......

Thats the facts...she committed the murders....the children are not here today because she wanted out of her dysfunction.....It it too hard for folks here to see the children are the victims not Yates.

I am a very compassionate and professional nurse. I dare to look at the ugliness there is to see and I do see it daily. My experiences have been my education as well as what I am gaining in school, working on my Masters in Forensics.

[Susang]

256. Again, I ask "How do you know?"

Many doctors, MD Phds, mind you, felt that it was PPD induced psychosis and testified in the case. Her own doctor felt she was at serious risk. How do your credentials make you more qualified to diagnose her mental state than these professionals?

BTW, to answer your earlier question, I am not a mental health professional, as you claim to be, but I do not have the title of "liberal" and "nurse" as my screen name. Nor have I ever claimed to be a mental health professional, just someone who has compassion and an educated opinion.

[Bouncy Ball]

328. AGAIN

how in the HELL can you sit there and say you KNOW she did not have Post Partum Psychosis?

Unless you were the examining psychiatrist in the case or a juror you have no basis for that.

[liberalnurse]

234. Insults are not necessary.

You don't even know me.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

46. We are talking about murder wherein

the murderer has mental illness. The mentally ill are not completely psychotic and insane. They know the difference between right and wrong. It was not self defense or any delusion of self defense. She did it to please herself. Yes, she did...it was selfish and narcissistic.


I'm an excellent nurse as I know the difference. Pity and whining does not make a therapeutic milieu to treat the mentally ill. Reality based focus is effective.

[gypsy11]

71. I wouldn't want you treating me

if I were in need of a nurse.

[liberalnurse]

237. Great, but you best stay out of jail in Ohio then.

You'll have no choice then for me to treat you.


HAHAHAHAHAHA I can't wait. :bounce:

[gypsy11]

297. I have no intention of spending any time in jail

In any state.
I wouldn't want you treating me if I were in need of a nurse because frankly, your lack of compassion for someone whom is obviously sick, frightens me. I think I'd take my chances on my own if you were my only choice.
Andrea Yates is insane, and was in a psychotic episode when she killed her children. She needs heavy duty treatment, not prison.
And even then, I imagine that she will be in hell in her own mind for as long as she is alive, both when she is lucid and when she is not.

[Name removed]

307. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

104. You need to go back to school

your attitude is Medieval. There have been vast changes since the mentally ill were treated with leeches. I suggest you ramp up. You're not representing your profession well.

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Susang]

265. Are you a doctor?

What kind of all-knowing nursing degree do you have anyway?

[Name removed]

271. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Susang]

319. You do realize it is against the rules to call someone a Freeper?

I've lost count of how many times you've done it in this thread alone. Seriously, you really need to cut it out.

I don't believe I'm the one being hateful here. Unless you define hateful as having compassion towards all of the victims in this tragedy.

[liberalnurse]

353. Read the post again......

I said you were treating ME like a freeper... meaning thats what it feels like to ME....I didn't call you anything.....you mis-read the post. I forgive you.

[Susang]

354. Self Delete

I'm done arguing with you. :eyes:

[liberalnurse]

360. You need it and I'm giving you a lot of

forgiveness right now. You have been very mean to me.....but I won't behave in such a manor to you........:cry:

[Susang]

363. Are you serious?

This is from the person who laughed at the prospect of treating a fellow DUer who disagreed with her if he ever were in jail where she worked. :freak:

Yet, I'm the one who's being "very mean". Do you live in Bizarro World, where everything is opposite of it's real meaning?

[liberalnurse]

372. Lighten up......

In reference to your example.....That was a sarcastic way of responding to a rude, insulting poster.....

< gypsy11 (191 posts) Thu Jan-06-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #46

71. I wouldn't want you treating me if I were in need of a nurse.>

No prompting, just a mean, hateful statement made at me which I attempted to deflect. I did not deserve the unprovoked attack.

And yes, I do mean what I said, I do forgive you....I sense you are taking this way too close to the vest......You'll recover.

[Susang]

377. You do know that I'm not the poster you quoted, right?

Personally, I think you may have deserved just about everything that's been thrown your way in this thread after your incredibly inflammatory statements and your mocking attempts at "humor". You're so big into personal responsibility, why do you think your actions on this thread brought you such a response from most other DUers?

Please don't fret about me, I've nothing to recover from. Except perhaps a small red mark where I had to beat my head against the wall after reading a few of your more angry posts. But you're right, I've recovered already!

Now, in the words of my friend The Magistrate: "Goodnight Madam!"

[liberalnurse]

381. Good night to you......

And I did not deserve any of the negativity throw out by the "feelings folks".......The second trial will be a re-run of the first....she's a murder in the first degree. I have an opinion and people here tonight were incapable of handling the evidence. I can't change any of it. What is most disturbing is the resistance to discussion and a difference of opinion.....

I expected so much more form you. I am disappointed....I respect your opinion but your anger is all over the board.

I say, something else must be going on with ya and it's showing in the wrong venue. I hope you resolve your issues.

[Alan Smithee]

385. The very milk of human kindness

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2911865&mesg_id=2914033&page=

[liberalnurse]

388. Read post #372

Unless you have an ax to grind.....lighten up as well. This attitude is fruitless.....

[Name removed]

416. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gypsy11]

413. Actually, I'm a she

But thank you for your kind words. :)
I do think this particular poster lives in Bizarro World. Seems to me like there may be a little projection going on with her.

[Susang]

425. Whoops, sorry!

I wasn't able to check your profile since we were in Defcon 4, so I went with the default. That'll teach me! :spank:

[liberalnurse]

308. And you don't even know me.....

You should walk a work day in my shoes before you spew off empty insults. If you are interested, I will set up a time for you to spend the work day with me.

You can take that to the bank.

Sooooo, re-evaluate your crude remarks please. And the invitation is valid.......

[Midlodemocrat]

129. Well, I didn't treat her, but I do have a PhD in psychology

...there is absolutely no question in my mind that she is/was severely mentally ill. Her actions were not the ones of a sane person, even by legal standards, (however, in TX the legal standards for insanity require that you pretty much be dead).

Murderers like the ones you treat are probably confined justifiably, but would you condemn Yates if she killed her children if she had an epileptic seizure while driving? Mental illness is just that, an illness.

[liberalnurse]

232. No, not if she had a seizure.

She was not psychotic.either...and I presume you know what that means. The jury said she did not meet the standard.

Seizures are essentially preventable and controlled with medication providing compliance is maintained. Not a good example.

[RUDUing2]

288. and her psychiatrist said she was at that time and previously..

she had extensive records showing PPD and PPP following her pregnancies..

have you investigated this case at all..other then surface and conservative (no such thing as PPP) sites...

[frankly_fedup2]

383. You obviously do not know what psychotic is because if you did . . .

you would not make a statement like that.

The woman was hearing voices that were not there (just like the guy that tried to kill Reagan, (Chapman) who was found insane at the time of his attempted assasination, and found to be psychotic.

She was pulling her hair out of her head to prove she was marked by the devil (just like the guy in New York who said the neighbor's dog was telling him to kill, kill, kill - and was found insane because he was psychotic)

The examples of the two men, one who committed several cold-blooded murders of strangers, and the other trying to assasinate the President to get the attention of actress, Jodie Foster. They both ran (knowledge that what they were doing was wrong); however, they had voices telling them what to do. This alone was what found them insane. I do know the one that tried to assasinate Reagan has come up for parole several times and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), but he gets to go home to his parents, on house arrest, but just wearing the anklet.

[jdj]

174. Um, she was psychotic at the time she MURDERED her KIDS.

And she did this not to "please herself" as you suggest, but to save them because they were evil and of the devil and God spoke to her and told her that she must kill each of them to save them from themselves.

Now, just how is this narcissistic?

[Bouncy Ball]

329. Um, again

you do realize the insane ARE mentally ill? You keep saying insane and mentally ill like they are two different things and I find that really disturbing coming from someone who is supposedly a nurse.

Whew.

[ClintonTyree]

132. Her family surely knew she had it.................

yet they let her continue raising the children because "God" wouldn't like it if she was separated from her children.
These people were fundamentalist idiots. Another case of "God" calling the shots?
LiberalNurse has EVERY right to her opinion, as do you. But to condemn her for voicing her opinion makes you...........what? A judgmental censor that only wants to hear opinions that justify your opinion? Get real.
You go Liberal Nurse! :headbang:

[liberalnurse]

235. So, are you a pretty bad person?

I don't support murderers who kill Innocent children....so you attack my profession.....You don't even know me.

[Forkboy]

you should reconsider both aspects of your nic

[gollygee]

26. You have no idea what post-partum psychosis is

it has *nothing* to do with being selfish.

[liberalnurse]

246. She only had PPD.......

She was NOT psychotic. Thats the difference here.

[gollygee]

277. You're wrong

When someone with PPD starts hearing voices, it's moved on to PPP

[RUDUing2]

280. no she had PPP which is psychosis..not PPD.

[WoodrowFan]

29. congrats

That wins the prize as most heartless post I've ever seen this side of FR, not to mention showing ZERO understanding of mentla illness.

bye bye

[Bill McBlueState]

33. interesting

Interesting how people feel competent to judge your professional abilities based on 20 words posted to ...

An internet message board.

Weird. :eyes:

[Jesus H. Christ]

87. Those twenty words say a lot.

So do the five words: "above all, do no harm."

[Susang]

94. It's really more about these words

Don't you think?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2911865&mesg_id=2912033&page=

[liberalnurse]

269. I stand by my opinion.....

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Thanks for the link.

[Susang]

410. What does that mean?

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." What exactly are you trying to say there?

[Name removed]

259. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

394. You Are USING Your Profession

As the basis of your arguments (ie your experiences as a corrections nurse), then saying you have a right to a private opinion. Nope, can't have it both ways. The reason everyone is not buying your line of reasoning is because it is wrong. Yates was diagnosed many times , by many different doctors, as having PPP. You can say that in your personal opinion you still think she should go to prison, but you can't say she didn't have PPP.

Bah. the hell with it. I'm finished with this thread. I have to go to work.

If you believe in God, you need to pray for compassion and empathy, because without it, you are an empty person.

[China_cat]

38. She was told to

PRAY HARDER and that if she was a 'good, god-fearing' woman she'd be ok.

By her husband and that preacher of his.

[Liberal Veteran]

60. My aunt was often told the same thing.

She suffered from severe schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder.

Even under medical treatment she was never quite right. I lived with my grandmother growing up (my aunt's mother) and she would often leave her family and stay with my grandmother when things were really bad for her.

My grandmother and my aunt's preacher were always telling her to pray harder and have more faith and she'd be okay. Everytime she failed, she saw that as a sign that her faith was lacking and it spiralled down.

[msanthrope]

62. She did get help. That's the saddest part about your misinformed

post.

When her fourth child was born, she was put into a hospital, was diagnosed as psychotic, given drugs, evened out.

Rusty got her off the drugs. Bad for fetuses. He was told by her doctors that if you get ppd, once, you get it again.

Convinced her that it was her duty to get pregnant again.

So number 5, Mary is born. And Andrea sank back into psychosis.

And no one--not Rusty, not the Mother-in-law who was assigned to watch her, not her own family, ever intervened and got the psychotic Andrea back on the drugs.

What a freakin' waste.

[jdj]

184. What a freaking CRIME.

How is it that no one holds this man responsible for the safety of his kids. Had Andrea been a stranger who killed them with a past history of insanity that he knew about he may have been charged with negligence.

But since he is some sort of xtian or something he is not culpable.

Her life is over one way or the other.

But for him to get of scot free in this...He absolutely is no better than scott peterson, he saw what he wanted to see and his kids died because of it.

[FizzFuzz]

345. so very true

sexism is a terrible thing. Fundamentalism can't live without it.

:cry:

[RUDUing2]

290. actually she was put back on antipsychotic meds after the birth of baby 5.

Haldol..she was taken off it in early June and placed on effexor instead..she killed the kids on June 20.

[Zen Democrat]

384. Not get help??? She'd just been released from the mental hospital!

She was in and out of mental hospitals. She was not supposed to be left alone. Her mother-in-law was late in arriving that morning.

[KitchenWitch]

397. You do not know that she did not seek help

Most insurance plans *barely* cover anything to do with mental illness. And if there is coverage, it is so minimal, that a person suffering does not have a chance to get well - Shame on you, as a supposed health care professional, you should have more compassion than that.

[liberalhistorian]

432. BULLSHIT that she

"chose not to get help", she was DESPERATE for help! She knew something was wrong and finally did get help. When the doctors said not to have any more children because she would get very ill again, she wanted to follow that very sensible advice. But her POS selfish sexist husband insisted on having more and expected her to just deal with it.

She was finally hospitalized a couple of months before the murders. Rusty Yates was told she needed to stay in the hospital for intensive treatment and that she shouldn't be alone with the kids. HE chose to ignore that and checker her out of the hospital against medical advice because he just refused to listen or to accept how bad his wife's condition was and how much she needed help and treatment. God wouldn't do that to them, and that was that. Her family even begged him to allow her to remain hospitalized and get the treatment she needed, and he just brushed them aside. And I don't believe she knew what she was doing at all; as someone else here posted, her doctors and those evaluating her said she was one of the sickest they'd seen. Having fought my own battles with clinical depression and post-partum depression, I have at least some idea of what she was dealing with.

I remember seeing a picture of the family that was taken at some picnic or other a couple of month before it happened; the blank emptiness in her eyes was unbelievable, it was like she wasn't even there. HER HUSBAND is the selfish one and he bears a large share of responsiblity for everything. God help any other woman he marries.

And I cannot believe you, as a nurse, would think this way and believe that an extremely mentally ill person would just "choose" to do something like this. Thank God you weren't one of the ones treating me in my own mental illness. There's certainly more than enough disdain and contempt for, and prejudice against, the mentally ill among the very professionals who deal with and treat them (I've seen and experienced it first-hand), I find it hard to believe that a DUer would feel that way.

[Fiona]

2. Good

the death penalty is never justified, but especially not in cases involving such obvious mental illness.

[China_cat]

3. Her husband had been warned

by her doctor that she was in such a mental state that she was dangerous to those kids. He left her alone with them anyway.

[bowens43]

10. Her husband didn't kill them.

You want to blame the doctor too? Maybe he should have had her committed. How about her mother for giving birth to her in the first place?

[Flagius]

24. No

He just kept getting her pregnant and leaving her home alone with the kids even though he knew that she was falling deeper and deeper into depression, and that she was starting to lose it, and never bothered to seek out help for her.

[stanwyck]

100. Her husband was grossly negligent

he left his children in the care of a woman who had been hospitalized for depression multiple times and had been prescribed heavy doses of psychotropic drugs.
This is not the action of a caring father. This was, at minimum, gross negligence. I believe his inattention was criminal.

[mitchtv]

121. why he was never charged, I'll never know

when she got in trouble with all those kids, whatdid he do? He gave her another one. What a usueless Xian slug!

[FizzFuzz]

350. I don't even call it "give"

as in "he gave her another one". To me, it's more like he and the damned evil church coerced, even forced, her.

The backward views of fundamentalists, that women have no use unless they're birthing/tending children makes me scream with anger.

[jdj]

175. I ABSOLUTELY BLAME HER HUSBAND.

If you are the legal guardian of a child and you leave that child in the care of a severely mental ill person (because you feel their illness can be "prayed away") then you DAMN SURE are culpable for whatever happens to them, here on this earth, and for any lifetime afterwards.

He makes me sick, and his whole religious denial disgusts me, and not only did he fail his wife, he miserably failed his children and they are all dead because of his gross negligence.

He should absolutely be in jail at the very least, if not put to death. So then he can explain to his kids why Daddy let Mommy kill them.

[goddess40]

11. and forced her to have more after the doctor said she was in trouble

He should have gone to jail and she should be in a mental health care facility.

edit: I read in the past that she refuses her meds because when she is lucid she is tormented by what she did. She is living a nightmare, if her hubby had stood by her in sickness and in health like he pledged he would have got her help instead of impregnating her.

[vetwife]

18. this is the fact I saw

Texas court reverses murder convictions of Andrea Yates, the woman found guilty of drowning her 5 children in bathtub.

Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com for the latest news.
More Americans watch CNN. More Americans trust CNN.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


She killed those little boys. She admitted it.
Do I believe in the Death penalty. I do now after my ordeal with losing a loved one to murder. He will say he was nuts and needed medical attention too. I understand not getting proper treatment for mental illness. A lot of people are mentally ill. They don't kill. She had medication. Why didn't she take it? Why was she not in a hospital? She knew what she did because she had sense enough to call 911 and her husband. That is the one defining thing of an insanity plea. She knew she had done wrong.

[Bunny]

23. Well, your fact says nothing about the death penalty. n/t

[frankly_fedup2]

41. The first thing a person who is mentally ill doesn't want to do . . .

is take medication because they feel that medication makes them worse. It's warped, I know, but half of your schizophrenics (most on the streets) are there because they are paranoid about the medication and its purpose.

Yes, she knew it was wrong to kill her children, but she believed the voices she heard were telling her to kill them to save them from hell.

Do you remember Abraham? If he had killed his son Isaac, told them God had commanded it, what do you think would have happened to him in Biblical times?

She and her husband were a deeply religious family. I forget what denomination but was it something like a Mormon (sorry, really cannot remember). But in some religions, no matter what the woman wants, needs, or does, the woman does not even have a voice. So yeah, he is partly to blame. He saw the symptoms, he talked with the doctors, after all, didn't her mother in law come to stay with them?

So not taking your medicine is not unusual for a mentally ill person. Trust me, because I too went through this; however, I got the help I needed in time. It took me two years, but finally I got to the right doctors, and they admitted me immediately for treatment. The day I got out of the hospital, my then husband handed me my son, and left. Walked right out on me during the hardest time in my life, and as if he couldn't care less about his son.

I have since remarried a wonderful man, and still get the treatment I will need until the day I die. I'm take my first dose of medications as we speak. Choking down each and everyone of the 11 pills I have to take in the morning, and what I have had to take the last 26 years.

[RUDUing2]

155. read this page

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/cassel/20020318.html

part of what this page contains..

....Yates "knew" that a voice was telling her to kill her children. That voice was plausible to her because it had hijacked her thinking. In psychiatric terms, this is called "thought control override," and it occurs when one's delusions have taken over one's thinking to the point that the delusions seem entirely real. In short, delusional thinking redefines what, to the normal mind, is "knowing." The internal control over Yates's behavior was given over to the voices that told her to do what she did to save her children. The voices in her head were just as real to her as the voice in a sane mother's head that tells her, no matter how irritated or stressed she may be, not to harm her child. The prosecutors argued that Yates knew that she killed her children and she knew that killing them was wrong; she called her husband and 911 and reported what she had done. Applying this legalistic and simplistic interpretation to events, Yates's insanity defense was likely to fail. In what may be grounds for an appeal, the jury might have convicted Yates without finding that she had mens rea, the intent to do wrong.

Did Yates intend to commit a crime?
The evidence strongly suggests that from her own perspective, which is the only one that matters for insanity defense purposes, she did not. Yet the jurors may have been misled by the prosecution to believe that even if they accepted this strong evidence of lack of intent (or mens rea), they could still convict her.......

The prosecution and defense differed over the meaning of "right" and "wrong." The prosecution said she killed her children, that killing them was "wrong," and Yates knew it was wrong. The defense said she killed her children in order to save them from damnation, and that was not "wrong" to Yates. The prosecution's perspective of right and wrong was based on legality; the defense's view of right and wrong was grounded in morality. Yates, in her delusional and hallucinatory state, believed her acts were morally "right." If the jury could have considered whether Yates "knew" the "nature" and "quality" of her act, it could have concluded that she knew she was killing her children, yet did not perceive that to be "wrong." But Texas law precluded this analysis......

This tragedy could have been prevented. Serious mental illness existed on both sides of Yates's family. Once Yates suffered her first psychotic break after the birth of a child, she should have been educated as to the serious risks associated with having future children - due both to her severe postpartum depression and family history of mental illness. Upon release from each of several hospitalizations, Yates should have been red-flagged by community mental health treatment centers for continued follow-up. Indeed, Texas law could mandate outpatient follow-up for mentally ill patients like Yates who are on medication, but dangerous when they stop taking it. Several states have adopted these laws. They only work if health care providers, family, and neighbors are educated and vigilant - noticing changes in mentally ill persons they know, and being willing to notify the court if a mentally ill person is ignoring an order directing them to take medication. Finally, in the days before the murder, as Yates became increasingly delusional, the professionals who treated her should have petitioned the court for a civil commitment, rather than relying on Yates or her husband to make this difficult call.

[jdj]

191. the reason I am so adamant about the case

is that in this case there was a competent legal guardian who should have protected these kids and did not.

He was told by a doctor she would get this again and could be a danger to herself and her kids. He was told not only that this could come back (the ppd) but that it ABSOLUTELY WOULD come back. They chose religion over their children's safety, and now their kids are dead.

The constrast between her personality when not in ppd and when in it is what convinces me that she had serious ppd. And borderline insane from fundamentalism too, just like the recent story of the woman who cut off her child's arms.


I am very sorry from your loss, I know this is a very divisive issue. I read a follow up interview with one of her family members after the sentencing, and the woman will spend the rest of her life in hell because she is now on meds and in her right mind and will live with what she did.

I just want good to come from this story, I want people to realize ppd and treat it and no longer deny that it is a real illness, so no more kids have to die like this.

[Bouncy Ball]

331. How does killing her help her kids?

Tell me, how?

She needs to be in a high-security psychiatric facility.

The STATE does not need to be a murderer, too. I do not condone state-sanctioned murder.

"Hey we said you can't kill, so since you killed, we're gonna kill you."

It's like moms who hit their kid because their kid hit another kid and they yell "DON'T HIT" as they hit them!

:crazy:

Besides if the death penalty really worked as a deterrent to crime, Texas would be the most fucking safe place in the US!!!

[guajira]

40. And Wasn't it his Idea to home-school the kids?

I'll never understand how he got off scott-free! I would have put him in jail and ordered a surgical procedure done on him!!!

[guajira]

42. And Wasn't it his Idea to home-school the kids?

I'll never understand how he got off scott-free! I would have put him in jail and ordered a surgical procedure done on him!!!

[jdj]

180. In that kind of religious family, all the ideas are His.

[frankly_fedup2]

22. Hey, I've been there, I went into a complete psychosis and . . .

I knew reality, but then reality wasn't quite clear to me either. That was over 26 years ago and I'm still on medication. For two years I went to doctors telling them about the way I was feeling. I didn't tell them about the strange things I saw or smelled or thought, I just told them I felt depressed because I was afraid they would lock me up and throw away the key. Finally, I got the help I needed and I was told to NEVER, EVER have anymore children.

When a woman methodically drowns five of her children and then calls the police because she knows it's wrong; however, there was a voice telling her that if she didn't do it, her children would go to hell, believe me when I say, the women was not in her right mind. She should not be in jail right now either.

I cannot explain how it feels to know what reality is; however, there are things in your mind's reality there you cannot explain to anyone. You see them, you hear them, you smell them, but there is still a part of you trying to hold on to what little sanity you think you may have left.

I've always heard that if you think you are going crazy, you're not, but it's when you don't think you are crazy is when you have to worry. Well, that is a lie.

When you have a psychotic episode (which I did), due to post-partum depression, my first thoughts were my child was evil. I never let myself be alone in the house with him because I knew if I was alone with him, I would hurt him. I begged for help and went from doctor to doctor until finally I saw a psychiatrist and was immediately admitted for treatment and still receive treatment to this day.

So it's like they say . . . "Until you have walked in my shoes . . .

[Liberal Veteran]

27. Exactly....no one is saying she didn't do a horrible thing.

But people are saying that this woman was obviously no where even remotely near mentally healthy when she committed this act.

Gee, what the fuck? Convincing yourself that if you don't kill your children that they will spend an eternity in hell is a sign of mental stability?

I think people are letting their own emotion and outrage at the act itself cloud their sense of decency and reason.

No one believes this woman should be walking the streets scott free, but treating her as though she killed these kids for insurance money or something like that is ridiculous.

What woman in her right mind that really wants to get away with murder would drown her children then immediately call the police to let them know she did it? This is not the action of a ration or mentally healthy mind.

And meanwhile, hubby is running around free when he contributed to this tragedy.

[Kitka]

57. I've walked in those shoes too, and entertained

throughts that I'm ashamed to even talk about with regard to my children. If I had a husband who blew my condition off and insisted I have more children and be left alone with them? I shudder at the thought.

It scares me that people can't understand this condition.

[frankly_fedup2]

365. The guilt is always there, isn't it? You never forget, never.

Unless someone has been through this, they cannot understand it. However, I think most intelligent people can see where a women is mentally ill and psychotic to do this to her children.

We have to tell ourselves we are the lucky ones. We made it and so did our children.

How many children do you have???

I only had the one son. I knew I was never going to go through that again. Not the birth, the post-partum psychosis and depression.

Are you still on any meds for chronic depression? I have had to be on meds all my life. I am 45 (46 in 3 months YIKES), and I had my son at 18.

I almost lost my son when he was 17 when he was in a really bad car accident. I was so afraid I was going to lose him. To this day I apologize to him for not being a better mother too. I never spent the time with him that I should have. I was a workaholic during those days. It kept my mind busy and made me appreciate the time I had with my son. We'll sit and talk and I'll tell him I'm sorry I wasn't a better mother and he always says that I was a good mother and I had nothing to be sorry about. If I made mistakes, he said, it was okay because we all make mistakes and no one is perfect. Considering having me for a mother, he turned out pretty good.

As far as him being a father, he is a wonderful father to his son. He couldn't be a better father and my daughter in law couldn't be a better mother. I'm so proud of both of them and realize now that I was blessed to have him. He was such a good baby too. He hardly ever cried. At 6 wks. he slept through the night. He always had a smile on his face.

[jdj]

200. wow. that is a brave post.

I don't see why people cannot grasp that Yates will never be free again, jail or not. Thanks for being so honest.

She killed these children, there is no more happy life for her ever, and now she is on medication and in her right mind so she KNOWS absolutely what she did. Were I her, I'd ask for the death penalty.

I think Rusty should get the death penalty. He was perfectly competent, and did not protect these kids from her. He failed absolutely and completely.

And people don't also understand that religious fundies view God as a higher law. That is why they are so dishonest in politics, (like justifying rigged elections), and so quick to drop bombs on innocents. Human law only applies when it is convenient or in line with their religion. So "right and wrong" arguments about Yates are disingenuous.

I am so glad for you that you found treatment. It is brave to talk about this, even on a message board. I hope more people will be made aware about ppd because of what Yate's kids went through...I don't understand how people can deny that the chemical changes needed to grow a life inside a woman may sometimes not realign correctly..I mean, a process that produces a life is a dramatic, amazing process, why do people not accept that it can upset the balance of chemicals in the brain once the child is born, and sometimes not come quite into sync.

[frankly_fedup2]

356. I felt it had to be said. I have never been ashamed of my . . .

illness. It was not my fault and nothing I did caused it. It came from the trauma I went through having my child. My body was capable; however, my mind could not handle the pain. I never made a peep when I had my son. I never moaned, nothing and demanded natural childbirth. Also, it was an average 12-hour labor and then he popped out.

From the moment I saw him, I felt strange. I was holding him and he scared me. I never had a feeling of happiness from the time he was born. Of course, I have never told him this because it was my illness that made me feel that way and he would never understand his mother ever feeling that way.

When I heard on the news about this mother who killed her 5 children I knew what it was. No mother kills her children period, unless there is something wrong with the mother. Nature instills in all women a motherly instinct. You know how you can tell your baby's cry from any other baby? You may have only heard you child once, but you know when your baby is crying in the middle of 6 other newborns. Also, have you ever seen a woman cradle an infant and hold the baby with her right arm? No, it's always in the left arm over the heart.

I'm a grandmother now and believe me when I tell you I watched my daughter in law like a hawk. My grandson was born with a cleft lip and palate. My son and my daughter in law were so happy he was alive, it didn't matter to them. Once I got to see him, he was the most beautiful baby in the world to me too. He could not eat or suck due to his birth defect, and having worked in the medical field, I knew they would transfer him to another hospital. The first year of his life were nothing but doctor's visits, plastic surgery, my son and daughter in law running constantly and trying to work too. My grandson is a little miracle. You would never even know that the bottom half of his face was wide open when he was born. My daughter in law has been able to handle it all and could handle more. They both really surprised me as to what great parents they are. I knew from day one that I never had to worry about my grandson.

My son is 26 now and he knows nothing about what I went through. I have had a couple hospitalizations since then; however, he understands it was anxiety, depression, panic attacks. He doesn't know it all started the day I gave birth to him. I say this because it was not his fault nor was it mine, but if he knew, he would blame himself for making me sick which would be the farthest thing from the truth.

[jdj]

367. Bless you for sharing this.

This is the sticking point that is obfuscated by people desperate for revenge for Andrea Yates children. (I know this is personal but I don't believe the dead crave revenge, I believe they pity us from the other side).

I really HUNGER for people to acknowlege what happened to her so that it will not happen again to other children. This why I get angry at folks who just want to focus on the "she killed/she should die" issue, because failure to acknowledge this as a mental illness only endangers many more children in our society. We as a culture need to GROW UP and face the fact that the mind is a balance of chemicals that when out of sync can cause people to do horrible behaviors.

I shivered when I read your post about how you "felt" when you held your son. God bless you for sharing that, I have experienced chemical depression and it manifests itself in "feelings" and feelings lead to behaviors. The chemicals being out of balance cause the feelings. I know you know this but I passionately want people to understand this, as I am sure you do. Us not being able to comprehend ppd as a culture is going to lead to more children's deaths. And those are just the very extreme cases, most of the ones of neglect and abuse probably don't make the news.

For me the Yates case is exceptional, however, because there was a competent adult involved who was grossly negligent and failed to protect his children, not to mention his wife from herself. I grew up in a fundamentalist religion and I cringe whenever I think about the high-holy arrogance that lead them to go against their doctors warnings and have another child. I believe Rusty Yates should be tried and incarcerated if not fried for this. I hate to be so spiteful about this..but she was insane, yet he was perfectly competent. His behavior is unexcusable.

[frankly_fedup2]

380. Thank you, I can use all the help I can get. (lol).

I agree with you regarding society and their ignorance to PPP. PPD without treatment can lead to the psychosis. I never had any mental health problems before this time (psychologically). I knew something was wrong. I'm sure Andrea realized things were not right with herself. Just because you are psychotic does not mean you do not know the difference between right and wrong. And that right there is what the legal system bases its insanity plea on. Knowing right from wrong.

However, they will not execute (anymore that is) mentally challenged people. Mentally retarded people know right from wrong as well; however, due to a low IQ, and their inability to even care for themselves (some that is), does not mean they do not know right from wrong.

So I have a question, if we are going to execute women who kill their children due to PPP because they know it is wrong and call the police and/or try to hide it, when their doctors have failed them, their family has failed them, and they have failed themselves as well as the whole legal system failing them? Because if we do, we need to look at the "knowing" right from wrong regarding mentally retarded people who murder, rape, etc., as well. Also, when they try a child as an adult.

Remember those two boys about 10 years ago that beat that little 3-4 year old boy to death in England? Well, they were proven guilty (they were like 7 or 8 at the time), and placed in a facility for treatment. They never went to jail because they were not tried as adults.

Now this one will amaze you . . . when they both turned 18, they were released, they got new identities, and everything they did was cleared off of their record. No one that hires them will ever know they, as children themselves, beat a baby boy to death and left his body on railroad tracks. Their new friends won't know (unless they tell). Their co-workers, neighbors, or even future wives will know unless they tell them. This is what happens to all under the age of 18 murderers, rapists, etc. That is why prosecutors fight so hard to try them as adults. Because even if they are found guilty, by the time they are 18, they are released with a clean slate. No joke. It's unbelievable.

[liberalnurse]

5. I support your rationale.

I think the dead kids would agree.

[Itchinjim]

6. Why would you be happy that a...

mentally ill person is put to death?

[Bunny]

7. First of all, she did NOT get the death penalty!

She was sentenced to life in prison. Get your facts straight. Second, she did NOT "get off" anything. She has not been acquitted. Her conviction was overturned, which means she will be re-tried. And almost certainly found guilty again.

Get a grip. :eyes:

[Jesus H. Christ]

8. If she'd been a black man she wouldn't have.

Same with whatshername. Said a black man kidnapped her kids.

Susan Smith.

[eaprez]

9. Your facts are inaccurate.

The VERDICT was overturned. She never was sentenced to death. She got life but was eligible for parole after 40 years. If you read her history this is a woman where the system failed her and her kids. She had a long, documented history of mental illness. Had she gotten what she needed those kids would be alive today.

[jackster]

12. andrea yates

was a mentally ill woman and should not be held accountable for her crime (as opposed to say Susan Smith who should be held accountable!). The real evildoer in this horrific crime is her husband who knew she was sick but did nothing to ensure her's or the children's safety. He is garbage!

[PA Democrat]

53. The mental health system failed to protect those children as well

IIRC, the husband had Andrea committed to a psychiatric facility prior to the murder of these poor children. The very day she was admitted as an inpatient, the discharge date was already decided upon based upon what her insurance would cover, not based upon whether she was stabilized and no longer a threat to herself or others.

Then once she released, her doctor approved taking her off of her medication due to side effects but ordered no other replacement meds. The husband, the doctor and her extended family ALL failed to take action that may have saved the lives of those children.

[Liberal Veteran]

13. Your facts show you don't know much about this case.

Yates was sentenced to life in prison, not the death penalty.

If you aren't aware of that simple fact, then you probably aren't qualified to dispense or have a reasoned opinion on what would be just in this case.

I believe this woman had a psychotic breakdown and she has a long history of mental problems that support that.

Do not allow you emotion to overcome reason and further compound the tragedy by treating this woman as though she killed her children out on a whim or for greed.

We can do better as a society.

[Flagius]

16. So I suppose...

That if she had been sentanced to death (she wasn't, but apparently you can't wrap your mind around that), then she should have been lethally injected even though a key witness for the prosecution was proven to have lied on the stand, and it's possible (even likely) that the case hinged on his testimony?

[Solon]

21. Don't bother with facts...

Many people are bloodthirsty, its sickening.

[Orangepeel]

19. she'll be tried again, as is fair

it turns out that during the first trial, some yahoo psychologist lied on the stand in testimony against her. He said that she committed the murders after watching an episode of Law and Order where a crazy woman killed her kids, indicating premeditation. But, such an episode had not been produced at the time.

The original jurors were lied to before they made their decision as to whether or not she was competent. Regardless of your and my opinion as to whether or not she was competent, a new jury needs to make that decision.

[vetwife]

30. I am not blood thirsty but Most on here know me and this is a fact ..

My husband is 100 percent PTSD. He takes medication. He has never tried to kill us. I know many war vets. Some have gone off the deep end. He has lost touchwith reality and I got him in the hospital..He couldn't even speak.

Do I think she should pay for her actions. Yes I do.
Susan Smith should as well.
I know about post partum depression too. I have had kids.
I am not blood thirsty..I just want justice for those little boys.
Its easy to be a bleeding heart and I should know, you all know me here, as long as its not some of your family members doing the bleeding or dying.

[Bunny]

37. We do know you, and maybe that's why I, for one, am a little surprised

at the vehemence of your OP. It seems out of character for you. When you say that your husband lost touch with reality, you also say that YOU got him into the hospital. Could he have gotten himself into the hospital, if he had lost touch with reality? Maybe Andrea Yates' husband is not as supportive as you are? :shrug:

[vetwife]

48. No Bunny before me he went to the woods and stayed.

Some of you are right about people not wanting to take medication but
I also think her husband and she both had some responsibility in her actions. What about my case? How many people are responsible for Cheri's death? Do we blame the guy who sold the drugs to the nut?
Do we blame society because he has problems and was self medicating?
I am very very hurt over that murder and its one thing to lock people up and throw away the key but that just doesn't happen anymore.

I used to be very very opposed to the Death Penalty. Some in my family still are. More than those little boys died in the Yates case. A lot of dreams died from the grandparents as well.

You all act like I know nothing about mental illness when I work with vets all the time. Disturbed vets.

[Bunny]

54. I wasn't aware of your experience with Cheri, and I am so very sorry that

you went through that. Please accept my condolences. If I lost a loved one to murder, I am certain I would feel the same as you. I haven't walked in your shoes, so I can't judge your feelings. :hug:

[vetwife]

63. thanks Bunny....It was all over the news

She helped me with veterans. She called me Mom. This nut did not just kill her...He shot her so many times in the head it took 5 days to identify the body. He stalked her. She had problems and she and my son had split up over her hanging with the wrong crowd again but she didn't deserve to be killed by a crazy, whose Mother ran over a 67 year old man she was starting a job with. She tried everything to get away from him including going to the police..She died and my son's dreams and our dreams died with her. Our son and she would have eventually got back together.

This guy is claiming insanity, I have been told. They haven't arrrested him yet and we feel like we may even be targets because the guy is such a drugee. I fear for my son's life. the law can't find him and they know he did it. I've talked to the sheriff.

He's not mental..He a drug crazed jealous nut who couldn't deal with losing someone who didn't want him. He will claim insanity when he is arrested though. Wait and see. They are closing in but in the meantime we suffer.

[Bunny]

69. Well, meeting the legal standard for insanity is extraordinarily

difficult, in most states. So, if Cheri's killer is eventually apprehended, I would be very surprised if he would be found Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity. Perhaps that can be of some comfort to you?

[Kitka]

61. Not all mental illness is the same, as you surely know.

Your work does not bring you experience with PPP.

[China_cat]

44. Susan Smith got what she deserved

she wasn't in a cell pulling out her hair so that the jailers could see the 666 on her head that showed that if she had raised her kids, they'd have all gone to hell.

Andrea Yates was.

It's a tragedy. For all of them.

But if you want the most chilling part, see if you can find the clip of Rusty Yates at the children's funeral. He walked around touching each coffin with a big SMILE on his face.

[frankly_fedup2]

371. More than that. He walked up to each opened coffin, told a story

about each child, kissed them goodbye, then shut each coffin lead HIMSELF. Can you imagine? I can't. He didn't shed any tears until he go to the baby girl Mary. Odd, really odd way to grieve losing 5 children.

I have been to one funeral (my cousins) where they closed the lid of the coffin in front of the family during the service. I couldn't believe it. Every other one I had been too let the family pay their last respects and say their goodbyes, then once everyone is removed, they close the coffin.

[Bridget Burke]

45. You sought help for your husband.

Andrea Yates' husband tried--a little--but impregnated her again after being warned against it. Her family helped keep watch over her because they knew she was on the edge. But her mother had to leave one day & hubbie didn't want to leave work early.

By the way, he's her ex-husband now.

She never got the death penalty & her children were not all boys. You really need to read up on the case.

Quite a few of us have had family members bleeding, dying, etc. Sorry if we've never shared the details with the world--but they had nothing to do with this pitiful woman.

[vetwife]

49. I guess by saying boys I was thinking of Smith but

I still say some doctor will say she is well and she will be free again if she gets tried and committed to a hospital.

What's up with all of this carnage to children anyway. What about the woman who cut her kid's arms off?
Are all of these people insane?

[Bridget Burke]

76. She will never be "free"

Since her imprisonment, she has a few episodes of "sanity." She stops eating & is put on suicide watch.

Deanna Laney is another Texas woman who killed her children. She stoned two of her sons to death & one remains alive--blind & brain damaged. She had no history of mental illness & was a solid churchgoer. (Andrea Yates' husband had his own religious ideas but the family did not attend church--thus removing a possible support system.) Her lawyers were able to get her sent to a mental hospital.

[China_cat]

78. Like Yates

she heard the 'voice of god' telling her to do it.

The carnage, not just to children, is coming from the hold the dominionists are taking of the most vulnerable of our population. They advocate biblical punishments for 'biblical' crimes. Stoning for adultery and homosexuality; loss of limbs for stealing and masturbation; killing of children who disrespect their parents. Women who must be nothing that their husbands disallow. And in dominionist terms, that means being the arbiter of the family's salvation.

I remember reading about the last couple years of Yates life before the tragedy. She was homeschooling the kids and being told by her husband that he couldn't understand why she wasn't doing such a good job when the woman down the street was doing the same with -7- kids. She was, at the same time, taking care of a bed-ridden father and -all- the household chores because it was 'woman's work'. Then another pregnancy on top of all the rest (after both of them being told in no uncertain terms that she should never have another baby). A neighbor testified to seeing her washing windows on a rickety ladder at 8 months pregnant and being told that it was her job to do these things. I'm fairly sane and I don't think I could last under that type of pressure.

[FizzFuzz]

358. this background makes me want to cry. And more women can look forward to

a fate like this, as the male-supremacist, fundamentalist religions of authoritarianism and punishment take more hostages.

I think this answers the question of why all the carnage to children, committed by their mothers.

What are women to do when they are backed into a corner, with no way out, no voice, no friends, no support? And a "faith" that not only writes this sort of script, but threatens the sufferings of lakes of fire for eternity for women who dare speak or even THINK on their own behalf?

To a personality already wrestling with mental illness, what does an environment like this do? Even a mentally robust woman would have to be damaged by immersion in a life like this.

[Kitka]

55. PPD is not PPP.

Post partum psychosis is a different animal. I had it, a mild form, and thankfully I had a supportive family and husband. I saw a glimpse of what she was going through and no, you have no idea what she was dealing with with no one to turn to. She was seeking treatment, and her controlling husband did not allow her to follow doctor's orders.

I weep for those children too, but ignoring the reality of her condition for revenge will not bring them back.

[Orangepeel]

59. your husband is not relevant here

I'm sorry for your husband's problems and I commend you for the strength you have shown in caring for him. But, his PTSD is not relevant to Andrea Yates.

In fact, whether or not Andrea Yates was responsible for her actions is not even relevant to this decision. The reason that the verdict was overturned it because the jury that made the determination that she was competent did so based on incorrect information.

It is fair that a new jury make that determination based on correct information.

[tblue37]

101. Vetwife,

you know how much I admire you and the work you do. However, I think you are wrong on this. I also recoil in horror at the terrible deaths suffered by those children. But that woman should have been treated, should never have been left alone with her kids. I have known women with postpartum depression. Fortunately, they got the help they needed, but both of them told me that if they had been left alone with their kids during the time they were suffering, they know they would have done something terrible to them.

Also, I remember you posting on SC once that you awoke one night to find Namvet trying to strangle you as he was in the throes of a flashback to the war.

Yates should have been put in a mental institution and treated. That's what should have happened before the murders--and it's what should happen now.

I will say, though, that Yates herself probably would agree with you and those who think she should die. My guess is that she suffers terribly every minute of every day. If you want her to suffer, that is what is happening. She did not get off without punishment. She would probably consider it a mercy if someone would put her out of her misery.

[vetwife]

116. He did and I had him hospitalized and he finally got the right treatment

and I am furious over all this killing that is going on.
He was having a flashback. You know what though, if he had killed me or harmed me I know he would not want to live with that. I truly believe he could not handle the guilt of harming others. That is what is so confusing to me.

[stanwyck]

105. what justice is appropriate?

for a severely ill woman? You're in denial. You are blood thirsty. There is no other explanation for the quality of your mercy being so strained. You want vengence. Not justice. Read about this woman. She was so ill she was hospitalized on many occasions. She took numerous drugs. And her husband left her with the children knowing she was incapable of taking care of them. She was dangerous. And no one stepped in on behalf of the children. Until it was too late. Your outrage now is not unlike those who constantly are horrified that Hussein murdered thousands of his own. Well, where was the outrage when the murdering was happening...15 years ago? Just silence. You have to act. You have to help. You're not solving problems. You're just casting blame and preaching intolerance. This woman was dangerous. She was sick. And she was left in charge of vulnerable children. Let's attack the problem: the lack of treatment and understanding of the mentally ill.
Let's not take your tactics and return to The Middle Ages.

[RUDUing2]

109. PTSD is not the same thing as atypical postpartum psychosis..I am

surprised to hear that someone married to someone w/mental issues would not understand the variety of mental issues and how they effect a persons ability to function and what they do in relation to their behavior.

If you want justice for her Andrea Yates children then you should be working to get doctors and the justice system to research, diagnose and treat women w/PPP in order to prevent these things from happening (like they do in England) instead of wanting to punish the mentally ill after the fact...

[Bouncy Ball]

333. Well that's great that your husband has never gone off the deep

end, but that kinda makes him and you lucky right?

So too bad for the unlucky, right?

[Midlodemocrat]

25. She is very, very sick

If you are going to be mad at anyone, you should be mad at the husband for leaving such an ill woman home with five small children. She is an object of pity, not hatred.

[maveric]

74. Ted Bundy was very, very, sick too.

Most people who commit murder are mentally ill.

[Liberal Veteran]

95. I disagree.

Most people commit murder for personal gain or malice or to cover up another crime.


A few do rise to the level of mentally ill, but to say most people who commit murder are mentally ill is hardly factual.

Now you might say that a person who doesn't come to the same conclusions based on how YOU value life is mentally ill, but it isn't really a definition of mental illness.

[LostinVA]

107. Bundy was a SOCIOPATH

He didn't have a hormonal inbalance, depression, or a psychotic episode. He was not ill or insane. Much like The Boy King.

[maveric]

110. His whole life was a psychotic episode. Sociopath=mentally ill.

[Bunny]

111. Being mentally ill does not mean you meet the legal definition of

insanity. Incidentally, sociopaths understand the difference between right and wrong. Their problem is that they simply don't care.

[Liberal Veteran]

118. Agreed...althought it's kind of a sideline to the discussion.

I disagree with the poster that said that MOST murders are the result of mental illness.

I think only a few murders are truly the result of mental illness.

In the case of Andrea Yates, I haven't seen anything that indicated she wasn't EXTREMELY mentally ill at the time. Nothing about her actions make sense or seem even remotely rational. She has a history of being institutionalized and severe problems. The system broke down in a terrible way in this and the husband has blood on his hands as well.

I just don't see how any rational person can come to the conclusion this woman was not seriously deranged.

I feel deeply sorry for her and the children. I feel nothing but contempt for the husband.

[Bunny]

130. Oh, I agree with you. If she didn't meet the legal definition of insanity,

I cannot imagine who would.

[RUDUing2]

134. and each state has its own criteria for insanity under law...

this site gives an excellent over-view of Texas law concerning insanity and of the Andrea Yates case...

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/cassel/20020318.html

.....Texas has one of the most stringent insanity defense standards in the country.

According to section 8.01 of the Texas Penal Code, Yates had to prove a negative--that "at the time of the conduct charged...as a result of severe mental disease or defect, did not know" that her conduct was "wrong." This is one interpretation of the mens rea requirement of criminal law--the defendant must have had "criminal intent" or a "guilty mind." Texas's law is derived from the most restrictive legal insanity standard, the M'Naghten Rule (so named for a precedent-setting British insanity defense case). But unlike Texas's statute, the more typical version of the M'Naghten Rule asks whether at the time of the offense, as a result of mental disease or defect, the defendant was unable to know either the nature and quality of the act committed, or whether the act was right or wrong. In contrast, as noted above, under Texas's standard the defendant must prove the latter factor--failure to know the act was wrong. The law could hardly be narrower. ........

......Yates's attorneys offered evidence that she believed she was saving her children by killing them. From her deranged perspective, she was doing right and not doing wrong. This distorted belief was a product of her delusions and hallucinations. Commands from a voice told her drowning her children was the way to save them from "damnation." If this evidence is to be believed, Yates knew what she was doing, but did not know that it was wrong. She should have been found-even under Texas's narrow law--not guilty by reason of insanity.

Psychosis--A Different Kind of "Knowing"

Then why didn't the jurors find Yates to be insane? One answer may come from the fact that many people have difficulty understanding that people suffering from delusions and psychosis can know what they are doing, and yet not know that it is wrong. It may be possible for most people to understand someone not knowing what they are doing; most of us have seen people under the influence of drugs or alcohol whose judgment about what is going on around them is dramatically impaired. But we have not generally had experience with people who are not just impaired, but actually delusional.
Yates "knew" that a voice was telling her to kill her children. That voice was plausible to her because it had hijacked her thinking. In psychiatric terms, this is called "thought control override," and it occurs when one's delusions have taken over one's thinking to the point that the delusions seem entirely real. In short, delusional thinking redefines what, to the normal mind, is "knowing." The internal control over Yates's behavior was given over to the voices that told her to do what she did to save her children. The voices in her head were just as real to her as the voice in a sane mother's head that tells her, no matter how irritated or stressed she may be, not to harm her child........

[liberalnurse]

376. I agree........

[LostinVA]

133. No, you don't know what a sociopath is

Sociopaths are NOT insane. They know the difference between right and wrong just like "normal" people do. Andrea Yates was mentally INCOMPETENT. Bundy was competent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

204. Bundy was a sociopath

not the same thing

[Lydia Leftcoast]

305. Ted Bundy was a sociopath, not delusional

There's a difference.

A sociopath is fully lucid but lacks a conscience and does whatever he can get away with without ever feeling guilty or remorseful. No medication can change that.

A delusional person believes that his crazy ideas are true, that the voices in his head are speaking the truth, and that whatever he does is justified according his own disordered brand of thinking. However, medications can make a delusional person lucid, at which point they are horrified at what they have done.

A sociopath is never horrified at what he has done.

Comprende?

[FizzFuzz]

361. Bundy was a psychopath--thats a personality disorder, not a menta

mental illness.

There are plenty of professionals here who can explain the difference in culpability better than I can.

[RUDUing2]

28. do yourself a favor..read some about what Atypical Postpartum Psychosis is

Yates was almost a textbook example.

here are some places that will help you understand the mental illness she sufferend from: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/depressi...

This is a rare complication of childbirth, occurring in 1 in every 500 women or so.

It is most likely to occur in mothers who have previously had an episode of serious mental illness or in those who had a strong family history of serious mental illness.

Symptoms of the disorder can be very varied but usually include a disturbance of mood, though this can be either an elevation of mood (mania) or depression. Other symptoms include having muddled thoughts, false ideas (delusions) and hearing voices or seeing things that are not there.

Symptoms appear from a couple of days to a couple of weeks after the birth.

Postnatal psychosis requires treatment that will depend on the exact symptoms that the mother is suffering. This will usually involve a psychiatrist. It is important for mothers with postnatal psychosis to receive treatment as soon as possible.

also: http://www.everybody.co.nz/docsi_p/pnp.htm
http://www.iwant2bhealthy.com/mother_and_baby_health/mi...
Post-natal psychosis is the most severe form of post-natal depression, affecting 1 to 3 mothers in 1000. It generally begins within the first 10 days after birth. Half of the women are admitted to hospital in the first two weeks, as they lose touch with reality and may harm the baby.

There are three types of psychosis: mania, depressive psychosis and atypical psychosis. Those suffering from mania may experience excitement and extreme bursts of energy. The mother may lose her inhibitions and makes unrealistic, grand plans.

Depressive psychosis is the opposite. The woman is confused and in a dazed state. She may suffer from delusions.

In atypical psychosis there is confusion, thought disorder and hallucination. Delusions of psychosis can include believing that people in the hospital are conspiring to kill them or feeling as if possessed by evil spirits. In this state mothers can be of great danger to themselves or to others.

********************
what makes me sick is how people don't believe that mental illness is real and how little knowledge people have of how the mentally ill act and react..and especially how little people in this country know about postpartum mental illness..IT IS NOT *JUST* baby blues.....she *knew* it was wrong legally..but her mental state did not acknowledge that it was wrong for her to commit the acts..instead her mental state was that the only *right* thing to do was what she did...

also
http://www.pregnancy-info.net/postpartum_psychosis.html
First recognized as a disorder in 1850, postpartum psychosis is a very serious mental condition that requires immediate medical attention. Interestingly, studies on the rates of the disorder have shown that the number of women experiencing postpartum psychosis haven’t changed since the mid 1800s.....Postpartum psychosis has a 5% suicide rate and a 4% infanticide rate.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/9/1548

and the US could learn a lot from England
England's approach

British law, however, has long held that women who kill their children might suffer from postpartum mental illness.

In 1938, Britain established an Infanticide Act. It states that if a woman kills her child under the age of 12 months, "but at the time of the act the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child ..." she is guilty of infanticide and should be punished as if she had been guilty of manslaughter.

Likewise, English doctors are often more aggressive in treating postpartum disorders, routinely giving hormone injections as preventive treatment. Several English hospitals offer mother-baby units for treatment of mothers who suffer from postpartum disorders.
http://www.left-bank.org/FreeDebra/chgotrib.htm

[Politicub]

31. Ok whatever

There are more important things afoot right now (oh, like challenging electoral votes) than the sensational Yates drama.

I do hope you are able to gain composure and stop your gratuitous hand wringing.

[WoodrowFan]

32. is this FR now?

I'd expect this kind of post in FR. black & white, no grays, just VENGENCE!

[vetwife]

35. No this is not FR....this is me after one of my loved ones

got multiple gunshot wounds to the head by a so called mentally ill drugged out nut !

[WoodrowFan]

43. and killing a mentally ill woman

will do LOTS to change that, won't it?


And yes, I've had a loved one hurt like that. A cousin I was close to was killed in a botched robbery by some drunk losers who bought a cheap gun one Saturday night while drunk and decided to rob someone to show off for some chicks. While I'll like to wring their worthless white-trash rednecks myself, that kind of vengence will do NOTHING but endanger my own soul. Lock up the sane ones and get help for the insane (while keeping them locked up for safety).

[Cleita]

34. Actually, the religious fundies who made her

and her husband have all those children, even though they were cautioned by her doctors not to, should be the ones to get the death penalty. Andrea will suffer far more in prison than she would if she got the death penalty, unless they put her in a mental institution.

[DelawareValleyDem]

36. Why aren't the freeps

screaming for the witness to get the death penalty? Didn't he violate a Commandment by bearing false witness?

[Cronus Protagonist]

50. Every killer is mentally ill

I suspect she's getting special treatment because her motives came "from god".





http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[Kitka]

58. Not every killer was seeking treatment for their illness.

Not every killer admits to their feelings and has them blown off by her controlling husband, who then forces her to be alone with the children her doctor says she is a danger to.

The only thing that her religion has to do with this is the sad reality that her husband used religion to force her into this situation.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

She got her treatment she sought alright - murdering her children

She was not "forced into this situation". She freely murdered her children.

She deserves no sympathy. I hope she stays in the hole for the rest of her life. I don't believe in the death penalty.

[Kitka]

72. It's scary that you don't realize

the mind control that spouses can exert on their spouses. Or that the church can exert on their members. It's scary that you don't realize a thing about mental illness. Yes, she should be in treatment, but not in a "hole". Sticking her in a hole will do nothing to help our society deal with PPP. Getting her in treatment for a long time, perhaps for life, could. Ignore the real problems and history WILL repeat itself. Sad and scary.

ETA Yes, she was in treatment for her psychosis. Do you not even know the basics of the case?

[vetwife]

80. Are you saying Idon't knowabout mental illness?

Oh yes I do. I would be willing to bet I have talked to more doctors on behalf of vets with mental illness than anyone on this board. I may not know it all. I say mentally ill people are not 100 percent insane every minute of the day. If she had taken her medication..which was her choice not to..and if she were that insane...more people should be on trial as accompliaces and she should still not get off scott free. I say she knew right from wrong when she did it. If she didn't know what she was doing..WHY DIDN"T SHE KILL HERSELF? Why did she just kill the kids and if she was insane at the time of the killing, how did she have the sense to call and tell what she had done. That just to me kills the insanity plea.

[Kitka]

96. Actually, I wasn’t posting to you.

The person I was posting to made such callous statements about her “seeking” to kill her children it was obvious that he/she wasn’t aware of the struggle this woman was going through.

You’ve stated many times throughout this thread you’re familiar with some forms of mental illness. But, again, your exposure to PTSD does not make you the board expert on PPP.

You have no idea if it was her choice not to take her medication. You also don’t know that she wasn’t unaware of what she was doing when it happened then came out of a fog after she finished killing them. You’re speculating on a lot of things here.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

91. I realize that mental illness is no excuse for murder

Oh, I feel depressed. Mabye killing all my children will pep me up.

[Susang]

97. Is that what you believe she felt?

Honestly?

[Kitka]

98. You should really read more.

Go read up a bit about the differences between situational depression, chronic depression, post partum depression, post partum psychosis… the list goes on. Different diseases, different problems. If you actually think that PPP is just “oh I’m sad, let me go kill my kids” then you’re even more ignorant than I thought and will not be wasting any more time on you.

There is no excuse for murder. Mental illness is a reason, not an excuse. And if we treat all situations in a blanket way, ignoring the realities and grey areas that exist, we are being naïve and lazy as a society. We obviously all have a lot to learn about PPP so that this does not happen again and again. Sticking someone in prison to rot instead of treating them and learning about their condition through the treatment does us no good. But I suppose saving future children from this fate isn’t as important to some people than vengeance is. Again, sick and sad.

[RaleighNCDUer]

429. There is a world of difference between feeling depressed and

being in a depressed state. Somebody suffereing from a depressive illness does not feel like the world is going to hell. He feels like he is in hell. There is no escape. Nothing can change, nothing ever will.

PPP is similar in many ways. The religious psychosis she suffered told her that she was saving her children, by sparing them from this demon-haunted world. That she might know it was against the law would make no difference to what she felt was right.

Perhaps only those who have been personally touched my mental illness can really understand its power.

[Liberal Veteran]

65. Hardly....I don't think every killer is mentally ill.

Some people kill out of greed.

A man who kills someone he has just robbed to prevent being identified is not necessarily mentally ill.

A person who offs his wife to get insurance money is not necessarily mentally ill, he is greedy.

A person who kills someone in a drug deal gone bad isn't necessarily mentally ill.

There are lots of killers who may not be good people and have a sense of values that prevents them from committed a horrible act, but it doesn't necessarily make them mentally ill.


An otherwise decent person with a history of mental illness who does a horrible deed under the notion that if she doesn't her children will burn in hell for all eternity because that's what the voices or the skewed mental abilities of that person came to that conclusion, probably is mentally ill and deserves a bit more compassion from us than the person who murders out of malice or greed.

[CWebster]

52. So the punishment should be

the crime?

[China_cat]

64. No.

The worst thing would be to let her out because her husband would have her pregnant again in no time at all and the whole thing would start all over again.

But jail is the wrong place for her. All she'll get there in the way of help is being given the meds, if that. She needs psychiatric care. Prison is not the place to get it.

[LostinVA]

68. No, He Won't Impregnate Her

Dear Rusty is (or has?) divorcing Andrea, and has apparently joined a Christian singles group to meet a good fecund... errr.... God-fearing woman. Isn't that frigging heart-warming???

[China_cat]

183. Gee what happened to

his pledge to stand by her no matter how long it took?

Fundy asshole.

[vetwife]

70. Lets go back to

knowing what she was doing when she did it. She had a mental problem. We know that. She was on medication and had come off of it.
We know that.
Was she insane when she kiled those children? Insanity in the way I understand it, means you do not know the difference between right and wrong. Did she? She knew she had done something wrong or else she would not have called the police or her husband.
Was she insane at the time of the murder? I say no.
I would be all for locking her away forever but that just does not happen anymore.

[Kitka]

75. In all honesty,

neither you nor I were in the courtroom and neither of us are qualified to make the call of if she was legally 'insane'. I don't like when cases are tried in the court of public opinion and should just keep my mouth shut. But it's hard when this topic comes up because so many misconceptions are thrown about regarding PPP.

[Susang]

77. Is that all sanity is to you?

Knowing the difference between right and wrong? I know that's considered the legal definition, but is that all you think there is to it? Really?

[vetwife]

84. I know thee is a difference between insane and mental illness

I know mental illnes is treatable. I know some are never cured. I agree that some people kill for a lot of reasons. I don't think they all have mental illness. I do believe in mental problems and chemical imbalances. When it comes right down to it....The legal question of insanity is all that matters in a court of law.

[Susang]

86. Not all mental illness is fully treatable

Not for some patients. For others it can take years and years of medication and therapy. This woman was being incorrectly medicated and received no therapy.

[CWebster]

79. Anybody who would do that is insane

It is the definition of insanity

[Orangepeel]

83. Was she insane at the time of the murder?

You have a right to your opinion, but a jury needs to make that decision in a fair trial.

The first trial wasn't fair because the jury was lied to about an issue that was highly relevant to whether or not the murder was preplanned.

It is only fair that she gets a new trial at which time a new jury will make the decision.

[CWebster]

90. The question is:

What is the state's excuse for committing murder?

Insanity?

[Bunny]

93. Your reasoning is flawed.

You wrote:

"Was she insane when she kiled those children? Insanity in the way I understand it, means you do not know the difference between right and wrong. Did she? She knew she had done something wrong or else she would not have called the police or her husband."

If she was sane, she would NOT have called the police and reported herself. She would have called and said "oh my god an intruder just killed my kids". If she was sane, she would have tried to get away with the murders.

I read somewhere that the legal definition of insanity is akin to this: if you kill someone out on the street, in full view of a police office, you are probably insane for legal purposes. If you make an effort to cover up your culpability by murdering in private, hiding the body, lying, etc., you are probably not legally insane.

That may be simplistic, but I think Ms. Yates comes close to meeting that definition. Although she did not kill her kids while a police officer was present, she called the police immediately afterwards and confessed. It sounds like mental illness to me.

[chefgirl]

179. I agree that letting her out would be wrong

The worst thing would be to let her out, I agree, but not for the same reason.
I also agree that prison is the wrong place for her.

Mentally ill or not, she WAS competent (functional) enough to call her children to the bathroom, one by one, and drown them.

I contend that if it was mental illness that led her to methodically murder every single one of her children, she should never walk the streets again. Someone THAT mentally ill should be in an institution for a VERY long time.

-chef-

[txaslftist]

67. Gotta go anti-death penalty.

It's cases like this one that death penalty advocates point to and say, "See- the state doesn't get to murder her...no fair!"

Whenever I see a death penalty case debated, whether it's Scott Peterson, Andrea Yates, or Joe Smith, I have to remind myself of the thirteen men on Illinois' death row who were acquitted because a bunch of college kids re-investigated their cases. They were first convicted because the prosecution cheated, the cops lied and because they were by and large poor and black. They were convicted by unanimous juries and sentenced to death.

Years later these college kids took a re-look at the evidence, in some cases DNA evidence, and were able to prove BEYOND DISPUTE, that they were actually innocent and falsely convicted.

If you are pro-death penalty, you have to support it in their cases, too. I can't. It's not wrong because it is morally wrong -some might argue that it is-; it is wrong because it is inaccurate and biased against poor persons and persons of color.

We're supposed to be the party that stands up for the poor and stands up for minorities. Don't let your outrage at what she did blind you to that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Good. The death penalty is barbarism.

And, serves no purpose other than satisfy the bloodthirsty.

[maxsolomon]

81. she killed her own kids

in my warped darwininst opinion, that is less bad than killing someone else's.

she was nuts, and her husband sure didn't help. i think he's culpable for impregnating & isolating her.

fundy wackos.

[vetwife]

82. God does not tell people to kill...

If a voice told her to kill, it wasn't God. Don't blame the church on this act. The church did not tell her to kill the kids. Unless of course it was a Satanic Church.

[Liberal Veteran]

85. Perhaps not, but mentally ill people with a extreme relgious bent...

...can convince themselves that God is indeed the one that is telling them to do a particular act.

Difficult to understand? Perhaps. But that is the nature of mental illness. People who are very mentally ill don't necessarily come to rational conclusions. That's part and parcel of the illness.

Adding God/faith/relgion into the equation can often make matters worse.

I watched my aunt who was told by her mother and her preacher that she just needed to pray harder and have more faith, and even while under treatment she would spiral down into little breakdowns at the drop of a hat.

Each time that happened, she would convince herself that she had "failed" to be faithful enough or didn't pray hard enough and further her delusion and beat herself up over her lack of faith. It was sad to watch.

Religious faith and mental illness can be a TOXIC combination. Do not discount that, because I have seen it first hand.

And the bible isn't necessarily helpful. People will open the bible and look for faith, but what happens if they open the Book of Job? What happens if they read about God killing all the first born in Egypt? What happens they read "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

Seeing the corrupt and warped processes of the mentally ill mind is difficult, but do not think for a minute that extreme faith and mental illness cannot be a very dangerous and explosive combination.

[Susang]

88. People who hear voices like she did are mentally ill

Particularly when the voices are telling you to do bad things. It's considered an aural hallucination and it's often a part of a psychotic break.

[put out]

113. It is so frightening for those folks hearing voices.

The "voices" are, from descriptions made to me by those unfortunate enough to hear them, advocating destruction and self-loathing.

Never do the hallucinations say things like "You are a great person", or "Nice job you are doing; good for you", or "It is a good thing to be kind; you deserve to be proud".

More along the lines of "Kill yourself", and "They are talking about you because everyone knows you are worthless", and "Set things on fire".

So very sad for them. The voices, as described to me, seemed very real to these psychotic patients. Some knew they weren't real and were actually a symptom of the mental illness. Some didn't know this, and truly believed the voices came from an outside entity.

[Susang]

412. I'm sure it is

A relative was hospitalized for PPP, she heard voices and was afraid she was going to harm her newborn baby. I've never forgotten how terrifying it must have been for her to go through that.

[CWebster]

92. Satan was created by the Catholic church.

as part of a campaign to smear other religions and discredit the feminine as part of the divine.

[China_cat]

186. But she BELIEVED it was.

And is that any different than Abraham ready to sacrifice Isaac because god told him to? How did he know for sure it was the 'voice of god' or a hallucination? Because a burning bush told him he didn't have to go through with it?

[FizzFuzz]

366. just my two cents, but to me those fundy churches ARE satanic. n/t

[Iris]

427. Probably not, but there has been some research that shows for a period of

time after childbirth, women are capable of killing their young. This is sort of a survival of the fittest protection - if the woman believes the child will be a hindrance or danger to her or her other young, it would be better to not have the child live. Some believe post-partum depression is a remnant of that instinct.

I guess this society doesn't like to allow any ugliness to tinge our pristine view of motherhood.

[Ilsa]

102. Susan Smith didn't have PPD.

Her kids were older and her actions were of a desperate woman trying to land her boyfriend by getting rid of her kids.

Yates is just f&%king crazy, hearing voices. Allright, that's no way to put it. She has psychosis and schizophenia. She thought she was saving her children and protecting them from the devil by killing them. She'll never be free again. She was also convicted of First Degree Murder based on the lies of the state's witness.

Edited for content.

[vetwife]

106. Well...I am just tired of innocent kids dying..

I am sure tired of good people dying....I am real tired of it and I am still really hurting over that murder in our family.
I am not that woman's judge..Thank God.
There are members of my family who think I am wrong a lot since we had that killing in our family about how I have become cold. I just see things differently now. I can't explain whats happened other than I looked deep into what I felt and changed some of my views.

[Susang]

108. I have a question, if you don't mind my asking

Why aren't you more angry at her husband? He left a mentally unstable woman home alone with those children and isolated her from her friends, neighbors and family. At the time of the case, many felt that he should have been brought up on charges himself.

Shouldn't the children's father bear some responsibility in this case?

[vetwife]

112. I am angry at him..especially for defending her

I have no doubt the woman is disturbed. I just don't know whats happening with all the killing here. I think some on here may be right that I don't understand her problem but irregardless, if you are not totally insane, you have to pay for what you do. Well some do.

I think we have got to get mental health for people but I don't want the government testing us all. I think people need to stop all the hate and start trying to Take Back some sanity. I have seen some really sick people in my life. Put yourself in this place. If you got a phone call saying sorry dear all the kids are dead, I drowned them.....How would you feel? I would be off the deep end. I am angry at him. I am angry at myself as well for not rescuing Cheri when she was running from that maniac in Alabama., but I didn't know that was what was happening. Our son and none of us knew her position and that too makes me angry.

I got sense enough to know that every situation is different but I got a lot of anger in me over murder. Feelings I never had before.

[Bunny]

117. Vetwife, you are such a good person.

I hope that you can work through some of your anger, and the feelings that you've never had before, and achieve some semblance of peace. You certainly deserve it.

May I ask, have you joined any support groups, such as Compassionate Friends, or Parents of Murdered Children? They may be a good resource for you.

[vetwife]

127. No..I have been sick since this all happened..

Physically and our whole household is in pain.
I have got our 14 year old in therapy and our son has no insurance.
My husband never gets out of bed now and I am angry that the suspect (I have heard through her family) that his family says he is SICK. Its a mess.
He has disappeared too.

[RUDUing2]

114. if you are tired of innocent kids dying then you would be fighting

against her conviction and against her being judged sane by the courts..

there needs to be aggressive action by doctors in diagnosing and treating PPP..and it needs to be court enforced if necessary..for the safety of the children...(if you want to see how it should be handled check out Englands law on infanticide 1938)

By refusing to acknowledge that PPP is a legitimate claim of insanity as they have did w/PY all that occurs is that women w/PPP continue to go untreated and 4% of them will continue to kill their children..and then those women spend the rest of their lives in prison being punished for the failure of society to diagnose and treat them and save the lives of their children.

[Kitka]

148. That is EXACTLY what I’ve been trying to say.

If people truly want to honor the memory of those children, it won’t happen by murdering their mother in revenge. It will happen through treating her and learning about PPP to prevent this from happening again.

[Bouncy Ball]

337. I don't understand how you think the state killing

Andrea Yates will make anything better.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vetwife]

120. That was sick Fred Fury ! Just sick !

[redqueen]

119. Mental illness

She should not have been allowed to stay alone with those children.

I agree with this decision wholeheartedly.

[WillyT]

122. And This Is Important To Democracy, HOW ???

:shrug:

[Bunny]

124. I'm sorry. I didn't realize we weren't permitted to discuss this.

Do we all check in with you first now, to see what we're allowed to discuss? :shrug:

[WillyT]

131. You Weren't Aware Of The WillyT Approval Ratings System ???

I'm so sorry.

But by all means. Why don't we waste copious amounts of time, energy, and bandwidth on Yates, Scott Petersen, Michael Jackson, and a dozen other Court TV\Soap Opera subjects that our crippled media use to divert our attention from the onslaught of fascism in our once great country.

Or not...

[Liberal Veteran]

135. I think what goes on in our court rooms is indicative...

..of the health of our democracy.

[WillyT]

149. Of Course You Are Correct...

It's just the 'Cable-izing' of it all. We get all pissed when certain stories become so inflated by the cable news shows, that they take away every other story of import. You know...

All Scott Petersen, all the time.

The actual court proceedings are important, it's just that after the cable carpet bombing, I roll my eyes and gag at the very mention of the subject. And... I sometimes suspect that these stories are specifically used to keep others off the radar.

The Plame case comes to mind...

:shrug:

[Bunny]

139. Well, maybe you should just go your way, and I'll go mine.

I won't demand prior approval of your topics, and you do the same for me. Or is that not a part of the democratic process?

[frankly_fedup2]

374. Bunny, sorry to say this but there is nothing about DU and posting . . .

here that is Democratic. If we had freedom of speech here, no posts would be deleted. The monitors decide what is allowed and what isn't. Skinner and his monitors will also be the first to tell you that this is their bulletin board and whether you like it or not, they make the decisions here. This board is not a democracy . . . far from it.

Just the truth.

[RUDUing2]

125. the state of the legal system in a democracy...IMO it is a prime

example of the increasing need of the american people to demand vengence instead of justice...

[gollygee]

128. Oh yeah, legal issues are only important if they are men's legal issues

Sorry.

[WillyT]

143. No... Not At All !!!

I think Andrea Yates is\was a very disturbed person, and I don't think she deserves the Death Penalty. Of course I don't believe in the Death Penalty, but if you are going to have one, you don't execute the mentally ill.

That said... It's just a pet peeve of mine, that the Yates\Petersen\Jackson threads get more responses than many a thread concerning the political health of this country. (Kind of the purpose of this board.) It seems as though we are about to turn into a cable news discussion group.

But... this IS General Discussion, so discuss away.

Peace!

BTW - I, along with two of my sisters, took my 76 year old mother to the March For Women's Lives in D.C. last April with a million other like-minded folk. We discussed women's issues all day and way into the night. We actually do this on a regular basis normally.

:shrug:

[gollygee]

145. OK

I'm glad to know it wasn't because it's a woman's issue.

:D

[NNN0LHI]

123. What do you say we all get together and stone her to death?

That will bring them kids back to life.

Don

[IrateCitizen]

138. It will also show how civilized we all are...

... and above such barbarity as drowning one's children due to extreme, untreated mental illness.

Why do we kill people to teach others that killing people is wrong?

[Kitka]

144. Unfortunately, it seems that is what some people actually want.

[Bouncy Ball]

338. Best Sarcastic Post Ever.

[jswordy]

126. It's simple to me...

...two wrongs do not make a right.

The state-sanctioned killing of another person will not give those kids their lives back.

We so easily confuse justice with retribution in this country. We see them as interchangeable. But they are not.

[vetwife]

136. It won't bring the kids back. If I personally

killed Cheri's killer, it wouldn't bring her back. The key here is
a paradox. The hate and drugging continues and people need to reachout and try to understand one another and yet something crazy happens and emotions get all tangled up and before one knows it, they have become cold and callused. I don't believe in the death penalty for MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE but what if they are using it as an excuse? How do we really know?

What kind of parents and doctors do we have ..What have people become? Under new testament an eye for an eye does not apply but like I said ...no one will lock these people up and treat them.
Hinkley wants more priviledges now. How can I teach my children of consequences, even if they have problems when there seems to be justice for some and not for others? Everything is upside down...

[Solon]

140. That's for the courts to decide...

NOT you, to prejudge someone based on inaccurate information is not only wrong, it is irresponsible. The fact is that a DOCTOR LIED about her illness, leading to an overturning of the verdict. Are you saying that doctors should do whatever the hell they want, to the point of perjury, just so people can be locked up?

[IrateCitizen]

141. Teach your children of consequences???

Is that what this is really about to you, vetwife? I would think that if you teach your children about simple right and wrong -- and also the Golden Rule of simply treating others as you'd want them to treat you -- they'll be OK. Focusing on consequences is part of the "strict father" upbringing -- the kind that the right wing focuses on.

If there's any "lack of consequences" here, it's for Rusty Yates. He's the one that forced his wife to have more kids, even after the doctor told him that she was losing it. He's the one that insisted on keeping her a virtual prisoner with those kids 24/7, even as she was breaking down. Andrea Yates, if not executed, will still be either jailed or institutionalized for the rest of her life. I think that there are plenty of consequences she's suffering. Introducing state-sponsored barbarity into the equation isn't necessary.

[prolesunited]

142. So, since no one will take responsibility

we should just then kill these people?

Just imagine, if your husband had some traumatic break given his illness and did something totally out of character, would you advocate that *he* receive the death penalty?

Here's a site where you may find hope and help: http://www.mvfr.org/

I hope you find a way back from your suffering. What I am hearing on this thread is not you talking, it's your grief and pain. May you find peace in the days ahead.

[ArkDem]

137. Every person needs forgiveness.

[vetwife]

147. I know what you say

Ark Dem is true. How do I get there from here? I pray everynight. Since Nov 14th I have searched and searched for what I believe or thought I believed and I am sick of a lot of things going on.

[Cuban_Liberal]

146. She didn't 'get off'--- she got a new trial.

The woman is severely mentally disturbed, and the prosecution lied to get the death sentence for her. I'm an ex-cop and NOT 'soft on crime', but that's just WRONG.

[Jose Diablo]

150. It is not right to execute people that are insane

If they cannot determine right/wrong due to insanity, how can they be responsible for what they do?

[Jack_DeLeon]

151. wow what a bunch of bullshit...

she is definately guilty of the murder, and while I think she probably was insane I dont think she should get off because of it. IMO if someone is insane and commits murder they are even more deserving of the death penalty.

[Solon]

154. So someone, not in control of their actions is more...

responsible than someone who is? Talk about Bullshit, also read the thread again, she never got sentenced to the death penalty, she is getting retried because the Prosecutor's Doctor perjured himself in front of the jury, but I guess that shouldn't matter. Why not just get rid of the Constitution while were at it?

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack_DeLeon]

159. IMO the real reason she is getting a new trial...

is because she is white, and a woman.

[Solon]

161. Why not just kill all the mentally ill?

:puke:

[Jack_DeLeon]

216. because its not fair...

to punish people who have committed no crimes.

Why do people always bring up this strawman.

Its one thing to executing mentally ill people who have committed murder, its another to execute mentally ill who have done nothing wrong.

[Solon]

218. So is what you proposed...

To use your idea is both discriminatory, medically ignorant, and wrong.

[Jack_DeLeon]

245. excuse me...

where is the discrimination?

Mentally ill who have commited murder should face the same punishments as people who arent mentally who have committed muder? How is it discriminatory to treat them all the same? It would be discrimination not to treat them the same.

[Solon]

262. You did not say equally...

you said that those that are Mentally Unstable should get the death penalty more often than sane people, regardless of the fact that your assertion about them is unsubstantiated, i.e. not based in reality.

[frankly_fedup2]

436. He won't have too. Eventually, we all usually take care of it . ..

ourselves. I'm surprised Andrea yates hasn't tried to to committ suicide AGAIN. She's already attempted it twice. Third time should be the charm.

[Liberal Veteran]

166. So you think that if a material witness perjures himself in a trial...

...that the defendant should not be entitled to a new trial?

Please explain yourself.

[Jack_DeLeon]

219. I havent read the specifics on how...

the guy perjured himself. If this was a trial where someone's guilt was in question then yes a new trial would be in order, but there is no question of this woman's guilt.

[Solon]

221. I just realized something....

I'm debating a sociopath, or someone close to it. Good bye.

[Kitka]

162. Does that logic extend to mentally ill children too?

[Jack_DeLeon]

217. if they are charged as adults...

which is very unlikely, then I would say yes.

[Liberal Veteran]

164. Your compassion for the mentally ill is....underwhelming.

You know, mental illness CAN and IS treatable. Wouldn't it be better to treat the person who suffers from a mental illness rather than just kill them?

I am sorry, but if you really believe killing mentally ill people is justified, then I don't know what to say other than I find such an attitude and lack of compassion contemptable in the extreme and disgusting beyond belief.

[buddhamama]

165. huh-

i am seriously trying to follow the flawed logic.

if a person in their right mind knowingly commits murder then that person is more likely to do so again. they have shown a complete disregard for right and wrong actions, the law and have used reason to justify it.

someone not in their right mind may not fully be able to comprehend what it is they are doing. oh and, treatments for the mentally disabled do exist.
on the other hand, i don't think doctors have found a cure "asshole" yet.

edited content

[Liberal Veteran]

156. What? Please clarify that statement.

1) She didn't "get off". She is being given a new trial because there was perjury done (pesky law). No one is saying (even her) that she didn't commit the act in question. The question is WHY.

2) Why is a person who commits a terrible act because they were not in their right mind MORE deserving of death penalty than someone who say kills his wife for insurance money or doesn't want to give up half his assets in a divorce?

Do you really believe that mental illness is not an illness?

[Kitka]

158. Well, I have to ask since this is so out of my realm

of comprehension… What specifically about being mentally ill while committing murder makes one more deserving of the death penalty?

[RUDUing2]

163. all I can come up w/is the *rabid dog concept*...

a mentally ill killer is like a rabid dog and you have to put them to death to protect society from them...

didn't realize that there were people who still believed that way...

Wow!

[Solon]

167. Yeah, I don't see why anyone would think that way...

and still consider themselves human.

[Liberal Veteran]

168. Let's also lock up all kleptomaniacs too!

Because they are likely to steal again!

Fuck that treatment business. That would be....well...humane and compassionate!

[Solon]

185. You know what?

I think Jack isn't coming back, why should he, I'm still not sure if he is playing devil's advocate yet or not, but his position on this seems more along the lines of Iran's than America's.

[Bouncy Ball]

340. Um

she's NOT GETTING OFF because of it, she's getting a NEW TRIAL because an expert witness for the prosecution LIED on the stand.

Or don't you believe in due judicial procedure?

Hmmm?

And your last sentence is just SICK.

[buddhamama]

153. She's getting a new trial

that's not the same as getting off.

You're trying to rationalize the actions of an irrational person ie, she called her husband. The woman is mentally ill. I am opposed to the death penalty, btw.

[ElectroPrincess]

160. As a mental health counselor I applaud this decision.

Anyone who has had the opportunity to earn an advanced degree in Psychology knows that "psychotics" are NOT legally responsible for their actions when this condition is active. When off meds and psychotic, they live in a different reality with no right and wrong clearly defined.

I submit that those people who are still calling out for revenge need to search their OWN SOUL first instead of judging the intentions of other whom you do not know. Like John Hinkley, Yates will NOT EVER, like *never* be discharged from a high security mental hospital. As it should be.

[vetwife]

170. You know what?

I know the truth. I am still too angry to be posting on any boards.
Not about this type of situation. I know one thing. I hate hate.
I know my heart tells me how it should be and my head is still spinning from pain and suffering. I am not God. I should not even
have gone here with the state of anger I am in. I don't want anyone upset on the left or the right or in the middle. I don't want anyone to suffer anymore.

I do apologize to anyone reading this for my jumping to a conclusion regarding getting aaway with something.
I also do not want to confuse my own feelings with that of another case.

[ElectroPrincess]

227. I applaud you ... you IMHO have a tender heart and good soul

because you are willing to search within. I'm so thrilled and also humbled VetWife for I fully expected a non-response.

Remember folks, its the outer fringes of the far far left and the far far right where people will NEVER admit to making a mistake.

We are blessed to be thoughtful progressives who admit fallibilities and at least "try to listen" to each other.

VetWife, although we may disagree on some issues, as a person, (and for the little it's worth) you're aces with me. :toast:

[vetwife]

294. Thanks Princess

I think my wound is still pretty fresh on me. I didn't mean to start all of this.

I know one thing though...people are talking about issues and not getting hit by the press. They are debating.

[Bluebear]

182. Bravo for your brave post

In this bloodlust "drown the bitch" society, it's good to know some people still can look at situations with some medical objectivity.

[David Zephyr]

190. If She Had Been A Black Woman, She Would Have Already Been Fried.

While I'm at it, Yates' husband should be in prison, too.

[Solon]

196. Too true there...

I still don't understand why people would support the death penalty in the United States, when it is fundlementally UNEQUAL in how its applied.

[David Zephyr]

198. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

243. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

249. There is nothing "good" about the death penalty.

Good lord, how disgusting.

[PurityOfEssence]

296. Nah, not if she believed in Jesus

That's the big elephant in the room in this thread: religion. It's not the cause of every ill, but it's sure as hell a great enabler.

Those of us who don't believe generally get stopped by our friends and family when we're hearing voices and believing other supernatural fantasies.

Those of us not in a world-conquering mindset don't force our wives to breed wholesale, and if we did, we'd get an earfull.

All of these incidents have extreme, fundamentalist Christianity driving them. People without a view of an afterlife tend to stop short of killing their loved-ones: there's no "out". Death is death, no some springboard to happyland.

A woman cuts off the arms of her toddler. A woman smashes the heads of her children with rocks after hearing god tell her to do so. A woman helps her boyfriend behead her children for some greater whatever of the Witchy Man. A woman drowns her children. What's the connection? They all happened in the last few years in Texas, and they are all within communities of EXTREME literalist Christianity.

Yet with each event, virtually no questioning of the concept of the supernatural seeps into the major media, and the joy and undeniable truth of the flimsy guess is evoked as a source of strength, instead of THE CAUSE THAT IT IS.

Yeah, it's mental illness that doesn't necessarily come from religion, but religion exacerbates it and fertilizes the ground in which it grows.

[Bouncy Ball]

342. TOO fucking true and very very very sad.

Shame on our society.

[jmm]

197. If a witnessed lied when Ted Bundy was convicted

I'd even want him to get a fair retrial too. Everybody, even the unpopular, should have the right to a fair trial.

[proud2BlibKansan]

201. SHE IS INSANE!!

She just recently asked her husband how the kids were!!

Mentally ill persons should NOT be executed.

[liberalnurse]

252. Not all the children were murdered.....

Not all of them were at home that day from my understanding.

[proud2BlibKansan]

273. Oh I had heard she killed them all

not that it makes any difference

[RUDUing2]

289. all 5 children were killed..she was only charged w/3 deaths though.

you really need to do some more studying about this case...you seem to have a few serious misunderstandings and misperceptions of this case.

a good starting point would be http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/index.html esp. concentrate on chapters 6 (She told her psychiatrist that she was hearing voices and seeing visions again about getting a knife. She began to scratch at herself, leaving sores on her legs. Then Rusty found her in the bathroom one day pressing a knife to her throat. He took it away and got her hospitalized.

Andrea confessed to one doctor that she was afraid she might hurt someone. She refused medication and withdrew from all efforts to help. She refused to answer questions. Finally, she was given a shot of the antipsychotic drug Haldol. She got a little better, and then worse, so she was given more Haldol. She improved slightly, but would not eat. She was afraid of what her visions might mean.(this was in 1999 after her 4th pregnancy)Despite doctors' warnings to have no more children, they had a baby girl, Mary, late in 2000. Rusty believed he would spot the onset of depression and get help if needed. He was sure any bad effects could be controlled with medication.
To this point, she'd experienced several episodes of psychotic hallucinations, survived two suicide attempts, taken a number of different medications, and been diagnosed in several institutions with major depression. Now she had five young children to care for, three of whom were still in diapers.
When Andrea's father died a few months later, she stopped functioning. She wouldn't feed the baby, she became malnourished herself, and she drifted into a private world. (in early june she was taken off of anti-psychotic medications-Haldol and placed on Effexor..she killed the children June 20)

also would suggest you closely read chapts. 12, 13 and 14

also another source of info..

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/columns/fl.cassel.yates.03.18/

[Shakespeare]

408. You'd think someone would show a little humility after it's pointed out...

...that they're arguing based on an incomplete grasp of the case and the case facts.

:eyes:

I don't know, like maybe STOP beating the dead horse, like maybe saying, "oh, man, I didn't have all the facts, so that obviously changes things," or like maybe just admitting you were WRONG.

Sigh. Such hubris.

[Bouncy Ball]

343. Uh, yes she did.

They were all home that day.

[miss_kitty]

208. Pro death penalty equals

not progressive.

It is cruel and unusual punishment and we're one of only a couple of industrialised coutries that employs that method of punishment. It is unfairly imposed, and when carried out in error, as has been done many times, there is no remedy.

People that kind of sick don't realise it. It doesn't matter how much they're told. It's mental illness. And she needs to be treated differently from a guy (or gal) who kills with malice aforethought. As a severely depressed person, I believe she was not capable of forming intent.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

211. I agree...

The Death Penalty will be abolished, it is just a question of when. And when our descendants look back, they will wonder what the hell we were thinking as we look back on our ancestors who supported slavery.

Look at what a great crowd follows the death penalty:

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Morocco
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States of America
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

[Jack_DeLeon]

224. the death penalty...

is neither cruel or unusual.

[Solon]

228. Its inhumane...

I cannot believe someone like you would have such a callous view of human life.

[Solon]

230. I have a question for you about the Death Penalty....

All things being equal in the cases, who is more likely to get the death penalty:

1: A white man allegedly killing a black man

2: A black man allegedly killing a white man

Don't give me any bullshit about how things SHOULD work in this country, lets talk about reality. You talked about what I proposed not being fair, well do you like how the system is setup now? Actually answer the questions honestly for once.

[Jack_DeLeon]

236. obviously...

the black man is more likely to get the death penalty.

That is not fair, but I dont think we should do away with the death penalty because of it. If the black person comitted murder then the death penalty would still be appropriate.

I've said it before the real problem with the death penalty is that whites arent willing to sentance thier own to death as other groups are.

I'm Hispanic and I would have no problems with sentancing any other Hispanics to death if they commited horrible murders.

Whites need to step up and punish thier own.

[Solon]

241. So Equal Protection under the law means nothing to you?

I mean, seriously, if a law is not equitable applied across the board, it should be uncontitutional, should it not?

Also, another question, if I may, what do you think is the appropriate compensation for those who were wrongfully executed and were exhonerated after the fact. For their families and loved ones that is.

[Jack_DeLeon]

242. the law is the same across the board...

murder is as illegal for whites as it is for blacks. Its the punishment that is not the same apprently.

However if thats what you are going on, then that would mean that all laws would be unconstitutional since blacks almost always get harsher sentances than whites.

As for what appropriate compensation is, the family should be allowed to sue the state and all parties involved even the jury, and another jury should decide what is fair.

[Solon]

248. OK, so, you have no problems with innocents...

being executed, check. Also, its the application of the law that is unequal, not the law itself. Another question, if found that an execution of an innocent person was the result of perjury, should the witness in question, as well as the Prosecuting Attorney if s/he had foreknowledge, be brought up on criminal charges, with penalties up to and including death?

[Jack_DeLeon]

250. obviously innocent people should not be executed...

however if that does happen those responsible should be punished, everyone who is responsible.

[Solon]

253. So what does that mean...

Putting everyone who participated in the trial, from the Judge to the Attorneys, to even the Juries on Death Row?

Another question, since you think that innocent people are not to be executed, how can you ensure that will never happen?

[Jack_DeLeon]

257. It means...

that they should all be held responsible most likely civillally for cash money. However in your case about someone who perjured themselves then I think they should suffer more harsh criminal punishment than a regular person who perjured themself.

There is no way to ensure that innocent people are not executed, there is no way to ensure anything actually.

[Solon]

263. If someone lies and it leads to another's death...

how is that different from any other premeditated murder?

[Shakespeare]

264. "There is no way to ensure that innocent people are not executed"

And that is why the death penalty should be abolished. That you seem unable (or unwilling) to grok that is just incredible.

[Solon]

266. That is also why I oppose the death penalty n/t

[miss_kitty]

279. "Whites need to step up and punish their own"????

Gack! What a weird thing to find on a progressive board.

That bizarro statement aside, if the state kills a person who did not do the crime, there is no taking it back. What if was you, our someone you knew and loved who was erroneously smoked by the state? Your kid, say? Your mom? You? What about your family going through that and finding out after the fact, you were, without a doubt, innocent? Would you be all up on the death penalty then?

[Bouncy Ball]

346. FUCKING A!!!

If the DEATH penalty isn't cruel and unsual then hell, I don't know what the fuck is.

You are delusional if you think the death penalty isn't cruel and unusual. THEY KILL YOU!

And by the way, do you know the whole procedure?

They first give you an injection that paralyzes all of your muscles. You cannot move. You can't even blink.

Then there is an injection which causes you to suffocate from within (it affects your lungs).

It's not quick and despite all outward appearances, it is FAR from painless. It's just that the prisoner can't so much as twitch.

The state does that so that the people watching won't see the agony of it all. Isn't that peachy?

So he slowly drowns to death from inside while not being able to move.

Hell. You don't think that's cruel and unusual? How about if someone did it to you? I bet you'd think it was then, wouldn't ya?

[greyfox]

223. It was a shock....

that they even re-opened it.... good God... what possible difference will THAT silly excuse make?

[buddhamama]

231. the difference is, the Rule of Law

Constitutional protection/s- yeah, can we get any sillier :eyes:

[Jack_DeLeon]

239. So what possible outcome could a new trial have?

Did she somehow not kill her children? Is this all a conspiracy, was she framed? Was it someone in the grassy knoll that killed her kids? :eyes:

[buddhamama]

244. so you do not care about the rule of law?

pity.

She murdered her children, yes. No one has claimed otherwise.

What exactly is your point in visiting this thread, to repeat over and over again how the mentally ill should all be put to death.

speaking of the mentally ill, when was the last time you had yourself checked by healthcare professional?

[Jack_DeLeon]

247. sometimes I wonder if people know how to read...

Please point out where I stated that mentally ill people whould all be put to death. Otherwise you are just lying.

I however think the mentally ill should face the same punishments for comitting the same crimes that the rest of would face if we committed such acts.

[Solon]

251. Actually you said...

that they should be punished with death more often than sane people.

[Jack_DeLeon]

254. yeah thats about what I said...

which is still far from saying "all mentally ill people should be executed."

[Solon]

258. How do you justify that position without facts to back it up...

as far as I know, most repeat offenders, especially of crimes like Murder, are quite sane, and do it for pragmatic reasons more often than not.

[buddhamama]

261. oh. you do not appreciate my exaggeration

then maybe you can understand that, support and defense of the Rule of Law does not equal an exemption or an excuse from what she did nor does it equate to a grassy knoll killer theory.

[buddhamama]

255. yep. thank you

i was about to point that out to Jack.

And I quote (from post 157)

"If someone commits murder because they dont know right from wrong, or they cant control thier actions then IMO that makes them more of a threat than someone who murdered someone because of a specific reason. As such they are more deserving of the death penalty because they are more likely to repeat the crime."

[Jack_DeLeon]

260. yes thats what I wrote, but what you claim that I wrote was different...

you claimed that I said the mentally ill should all be put to death.

That would imply that I thought that all mentally ill people regardless of thier actions should be killed.

[buddhamama]

267. and i spoke of the Rule of Law

and Constitutional protections and i was rewarded with a 'conspiracy theory' reply.

[miss_kitty]

281. Malice aforethought. Accidental. Self defense. Insanity. Manslaughter

You seem to be painting as black and white, something the society and the courts have agreed upon there are grey areas.

Can someone in a deep chronic depression form intent, which leads to malice aforethought? No. There is a problem in the brain chemistry that causes bizarre reasoning, hallucinations, paranoia and other altered mind states. This woman, and others like her, are probably the LEAST responsible for their own actions. She no more deserves a harsh penalty than does someone who kills in self-defense.

If you think this woman deserves the Death Penalty, then you ARE saying mentally ill people should be put to death. Not all, but some.
And I go back to my original stand:
Pro Death Penalty is not a progressive value. It is state-sanctioned pre-meditated murder. And engaging in it, based on the law as it stands for individuals, calls for the Death Penalty.

[Bouncy Ball]

347. Do you not get that we have laws and judicial procedure in this

country?

Damn, I bet $500 if a member of your family were on trial you'd be screaming from the hilltops for the state to follow the law to the LETTER. But oh, you're willing to just throw it aside in this case, right?

An expert witness for the prosecution LIED on the stand. That's a pretty big fucking deal.

[greyfox]

393. Wellllllllll....

we let the Shrub back in office, so maybe so.

[buddhamama]

398. welllllllllllll

i don't see how someone who is complaining or, disagrees with following the rule of law and protecting our Constitutional Rights, has any credible argument against Bush.

imo, there is no middle ground when it comes to equal treatment/protection under the law. you either support it or you don't.

[greyfox]

415. weeeeeelllllllllllllllllllllllllll

because the Shrub sucks.

[Steve2525]

268. She got off the death penalty at her trial

and now she can't be sentenced to the death penalty in a second trial, at least that is what I heard on the MSM who found that more important than the challenge to the election today.

[depakid]

270. Delusional people often do things like that

It doesn't make them less delusional. In fact, they can often be very calculating- even though they are operating under a set of pathologically disturbed thoughts.

For example, there are many cases where people commit suicide due to delusions of say, demons walking the earth as a prelude to Satan taking over. A mother or father fears for their children is left behind (to face what he or she sees as abominable) and so kills the kids prior to killing themselves. There's no malice involved- far from it.

In terms of the old (and outdated) insanity defense in Texas- such a person couldn't as a matter of law be convicted, because they didn't know the difference between right and wrong. As far as what they knew in their delusional minds, they were doing the right thing. Maybe even the only thing to save their kids from hell.

If the defense can prove the pathology with solid evidence (as the defense pretty clearly did in Yate's case) then the person cannot legally be convicted of murder, because they didn't have the capacity to form the mental state- the intent or even in most cases negligence.

That doesn't mean they walk, of course- a person with a mental disease or defect who commits a criminal act will be segregated from society in an appropriate facility- which, by the way, aren't all that much better than prisons.

[NightTrain]

285. Sorry, Vetwife, but I oppose the death penalty.

The U.S. is the only western industrialized nation to continue this barbarism. I say it's about time we caught up with the rest of the industrialized world and abolished the death penalty!

[Vektor]

287. There was a little girl too.

A six-month-old baby girl.

[sendero]

291. I am not against the death penalty...

... but in this case there is way more than reasonable doubt of the sanity of the perpetrator.

If there was some way to wager and some way to know the objective truth, I'm betting on a 90% chance she was off her rocker.

I believe in saving the death penalty for cut-and-dried cases, where everyone agrees beyond any doubt that the act was willful and that the defendant was the actor.

[Arkana]

293. I'm going to be flamed for saying this

but I think she deserves to die for what she did.

It's conflicting, because most of the time I'm against the death penalty for any criminal. I just...I feel like I have to support it this once.

[Liberal Veteran]

300. I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to ask you a couple a questions

Who is more deserving of the death penalty?

a) A mentally ill woman who is so delusional she kills her children in the belief that is the only way to save them from going to hell?

b) A mentally healthy man who kills 5 convenience store clerks in rash of robberies for money.

c) A mentally healthy man who kills his wife for insurance money.

[Arkana]

303. First, thanks for not flaming me.

Second, I can see maybe I was misguided. Was it proven that Yates was mentally ill? Because if she was, then I guess I have to change my opinion, because I can't support the execution of someone who isn't playing with a full deck.

[Liberal Veteran]

304. Yes...Yates has a documented history of mental illness.

She was even institutionalized at one point. She was hearing voices and had attempted suicide several times.

The standard however in Texas for an insanity defense is whether or not the mental illness impairs your ability to distinguish between right and wrong.

In this case, Yates was under the delusion that she was such a horrible parent that if she didn't kill her children, they would go to hell. She knew that killing the kids was wrong, but at the same time had convinced herself that killing the kids was the only way to ensure they went to heaven instead of hell for all eternity.

She was a deeply, deeply ill woman.

[RUDUing2]

295. some info for those saying Andrea Yates was not psychotic and/or insane..

http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm
Warned About the Risks of Having More Babies : Andrea was again hospitalized and stayed in a catatonic state for 10 days. After being treated with an injection of different drugs that included Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug, her condition immediately improved. Rusty was optimistic about the drug therapy because Andrea appeared more like the person he first met. Dr. Starbranch warned the Yates that having another baby might bring on more episodes of psychotic behavior. Andrea was placed on out-patient care and prescribed Haldol.
The Tragic End: In March of 2000, Andrea, on Rusty's urging, became pregnant and stopped taking the Haldol. On November 30, 2000, Mary was born. Andrea was coping but on March 12, her father died and immediately her mental state digressed. She stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself, and would not feed Mary. She also frantically read the Bible.
By the end of March Andrea returned to a different hospital. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Mohammed Saeed, treated her briefly with Haldol but discontinued it, saying that she did not did not seem psychotic. Andrea was released only to return again in May. She was released in 10 days and in her last follow-up visit with Saeed, she was told to think positive thoughts and to see a psychologist.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/drownings/1296569
Yates, who medical records show suffered from schizophrenia and severe depression after the births of her last two children, pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

Boswell said his group obtained Yates' medical records, which are now public records, last week and had them reviewed by a board-certified pharmacist, a physician and a psychiatrist.

"We feel like she was in a system and she should have expected a positive outcome," Boswell said. "There is accountability here."

Yates' records from her hospital stay at Devereux Texas Treatment Network in May indicate her condition had not changed much between her admission and discharge. Boswell said the complaints mainly target the League City psychiatric hospital.

http://www.psychology.sbc.edu/Case%20Study%20Andrea%20Yates.htm
in the three weeks prior to the murder, Yates described is wife’s movements as robotic and withdrawn (CNN.com/LAW CENTER, 2001). The truth is Yates thought about murdering her children for up to three months prior to the killing, first she thought of using a knife, but it was too bloody (Turnheim, 2002). Oddly, Yates felt that she had received messages from cartoon characters that drowning her children would result in the destruction of Satan and that her death would further fulfill the prophecy (Turnheim, 2002). She felt her kids were “retarted and tainted” and that she was controlled by Satan (Turnheim, 2002). During the incident Yates was having an “acute psychotic episode” (Turnheim, 2002). Parnham, Yates attorney, believes that this mental state took her out of the real world (CNN.com/LAW CENTER, 2001). This acute psychotic episode would have a postpartum onset for Andrea and she had the warning signs of delusions and hallucinations, strange beliefs or fears, and confusion. Yates also suffered from postpartum depression with psychosis. Conclusions can be drawn that it was in fact Puerperal psychosis, the most advanced form of postpartum mood disorders. These patients are severely impaired, suffering from hallucinations and delusions that frequently focus on the infants death (Leopold & Zoschnick). These hallucinations often lead the woman to hurt herself or her child, placing this classification at the highest risk for committing suicide and/or infanticide (Leopold & Zoschnick). Most of these patients suffer from affective disorders or schizophrenia. With Yates symptoms and prior history it seems that not only was she suffering from puerperal psychosis, but potentially from schizophrenia (Leopold & Zoschnick).
***** Andrea was on four types of serious medications, three antidepressants and one for hallucinations and delusions, but she was not receiving therapy after the birth of her fifth child. Postpartum mood disorders have a high recurrence rate and doctors are aware of this. For a woman with a history of depression and attempted suicide, therapy should have been a must after the birth of Mary. Not having Andrea in therapy was like asking for a death sentence for these children. ********

http://www.psychohelp.at/h/college/abnormal/postpartum_depression.shtml
Her diagnostic impression is as follows:

Axis I- Particular clinical syndromes, postpartum depression with psychosis.
Axis II- Personality disorders, Differed.
Axis III- General medical conditions, No known allergies, resent overdose.
Axis IV- Psychosocial and environmental problems, severe multiple births.
Axis V- Global assessment of functioning, score of twenty.

[durutti]

298. I oppose the death penalty in principle. However...

I don't believe in "mental illness". I honestly feel the insanity defense ought to be abolished.

[Liberal Veteran]

299. You "don't believe in mental illness"? Please clarify.

That's like saying you don't believe in herpes or small pox. Mental illness is pretty much well established.

Hearing voices, real hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, bi-polar disorder, the list goes on and on, and it's a documented and observed fact.

What is not to believe? You think mentally ill people are just "faking it"?

[depakid]

301. Hardly any clarification necessary

It's like "not believing in evolution."

There isn't a rational (nor even a fair metaphysical) reply, so don't hold your breath waiting for one....

[durutti]

311. More like not believing in phrenology.

I'd suggest learning something about the history, philosophy and sociology of science in gneral and psychiatry in particular.

[depakid]

433. That would be my suggestion as well

because your "view" is not only profoundly ignorant in terms of medical science, but it's also dangerous to the extent people are naive enough to believe you and not seek treatment.

[Shakespeare]

409. "There isn't a rational reply"

Uh, no shit. "Rational" being the key word here. :eyes:

[durutti]

309. This is what I mean...

Historically, "mental illness" has served a role similar to that of "race", religion, and gender. That is, it's a means of social control. "Race", religion, and gender have all been used to justify oppression, repression and exploitation of all kinds. Labeling people "mentally ill" is similarly a way of reinforcing conformity to societal standards.

This is most obviously illustrated by the ever-changing criteria for what does and does not constitute mental illness. The tendency for slaves to try to escape to freedom was once widely thought to be a mental illness. So was homosexuality.

Today, there's a long list of alleged "mental illnesses", many of which are so vague that they can be applied to most any behavior differing from the norm. A critical reader can find in them reflected large numbers of cultural biases.

The view that mental illness is essentially a myth is not novel. Psychiatrist Thomas Szasz addressed the issue in his classic The Myth of Mental Illness. His exposure of psychiatric abuse had long-lasting effects on the profession. You can read an overview of his argument here: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm

It should be noted that no one argues that the "symptoms" described in your post are not real. Rather, what is argued is that they should not be considered diseases.

Is "mental illness" a "documented and observed fact"? No, as Szasz demonstrated both in the linked-to article and in his more recent works (and the works of others). The fact that so many believe otherwise is a testament to the influence of drug companies and of the reductionist paradigm in science. One must not so easily forget that the utility and scientific basis of eugenics and phrenology and the idea that reading would prevent women from menstruating were also once considered "documented and observed facts" by many as well.

[Liberal Veteran]

312. Not to put too fine a point on it, or to be ironic, but that's insane.

A person who hears voices that tell them what to do, has debillitating and unaccounted for mood swings and behavior, engages in behavior that is dangerous to themselves and those around them including self-mutilation....

Not sorry to say this, but you subscribe to very fringe and stupid beliefs if you think mental illness is not a real phenomenon.

Yes, in the past and even currently there have been misunderstanding about the causes and what constitutes it as well as what is just "odd" versus what is really an illness.

Believe me, people like my aunt who could slip into a screaming and crying spiral of self-hatred at the drop of a hat with no real reason was definitely ill.

[durutti]

316. The point is this...

1. The criteria qualifying one as suffering from any of various "mental illnesses", like those of "race" or gender, are constantly changing.

2. These criteria reflect cultural biases. We know they did in the past, and it's sheer hubris to insist that they don't today. Indeed, much of the time these criteria are so vague that they can be applied to most any behavior that differs significantly from the norm.

3. There are undoubtedly people who have problems in living, sometimes severe (including, as you mentioned, hearing voices and the like). But these problems are just as much social as they are mental, and aren't illnesses by any consistent definition. I have no doubt that the problems that your aunt and others have experienced are terrible, but to insist merely on the basis of their being terrible that they qualify as illnesses is an emotional appeal and not a logical argument.

4. Most of those who suffer from alleged mental illnesses do not suffer severe symptoms, but nonetheless suffer from the societal stigma attached to their supposed condition and the abuses rampant in the psychiatric profession. For these people, the concept of "mental illness" does more harm than good.

5. Those who do suffer from severe problems should seek help, up to and including professional help -- but only voluntarily. There is nothing wrong with family and friends trying to convince them that this is the correct course of action. However, legalizing involuntary commitment does more harm than good.

6. People who have proved themselves a danger to others should be dealt with accordingly regardless of whether or not they are "mentally ill". Statistically, the sane are more dangerous.

7. Suicide is a civil right.

8. The idea that mental illness is a myth is certainly very much a minority conviction. This does not, however, make it wrong. Thomas Szasz has considerable academic credentials, as do many others who accept this view. One must remember that psychiatry (especially in this country) has in recent years become very closely tied to the pharmaceutical industry. One must also remember that things like eugenics, phrenology, the spontaneous generation of maggots from meat and the non-existence of meteors were all once widely accepted in both the scientific and lay communities.

[Maiden England]

334. You give me the excuse the post my favorite example...

To help people understand one small aspect of mental illness.

This is a documented and reproduceable phenomenon. PET scans (which show where blood is being used in the brain) show this. When a person thinks to them self. They 'hear' as it were their own voice formulating a thought. Well thats all well and good, you know you are thinking. Normal people show the speech area being activated and the hearing area turned off (less blood goes to areas not being used), and the frontal area - complex thought processes - being activated.

Well. People who hear voices, when they think, the hearing center gets activated. So their brain thinks they heard it. Imagine if you could not tell the difference between how your thoughts sounded and when someone speaks to you. How would you know the difference? You can say, oh but there's no one around, but the brain does funny things to be able to rationalize things.
Think capgras syndrome. Here the connection between the visual cortex and memory cortex is damaged - usually by trauma. Patients can recognize their loved ones, but they cannot associate that image with a memory or emotion. The brain 'decides' the only way to explain it, isn't oh I had an accident and I lost that pathway, but rather, that person is obviously an imposter. Its freaky, but thats the way it works.

Mental illness is very very real. Its unfortunate that the brain is very complicated and we have a seriously long way to go before we understand even half of it. But even in today's limited knowlege we have found ways to demostrate a physical cause behind some mental disorders.

[durutti]

373. Incorrect.

There is one mental illness for which a fairly conclusive genetic cause has been established: Alzheimer's.

PET scans mean nothing, since a great deal of evidence suggests that learning and experience alter the brain. Twin studies are fraught with methodological flaws and rest on a dubious assumption of equal environments. Furthermore, the criteria for some mental illnesses are so vague that studies essentially become Rorschach blots for the researchers.

[miss_kitty]

318. nice current source ya got there

By Thomas S. Szasz (1960):eyes:

um-with EEGs and PET scans and other brain mapping technology around these days, it's pretty much a given that people who suffer from certain mental activity, have different brain patterns than people who do not suffer from various and sundry mental disease. So Szasz says:
"Correctly speaking, however, these are diseases of the brain, not of the mind." OK. Potayto-Potahto.
This Szasz argument-which seems to be one based on semantics-is 45 years old. Now he is 85. He's backed his pet theory of his four and a half decades. Why change now?

And I will post your own argument back to you:

"One must not so easily forget that the utility and scientific basis of eugenics and phrenology and the idea that reading would prevent women from menstruating were also once considered "documented and observed facts" by many as well."



You rest my case.

[Susang]

349. I've got a more current one

From Szasz's own site, no less (in the "critics corner" section):

HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL
DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHIATRY

MASSACHUSETTS MENTAL HEALTH CENTER
74 FENWOOD ROAD
BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS 02115
TELEPHONE: [phone] EXT. 476

THOMAS G. GUTHEIL, M.D.
PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY
DIRECTOR OF MEDICAL STUDENT TRAINING
CO-DIRECTOR, PROGRAM IN PSYCHIATRY AND THE LAW

April 18, 2001

Jeffery A Shaler, Ph.D.
School of Public Affairs
American University
4400 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington DC 20016

Dear Dr. Shaler:

Dr. Harold Bursztajn passed on to me the invitation to write for Szasz under fire and I in turn have tried to interest others in this, alas, without success. The reasons given are listed below, which may or may not be helpful to you.

Most of Szasz's ideas of the mythical nature of mental illness have been rendered obsolete by genetic studies, imagin, cross-cultural anthropology and the like. While many legal scholars see him as important to that field, the damage he has done to care of the mentally ill has not been carefully assessed and cannot be overestimated. Well-meaning but misguided advocates following his leads have trashed mental health delivery systems in state after state and have clearly contributed to the adversarialization of the mental health advocacy systems. More clearly venal forces from Ronald Reagan to Scientology have been able to draw on his "teachings" to support their causes, again to the detriment of patients.

My own view is that he was popular as a sixties kind of guy, an anti-establishment rebel where the facts he distored were not a problem for the political force of his claims; any smidgin of value he could have had is long eclipsed, and, except as a trip down memory lane, I can see no reason whatsoever why he deserves a book like this, even a mixed one with opposing views. Dr. Szasz is simply no longer worth it.

I regret that neither I nor Dr Burstajn was able to help, nore were our recruiting attempts successful to get any one else to care enough to do it.

Regretfully,
(signed)
Thomas G. Gutheil, MD.

http://www.szasz.com/critics.htm

[durutti]

368. One thing...

"Most of Szasz's ideas of the mythical nature of mental illness have been rendered obsolete by genetic studies, imagin, cross-cultural anthropology and the like."

This is not true at all. The genetic basis of mental illness is disputed by many researchers -- most of who, it is worth noting, oppose Szasz's point of view. See, for example, Pseudoscience in Biological Psychiatry by Colin Ross and Alvin Pam. There is no conclusive evidence for a genetic basis for any such "illness", with the exception of Alzheimer's.

The rest of the letter consists of ad hominem attacks to which no reply is warranted.

BTW, Reagan also (mis)used Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould's idea of punctuated equilibrium to try to argue that the fact of biological evolution was doubted by credible scientists. Of course, this is not what punctuated equilibrium means at all -- but it didn't prevent them from claiming otherwise. And Szasz has long spoke out against the Scientologists' misappropriation of his ideas.

[durutti]

370. But but but...

There is a wealth of evidence that learning and experience produce changes in the brain.

[miss_kitty]

387. And this applies to the Yates woman how?

:shrug:

[Susang]

336. Yikes, you're a Libertarian, aren't you?

Why don't you explain exactly where this fits into this discussion, hmmm?

~snip~
Szasz further believes that anyone brought to trial for a criminal offense should be allowed to stand trial instead of, as sometimes happens, being submitted to a pretrial psychiatric examination and then being committed to a mental institution. In fact, he would have the plea of insanity abolished. Nor does he accept dangerousness to oneself as a legitimate basis for institutionalization. He writes: "In a free society, a person must have the right to injure or kill himself." As for dangerousness to others, Schur notes that Szasz expounds on those not incarcerated who are equally as dangerous to others, and cites drunken drivers as one example. Schur writes: "A person's 'dangerousness' becomes a matter for legitimate public control, Szasz argues, only when he actually commits a dangerous act. Then he can be dealt with in accordance with regular criminal law."

http://www.ftrbooks.net/psych/bios/thomas_szasz.htm

[durutti]

375. Not at all.

What kind of Libertarian would have a Marx avatar?

[Susang]

379. You tell me

You posted the Libertarian-heavy link, not me. Or didn't you realize? :eyes:

Perhaps you're a Scientologist?

[durutti]

403. LOL

I agree with Szasz in some respects and not in others on this issue. I agree with almost none of his political views.

In any case, referencing the works of someone who happens to hold a certain political view doesn't necessarily mean one has agree with that view in its entirety. Some DUers have posted things from The American Conservative -- but that doesn't necessarily make them paleoconservatives.

And I am most certainly not a Scientologist.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

310. "Not believe in mental illness"?

Uh, you've never been around any mentally ill people, have you?

My church in Portland hosted a non-sectarian social club for mentally ill people living in the community, not all of whom were fully stabilized. Believe me, it goes beyond mere eccentricity!

[arwalden]

306. So She Gets To Suffer For The REST Of Her Life

instead of a shortened life. --- Once she's been killed, then she ceases to care. Dead people don't care about anything, they are dead! So if someone really wants her punishment to be worth anything, she must be alive to be punished.

[miss_kitty]

313. she was on suicide watch up until last month

she is truly ill.

[LisaL]

348. She was not facing the DEATH PENALTY.

She didn't get off the death penalty because she was sentenced to life in prison, and not the death penalty. She was not locked up in a cell either. She was getting treatment in a mental award of prison. To me, it seemed like a perfect arrangement. What is going to happen to her now? If she gets out, where will she even go, her husband divorced her? But hey, maybe they will re-marry, I guess there still could be more little Yates on the way.
:eyes:

[TankLV]

314. I don't believe in the "death penalty".

Now, personally, if someone or even one of my pets died a horrible death by the hands of some cretin, I'd be screaming for their head and torture, etc. - but I'd also be relying on calmer and more reasonable persons to be in charge and to prevent me from acting out my rage and my emotions.

Just because someone is in the middle of "it" and would irrationally want to seek revenge, hopefully society has things in place to temper such actions.

I can understand and even empathize with those who harbor such emotions, but I can also see presently that that is not generally the better action society should take.

And when I mention "life imprisonment" it meand simply that - no parole EVER - no getting off on anything other than irrefutable solid evidence, no "plea barganing".

[Bouncy Ball]

322. Um, first of all

I am totally against the death penalty in ALL cases. If that isn't cruel and unusual punishment, then damn, I don't know what is, and we have an AMENDMENT to the Constitution against that.

Secondly, she was and is SEVERELY mentally ill.

My God, wouldn't you HAVE to be to do something like that? Think about it! That woman needs to be in a high security (because I think she's a danger to herself) PSYCHIATRIC FACILITY.

Besides, one of the chief expert witnesses for the prosecution said all kinds of stuff he shouldn't have on the stand.

You suggest we just throw out all judicial procedure because you want her to be killed?

[Maddy McCall]

335. You must know very little about this case.

Her husband didn't "take up for her." He fucking made her a prisoner of her own home and kept on impregnating her EVEN AFTER HER DOCTOR TOLD HIM THAT MORE CHILDREN WOULD SEND HER OVER THE EDGE.

HE'S THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE IN PRISON. SHE SHOULD BE IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION.

[LisaL]

339. She was not facing a death penalty.

She had a sentense of life in prison, not a death penalty. She was in a mental ward of prison where she spend her time tending a flower garden. Now, WTF was wrong with that?

[Hippo_Tron]

355. And killing her solves what?

The criminal justice system is about justice, not vengence. The woman will be convicted and will be brought to justice by being thrown in prison for the rest of her life. She should NOT however, be slaughtered because a bunch of emotional people want her to be killed as revenge for killing her kids. Sentences should not be decided by the people, by the media, and by the victims' families. They should be decided by indifferent third party judges who seek justice to bring convicted peoples to justice, not to seek revenge.

[LisaL]

359. Nobody was going to kill her. She was not sentenced to death.

[Hippo_Tron]

364. I'm aware of that, the original poster was advocating her execution...

Though.

[Zen Democrat]

386. Andrea Yates was given the death penalty. And it's just a new trial.

[Bridget Burke]

391. She was NOT given the death penalty.

Only life in prison--when she should have been sent to a mental care facility.

[LisaL]

396. She is in a mental award of prison, she is being treated.

Her lawyer on TV was just saying they are not going to ask for her release while she awaits a new trial because she is being treated by mental care professionals. So, WTF is wrong with you people? You think she should be in a mental hospital-she already is there, and with her being convicted, she wasn't getting out of there. While now, there is a decent chance she will be let out -is that what you want?

[RUDUing2]

400. no she isn't in a mental hospital..she is recieving treatment while in

prison..not the same thing...

the treatment of the mentally ill prisoner, esp in Texas..is *inadequate* to say the least..

If she had been acquitted she could have..no would have by court order..been placed in a mental institution and have recieved proper treatment..instead she was sent to prison and is recieving minimal treatment and counseling..

[LisaL]

402. It's a load of bull.

She is receiving mental health treatment right there in prison.
Her freaking lawyer said he is not going to be asking for her release while she awaits her new trial because she is being treated right there in prison. Inadequate? You gotta be kidding me. With mental health system being the way it is, who do you think is getting adequate treatment? She has it good right where she is.
:eyes:

[RUDUing2]

414. you think the treatment of mentally ill prisoners is adequate?

you realize that Texas is under federal oversight (Ruiz lawsuit) because their facilities are so bad in this area..

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/drownings/1455663
controversies still swirling around the treatment of thousands of mentally ill inmates who are held indefinitely in isolated and punitive administrative segregation units. Those cells are reserved for gang members, escape risks and what TDCJ's Johnson calls prisoners who "act out" violently. Perhaps some are displaying symptoms of their mental illness. Perhaps not.

U.S. District Judge William Wayne Justice's order in August, extending the Ruiz case for its final year, called the isolated units -- prisons within the prisons -- "virtual incubators of psychosis."

Now, pressured by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to end his decades-long jurisdiction, he is expected to let Texas carry out its pledge to fix its own problems.

Meanwhile, Yates remains isolated in her protective custody cell at Skyview for health and safety rather than punitive reasons, Parnham said.

"I think Andrea presents a very complex first. You've got a person who is schizophrenic, suffering from major depressive disorder with a post-partum onset," he said.

Yates' short-term memory remains shot, unable to recall what was said just 15 minutes earlier, he said. Her psychotic episodes and cycling on and off anti-psychotic medications over the years appear to have caused brain dysfunction, dropping her high school IQ score estimated at up to 136 to only 103 now.



****************
read the whole article..very eye opening...and scarey.

[The Zanti Regent]

389. If she was black...

...she'd be on Death row, next in line for the needle in Tex ASS!

[CWebster]

392. My father was a vet, vetswife

He went to Korea, young and gungho- and witnessed senseless murder. His best friend was blown to pieces--standing next to him, and til the day he died, my father carried shrapnel in his back from that explosion. Why is murder in war heroism and not insanity?

My Father was never proud of participating in the bloodbath of war and as a result of the experience spent the rest of his life working against it. He was not proud of being a vet and on his deathbed requested absolutely no military acknowlegement or markers on his grave.

He was against murder; He was not proud of being a vet.

[Malva Zebrina]

395. this is an interesting thread

I read through all the posts with interest. Many of them are quite informative as to the definition of mental illness, psychosis, law, justice, religion,the death penalty, and PPP, PPD and even the posts about cultural definitions of mental illness added some food for thought.

But, I disagree that mental illness is a myth.

After all, we are talking about a case of obvious psychosis that took place in this culture, with the parameters used in this culture. It is no myth, although I think that in more recent times, the definition tends to become blurred and nowadays, people who are merely sad due to some traumatic episode in their lives, think they are manic depressive, or, the newest terminology, bi-polar. Or, for instance, the administration of Ritalin to kids whose behavior is too rambunctious--Ritalin was the first drug used on mentaly ill persons who were confined to a hospital, before any of the newer drugs were developed. There was little else at that time, andnow,in our hyperchondriacle society, we pop little kids a Ritalin with their breakfast. Indeed, we might even be testing all of the little kids for "mental illness"

Having said that, and mindful of the "parties" thrown outside a prison when anyone is being executed, I wonder if the easy attitude toward execution is the result of one's presence being a substanstial and sufficient distance away from it, enough so as
to enable a somewhat sociopathic outlook on the part of the advocate of this form of "justice"

I wonder if those who seek revenge or vengeance, were the one to inject a lethal dose into another human being, up front and personal, if they, indeed would be capable of it, and would do it with revenge in their heart. What then, would we call them?

We train other people to do that,after all,and even those are protected from having to assume any guilt. Promoters seem
mere pompous blatherers on a self righteous stage, safe in the knowledge they can be absolved of guilt.

In those countries that stone people to death, we recoil at the horror of it all, call it barbaric. There is more connection with the human being within when seeing this form of execution, as opposed to the distancing and lack of participation in our system of execution, allowing guilt to be relatively absent.

If this woman, during a hospitalization, was catatonic for two weeks before medication relieved her of that state, this woman is psychotic and will need to take medication for the rest of her life to alleviate her suffering.

I am reminded of the many testimonies of those who, in their lust for revenge upon a person who murdered their loved ones, report that after the execution, they did not feel much different and were still suffering much the same over the loss of their loved one--their vengeance went unsatisfied.

[RUDUing2]

401. another site that gives more info..including that the hallucinations

first started after the birth of her 1st child..

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/yate-m16.shtml

[CountAllVotes]

404. well she's off the hook for the death penalty

not that life in prison it such a hot option IMO. I wonder if they'll let her out soon besides?

[Bridget Burke]

405. She never got the death penalty.

It's a very long story.

[CountAllVotes]

407. I must have been confused

by the "fair and balanced media" ...

Thanks for the correction.

In any event, she is ONE SICK WOMAN!

:kick:

[liberalhistorian]

406. Vetwife, as a mother

I certainly understand where you are coming from. I disagree with you, as I have always been staunchly anti-death-penalty (and would killing her REALLY bring her kids back? As her mother and brother said, her family has suffered enough), but I'm not going to jump all over you in knee-jerk fashion like too many people here. I think people who disagree can communicate without resorting to insults and name-calling.

First of all, Yates was very, very mentally ill and should never have been caring for even one child, let alone five. After the second child, her family tried to tell Rusty Yates that but he refused to even listen to them or to see what it was doing to her. When she began demonstrating advanced mental illness, he refused to see the signs or to get help for her. When he finally did, and she was hospitalized a couple of months before the murders, he insisted on checking her out of the hospital before she was ready and against the strong advice and pleas of those treating her.

I look at a picture of her, Rusty and the kids taken at a family outing shortly after that and I see the total emptiness in her eyes, like she wasn't even a person anymore. Rusty Yates bears a large share of the responsiblity as far as I'm concerned, and I hope he has come to realize that. Civilized societies do not imprison or fry the seriously mentall ill, much as too many people want that and see no problem with ridding our society of "such people", they do what they can to treat them. She does not belong in prison, she belongs in a psychiatric facility, as she currently is, I believe (I could be wrong on that).

I suffer from clinical depression myself, and will likely be on anti-depressants for the rest of my life. I don't think anyone who hasn't suffered from that or some other form of mental illness can ever really, truly, understand what it's like, it's pure hell. I will never, ever forget my own experience with post-partum depression, ever. And I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Anyway, that's just my own two cents, as you're entitled to yours.

[Iris]

428. I don't think Rusty Yates believes he shares any responsibility for this

tragedy. He recently filed for divorce.

[raggedcompany]

417. Repeat after me: The death penalty is wrong, in every case. Always.

It doesn't prevent crime. It doesn't cost less money. It doesn't bring back the dead. It doesn't rehabilitate the criminal, or anyone else. The people killed aren't always guilty (or in other words, innocent people are executed!!!!).

But most of all:

Any government which has the power, however obtained, to execute its own citizens is by definition tyrannical. I will never, ever cede sovereignty over myself to government. Never.

[Cobalt Violet]

422. She was doing life, she was not on death row.

The jury never sent her to death row.

[rumpel]

435. I totally agree w her husband. We should have more mental institutions

than prisons.
These things often times creep up on unsuspecting families, but it is still mental illness, severe depression etc.
Contrary to what Bush touts, this country's system has no heart or compassion.