'Braveheart' Becomes Role Model for Christian Men

[Kire]

'Braveheart' Becomes Role Model for Christian Men

Sat Jan 22, 9:22 AM ET
By Nigel Hunt

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Movies like "Braveheart" and "Legends of the Fall" are on the viewing list for men in a growing Christian movement that calls for them to throw off their "nice guy" personas and emulate warriors.


The book which inspired the movement, John Eldredge's "Wild at Heart," has already sold 1.5 million copies in English and been translated into 16 languages, most recently Korean.

Eldredge believes many Christian men have become bored, "really nice guys" and invites them to rediscover passion by viewing their life's mission as having a battle to fight, an adventure to live and a beauty to rescue.

"The modern era has brought up immense conveniences but at what price. The human heart is desperate for something more than a quicker serving of popcorn," Eldredge said in a recent interview.

Eldredge calls on men to be prepared to take risks and rediscover their dreams but does not provide a specific route to find, for example, an adventure to live. Career, marriage and family become heroic quests rather than chains which bind.

He focuses on how men can become less passive and "engage" those around them, particularly their wives and children.

"The guy who sits in front of the television is unengaged. That man is a bad man. They (children) need engagement whether it is playing on the floor with your 1-year-old or tougher games when they are 15 (years old)," he said.

Eldredge said he has been astounded by the response to his book with momentum gathering steadily since the book was published in 2001 by Christian publisher Thomas Nelson.

Men have been flocking to retreats and forming small groups to study it. Some are organized by Eldredge and his team, but many are just informally arranged by readers of the book. These groups have sprung up as far away Kazakhstan and even among tribes along the Amazon River in South America.

"It has become something of a grass-roots wildfire," Eldredge said.
More: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=572&e=1&u=/nm/religion_wildatheart_dc

[7th_Sephiroth]

1. in other news

sone jackass with blue face paint started screaming at me about god and got a 12 gauge shotgun shell firmly planted in his skull

[Elidor]

2. Jesus Henry Christ, what stupidity.

Ignorant fuckers deserve everything they get.

[aquart]

9. They're terrified to die.

And they will.

[nolabels]

61. Something to think about?

I love ironic paradox :D

[Swamp Rat]

62. Me too!

:D

[nolabels]

65. Kind of reminds me of the Blue Meanies

Paul: "The first thing when we heard people were going to do a cartoon...have a man, who sailed to sea, and went to the land of submarines. Sounds like a pretty good story. Go down under the water, see all these things, meet all the people that live there. But we were into kind of psychedelic stuff with Pepper and those kind of things, so they wanted more of that kind of stuff. So it was up to them, anyway, so we went along with that. And they had all the Sea of Holes and all that stuff, which I think, seeing it now, is pretty good. You know, it's quite interesting, really..."

George: "Yeah, I like the film. I think it's a classic film. I'm not sure why we never did our own voices, but probably the actors probably did it better anyway. You know, 'cause you needed to be more cartoon-like and our voices were pretty cartoon-like anyway, but, you know, the exaggeration that you've got with the other actors voices, I think it suits it...."

Paul: (in an exaggerated Liverpool accent) "Well that's where all that stuff came from, you know, that sort of terrible fake Liverpool accent..."

Ringo: "The thing with that film that still blows me away is that, like the first year it was out, I had all these kids come up to me saying, "Why did you press the button?" You know, 'cause I press that button and get shot out. Kids from all over the bloody world were shoutin at me, "Why did you press the button?!?"

George: "But that film does go for every generation. Every 3, 4 year old goes through Yellow Submarine...
(snip)

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ms538596/ys.html

[Swamp Rat]

67. Funny you mention this.

I listen to the Beatles all the time, especially when I work on these pics. Sometimes I think it affects my work. :D

[MattBaggins]

55. Harold son, it's Harold

our Father
who art in Heaven
Harold is thy name

[Kerrytravelers]

3. I am so glad my husband doesn't buy into this kind of bull.

"Jim Chase, an advertising copywriter from La Crescenta, California, has had a replica of the sword actor Mel Gibson used when he played legendary Scottish warrior William Wallace in "Braveheart" hanging above his desk since attending a Wild at Heart retreat with 350 other men last year."

So, now these angry fundamentalists have swords. It really is a "Crusade" as * declared.



Men have been flocking to retreats and forming small groups to study it. Some are organized by Eldredge and his team, but many are just informally arranged by readers of the book. These groups have sprung up as far away Kazakhstan and even among tribes along the Amazon River in South America.


How much do you want to bet there are missionaries forcing the people of South American and Kazakhstan into this Mel-Gibson-American-Male-Nutcase-Hero-Machimso bull?




I'll happily take my husband, who gets mad over the abuse of human dignity and drives groups all over the LA area in protests against * and this bloodthirsty adminstration, who demonstrates for human rights, gay rights, is a feminist and pro-choice. At 6'1 and 220, he's no Ah-nald "girly man", but he's more man than any of these knuckle-heads worshipping Mel Gibson.

[htuttle]

26. The sword is a tin wall hanger, completely blunt on the edges

...And the handle will break off if you hit anything with it.

[yardwork]

27. LOL! I mentioned this article to my husband last night

Me: Do you want to be a Christian warrior he-man.

He: No.

[oasis]

4. Fuck Braveheart, I wanna be a badass cowboy like my president.

:bounce:

[elehhhhna]

17. So your movie would be...? Shane? We could have some fun with this one.

[oasis]

37. "Come back Shane, come back, your Texas Air National Guard service

has not yet been completed."

And so Shane rides off into the sunset, not to be seen again until after the Vietnam War.
:nuke:

[cyanluna]

5. How ironic, given that William Wallace was all about "Freedom!"

This is just one more PromiseKeepers, Million Man March, Iron John meets Fire and Brimstone bunch of blatherous yapping from the conniving sect of assholes who want to fuck with people's minds in order to better *control* them.

The snippet lost me when he said "That man is a bad man." How presumptuous and broad-brushed. I don't allow the word "bad" in my home; I don't like it. And this fuckwit can just flop it out there like nobody's business...make a judgment like that... Oh does it make my blood boil!

Oh yes. We need warriors, all right. But it's not about a religious revolution. Not about that at all.

[Kire]

12. sure, he's a "bad man" for watching TV, but...

...how else is he going to watch "Braveheart" and "Legends of the Fall"?

And didn't Brad Pitt smoke a bong in the latter film? I thought it was when he was on the boat.

[yardwork]

28. Brad Pitt had sex with his brother's fiance and broke his heart

I got dragged to see that movie - yuck. But it's useful to know the plot now. There is nothing remotely admirable about any of the characters in "After the Fall." It's based on a short story that was originally published in Playboy.

[soleft]

49. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[newyawker99]

34. Hi cyanluna!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[enki23]

6. leave it to christians

to look to hollywood for their role models.

[The Traveler]

7. Ok boys

The so called "warrior movement" is old news in the so called "men's movement". Good relevant books on the subject (I might have some of the references a little off ... this is off the top of the head)

"Fire in the Belly" -- Sam Keane
"The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart" -- poetry compilation Robert Bly
"The Awakened Warrior" -- a collection of essays

and my personal favorite

"The Art of Jheet Koon Do" -- Bruce Lee

for the best introduction to Buddhism and martial arts I have ever encountered.

Braveheart is a story of a man who chose to lay it all on the line for the freedom of common people, his people. Why, oh why, does that bother so many people around here? Bush reminds me so much of Longshanks. We may soon face our own choice ... to bow before our masters, run to another land, or bleed for what we believe.

The problem is, Gentle Reader, that most people simply aren't the warrior type ... no matter how many retreats they go to or fake swords they buy. It's not a matter of bravery. The courage of a firefighter is quite different from the courage of a warrior, though by no means less valuable. Running into a burning building requires something a bit different from facing a dozen screaming well armed men whose one thought is to kill you before you kill them.

Keep that in mind. Most of us, really, are clerks and shop keepers. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is, actually, a good thing.

Wildness has its own virtue. Heh. I guess that's why I'm on my fourth marriage, eh? Wildness can be a pain in the ass of the people you love. "Legends of the Fall" is cool and all, but they need to check out "A River Runs Through It". There is, you see, a downside to this wildness thing.

But if you feel too little of it, of the wildness of your own heart, then you are indeed a boring drone and probably useless to the hearts of any around you.

My manifesto consists of a simple statement and a fragment of poetry (not my own), and a quote from Malcom X.

1) In the mirrors of the many judgements, my hands are the color of blood. But don't expect me to apologize, repent, or let my hands hang useless the next time I see the strong abuse the weak.

2) A fragment of poetry:

Though you think sweet, yonder in your church, the gentle talk of your students, sweeter I think the splendid talking the wolves make in Glen mBolcain.

Though you like the fat and meat which are eaten in the drinking halls, I like better to eat a head of clear water-cress in a place without sorrow.

3) Malcom X: "No one will give you your freedom and dignity. If you are a man, you will take it."

No offense folks, but I think we in the Democratic Party ... and especially in the DNC and DLC ... need to cowboy up a bit. Malcom knew what he was talking about, and so did Martin. The freedom and dignity of everyone we know is at stake. Are you willing to bleed, if that must needs be?

[Kerrytravelers]

10. I'm willing to bleed baby...

... but this false bravado by these pathetic ding-dongs is just silly. They are so afraid of being what Ah-nald called "girley men" that they go over the top making sure that none of us ever doubt their masculinity.

Theyare more interested in protraying some persona, and waste time with this nonsense than actually showing what real men should be doing. Instead of trying to idolize Mel Gibson, they should been looking at reality and what is really going on around here.

I get your drift, but I really cringe at the thught of "cowboying up." Yuck. That'll make my husband more like *, and that just won't do it for me. Next thing you know, he'll start mispronouncating words and saying "liberty" and "freedom" in every sentence. :crazy:

[The Traveler]

21. I hear ya

And while the (not at all new) "warriorship" riff can do some positive things for a man's psyche, the simple fact of the matter is most of these guys will never have a clue about what it really means.

Which, I submit, is actually OK. Who wants a "warrior society"? I can't recommend it.

Flip side of the coin .... this fascist gorilla is getting heavy. As you say ... look at reality and what is really going on around here. At some point, if this goes on, each of us is going to have to make some really tough choices.

And, BTW, I don't think your husband suffers from a shortage of inner cowboy. Sounds to me like he is already well involved, and I doubt seriously he will ever be like Bush. Now if only the DNC and DLC were more like that ....

As for Bush being a cowboy ... yeah, right. The wimp couldn't survive a day hangin' out with my crowd. No. He's more like the guy with the fake Braveheart broadsword. A fake sword for a fake warrior.

[Kerrytravelers]

31. Amen to you, Traveler!

[yardwork]

29. The original text is "Iron John" by Robert Bly

but his point was a lot more subtle than the media has portrayed the "men's movement."

Bly makes some good points in "Iron John," but I doubt he would have seen W as a good role model.

[MattBaggins]

56. Refresh my memory

I remember a female co-worker from Indonesia was reading that book at work and I thumbed through it a few times. All I remember was thinking that it was one of the dumbest bits of senseless pseudo-jargon I had the mis pleasure of reading. Just a bunch of comparisons of men to mythical characters with not one iota of explanation to what any of it meant to real world existence. Was there something to that book I missed?

[yardwork]

60. LOL! It's been too long since I read it for me to defend it!

It came out more than fifteen years ago, and is considered the seminal (sorry - pun) text for the "men's movement."

I like poets and I like Robert Bly's poetry ok. I thought he made some good points about our human need to get back to nature.

The main point I agreed with is one he made about fathers (and mothers) being separate from their children in their work. In older cultures, people worked side-by-side with their children. Young people went through ritual initiations that welcomed them into their family and community as adults, and by that time the adolescents knew exactly what was expected of them as adults. In modern cultures, we "go off to work." We go away and work away from our children, who are not included in our work, and don't get to learn about its importance. We are isolated from one another. Teenagers, who should be entering the adult world, occupy a place of limbo in our culture. Parents, who should be teaching and sharing their work with their families, work in isolation from the rest of their families. I thought these were all very good points.

The solution is far less clear. Banging drums naked in the woods once a month isn't going to make much of a difference, and neither is reverting to the 1950s marriage model. In fact, Bly pointed out that it was after WWII, when everyone moved off farms, that the problem began!

[okieinpain]

57. all this means is they want those who are involved to start calling

others who are not in church, sissies, and heathens. this is one of the things that turns me off about church, they want everyone to be like them, instead of just living their life.

it becomes more or less a pyramid scheme.

[sweetheart]

8. They must only look at the film's cover

Braveheart begins with the story of the english occupation of scotland
and the brutal murders of civilians who dare sympathize or oppose war
crimes by the occupying forces.

I wonder what they think they're learning from braveheart?

[aquart]

11. Obviously they ignore the part

that teaches you not to invade someone else's country.

[Enraged_Ape]

64. And I really wish they would reenact....

the fifteen minutes of torture and drawing-and-quartering at the end. Let's see how far their devotion to this movie REALLY takes them.

[Kire]

13. I think they're just shilling for Mel Gibson.

what else could it be?

[MissMarple]

14. So....who wants to play Edward?

:evilgrin:

[KG]

15. what frightend little men these are, afraid someone

will laugh at their skinny arms, paunchy waistlines and small flaccid penises.

pitiful.

[ET Awful]

16. Don't they know that Braveheart was a terrorist insurgent against

the occupying forces in Scottland?

[elehhhhna]

18. ... wasn't the ruling politician allowed to sleep w/ B-Hearts' wife?

Didn't BHeart also cuckold the King?

Nice guy.

[ET Awful]

20. You forgot to mention that Braveheart was banging the ruler's

daughter-in-law who was French :). Gotta promote those family values.

Also, the ruler was allowed to nail Braveheart's wife, but didn't, he slit her throat instead. She was part of the collateral damage.

[elehhhhna]

36. perhaps she failed to slow down enough at the checkpoint?

[ohio_liberal]

23. Bah!

There is no historical evidence that the Princess and William Wallace ever met or interacted. Princess Isabella didn't marry Edward until three years after Wallace's death. I guess they just needed a love interest for Mel Gibson in that movie.

[ET Awful]

43. We're talking about Republicans, what does historical accuracy have to do

with anything? :)

[Lorien]

44. No, he slept with another man's wife

it was known as the law of "first night"; if a Scottish virgin married, an English lord could sleep with her on her wedding night. The goal was to breed the Scottish out of existence. :puke:

[BiggJawn]

19. "Iron John" meets "Promisekeepers"...

Guess they needed to come up with something for little churchy boys who aren't comfortable being in a sweat lodge with a naked Gay guy...
I knew a lot of Gay men who are "into" the Men's Movement.

I dropped out because the intensity of the "evangelizing" to get all of us to join the "New Warriors Network" smacked of the Fundamentalism issues I was struggling with at that time. Our local lodge gatherings devolved into recruitment programs for the NWN.

Don't tell me something is the "One True Path" if you want me to go there.

Yeah, this is for Promisekeepers who want to know the guy they're beating drums with is a tight-assed repressed straight guy just like them.

[dbt]

22. Fine. Let them BECOME warriors.

I would be happy to meet with the survivors. They will have some radically different opinions from the ones they now hold. Ask a Viet Nam veteran about being a warrior!

:freak:
dbt

(Then, THANK that Vet for serving!)

[Crankie Avalon]

24. Hmmmmmm...

"Clark said Eldredge had tapped into an angst among middle-aged white men who are dissatisfied with their lives and for whom depression had become a very serious problem...the movement would be judged based on the impact it has on family life."

I'm picturing O'Reilly viewers and Limbaugh listeners thinking they're warriors for watching a couple of war movies and going on to raise the next generation of draft-dodging chickenhawks.

[noonwitch]

25. I guess they're forgetting the way "Braveheart" ended

I'm sure all christian fundie men want to be tortured and disemboweled infront of a crowd of cheering idiots.

Or maybe they do-it would explain a great deal, psychologically.

[cap]

30. concern that this can become the breeding ground for RW thugs...

when will these guys start acting on their warrior talk? And who will become their targets.

[chicagojoe]

48. They will be MY target if they ever act on it in my area.

There really are those who want an army of Christian Soldiers.
If ANY morons ever try this, and they get anywhere near my house, I hope they bring enough body bags for themselves, because I will create a need for them. I would attack a fellow American who tried to harm me with as much vigor as I would attack a foreign invader.

[Love Bug]

32. If they want to be warriors,

why don't they just join the Marines and go to Iraq? But no, they just want to play-act like a bunch of wanna-bes who'll never have to actually risk anything. Posers.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Or if they just want to play-act, let them join the SCA....

They could bash each other with bamboo weapons every weekend & get together for a beer afterwards.

However, most SCA'ers I've met show some intelligence & humor....

[Moderator]

33. Kire

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.


DU Moderator

[Kire]

58. sorry

too late to edit it now

[Ron Green]

38. The courage of a warrior means simply to find and face your own fear....

and do the right thing (turn off the TV, pay attention to your children, tackle the thousand boring tasks that face you every day.) The drum-beating and face-painting, with "a beauty to rescue," seems to be just a way to market the process of being an adult, just as religion is a way to market the process of self-discovery.

[rniel]

39. I liked braveheart

Saw it as an liberal movie really. The movie is about of abuse of power of those at the top. The rich and powerful abusing poor people until they can't take it anymore and fight back.

Kinda the same theme as the american revolution, french revolution and what's going on in this country right now.

Also if you put conservative people in that movie they were the scottish kings and landowners who were going to side with the king in exchange for more land and wealth.

[bkcc]

40. I know I'm probably the only person that thinks this...

but "Braveheart" sucked.
Badly.

Using a movie like that as a basis for how you live your life is like modeling your marriage after "Joanie Loves Chachi."

[ohio_liberal]

41. I didn't care for it

Too many historical inaccuracies.

[Stirk]

42. Aren't they just advocating for a more involved, passionate life?

I don't see the problem in that. Seems like a response to the deadened, apathetic, defeated TV culture most people in the US live in. They spend half the day at a job they hate, then spend the other half avoiding their families by watching football on TV. That is a problem.

I do that kind of thing all the time, myself- I think most of us do. When you're confronted with some laborious task or an intimidating problem, it can be helpful to view it as a challenge rather than an obstacle.

[soleft]

50. Wonderful advise for living reserved exclusively for Christian men

That seems to be the problem

[DrGonzoLives]

45. Good, does that mean I can get medieval on their asses?

n/t

[Raster]

46. Here's a thought, instead of advocating "warriorism", why not

advocate making a difference, and not just a difference for your little sect. Make a difference in your world. Do the REAL Christian thing and feed the hungry, help the needy, comfort the poor and suffering. Ditch the faux-warrior bullshit and TRULY do what Christ asked you to. I realize that won't sell any books, or sell out stadiums or make your waive your hands in the air as you faux swoon with the convenient holy spirit. But you know, it may bring you closer to Christ, at least that's what he said.

[Beware the Beast Man]

47. Good, then they'll have no problem fighting this war they support.

They want "engagement"? Plunk them in an unarmed humvee out in the middle of Iraq for a few months.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. What I see in right wing "men's movements" that scares me

is the equation of masculinity with violence, the whole "real men are mean and dumb" nonsense.

I know plenty of men who know how to be masculine without being macho, without feeling as if they have to be spoiling for a fight all the time or bossing someone else around.

[mr blur]

63. Isn't the whole of the American Administration

just a "right wing men's movement"?

[merh]

52. Wasn't Braveheart about a man and his fellow villagers that

fought against the occupying warlords in a quest to be free from their tryanny, taxation and intrusion into their way of life? I mean don't they see the irony in emulating him? Isn't Braveheart about insurgents or terrorists that fought against those who occupied their lands?

[Pawel K]

53. Yes, 15 year olds love to play with their parents

:eyes:

[theboss]

54. It strikes me as no dumber than any other self-help plan

I think there is probably some truth in the notion that we've become too passive as people and have lost a lot of the connections of family and community as a result. I don't think we need to become William Wallace though to get that back.

[dansolo]

59. If they really want to be warriors

Why aren't they signing up for the armed services?

[Toots]

66. Wasn't it Jesus who said "pound your swords into plows"

I doubt very seriously Jesus ever would have agreed with any of this but one thing to remember is "Live by the sword, Die by the sword" and as the song says about dying time...."Let the time be near"

[MsTryska]

68. well on the bright side...Braveheart was all about the

dirt poor sod farmers banding together against the rich elitists.

[tjwash]

69. Factually though this is a common historical myth.

Wallace was born a noble, not a scruffy tribesman, and later became a knight. Although they were a little poorer as noble families went, they were still infinitely more privileged than the commoners of the day.

That's why his trial and execution were detailed in the court records of the day and they still exist.