pics from Iraq: man arrested & executed WITHOUT a trial

[mopaul]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7802.htm

[izzie]

1. Nice work Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not think the SS could have done better.

[mike_c]

10. Bush did not pull the trigger....

He's responsible for the circumstances, but these troops did the murder, it that's what it was (and the photos certainly make it look so).

[Randers]

144. He might as well have.

How many triggers did Hitler pull?

[Osamasux]

2. He looked like he was trying to escape.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. There is no indication of that based on the pictures

and even if he was, does that warrant being killed in cold blood?

Once the prisoner is under control, which he obviously was in the first picture, killing him after that point is called murder.

[Osamasux]

108. Let me introduce you to a new word. Meet 'Sarcasm'.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

125. Ah, I think

I turned off my sense of humor looking at those pics.

Sometimes it's hard to hear the sarcasm behind the words on the page.

Thanks

[kuozzman]

116. lol

[interupt]

4. Something looks wrong with that photo at the top

Looking really carefully. There is no shadow cast by the man in black. in relation to the other shadows.

[mopaul]

5. what are you implying if I may ask?

looks legit to me.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. The sun is high, and slightly behind the camera

The subject's shadow will be small and directly behind him (i.e. away from the camera) on the ground. You can't see the subject's shadow because the subject is directly in the way.

[interupt]

7. I was just following the shadow lines of the buildings

From what you say, I can agree reluctantly the subject is blocking his shadow. Just at a glance it looked slightly Photoshopped.

I say reluctantly, because I cannot for the life of me believe that this would be done in front of a camera, and there have been a lot of bogus stuff around the net.

[alexisfree]

13. they are Real pictures

look it up in photoshop as a negative image....

[interupt]

18. Thanks for the update.

I was hoping for a photoshopper to check it out since Im hopeless with image apps.

The sequence is not entirely conclusive, but hey...Just staggers me that this would happen in front of a photographer.

[oasis]

132. these guys are not camera shy because these are trophy photos.

[Lerkfish]

16. pshaw! you're telling me these photos are faked?

Some people will go so far to deny the truth they bend themselves into pretzels.

[interupt]

19. Sorry? are you mocking me for questioning something?

[Lerkfish]

20. sorry, I work in photoshop professionally, these were not faked (AFAIK).

I'm more referring to first assumption they might be faked because there's no way our soldiers would do something like that....
That seems an odd assumption considering we have the abu ghraib photos, the video of the handcuffed wounded man executed in the mosque, and countless eyewitness accounts of just that type of behavior.

I think its just odd that the first reaction to this information is that it must be false...and the explanations or "questions" you used to assail its credibility were inadequate to do so.

Nothing personal meant, apologize for the offense.

[Comicstripper]

96. What are you talking about?

Just because it wasn't photoshopped doesn't mean the pictures and the story surrounding them are legit. Ever been to snopes.com? They discredit all kinds of things just like this. Many times the photographs are real, but the circumstances are not.
I'm not saying this particular instance is, but it's natural and a good thing to question the legitimacy of something this extreme with nothing to back it up.

[Lerkfish]

103. If you'll note... the post I was referring to was questioning the photos

based on thinking the shadows didn't match...which implies photoshopping the image.

On that facet of the issue, I was offering my professional expertise.

Also on that facet, I didn't see that as a valid reason to discount the apparent content.

so, the question goes back to your court: what are you talking about?

and yes, I've been to snopes.com. Thanks for asking.

[Comicstripper]

110. Sorry

"I think its just odd that the first reaction to this information is that it must be false...and the explanations or "questions" you used to assail its credibility were inadequate to do so."

I was responding to that.
Sorry. I'm not trying to be rude.

[Lerkfish]

149. sorry myself, I'm not explaining myself adequately...

I meant the issue of the shadows was not an adequate tool to debunk the sequence. In retrospect, I was being overly flippant, but my point was that there might be OTHER things that disprove what the sequence implies, but that method was not going to do it, IMHO.
Further, I felt that knowing what we already know about the situation, makes me believe the sequence as plausible on the face of it.

However, you make a valid point that questioning things is equally valid. so...apologies all around.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

111. This is the first 20 or so lines derived from the third photo with a hex

editor... I don't see anything about Photoshop in here... I could be wrong, but I don't see anything that resembles a reference to Photoshop.....


0000:0000 ff d8 ff e0 00 10 4a 46 49 46 00 01 00 01 00 b4 ÿØÿà..JFIF.....´
0000:0010 00 b4 00 00 ff fe 00 1f 4c 45 41 44 20 54 65 63 .´..ÿþ..LEAD Tec
0000:0020 68 6e 6f 6c 6f 67 69 65 73 20 49 6e 63 2e 20 56 hnologies Inc. V
0000:0030 31 2e 30 31 00 ff db 00 84 00 05 03 03 04 03 03 1.01.ÿÛ.........
0000:0040 05 04 04 04 05 05 05 06 07 0c 08 07 07 07 07 0f ................
0000:0050 0b 0b 09 0c 12 10 13 13 12 10 11 11 14 17 1d 18 ................
0000:0060 14 15 1b 16 11 11 19 22 19 1b 1e 1f 20 21 20 13 .......".... ! .
0000:0070 18 24 26 23 20 26 1d 20 20 1f 01 05 05 05 07 06 .$&# &. .......
0000:0080 07 0f 08 08 0f 1f 15 11 15 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f ................
0000:0090 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f ................
0000:00a0 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f ................
0000:00b0 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f 1f ff c4 01 a2 00 ...........ÿÄ.¢.
0000:00c0 00 01 05 01 01 01 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0000:00d0 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0a 0b 01 00 03 01 ................
0000:00e0 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 02 ................
0000:00f0 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0a 0b 10 00 02 01 03 03 02 ................
0000:0100 04 03 05 05 04 04 00 00 01 7d 01 02 03 00 04 11 .........}......
0000:0110 05 12 21 31 41 06 13 51 61 07 22 71 14 32 81 91 ..!1A..Qa."q.2..
0000:0120 a1 08 23 42 b1 c1 15 52 d1 f0 24 33 62 72 82 09 ¡.#B±Á.RÑð$3br..
0000:0130 0a 16 17 18 19 1a 25 26 27 28 29 2a 34 35 36 37 ......%&'()*4567
0000:0140 38 39 3a 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 4a 53 54 55 56 57 89:CDEFGHIJSTUVW
0000:0150 58 59 5a 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 6a 73 74 75 76 77 XYZcdefghijstuvw
0000:0160 78 79 7a 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 8a 92 93 94 95 96 xyz.............

[gottaB]

113. LEAD --leadtools? An alternative image editing program

http://www.leadtools.com

[HysteryDiagnosis]

115. Good catch... I thought lead was just a program for getting pics out

of cameras.... I mean... don't they make a version for the home user that is primarily for sucking photos out of cameras??? Ya know... the basic tool that comes with a particular camera?? I really am not sure, perhaps you can shed more light on this....

[gottaB]

119. Probably. I don't know.

I use gtkam (frontend for gphoto) for my camera, and gimp for image editing.

Many jpeg images online have a reference to LEAD Technologies in the comment field. I know LEAD has some image manipulating capabilities, because I used a demo version when I had a MSWindows system. That was many years ago. I assume they've added many improvements, but I really don't know.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

120. Uh oh.... check this out....

http://www.leadtools.com/utilities/psplugin/PhotoShop_plug-in.htm

If you're a photo designer or digital artist, you know that digital images can be very large. Wouldn't it be great to save those images smaller but see no image degradation? What about about saving hard drive space or even emailing that 50MB digital creation?!

The LEAD JPEG2000 (J2K and JP2) file format filter plug-ins allows you to load and save (8 bit grayscale and 24 bit color) images in the JPEG2000 file format from within Adobe PhotoShop or Jasc PaintShop Pro. The quality of JPEG2000 compression over the existing JPEG is unbelievable! Now you can preserve image quality while extremely decreasing the size of your images quickly and easily.<<

[Lerkfish]

150. something could have passed through photoshop, but not manipulated.

In other words, there's a difference between someone using photoshop to make a photo web-ready (optimizing the jpg) and someone using photoshop to fake or composite a photo.
In my opinion, the photo in question (where the man is kneeling but appears not to have a shadow, was not altered or faked.
Further, its not really logical to fake THAT shot from the sequence, since it doesn't alter anything in the sequence to do so. If one were to fake the sequence in order to make it appear an execution happened when it didn't, the photo to fake would have been the last in the sequence, not the first.

[alfredo]

41. Save the image to your desktop, open it and zoom in.

The shadows seem consistent. Look by his foot at the white object and the shadow. Look at the shadow under his leg.

[mike_c]

8. arms remain bound in last photo...

...indicating that he was unlikely to have posed any threat. I hope these photos put those bastards in Levinworth for life. The guy on the right in the last pic looks utterly relaxed and cold-blooded.

[mopaul]

9. they look like big game hunters on safari

and one g.i. got 3 years for 'murdering' an Iraqi citizen. i thought that's what they were sent over there for.

[meisje]

139. How do you know it was te last photo?

[pocket]

11. these photos say nothing

about the chain of events. Sorry, but I need a lot more info. This could be anything.

[mopaul]

12. anything, like what for instance?

just curious as to what you think might have occured, other than a simple execution?

and why are you suspicious?

[pocket]

14. beats me

I have no way of knowing what is going on in any picture.

I don't think the pictures prove or disprove anything.

[mopaul]

17. maybe they're shown out of sequence, & they revived & released him

maybe he was lying there almost dead, and the good samaritans gave him succor and propped him up against the wall with his hands tied behind him to heal a while. or, maybe they didn't show the fourth photo, where they let him go home.

[Sterling]

99. ROFLMAO, too funny best post in the thread!!!!!!!!

If it was not so serious these people would be hilarious.

[Karenina]

23. Kinda hard to accept at face-value, eh?

eom

[MattBaggins]

25. As a veteran of the first gulf war

I have to ask you. Man is clearly bound in all three pictures. Please explain to me how someone dies while bound and not have it be murder.

[TX-RAT]

26. Where in the link does it say he's dead?

Hell their trying to figure out what happen.

[alexisfree]

15. can be that he had the WMD!!

or he was what?.....looks like he is asleep to you??

[Ms. Clio]

28. Yeah, let me post some photos from Auschwitz

They say nothing about the "chain of events," either.

[Comicstripper]

98. EXCEPT AUSCHWITZ HAD WITNESSES AND DOCUMENTATION

This has neither.
Stop attacking people for being skeptical.

[Ms. Clio]

107. Don't tell me what to do or say

Auschwitz has pictures and documentation NOW, sixty years after the fact.

Before the war ended, the camps were dismissed by many as rumors.

There will be more than enough pictures and documentation of this and other atrocities sixty years from now, too.

[Comicstripper]

109. Yes

And until THEN, we don't assume the worst. One low-quality website and some gruesome but context-less pictures are not enough to make the kind of conclusions you're making. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you shouldn't attack someone for being skeptical.

[Ms. Clio]

126. I've been here for almost 4 years, and I have noticed a certain pattern

to the kind of "skeptics" who suddenly come out of the woodwork whenever photos or information like this is presented. It happened with the Abu Ghraib photos, and it happened with the photo of the Marine shooting a wounded prisoner, and just recently, with the photos of the Iraqi girl covered with her parents blood.

What is really interesting that those same "skeptics" are often the first to accept at face value images like the Nick Berg beheading video, or the "fat Osama" video.

[Nederland]

134. Yup

And it also happened when Saddam's sons were killed and the CBS memoes came out. Skepticism is healthly.

[Ms. Clio]

136. Deliberate disinformation and attempts to divert conversations are not

healthy at all. This place is heavily trolled by rightwing disruptors who can't stand to read anything resembling the truth about this war.

(Please note that I am in no way referring to you specifically with that comment).

And where was all that "healthy skepticism" when it came to WMDs, I wonder? Maybe we can ask Judith Miller or the entire Faux News team about their enthusiasm for healthy skepticism.

[Nederland]

141. Deliberate disinformation?

The only people that are providing "deliberate disinformation" with regard to these photos are those that claim that know what happened merely by looking at them. They are claiming to know things that are inherently unknowable. That is "deliberate disinformation", and you are one of the ones doing it.

[Ms. Clio]

142. There is nothing "Inherently unknowable" about those photos

Based on the sequence of events, based on the bound arms and lifeless posture of that person, based on the relaxed posture (not pointing their guns) and even smiles of one of the soldiers, based on the course of this war over the past two years, based on previous situations in which photos like this turned out to be exactly what they looked like, and my own common sense, certain conclusions can be drawn.

You are perfectly free to draw other conclusions--I am never surprised when you do.

[Nederland]

153. And what conclusion would those be?

That the man was executed?

[Ms. Clio]

154. He doesn't look alive to me in that photo

If you think he is safe with his family right now, praising those kind American soldiers who found him lying in the rubble with his arms bound, and helped him up, and sent him on his merry way, that's your prerogative.

[Comicstripper]

164. I'm a right-wing troll for questioning the context of a picture?

One with NO context?
Excuse me. I have to go club some baby seals and arrest some black people...
And for the record, I had "health skepticism" when it came to WMDs. I attended three major protests in DC saying just that. I pride myself in being a skeptic. Accepting things at face value isn't healthy. I'm not saying the pictures are misleading. I'm saying that without any evidence it's impossible to draw accurate conclusions.

[Ms. Clio]

165. Good heavens, who said I was talking about you?

I wasn't.

But I'm glad you had the same skepticism about WMDs.

[meisje]

31. This shows you people will believe anything as long as it's bad for the US

These three photos prove very little! What happened in between the photos? Where is the blood while he is being dragged??? How do you know he was executed????

[mopaul]

32. another damn conspiracy theory that makes us all look bad

or somethin' like that

[Tinoire]

121. "You people"? Is that you Ross?

Just out of curiousity. Which candidate did you support in the primaries?

[TX-RAT]

21. How do we know he's dead?

[Ms. Clio]

27. Would it change anything about that sequence of events if he wasn't?

[TX-RAT]

29. If he was confirmed dead or assassinated

Why would the web site be asking for info on what happen?

[Ms. Clio]

33. Regardless of whether he is currently alive (extremely unlikely) or dead

That series of photos strongly indicates that he was bound, dragged over the rubble, and shot in cold blood.

Would it be any less criminal if by some miracle he managed to survive?

[TX-RAT]

34. They indicate he was bound and dragged

Nowhere do they indicate he was shot or harmed in any way.

[Ms. Clio]

35. There is clearly blood dripping down his face as he lies on the ground

Do you seriously believe that person is alive and well right now, just going on about his life?

[TX-RAT]

38. Not that i can see.

As i said before, even the website posting these picture didn't know what was going on.

(Do you seriously believe that person is alive and well right now, just going on about his life?)
Don't have a clue.
And neither do you.

[Ms. Clio]

40. Yeah, I do have a clue

That's what these pictures provide, plenty of clues. What are those two dark streaks running from his hairline down over his face? Look at the whole posture of the body, it is unnaturally twisted and completely lifeless. If he is just unconscious, then how did he get that way? Surely some "harm" must have occurred in that case.

If he was alive, they would still be pointing their guns at him.

It's amazing the lengths people will go to to rationalize away the obvious.

[Nederland]

49. Not seeing that

Unnaturally twisted and completely lifeless? I don't see that at all. I see a guy being dragged around...

[Ms. Clio]

55. The body, lying on the ground? Look at his legs, look at how his body

is twisted in an opposite direction--that is not a natural position.

That person is either unconscious, or dead.

[Nederland]

65. So you admit

...that he could be unconscious. How do you know that the order of photographs is accurate? How do you know he wasn't unconscious when they found him and then dragged to the location of the first photo?

Answer: you don't. You just automatically assume the worst of our troops because you oppose the war.

[mopaul]

67. and you assume our troops are right, no matter what

sure i oppose the war, and i OFTEN assume the worst of our troops.
remember abu ghraib? ugly shit happens, and something ugly happened here.

[Tacos al Carbon]

69. You're assuming

That Nederland always assumes that the troops are right. There is nothing that he has said here to warrant your assumption. All he has said is that you can't know what happened based on nothing more than those photos. And he's right.

[mopaul]

70. you have the right to ignore your lying eyes

or anything you damn well please. ignore away.

[Tacos al Carbon]

72. Not ignoring

I'm trying to educate you. With little success, it seems, but I'm an obstinate sort and continue to hope that logic may one day prevail over your prejudices.

[mopaul]

78. i think i C what U mean

i'm illogically prejudiced against innocent people being murdered under any circumstances. i can't tell if the man is a so called insurgent or a grocer.

[Ms. Clio]

75. You 're so right--and I can't possibly know what happened

to this little girl either




Those soldiers in the background really just want to help her!

[Tacos al Carbon]

83. Actually, do you know what happened to that little girl?

It's an interesting story. She's living with her husband and children in Canada now. And yeah, the soldiers in the background weren't looking to harm her or any of the children.

[Sterling]

89. No they were not. But her village had just been bombed by US.

That is the story. Those soldiers may not have been trying to kill her but she sure was not running to them for help either.

[Tacos al Carbon]

92. The soldiers in that photo

have zero to do with the children in that photo, despite Clio's implication to the contrary ... she misinterprets an old photo that we know the context of ... and purports to know what's going on in photos that have absolutely no context.

[Ms. Clio]

104. Actually, yes, I did know that

You don't know what the soldiers in the background were looking to do, or what they had just been doing, either.

I'm sure they never harmed or killed any civilians at all because of course that never ever happened in Vietnam except just this one time.

[Nederland]

135. Actually

...from the photo alone you don't have a clue what happened to that little girl. Its only because of other documentation that we know what happened to her. The photo itself, like the three photos in the orginal post, tells precious little.

[Sterling]

79. You have not read many of Neder's posts then.

There is plenty to warrant that assumption.

[Tacos al Carbon]

84. Oh, I've read a few of his

Read a few of yours, too. Made me that much more sympathetic to my local police.

[Sterling]

90. Congrats. Maybe they will let you join their "pig piles"

You must love this place.

[Tacos al Carbon]

94. Oh, this place is OK

Some of the people aren't exactly kosher, but what can be done? As for the police, I help them all I can.

[Kingshakabobo]

128. Are you a junior G man?

I suppose they give you one bullet to carry in your shirt pocket.

[Tacos al Carbon]

157. Nothing junior about me

And I work more with the local police than the feds, though I've had occasion to work with them as well.

[TX-RAT]

159. 21 yrs Sheriff's dept, 8 yrs County judge , here.

Last 8 yrs with So as Sheriff

But what the hell, we probably don't know anything.
Been through hundreds of trials, these pictures mean nothing without a complete investigation.

[Tacos al Carbon]

160. That's exactly right

In a courtroom, these pictures would never even make it before the jury without some kind of authentification and evidence as to context, both of which are completely absent in this thread. Instead, we are left to rely on Ms. Clio (literally) to divine what's going on.

You want to see what happens when people let their prejudices color what they see? Look at the picture in post #39.

[Nederland]

133. No

At this point I'm saying we don't know and anybody who thinks they do is fooling themselves.

[Ms. Clio]

81. I was responding to someone who thought the photo indicated that the man

had not been harmed at all.

The corollary of this is that you must admit that maybe it happened just the way I think it did. How do you know it didn't?

Answer: you don't. You just automatically believe the best is happening in this best of all possible wars because it's the U.S. fighting it.

[Nederland]

138. Yes

I admit that it might have happened the way you say it happened. That's the difference between you an me. I'm willing to reserve judgment until we have some evidence. You seem to be convinced that you know exactly what happened merely by looking at photos, even though that's physically impossible.

[Ms. Clio]

145. I just don't have a sunny optimistic attitude about any of this anymore

Usually the worst possible explanation turns out to be the truth.

This is also not a formal trial, so I feel perfectly justified in making some preliminary judgments, based on the history of this invasion thus far.

However, I am willing to concede that you may be correct, too.

[Sterling]

82. He looks pretty fucking unnaturally twisted and completely lifeless

Maybe you sleep like that but humans don't normally lay that way when they have a choice.

[DrWeird]

36. Why am I suspecting...

that if it were Iraqi insurgents with the guns and a US troop bound and laying, apparently, dead on some rubble that you'd be singing a different tune?

[TX-RAT]

37. suspect anything you choose

Just going by the only evidence available.

[Greenbeard]

22. The only man smiling is the one on the right

These boys are stuck with the consequences of these actions for the rest of their lives.

Were they simply following orders? Had this man been shooting at them only moments before? Does it matter?

Another human has been martyred. How many more of us will have to face the same fate before all this comes to an end?

The world weeps (and I would be willing to bet so did at least one of those soldiers)

Damn this War

[mike_c]

24. yes, it matters....

Killing a bound captive is a violation of the Geneva Conventions, a war crime, and just plain murder. Damn this war indeed.

[Nederland]

30. Link broken (nt)

[Tacos al Carbon]

39. yup ... and this is an Israeli policeman beating up a Palestinian youth

Right? I mean, obviously ...

[Ms. Clio]

42. It's not just one photo, it's a series with the same characters

But of course you know that.

[Tacos al Carbon]

43. I know that

I can also see that there's absolutely no context. Any one of a hundred scenarios can be playing out. We don't even know the chronological order of the photos. Hell, I can't be sure that they're from Iraq, or the last 12 months, for that matter.

How about this: The third photo is first, then the soldiers realize that the guy is only playing dead so they drag him up and cuff him(second photo) and have him kneel against the wall (third photo) until he can be taken away? Just as plausible as the "executed without trial" scenario.

[Ms. Clio]

44. Right, that's why they're all relaxed and one smiling as they stand around

the obviously dead body. Or did they bind the arms of someone they thought was a corpse and then discover he was "faking it?"

If they weren't sure he was dead, they would be pointing their guns at him.

There are really very few truly plausible explanations for these photos.

[Tacos al Carbon]

48. There are plenty of plausible explanations

There is nothing to indicate an "obviously dead" body. If they shot him, why drag him to a new location to do it? What? They didn't want to damage the wall? Like I said, you don't even know whether these are from Iraq or Afghanistan or some other place entirely. You don't know the order in which they were taken. You don't know what happened before, between or after the photos. You certainly don't know that anyone was shot or, if someone was shot, who shot them. Hell, are you even 100% sure that these are American soldiers and not Brits? Or French soldiers in the Ivory Coast?

Here's a scenario (one of many). The soldiers took this guy prisoner. He was yelling and giving away their position. One of them knocked him cold with their rifle butt to make him shut up. Or do you see a gunshot wound in the photo that you'd like to direct me to?

[mopaul]

51. flat earther

willfull ostrich

[Ms. Clio]

54. You know what's really interesting is how certain people had all

kinds of plausible explanations for shooting those wounded Iraqis in the mosque, too.

Are you seriously trying to argue that those are not U.S. soldiers???

LOL!

[Tacos al Carbon]

56. I'm saying that I don't know what happened here

And neither do you.

And exactly how many wounded Iraqis were shot in that mosque?

[Ms. Clio]

57. Fine, you don't know--I am saying I have a very good idea of what happened

Based on these photos, and the entire history of this war.

At least one was shot, but at least one report indicated there were multiple victims.

[Tacos al Carbon]

59. Link to that report, please

And you have a very good idea? Well, you certainly picked an apt screen name.BTW, that picture above ... that is an Israeli policeman beating up a Palestinian youth, right? What do your keen powers of observation tell you?

[Ms. Clio]

73. Certainly, I have links

From MSNBC:


Sites saw the five wounded men left behind on Friday still in the mosque. Four of them had been shot again, apparently by members of the squad that entered the mosque moments earlier. One appeared to be dead, and the three others were severely wounded. The fifth man was lying under a blanket, apparently not having been shot a second time.

One of the Marines noticed that one of the severely wounded men was still breathing. He did not appear to be armed, Sites said.

The Marine could be heard insisting: “He’s f---ing faking he’s dead — he’s faking he’s f---ing dead.” Sites then watched as the Marine raised his rifle and fired into the man’s head from point-blank range.

“Well, he’s dead now,” another Marine said.

(snip)

The investigation will address why the wounded men were left behind for 24 hours, why four of them were shot Saturday and whether the killing observed by Sites was illegal.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6496898/


The shooting was videotaped by pool correspondent Kevin Sites of NBC television, who said three other previously wounded prisoners in the mosque were also apparently shot by Marines inside the mosque.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=179&id=1322372004

And I had no idea this photo did not make its context COMPLETELY CLEAR






Maybe those aren't even American soldiers in the background???

We can play this game all day!

[Tacos al Carbon]

88. That photo ...

Do tell, what is the context of the soldiers? Are they chasing the children? Hunting them? Did they shoot at them? Or are they casually walking away from a battle site?

[Sterling]

97. You are truly clueless?

You don't know what that very famous picture is of. Did you assume people thought it was appalling because they assumed the soldiers were "chasing" those kids?

That has never been the assumption sir. It was taken right after a US bomb had destroyed her village and killed her family. That was why people were outraged. Somehow I think you might know this and are only pretending to be as clueless as you are coming off on this thread?

You really need to take a history class or two.

[Tacos al Carbon]

122. Please

Reread the post that I was responding to. The poster was implying some ill deeds on the part of the soldiers in the background. I know exactly what that photo is of. Here is Kim Phuc now:



She escaped from the communists in 1992 after they exploited her for most of her life. She has publicly forgiven the people that napalmed her village, including the man who ordered the strike, and is happy living in a free country today.

[Ms. Clio]

124. I was implying some ill deeds because that's what they were there to do

Or maybe you've forgotten that teensy tiny detail. And please notice that she lives in CANADA.

I could post some pictures from Wounded Knee, but I'm sure you would be able to excuse and justify those, too.

And it sure made it easy for you to forget all about that link you just had to have, didn't it?

[Tacos al Carbon]

155. She lives in Canada because that's where her plane stopped to refuel

And that's where she could escape. Had it landed in Detroit, sh'd be a U.S. citizen. And I checked out your link. I also saw the video. One man was shot, who was feigning death. Another wounded man, who spoke to the soldiers, was not shot because, apparently, he wasn't feigning death. Nothing in the video suggests that that group of marines shot any other wounded men.

And what ill deeds were those soldiers in that picture there to do, exactly?

[Sterling]

151. Well that makes it ok for sure.

Maybe the guy in these photo's will forgive the soldiers he is pictured with?

[Tacos al Carbon]

156. Maybe there's nothing to forgive

eom.

[Ms. Clio]

100. Hello, you wanted links--what a bummer for you that I had them, huh?

Don't you have any comment on the murder of multiple wounded prisoners? Or can you excuse that, too?

You're right, they are completely blameless--only the napalm that injured the child is directly responsible for her agony and grief.

Oh, this is so easy once you figure out how to do it.

[Yupster]

148. I always thought they were ARVN soldiers

in the background, but I don't know that. They just looked small to me.

[mopaul]

58. I confess: I made the whole thing up with Photoshop

I have a diabolical plan to make America look bad.

[Tacos al Carbon]

60. If it were anyone else saying that, mopaul

I'd think they were joking.

[pocket]

146. they are American

Or at least they have American uniforms, armor, and weapons. You can see the flag on one guy's right upper arm.

Whoever thinks that the subject's sideburns are 'blood streaming down his face' is kind of silly, though.

[mopaul]

45. maybe there really isn't wholesale slaughter going on in Iraq either

maybe it's all just a highschool play

[Tacos al Carbon]

53. Maybe

Not a high school play, though. Too much production value.

[Sterling]

86. And the image quality is inferior.

You would really have to be an idiot not to be able to make out that something is wrong in this series of images.

[Nederland]

46. These mean nothing

Those who say that the only possible explanation for what is happening in these photographs is that a man was executed lack imagination.

[mopaul]

47. enlighten us with your vivid imagination

perhaps it's two differnt men, the iraqis all look alike to me.

..........bitter sarcasm.........

[Ms. Clio]

50. Hey, maybe it didn't even happen in Iraq at all

I mean, those pictures could have been taken anywhere.

[DrWeird]

52. Maybe it's just a frat prank.

:eyes:

[Nederland]

61. Easy

There are so many possibilities. Here's several:

1) There is nothing wrong. The guy was captured and dragged around. In the third picture he is alive despite your active imagination.

2) The order of the photographs is wrong. The guy was originally unconscious and dragged to the location in the first photo.

3) The guy was injured in his original capture and became unconscious after being held due to blood loss. After losing consciousness, the soldiers started to drag him to a medical facility but he died before they got there.

4) The guy was captured by US troops. He was held captive and then escaped. He was killed in a fight that occurred much later.

5) The guy was captured by US troops. He was held captive when another group of insurgents attacked. During the attack, he was killed by a grenade. His body was then dragged to a new location.

and for the really conspiratorially minded:

6) The guy was being held for questioning but killed by another insurgent.


I'm not saying I believe any of these, especially the last one. I merely point out that the possibilities are virtually endless.

[mopaul]

62. another Iraqi suicide

another Iraqi, pretending to be dead to make democrats look crazy

[Tacos al Carbon]

64. Now, don't go lumping all Democrats

in with the crazies.

[DrWeird]

63. 7) The guy was captured by US troops. Killed out of spite.

We've seen it plenty of times before.

[Nederland]

66. Completely possible

I just have a problem with people that assume they know when they can't possibly know.

[mopaul]

68. I can't possibly know the moon is real, yet I assume it is,

I can't possibly know that cheney is president, yet i assume he is.

[chipaev]

74. Innocent before guilty

I hear a lot of people defend the sacred laws of this land, what happened to innocent before proven guilty? You can't possibly prove those soldiers did anything in court with just those photos.

[Bouncy Ball]

76. Which is why it's important that they are questioned

in every legal manner.

It's also important that we follow the laws of the Geneva Convention. We are NOT above them.

[DrWeird]

Tell it to the Iraqis who are summarily executed.

Funny how "innocent before guilty" only applies to the white christian people.

[LynnTheDem]

127. You mean like Iraq and WMD being "innocent until proven guilty"?

You mean like not invading nations because they're "innocent until proven guilty"?

Yes. Good question. Whatever DID happen to "innocent until proven guilty" in this country. Oh that's right, bush came along.

[chipaev]

162. still innocent before proven guilty

so the solution is to completely forget about innocent before proven guitly? I don't understand, are you better than bush or just another copy of him on the other side? We don't know what happened and even discussing it before we know is almost pointless. Yes, we should question the soldiers. No, we should not jump to conclusions.

I don't even have a response to the "white christian" theory as we executed plenty of white christians without a trial in both WW1 and WW2.

[LynnTheDem]

163. HUH???

I never said a word about the soldiers in this entire post.

All I said was "innocent until proven guilty" like Iraq was? bush did not do "innocent until proven guilty" for Iraq, now did he. No; Iraq was GUILTY NO PROOF REQUIRED PERIOD.

bush didn't jump to conclusions about Iraq; he bloody well BOUNDED TALL BUILDINGS to them.

And that's all my post was about.

[Tinoire]

123. What's virtually endless is the amoung of bull-shit we've been seeing

in threads that evoke compassion from Progressives and Liberals.


You forgot another possibility. WMDs flew out of his butt.

[Nederland]

137. Actually

...that is not a possibility, but thanks for trying to think a little.

[Sterling]

101. Yes, it would take an active imagination to blind you from

the obvious.

[Bouncy Ball]

71. Wow

people will really stretch themselves not to believe something.

Really LOOK at that third picture. You mean to tell me those three troops are just standing there saying "Hey look at that Iraqi pretending to be dead with his arms behind him and his feet all splayed out that like in the middle of that rubble!"

"Let's drag him over here." (Second picture)

"And put him against this wall." (First picture)

Uh-huh. Right. I've got some swampland in Arizona to sell anyone who believes that.

If what happened is they shot and killed a prisoner who was bound and in custody (and he is), then that is against international law. Not a little against it, either, but CLEARLY against it.

I am a veteran's wife, but not all troops are angels bearing gifts of Beanie Babies for little kids. And this is a truly fucked up situation.

[okasha]

129. Well, that's almost right.

Picture 3. Three US troops come upon an Iraqi napping in the gutter, with blood streaking down his face and his hands bound behind him. Very gently they wake him up, wash his face for him and

Picture 2. help him into a more comfortable position

Picture 1. where he can say his prayers and get a nice tan.

How very kind.

[spanone]

77. Enjoying your democracy?

[mopaul]

80. so far.......

while it lasts

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

85. *Sigh*........

.....and another internet fueled urban legend is born.

[mopaul]

87. like that silly WMD urban legend

sigh

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

93. Exactly!

Except that legend was provided by the president, which is SUPPOSED to be more reliable than the "internets"

And don't forget the "Hussain was an imminent threat" legend.

[meisje]

91. Where is the blood? Why would the soldiers handle a dead Iraqi?

A wound from that type of gun will blow a large bloody hole in a person.

[mopaul]

95. where is the bullet hole?

obviously somewhere where it can't be seen. maybe they beat him to death, i'm just grasping at straws to make america look bad is all.

[Karenina]

102. Never mind this shit

been going down EVERY DAY for nearly TWO YEARS. IS IT REAL??? :eyes:

[meisje]

105. You would still see blood

[mopaul]

106. your a certified photo forensics expert then?

you don't see blood, therefore, the man simply fell and died, or passed out from boredom.

[meisje]

112. The burden of proof is on you.

You appear to agree that this man was executed, I'm asking for proof!
If you do not require proof, then I've got a WMD story I'll sell you real cheap.

[mopaul]

114. I don't have to prove anything

i'm not responsible for the photo or it's contents. i didn't even provide the headline. that came with the photo.

the burden of proof is on the war crimes tribunals, not me.

[meisje]

118. Then what is your point?

You appear to agree with the post, defend your agreement.

[Sterling]

130. With the way our guys have been acting over there I would say

he might have been "sexicuted"?:

[Sterling]

131. Yes, the guy is obviously faking it.

Like these people:

Or sleeping like this guy?:

[RockStar]

140. More KKK/Neo Nazi soldiers doing their job with a passion.

[Ms. Clio]

143. Awwww, don't do that

Really, you might wanna tone it all down just a bit.


:crazy:

[Bouncy Ball]

158. Hey

I can't speak for those guys in the pictures, but there ARE soldiers who are there who do NOT want to be there, who do NOT want to kill Iraqis and who are against this war. I know there are.

[Rapcw]

147. Freedom is on the march!

O boy can't wait for those elections!!1
:eyes:

[FM Arouet666]

152. Suspicious

The web page does not offer any information regarding the scenario depicted in the photos. To take at face value, it might be interpreted as an execution, but without further information, you cannot draw a conclusion.

Bashing the Bush administration and the poorly conceived war in Iraq is justified. However, drawing a conclusion based on unsubstantiated information is not justified. This is how Dan Rather got into trouble.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

161. ahh so that's the "fire of freedom" and "freedom on the march" and.....

"expanding freedom" that bush* spoke of in his inaugual speech?
yup lets spread that freedom and bring that democracy at gun point and bombs....yeah that's the ticket :crazy: