for Catholics: would you risk Ex-communication by voting pro choice?

[mopaul]

Not being a Catholic, I wouldn't give a damn, no pun intended, or worry about being figuratively punished for voting for a pro choice candidate.

How much of a serious threat is ex-communication to you? Do you appreciate being blackmailed and threatened in this way?

This is a serious question, not intended as flame bait, I just find questions concerning politics and theology fascinating.

[Squatch]

1. It's not

"...much of a serious threat..."

Ex-communication or not, I will still believe in my god, with or without the Catholic Church.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. Actually, for me, it is a non issue

my priest is a liberal dem.

[Hugin]

3. I've hear talk of...

The libs reframing this...

Calling the fundies "Pro-Birth" due to the fact most
of them don't give a darn what happens to the child
after that point. "Pull yerself up by yer bootstraps
like... um... like... somebody maybe did once."

I suppose I should start calling myself "Pro-Life" then.

REFRAMING!

[Crandor]

4. How would they know? (n/t)

[Virginian]

5. Isn't it just some churches

are threatening to withhold sacrements from those who voted pro-choice? Or has it even gotten that far?

If one parish goes that way, isn't there another parish down the street that doesn't?

Next thing you know, some wing nut will want the Church to with hold sacrements from anyone who didn't vote for Bush.

IMHO, The church leaders can pray for our leaders that they lead wisely. Beyond that, keep 'em separate.

[mopaul]

6. It's not official Catholic Church policy I'm sure

As you say, only some so called activist priests threaten their members with ex-communication, as they did recently with John Kerry, a Catholic.

[merbex]

7. Yes, but I am a recovering Catholic n/t

I got the message that abortion is wrong but we have a free will and people make decisions for all sorts of reasons that neither I or anyone else are privy to

[Gman]

8. The question is somewhat irrelevant

as it is not a mortal sin to vote for someone that is pro-choice, despite what some fanatics (including some of the church hierarchy) would have you believe.

Our parish priest gave a good sermon Saturday evening (Catholics can go to church on Saturday evening and it counts for Sunday.) The nutcases at our church planned this elaborate ceremony and a rosary praying session for after mass. Our priest, in his sermon, acknowledged the anniversary of Roe v. Wade but added that some would ask, "what about the poverty that many would be born into?" He also asked what about unjust war, what about capital punishment, and what about social justice and that all these are important issues (he carefully avoided saying these are just as important).

After the mass, the fundies had their little ceremony that our priest did as little as possible for, then he immediately left as did all but no more than 20 or 25 people of about 400 there.

Our priest is from Europe where they are able to put things into much better perspective than here. I've had conversations with him about the demonization of Catholics that are pro-choice. He called the anti-abortion people "fanatics" that have lost sight of the complete meaning of the Catholic or universal church.

[lizzieforkerry]

11. Man, I wish I had your priest! It's good to know there are some good

ones out there!

[Gman]

15. Our priest also said

"what about war?" then talked on about 6 million killed in German concentration camps and 30 million Chinese killed in WWII.

I asked him last year how a good Catholic can vote for Bush in good conscience when the Pope his self told Bush, "If you go to Iraq, you go without God."? He agreed with my sentiment.

Overall, he believes the world is so completely and absolutely fubared that it will take an actual miracle to fix things.

[RUDUing2]

9. voting pro-choice is not grounds for excommunicaiton...

I am catholic and along w/the majority of american catholics I am pro-choice.

Procurring, having, or performing an abortion is grounds for ex-communication is grounds for excommunication but even then there are loopholes..

Can. 1323 -- The following are not subject to penalties when they have violated a law or precept:

1° a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;

2° a person who without any fault was unaware of violating a law or precept; however, inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;

3° a person who acted out of physical force or in virtue of a mere accident which could neither be foreseen nor prevented when foreseen;

4° a person who acted out of grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or out of necessity or out of serious inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or verges on harm to souls;

5° a person who for the sake of legitimate self-defense or defense of another acted against an unjust aggressor with due moderation;

6° a person who lacked the use of reason with due regard for the prescriptions of can 1324, §1, n. 2 and 1325;

7° a person who without any fault felt that the circumstances in nn. 4 or 5 were verified.

Can. 1324 -- §1. One who violates a law or precept is not exempt from a penalty but the penalty set by law or precept must be tempered or a penance substituted in its place if the offense was committed:

1° by a person with only the imperfect use of reason;

2° by a person who lacked the use of reason due to drunkenness or another similar mental disturbance which was culpable;

3° in the serious heat of passion which did not precede and impede all deliberation of mind and consent of will as long as the passion itself had not been voluntarily stirred up or fostered;

4° by a minor who has completed sixteen years of age;

5° by a person who was forced through grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or out of necessity or out of serious inconvenience if the offense was intrinsically evil or verged on harm to souls;

6° a person who for the sake of legitimate self-defense or defense of another acted against an unjust aggressor but without due moderation;

7° against one gravely and unjustly provoking it;

8° by one who erroneously yet culpably thought one of the circumstances in nn. 4 or 5 was verified;

9° by one who without any fault was unaware that a penalty was attached to the law or precept;

10° by one who acted without full imputability provided there was grave imputability.

§2. A judge can act in the same manner if any other circumstances exist that would lessen the seriousness of the offense.

§3. An accused is not bound by an automatic penalty (latae sententiae) in the presence of any of the circumstances enumerated in §1.

Can. 1325 -- Crass, supine or affected ignorance can never be considered in applying the prescriptions of cann. 1323 and 1324; the same is true for drunkenness and other mental disturbances deliberately induced to commit or excuse the offense; this is also true for passion which is deliberately aroused or fostered.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

10. i am catholic and a pro-choicer and let me say it is between me and my God

and NO ONE ELSE...not even the Pope!

personally i choose for myself not to have an abortion but would NEVER try and cram my personal beliefs onto another person...like i said it is personal and no one else's business

[Hugin]

14. AMEN sister! n/t

[SillyGoose]

12. I'm catholic and I vote for pro-choice candidates.

Ex-communication is not a threat to me, nor is being charged with heresy. If that's what the Church wants to do to pro-choice catholics, then let them excommunicate me. I don't need them to tell me how to vote and I don't need them in order for me to follow my spiritual beliefs.

[diamond14]

13. THAT is not Church policy....WAKE UP....it was just a political ploy

to claim that John Kerry would be excommunicated at the communion rail....it's all just reTHUGlican propaganda....seems DUers are STILL falling into that rovian playbook....you are SUCKED INTO the reTHUGlican propaganda...WAKE UP !!


the whole ex-communicate John Kerry was total BULL...the Cardinal of Washington DC said so, the Council of Bishops said so...the POPE came out and encouraged people not to vote on SINGLE ISSUES like abortion, but to vote on the entire Catholic Pro-Life concepts: death penalty, war, care for seniors, social programs, etc.....the Church also PUBLISHED a list of all Congressional voting records and rated them for their stance on Catholic issues: John Kerry is TOPS for Catholic voting....#1....

the only attack-lying-so called catholic that bush* could find to attack John Kerry was admitted gambler/liar BILL BENNETT...just that should tell you something...

[adigal]

16. Our bishops should read some history

St. Augustine thought there was no abortion until the "quickening" (moving) of the baby, and there was no rule against abortion until that time (about 2nd trimester) until the mid-1800s. So it's all rather recent, this brouhaha over abortion.

[noonwitch]

17. How would they know how you vote, we have a secret ballot system.

I'm not a catholic, but it seems to me that the church would not know how it's members voted, unless they talk about it.

It's not like the archdiocese in Boston is going to be cutting off Kennedys and Kerrys for being pro-choice. They need those donations to keep coming so that they can pay off all their pedophile priest related lawsuits.