Regarding the Karma Rating discussion...

[EarlG]

We're locking up the other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3055908

Thank you very much for the input, we REALLY appreciate it. Your feedback has been invaluable. You've made it quite clear that you think the idea sucks, and would probably be unworkable, and we accept that. Further Admin discussion of a member moderation system will be shelved, and most likely permanently. For the forseeable future, we'll keep on keepin' on the way we have been.

The feedback has given us some other ideas though, particularly some of the suggestions about rewarding positive behavior. In fact, elad's working on something right now... :)

[jeff30997]

1. Karma Karma Karma Chameleon !

When I was a teen I thought the lyrics were : Comma comma in me Leon.You come and go.You come and go.:shrug:

[wryter2000]

2. I like that

Rewarding good behavior. That's a great idea.

[EarlG]

8. Well, actually it's not really rewarding positive behavior

More like positive contributions. We'll let you know more later.

[wryter2000]

22. Whatever

I'm sure I'll like it. :yourock:

[WritersBlock]

41. Ice cream works....

Seriously, though, thanks for listening, guys.

[Orangepeel]

3. thanks, EarlG

I'm glad!

I hope that you can find something workable that will take some of the burden of dealing with people who had their lives ruined by having their threads locked off the admins shoulders (although I have to admit that I like to read the "ask the admins" forum!)

[necso]

4. I had prepared a long post arguing against

ratings (although open to the idea of member-based deletions at least in the Groups).

I am just as happy to not have to post it.

[Bunny]

5. Thank you EarlG, Skinner and Elad.

I appreciate that you threw it out for us to discuss, and I'm happy that you took our opinions into account. We may make things difficult at times for you all, but DU is fine just the way it is. Really.

Dear God, I sound like Mr. Rogers, don't I???

[EarlG]

11. No problem

We had really had no idea how the suggestion would be taken, it was certainly an eye-opener. I'm definitely glad we put it out for discussion first :)

[bvar22]

12. No, sounds like your are trying....

...to get first-in-line for the good DU members rewards.

Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet
Teacher's Pet


/kidding
:)

[Bunny]

15. Rats! I had no idea I was so obvious!

:silly:

[bvar22]

24. That's OK.

I probably got a demerit for my post.
My teachers ALL agreed that I have poor impulse control.

:dunce:

[El Fuego]

6. It sounds like a really wicked new Reality Show - SURVIVAL DU!

There would be revenge plots, intrigue, vendettas, setups, secret alliances, and assassinations. It might be fun to watch, but I don't think I want to be on DU Island.

If there really must be an Authority, I'd rather it be a small cute dog. Having your "peers" gang up on you because they don't like you
-- well that's just plain nasty.

The climate at DU is already subtly shaped and influenced by group response. There's no need to codify it into mob rule regulations.

And "Rewarding positive behavior" sounds like homogenization. DU would be totally boring. :boring:

[merh]

16. LOL - I love that DU Survivor!

You make me laugh! Thanks for the giggles! :hi:

[bvar22]

7. I have absolutely HATED reward systems for the....

...goody goody two shoes ever since grammer school......

that and all those bags of ashes I got for Christmas.

I guess now I'll be sitting in the back of the room at DU FOREVER!!!!
:dunce:

[KittyWampus]

35. It's Easier To Launch Spitballs From The Back Of The Classroom.

[Rowdyboy]

9. Its really cool that you guys bothered to ask...and then listened...

I think you just spend too much time in ATA and it depresses you. All you do is handle constant whining and bitching and forget that 95% of the board is happy with the job you do.

:thumbsup: Thanks

[KoKo]

28. Rowdy Boy.....I agree...they must be hearing too much negativity....

what's that old expression? "The squeaky wheel get's the oil?"

[KC21304]

10. Can you stand another . . . If it ain't broke don't fix it ?

This is my one and only discussion board but from what I hear about the goings on in those other places, I think we have a winner here.

This old broad would just as soon not have to learn a lot of new tricks. And I would hate to find out at this stage that everone on DU hates me. LOL.

Thanks again for all you guys do for us here.

[Must_B_Free]

13. it's because you don't like me isn't it?

I can take a hint... :(

[KoKo]

29. I thought it was targeted to me too...

.My posts aren't popular...I don't get high counts and folks think I'm too left for DU...I knew when they came...they would come after "me." :-( (just being a contrarian, here...but one never knows these days)

[merh]

14. Thanks guys!

For asking for our opinions and for all you do. I am glad you shelved the "karma count" or whatever. If we our "bad" posters and if you get a lot of complaints about us, do you just "tombstone" or do we get a warning? I'm just curious. I always thought a warning email was sent by the mods to say "settle down", "step out of the ring", "get a life" or whatever. Is that done or is it just "bye bye"?

Anyway thanks again.

I love DU and I would hate to be banished from here. It gives me hope, makes me laugh, provides me with so much information and helps me realize I am not alone. Thanks for all you do and for DU! :loveya: :hug:

[ultraist]

17. Thanks for being inclusive and for everything you all do here!

I've really enjoyed posting here and everyone has been very welcoming.

Looking forward to the proposal to acknowledge superior work/posts!

I also like the "nurturant parent model" you have chosen opposed to the strict father model (Lakoff). ;)


:kick:

[Book Lover]

18. Thanks!

I also was writing a somewhat lengthly argument against the idea, and am glad I won't have to finish it :-) Thanks for asking and thanks for listening!

[soup]

19. good

and

Skinner, elad and EarlG-

Thank you for all that you do. I'd be lost without this place.

[Dookus]

20. Thanks Earl

I think it's a very interesting idea, but my immediate concerns were echoed by a few hundred other people in that thread, a number of whom have real-world experience with such a system.

I think it's really nice that you asked us about it.

[bpilgrim]

21. guess will have to just wait till we hit a million users

:evilgrin:

i think if it is used democratically - a filter that is - where NO-ONE, but the mods, can delete any post it could make DU even more valuable for some while not really changing ANY end user experience for those evil DU'ers who dont want to use it ;->

anyways, thanks for ALL y'all do and keeping us posted :toast:

peace

[robbedvoter]

23. Missed the original discussion. Just to say I had a good experience

with member ratings on Clark's blog and Kos, but I guess DU has different preferences and that's fine as well.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. Would this mean

that I'd have to go back to being a worm in a pig's colon?

:shrug:

[Lisabtrucking]

26. One thing that should be done is

When you delete someones post why don't you at least tell them why. even if it is one word. like. bigotry, biased, vulgar, raciest, and so on. I had one removed and wondered what happen maybe to hard on something. still wondering.

[merkins]

27. I'm moding this +5!!!

The discussion was good reading and watching it play out onto its final conclusion just reinforces to me how good DU is .. reminds me a bit of an open-source system. I have been in modereated forums and never did care for them .. it just seems to change the mindset somewhat into status/personality rather then actual discussion and ideas.
Sounds likes there are kinks to smooth out yet and I have nothing but praise from this seat in the peanut gallery for all the work EarlG, Skinner & Co. do to keep this unbelievable forum going like it is...

[msgadget]

30. What does 'positive behavior' look like?

And, who determines it? Will the reward be edible? If so, I'd like to cast my vote right this minute for CHOCOLATE.

[qanda]

31. I think one thing that thread showed

Is how little positive feedback you guys get. If we started a thread that asks people to just say "good job guys", it will probably be the longest in the history of DU. I guess the squeaky wheel is what's heard. But, I love DU and want you guys to know that you're doing a wonderful job of keeping this community one of the best on the internet.

[Skinner]

32. kick for the saturday morning crowd. (nt)

[Misunderestimator]

33. Oh Yay!! Glad to hear it.

:yourock:

[KittyWampus]

34. Thanks, So Many Others Had Already Voiced Their Concerns

I didn't chime in... but sure am glad it's not happening.

[JimmyJazz]

36. Thanks for asking us! If only we could come up with a way

to keep the admins from being innondated with "why did you lock my thread?" posts - that would be a very good thing!

[curse10]

37. I missed the big thread yesterday

but I don't know how much I like the new idea. I have positions that aren't always welcome on this board by certain members. And even without this system in place there have been several times when a small group of vocal people have implemented change on the board (much to my disgust). I just feel like those of us who aren't in cliques, who don't have outrageously high post counts (even though I've been here longer than 95% of the board), and who aren't afraid to not always pull what some people want to be the party line, would get fucked over.

Maybe my concerns are misplaced, but they are definitely there.

[Neecy]

38. good news!

I participate in a forum on coffee, and members used to have the ability to 'applaud' or 'smite' another member. The smite function caused so many hurt feelings - how controversial is coffee? - that they removed it, because it wasn't used to moderate but to express dislike for someone.

I'm glad we're not going in that direction here, and that the member input was respected. Well done, guys.

[Spazito]

39. Thanks EarlG and Skinner!

I am glad DU is going to remain as it is with a few tweaks. DU is the absolute best forum on the net!

Thanks, also, for asking for our input. Doing that shows how democratic Democratic Underground really is and allowed us, as members, to state how much we appreciate all you guys do, sometimes under very difficult times.

[whatelseisnew]

40. Thanks for the open ears - what about personal ratings options?

Not the public rating idea you introduced, but a take off:

Sort of expanding on the Ignore option but for both positive & negative ratings. So I can rate my opinion of other posters for my eyes only. Joe Blo posted the smartest thing I ever heard - I'll rate him. Then when I see his name again, I'll look at my rating of him (might include brief comments) and remember - oh yeah, that guy, and make sure to open his post.

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

42. A Different View -- An idea on dealing with Nasty People

Unlike a place like Slashdot which utilizes a couple of different mechanisms for grading or moderating user's posts to great effect based on their huge user base*, as well on the typically benign attitudes of computer geeks(tm), DU is a very feisty environment where those same kind of rating tools would be abused.

So rather than voting on a post/thread, I see an opportunity in extending the 'ignore' feature already built-in to DU. The simple addition of a button "turn ignoring on" and "turn ignoring off" would allow people to cut the chaff when they felt like it.

It would be kind of like putting on your own personal rose colored glasses. A visual indicator like a rose background color would let you know you're still ignoring.

When the situation calms down you could turn off the ignore filter.

Termporarily ignoring would seem to be a good use of the ignore which otherwise shuts out voices pretty much for good (who would go back to check their ignore list to un-ignore certain people who were pissing you off for a while?).

Advanced features like time-based ignoring (ignore this user for minutes/hours/days) or thread-based ignoring would be nice too.

This kind of tool would help people stay calm and out of flame wars. A further effect, once users got used to it, would be that knowing you won't get the desired replies from a flame-bait, since everyone can easily dismiss your ranting, the desire to bait would be drastically reduced.

As an added bonus, Moderators could be alerted when a user gets a bunch of ignores to check in on what's going on. Unlike regular Alerts, which are only used when someone feels really put out, the Ignoring is less prejudical but still a indicator, and perhaps an even more effective one, that there's some kind of tempest in the teapot.

The key to this is its all personal -- each user personally chooses, and know one else has to know.

Just an idea, hopefully not too difficult to program in.

All the best,
{B^)
FULL_METAL_HAT

*As an illustration for how big Slashdot's user base is, the term "first post" came from the fact that so many people surf a site like Slashdot that the chance of being the first person to see a new article is so rare, people are suprised when they are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_post

[mzmolly]

47. It would also be interesting to see how many people had you on ignore.

LOL. That might clue a few people in, and give an idea to a poster if he/she is over the top? ;)

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

48. Exactly! a message saying "YOU ARE BEING IGNORED BY X PEOPLE" ...

I think it could help people who were getting a little out of hand but didn't really realize it.

Freepers of course would find a point of pride of getting the most ignores ironically! lol

{B^)

[kentuck]

43. When I see a questionable comment....

...one that seems to come straight from Hannity or Limbaugh, I do not automatically assume they are a freeper. However, I try to start a question process to dig further into their philosophical beliefs... After the other DUers get into the questioning, they don't usually hang around very long. I think the fellow DUers do a pretty good job of weeding out the disruptors, considering the growth that DU has experienced. I think that will continue for the forseeable future, even though we may have a few more freepers than in the past. There is a self-policing policy in place already - whether or not it is announced.

[Just Me]

44. I just appreciate that you invited our perspectives!!!

You all really do NOT get enough credit for what you have accomplished. It's a tough job to maintain "balance"!

I look forward to your development of a reward system. I hope it has something to do with recognition of contributions by participants. We have some pretty spectacular talent and dedication here that deserve acknowledgement (including you)!!!

My most sincere gratitude for all that you do!

:yourock:

[mzmolly]

45. kick

:kick:

[mzmolly]

46. I would like to see a way for banned members to be reinstated.

Perhaps a voting system after a request for reinstatement or something ?

The reason I inquire is because we lost so many good people in the primarys because they were "passionate." I understand that people are banned for a reason generally, but I'd sure like to see some type of temporary banning before the permanent wack KWIM? Perhaps a week, then 30 days then permanent? Of course this would not apply to blatent disruptors, but to legitmate progressives who just got a bit carried away one day. :shrug:

I think everyone here who is legit has been really riled at one time or another, and it can get the best of most anybody IMHO.

I wondered if consideration has been given to this issue along these same lines? I realize much thought, consideration and discussion goes into "banning" a member, but I think sometimes a wake up call would suffice in restoring respectful dialogue?

Thanks for asking for our comments/feedback.

I don't participate too much on any other forums, so I'm not sure how all this works, but I've certainly have enjoyed myself here *ehem* a bit too much!

PS I hope this isn't off topic, but I thought it played into the issue of how peers feel about other posters, so I thought it related?

:*

[Cleita]

52. I agree.

Many of the banned weren't trolls and I miss their input even though I didn't always agree with them.

[paineinthearse]

49. Thanks Skinner, Earl & Elad

:yourock:

[ProfessorGAC]

50. Thanks Earl!

I agree that some pretty good ideas came out of that original thread. I think you guys commented on nearly all of them that i thought were clever, positive, and workable.

Interesting disucssion, and thanks for the followup.
The Professor

[tom_paine]

51. Rewards? Downloadable Scooby Snacks for the Virtuous?

A shame I won't qualify...

:evilgrin:

[Triana]

53. I've been on other sites where there was a 'karma' rating system

....and it sucked. BAD BAD idea. The system was useless and ultimately abused by too many of the members (which is why it was ultimately useless).

They did end up doing away with it, too, for just that reason. And vendettas. We had em in spades.

It just didn't work...