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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:24 AM
Original message
How many of you know someone like this?
Is this why we lost the election?

I was in San Francisco last week with a co-worker and representative from that area. The rep was going on about how he loved to watch Fox News. It didn't bother me so much as many people watch that piece of crap network, but then he actually said, "You know, Fox News, the fair and balanced news network". I screamed out, "Yeah right!!". He said something like "well they may be a little biased". I thought 'fine... whatever, typical Bush supporter'.

Anyways, later we were at his house talking about politics and he said "I voted as a Democrat my whole life, but 9/11 changed everything". He went on with the same BS talking points like, "Kill them all.. O'Reilly is fair.. hippies are stupid". He(white) is married to a black women who thinks he's ridiculous. It was really disgusting.

I didn't know what to say. This guy was so brainwashed that I just sat there in awe. How could someone change so much by the events of 9/11, and why did 9/11 make him a Republican? Is it because they are pro-death and destruction?

After I heard that, I thought 'It wasn't Kerry's sub-par campaign, or drinking a beer with Bush, it was that 9/11 screwed the democrats'.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. I always argue with them,
never pass up the chance to slam their little pink faces into the hard wall of reality. I've knocked the blinders off a few this way.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. every last one of them is a liar
well, your mileage may vary, but everyone i've met that talked like that struck me as someone who, or eventually admitted that, they'd never voted for a democrat. they might have REGISTERED as a democrat, but they never actually VOTED for a democrat, at least, not for major offices like prez/veep, congress, or governor.
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I disagree...
This guy went on and on about how he voted for Clinton twice and Gore in 2000. Maybe you had to be there, but he was completely brain-washed by anything anyone said on Fox News. BTW, after O'Reilly went off the air he changed the station to Dennis Miller's show.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. like i said, your mileage may vary
but i've never met one of them that wasn't really a republican at heart all along.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Maybe... but I don't care what they were at heart.
I care about who they vote for.
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. You might enjoy these letters to the NYRB on a similar subject
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17788

. . .

The choice to support Bush—and Republicans generally—gives quite average Americans a chance to feel superior. On moral terrain, they show singular virtue by not doing such things that will lead them to resort to abortion. They can take pride in their heterosexuality, regarding gays as immorally self-indulgent. And the time and energy they devote to worship shows their dedication and discipline. Finally, they see nothing wrong with periodic wars (Swift Boaters were an ex-post defense of Vietnam) since fighting marshals character and courage, whereas doubting conveys an aroma of cowardice.

They are also fiscally superior. While most are far from wealthy, these voters tend to live in areas where living costs are not sky-high, and their salaries cover pleasures like trips to Disneyland and Caribbean cruises. Most have enough health coverage, do not feel their jobs are endan-gered, and aren't yet worried about their retirement. In short, they can differentiate —and distance—themselves from all those "losers" that Democratic candidates ask us to worry about. Hence they feel able to disdain the word "liberal," since that connotes handouts for complainers who don't show the energy to make it on their own.

So the Bush candidacy was framed to make a majority by giving some 60 million people a chance to feel good about themselves.

Andrew Hacker
Professor of Political Science
Queens College
New York City

. . .



To the Editors:

Convincingly debunking the "moral values" storyline concerning the fall election, Mark Danner suggests that Bush's victory turned instead on the fears raised by terrorism and the war in Iraq. The Republicans, he argues, constructed a narrative that relentlessly contrasted Bush's presumed "forthrightness, decisiveness, and strength" with Kerry's "uncertainty, hesitation, vacillation." But how, one must ask, did that story work so well as to effectively override the plain facts—the nonexistence of WMDs in Iraq, for example, and the disconnect between Iraq and September 11—which Danner cites? The answer, I would propose, lies at the level of theme and subtext.

The Republican storyline reached Americans at the gut level because it was fundamentally about masculinity—about who is and who is not a "real man."

The masculine-feminine binary virtually defined the Republican campaign. Bush played the tough, aggressive "stand-up guy" who would "stay the course" because "sometimes a man's gotta be a man." Kerry, meanwhile, was transformed into a soft, flip-flopping, effete elitist—a "girly man," in the immortal words of the Hollywood action hero now governing California, or, in Jon Stewart's satirical synopsis, "a pussy." In the Republican narrative, in short, "Democrat" translated as "weak" and "liberal" as "effeminate."

. . .

Paul Cohen
Professor of History
Lawrence University
Appleton, Wisconsin

. . .

Mark Danner replies:

. . .

As I tried to show in my article, and as the writers of these letters make clear, this election had, like most, more to do with emotions and attitudes than it had to do with facts. Andrew Hacker artfully describes the Bush campaign's success in creating a majority of "quite average Americans" who were offered, in supporting Bush and the "values" he stood for, "a chance to feel superior." On "issues" like abortion, health care, gay marriage, and the Iraq war, among many others, the Bush campaign did not appeal to voters' "policy preferences." Instead, as I tried to show and as Mr. Hacker makes vividly clear, the campaign worked to create a "community of attitudes" that privileged self-sufficiency, independence, and self-reliance—in short, the typically "masculine" values on the side of the "masculine-feminine binary" that, as Mr. Cohen points out, Republicans have played on in their campaigns for many years.

The added element this year was a strong ratcheting up of fear—the fear of attack, the fear of vulnerability in the post–September 11 world. Fear bolstered the need for the qualities that Bush was made to represent; fear was the question, as it were, to which Mr. Bush's clarity, forthrightness, and strength were posed as the answer. Kerry, for his part, was made "the anti-Bush," exemplifying in his flip-flopping and shilly-shallying everything that Bush stood against—and everything that, if allowed into the White House, could put the country at greater risk. Voters should support Bush not only because casting a ballot for him reaffirmed the values they shared with him and thus, in Mr. Hacker's terms, made them "feel superior" but because that vote would help keep the threat Kerry was made to represent—one of self-indulgent, indecisive, "feminized" weakness—out of the White House. (To take one example: Bush's opposition to gay marriage—and Kerry's implied "softness" on the issue—seems to have been particularly important in bolstering the President's support among older men, whose votes were, as Scott Turow has pointed out, critical to his reelection.)
. . .

All of which means the careful construction of attitudes that Hacker and Cohen describe, which formed the election campaign's true "inside story," generally fell outside the mainstream narrative put forward in the press. The public, offered the impression that they are being given a pathway into the inner sanctum, in fact is simply offered another constructed story carefully designed to reinforce the kind of attitudes campaign strategists have decided, in the real "behind the scenes" meetings, are critical to their candidate's success. What the public gets is mostly mummery and play-acting, and—for 51 percent of them at least—the chance to feel superior.

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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. ah yes, 9/11 "Democrats"
Aka, cowards.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Correct
All the people who think that Kerry should have walked all over Bush obviously don't know too many Republicans. To us, of course, Bush is the last person we'd ever vote for. But most Republicans (aside from the Lincoln Chafee and Pat Buchanan types) see Bush as a great President, perhaps one of the greatest ever. Some of the fundamentalists have him all bound up in odd notions about religion, such as when Pat Robertson was urging the invasion of Syria to spark armageddon.

These people are far, far more common than the Kerry bashers are willing to admit. The minds of these people will never change. I really never thought Kerry (or any Democrat) would win. It was only in the later stages of the campaign that I felt even a glimmer of hope. I of course supported Kerry. I was inspired by the convention, and listening to Kerry and Edwards speak, all the while knowing in the back of my mind that they didn't have much of a chance to win.

When the Kerry bashers talk about all the problems Bush had to overcome, they should remember all the challenges the Kerry campaign faced, starting with the kind of people you talk about in your post.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. He'd never consider himself a scared little rabbit
who is being manipulated by fearmongering, either. It's amazing how little insight these poor dolts have.

That's why a simple "I can't support such an unchristian agenda" gets them every time.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Do what ever you can to get him away from FAUX news
Sitting in front of O'Reilly is what changed him.
It is like a drug addiction, the man needs help.
He thinks all things changed because of 9/11 because FAUX news has drilled it into his head.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. I thought it was just Dennis Miller
Actually, my reaction for months was, I was suddenly glad GW(eventhough I voted Gore) was president because I wasn't srue Gore would have done anything about terrorism. Then you start to get some perspective back after the initial shock. For one thing, let's be real, 3000 people die in a terrorist attack, you're going to do something about it as president. I don't care who you are. Then it came out that they were using Richard Clark's plan to invade Afghanistan. Then GW invaded Iraq, which I thought was really crossing the line. Then he proceeded to do absolutely everything else precisely wrong on every issue. I can't believe I was glad for even two seconds that that ass-hat is president, but I can maybe see where people got that idea. btw- To answer your question, I don't know anyone like that guy.
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isit2008yet Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
9. It wasn't 911 that cost Kerry the election...
It was the fear mongering by Bushco that got them reelected. They scared many voters with lines like, "you don't vote for us - we may get hit again." Stupid voters didn't realize they already got hit once by this administration because they had their heads up their asses.

MSM likes to say it was moral values but those exit polls put moral values second to a combined total for the Iraq war and terrorism. Why those pollsters separated those two questions is beyond me. Its got the Dems out there quoting Bible versus on news shows and Clinton kissing George's ass. This party is f--ked up!
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Dawgs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Maybe I'm the only one, but I know many people like this...
They just don't want to believe that Bush isn't protecting us.
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. Half the people I work with
It's mindboggling.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:47 AM
Original message
9/11 changed everything for me
It marked the day I started on the road towards Liberalism.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Does he approve of how Bush "handled" 9/11?
Edited on Mon Mar-14-05 10:58 AM by Bridget Burke
Sitting there like an idiot while people in NYC were deciding whether to jump & die or wait for the flames to kill them?

What does he think about Bush's cowardly flight, after he finally left the school? If he'd really been in danger, he would have been endangering all those children & teachers.

What does he think about Bush & co. receiving security warnings for months but doing nothing to protect our country? At the VERY least, they are guilty of criminal incompetence.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. according to his new friends, the republicans
he is living in sin. it is a sin to marry someone of another race

simple as that

these are the people he embrace. these people will to his face say he and his wife are going to hell. if there is nothing else that bottom lines what a fool he is, i just dont know
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dollars to Doughnuts he listens to Rush Limpballs.
Edited on Mon Mar-14-05 11:23 AM by SmokingJacket
That's where the brainwash thing happens.

An ordinary unbrainwashed person watches Faux news and just laughs and laughs.

Suddenly, after a few hours of mindmelt from Pigboy, it begins to makes sense...
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
17. Call him what he is: COWARD. If 9/11 changed everything, ENLIST!
If not, shut the F up! Tell him.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. Lakoff tells it like it is:
He made the jump to Strict Father morality in his political frame.
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