"Soldjas", hip hop, Malcolm X and the Slave Mind....

[liberalitch]

Is it this white lady crazy or does anyone else see what Malcolm was talking about when they look at hip hop culture?

[donsu]

1. what did Malcom say about hip hop?

nt

[liberalitch]

3. Nothing because it wasn't out yet....

I was drawing a similarity between the group think common in hip hop and the type of group think in the slaave mind.
Then: "I will find power/respect in acting, looking, dressing for white or by exhibiting those characteristics that whites find 'charming' in blacks"

Now: "I will find power and respect by blasting music that offends, dressing in ways that will insure that I remain unemployable, using language that is sexist and racist and by striking fear into the heart of my community by being primitive and violent. I am a loose cannon."

[kittenpants]

11. by assuming any persona

people are attempting to gain power or respect. I guess I don't see why you select these two to compare... because they are so different from each other? maybe I just don't know enough about your reference.

[misanthrope]

2. You're not alone...

...Along with others, I see hip hop culture, and in particular the whole "gangsta'" genre, as modern day minstrelsy.

I find it no coincidence that Spike Lee's "Bamboozled" is still pretty much ignored to this day, though it's easily as salient as "Do the Right Thing," "Jungle Fever" or "School Daze."

[liberalitch]

4. And, most completely miss the point of "Clockers"..

Have you seen "Sucker Free City"?

It's great!

[Magrittes Pipe]

7. Uh.... The house band in "Bamboozled"...

...is hip-hop band The Roots.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

68. And their leader is positive HipHop MC Mos Def

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

8. Oh - you weren't speaking about "that part", I see.

Carry on then.

:eyes:

[liberalitch]

10. be sure you read my post on edit....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. I read your post.

[RandomKoolzip]

9. Don't listen to much non-mainstream hip hop, do ya?

Thinking that modern mainstream hip hop expresses the heart and soul of the culture is about as accurate as thinking all white people look like the guys in Korn.

[liberalitch]

12. i try to listen to what my kids are listening to.....

before the vomit wells in my throat.

sorry, I'll side with sharpton on this one

Oh, and I don't like Korn either (...or phish)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. You can side with whoever you want. But you're throwing out the baby with

the bathwater in a very racist way.

[RandomKoolzip]

22. Not just racist, classist as well.

The ranks of working class white/non-black dudes who consider themselves as part of hiphop culture (and the black dudes who embrace them) is growing.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. In all the elements of Hip Hop culture: graffiti/art, dancing, fashion,

etc.

[RandomKoolzip]

30. Exactly.

And I just heard some of Aesop Rock's new stuff recently. Amazing. We're at the stage right now where the succesors to the culture are doing the important work, just like in Rock in the mid-60's when the Beatles and Dylan were improving on their sources.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. You should see the graffiti (or public art) being done in Belgium and

Spain - astonishing stuff.

[liberalitch]

31. And so are the ranks of young Black (and white) men in prison..

oh, yea morgues are a popular place to "chill" these days.

No I am not a racist.
No I don't hate poor whites.
I am a realist.... Liberals can be realists too ya know!

Just tired of burying kids.... Damn it!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

42. What? You are making some outrageous statements.

Do you equate HipHop culture with black on black crime and prison populations? The baby with the bathwater - as I said before.

[ultraist]

63. The disproportionately high numbers of black males in prison is due to

INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM

I am amazed at some of the remarks I have read here on racial issues. sheeesh.

Blaming hip hop for institutionalized racism shows a gross lack of education or insight on this issue.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

65. I could never have said it better myselff.

Thank you.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[ultraist]

74. Are you unfamiliar with the term institutionalized racism?

The real cause of the disporportionately high numbers of black male incarceration rates.

INSTITUTIONALIZED is the operative word here. Think about why a much higher percentage of blacks get the death penalty. Or why a young black male with a small amount of crack gets a much harsher sentence than a white person with a greater amount of cocaine (same drug).

I didn't say anything about socioeconomic behavioral influences of the "convicted."

[Name removed]

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[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

79. as would blaming Hip-Hop

[ultraist]

82. The reason there is a DISPORPORTIONATLEY high number of blacks

in prison is due to RACISM. YES. Denying racism exists is IGNORANT.

Why do you think there is a dispoportionately high number of blacks in poverty? Gaps in education and income? Because blacks are stupid and lazy or due to RACISM?

http://www.ethicalego.com/incarceration_rates.htm

With those social myths dispelled, Americans still must explain a social policy that incarcerates 1 of 12 "black" men, 1 of 36 Hispanics, and 1 of 93 "white" men. Even the incarceration rates for "white" men are high for self-governing free people. The 7.4 times higher rate for "black" men is socially destructive for them and for American culture.

Racial injustice and unequal racial incarceration rates have been normal patterns in American history. There is every reason to believe that current rates only continue those old patterns. There is no other reasonable explanation.

Those continuing patterns of racism do not surprise me. History shows that human groups tend to continue old beliefs and practices until something motivates them to change. They change when it’s in their best interest to change.

Statistics provide evidence that indicts America for its abhorrent social policies against racial minorities. In addition, they offer possible solutions for bad policy if one looks for them. Minority group members should invest more time and energy in an effort to change American society and less effort trying to identify outside of it.

[KnowerOfLogic]

91. There's more than one factor; it's not either/ or. I mean, is the

disproportionately higher number of males in prison due to institutionalized anti-male sexism? There are definitely cultural values out there that exist among every culture, for better or worse. To suggest that hip-hop or whatever is promoting bad values doesn't mean that you say that institutionalized racism doesn't exist and shouldn't be fought against and eliminated.

[ultraist]

95. "anti male sexism" WTF? "males" NO , it's BLACK MALES that are targetted

We are not talking about white males, we are talking about Black males being targetted. There are NOT a disporportionately high number of WHITE males in prison, considering males commit 90+% of violent crimes. White males are not an oppressed group. They do not experience sexism. UNfuckingbelievable that someone would even incinuate this nonsense.

NO, hip hop music is NOT WHY BLACK males are incarcerated at much higher rates than white males. If that were true, how do you explain inequities PRIOR TO HIP HOP? There is a historical trend of high incarceration rates of black males.

How convenient for you to leave out race and incinuate white males are victims of sexism. :eyes:

[Wat_Tyler]

14. No.

And it's futile to try and relate the thoughts of a man forty-years-dead to a cultural style that he never encountered. Who knows what Malcolm X would've thought of hip-hop?
Actually, I suspect he'd rather have liked Outkast.

[RandomKoolzip]

15. And the Coup.

While we're at it, what do you think Harry Truman would have thought about Indie-Rock?

[Wat_Tyler]

18. Hmm.

He'd have had Oasis interned, definitely.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

19. I think you meant indefinately

[RandomKoolzip]

20. That's a gimme.

Now: how about Adlai Stevenson and drum and bass? You think there'd be an affinity?

[asthmaticeog]

35. I think of Adlai as more a Post-Rock guy.

I think he'd be attracted to the cerebral intent of the likes of Tortiose, Aspera Ad Astra and Don Caballero. But I'm sure he'd fucking hate The Dianogah, because *I* hate them and I'm wildly projecting here. Kinda like the OP.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. I could see Malcolm enjoying Sun Ra

[RandomKoolzip]

38. It's a sure bet that Alf Landon would like that stuff too.

I'm sure he'd be collecting all of The Hong Kong's 7''s.

Maybe I'm just blue-skying here, but I have a feeling that Whittaker Chambers would be a rabid Swedish Death Metal freak, with a "RIP Euronymous" tattoo.

[asthmaticeog]

49. I know for a fact

that Oliver Wendell Holmes would have been a HUGE fan of Immortal.

http://immortal.battlegrim.net:8081/img/entrance/immortal.jpg

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

58. Guaranteed that Marcus Garvey would be a HUGE Gwar fan

[asthmaticeog]

67. So you meant Marcus Gwarvey, of course.

Ironically, he would have *hated* Burning Spear.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

70. too true. He would have beaten Winston Rodney senseless

[RandomKoolzip]

60. Thurgood Marshall would have a stack of

Leftover Salmon bootlegs as high as an armpit. I just KNOW it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. And Public Enemy, or Mos Def, Common, Talib Kweli....

[Vladimir]

73. ...Dead Prez, Pharoe Monch, Roots Manuva, Spooks, the Streets...

and I'm not in any way an expert on the topic. There is so much good hip-hop/rap/garage out there, you'd have to be trying fucking hard not to hear it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

77. What up man? Good to see you.

:thumbsup:

[Vladimir]

78. Nothing much

still trying to get my PhD somewhere... been too busy to post for a long time but things have gotten a little less hectic lately. :toast:

[maxsolomon]

21. there are 2 hip hops

one is cereberal, intellectual, artistic

the other is popular

i despise popular hip hop, from puffy to fitty, excepting missy elliot.

yes i'm white

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

24. Puffy used to be a great producer - Ready to Die and Craig Mack's Project

Funk Da World were stellar. Sadly he now sucks.

[liberalitch]

25. YES!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!

I'm surprised that hardly any people on this board can admit that!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. Have you been in any of the HipHop war threads?

:eyes:

[Wat_Tyler]

43. Admit it? For us to admit it would be for it to be true.

Sounds to me you're projecting your own feelings on to the board in general.

[RandomKoolzip]

26. THere's some truth in what you say.

just like in the early 70's when guys like the Band and Randy Newman and the Last Poets and Iggy Pop and Gil-Scott Heron were making important music and the charts were full of assorted Partridge Families and Hamilton, Joe, Frank, and Reynmoldses and BJ Thomases, etc.

Don't be fooled by the surface aspects of a culture. You need to dig deeper to get at the soul.

[maxsolomon]

28. by the way, love the situationist beetle bailey

scanned from lipstick traces, perhaps?

i'm stealing it from you!

[RandomKoolzip]

33. DING DING DING.

First DUer to correctly guess the source....One of my favorite books, and one of the top ten most important books of rock criticism ever writ.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

29. And , to more directly address the Malcolm X thing, in Jazz of his day

there were people moving towards the light - kindred spirits in a see of heroin and opression.

[DrGonzoLives]

32. If only those damn black people

would just assimilate into our culture, things would be just fine! :eyes:

[RandomKoolzip]

34. Zing!

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[kittenpants]

39. I think a lot of other ethnicities might disagree with that.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

45. If the point is that American White Culture has stolen from others then

I'd agree.

[liberalitch]

52. I'm not saying that there is no contribution....

and many of you are assuming that I don't admire other black music, literature, film.

So many of you are so ready to say I am forcing my views on this board... but try to differ from the liberal mainstream and... oh boy!

People are snowed into thinking that if it's edgy and confrontational its good.... and that may be
BUT.... you can not deny that the people who have their heads up their asses over this stuff are, as even Chris Rock would say (and he's a black guy), they are taking it too seriously.

...eh, like Brian Nichols.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

72. It's not just different from the "liberal mainstream" it's antithetical to

Liberal values. I don't see why you're surprised.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

40. YES!!!

You hit that one out of the park

[liberalitch]

44. Now now, if that's what I meant that's what I'd say....

I just don't see the appeal in this "cookie cutter" culture...
I want my nerdy, no cool shoes or jacket, no tracks n nails kids to feel good too and they don't because they are made to feel like they are less than they are by their own people.

What is the solution for these kids?
Sorry kid... you won't be accepted unles you stop doing well in school, show your undies, hit someone in the face who stepped on your shoes and if you're lucky this weekend maybe you can shoot someone who talks to your girl.... hey or maybe he'll shoot you.... it's the wild, wild west right!

You a soldier, that's right, tie up your ex and rape her.... when your on trial for that, shoot the judge and for good measure the court reporter... that bitch!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. Wow!

Just wow!

[RandomKoolzip]

47. Is this a poem?

If so, it's pretty good, if a bit reactionary.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

48. If it could rhyme I'd put a beat under it

[liberalitch]

54. Bah, dum, crash....

give it a ten if you could dance to it!

[Wat_Tyler]

50. Care to explain any of that?

Or are you suggesting that anyone who likes or plays punk music should shoot their girlfriend then kill themselves? Or anyone who likes or plays reggae music should be a crack-addicted homophobe who loves to randomly shoot off guns?
Hmm, people who see others not as individuals but as stereotypes. That seems awfully familiar.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

55. Yeah wasn't Malcolm X against that?

[liberalitch]

56. Oh no, I just don't t hink people want to see ANY...

relationship at all.... but there is one.

Sid Vicious was wrong too and yes there was that element to punk.... I should know I still have the scars!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

64. Are you a free thinking person or can you not tell the difference between

a song and reality?

[RandomKoolzip]

66. If you took punk MUSIC at its word and hurt yourself or others

physically, then you have deep-seated emotional issues that have nothing to do with music. As Frank Zappa pointed out during his testimony at the PMRC hearings in 1985, any citizen can be set of onto an anti-social pattern of behavior if they are already predisposed to anti-social behavior. Any stimulus can set them off. It could be a "chair.... or your tie" that does it.

Blaming it on music is the lamest form of cop-out, and an admission that one cannot differentiate between fiction and reality.

There is no sound you can make that can turn a human into a socail liability unless that human already is prone to anti-social behavior.

[maxsolomon]

51. "i ain't goin' out like that"

the gansta is not particular to hip hop. narco ballads in tejano music, the rude boy in rock steady, the glorification of western gunfighters & outlaws (i.e. pretty boy floyd) in western ballads.

this "i'm hard" shit is just a logical extension of the phenomenon into our guns & bling contemporary culture.

when the law come in
how you gonna go?
shot down on the pavement
or waiting on death row?

-clash, guns of brixton

at least we condemn the murdering rapist. unless he's rich.

[liberalitch]

59. These kids are all lost in the supermarket!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

61. Huh?

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. You dare invoke The Clash

for this racist trash? How far we've come...

[maxsolomon]

62 posts. now you know.

that's how long it takes for a white person trying to have an honest discussion of race to get called a rascist.

please try to distinguish between RACISM, which implies malicious intent, & BIGOTRY or PREDJUDICE, which all are guilty of to a degree, in the future. liberalitch is not a RASCIST, or she wouldn't have dared broach this subject. that she even knows what Malcolm X said about anything means that she DOES know SOMETHING about black culture. not many caucasoids even know who Malcolm X was.

and i hope that you aren't calling ME a rascist, because i made the same point using the Clash in post 51 that you do in post 80.

[alcibiades_mystery]

94. Uh, excuse me, sir

I never called liberalitch a racist; rather, I called her line of reasoning racist, which it most surely is. I don't think people are racist. I think racism works through people. And I certainly don't buy your distinctions. One can know very well about Malcolm X and still spout racist opinions: there's nothing very strange there.

Spouting absurd claims is not, in my book, seeking honest discussion. And to present liberalitch's bizarre diatribes in this thread as an attempt at honest discussion seems patently dishonest.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. Absolute racist drivel

Unbelievable stuff, liberalitch. Really disturbing proclivity for false connections.

And don't play some martry card like you're valiantly departing from "liberal" orthodoxy. You're departing from intellectual dignity and basic decency, and that is neither brave, valiant, nor worthy of respect. Disgusting opinion.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. LOL

n/t

[ultraist]

69. I disagree liberalitch

Reading list for you:
http://www.library.cornell.edu/olinuris/ref/resources.htm

That's the Joint! is a good starting point on understanding the relevance of the Hip Hop in the Black Arts movement.

Gangsta Rap is one genre and to use a negative criticism of this one form to draw conclusions about Hip Hop in general is an oversimplification that omits important facts.

I think you have drawn a false conclusion about an entire movement that very much empowers blacks based on a myopic view point.

[Blue-Jay]

76. Ya know - People said the same sort of things about

the jazz culture less than a century ago. "Jungle music", they called it. "Makes people want to HAVE SEX", they said. "DRUG USERS!", "CRIMINALS!" and on and on and on...

Sound familiar, yet?

The music itself is not the problem, and never HAS been. You've put the proverbial cart before the horse. Music is not and has never been the cause of social unrest. The music is the result.

[alcibiades_mystery]

80. Do you know anything about black culture

Black culture has its bad muthfacka image just like white culture does. Clint Eastwood gets an Oscar or two, Arnold Schwartzenegger gets to be governor, but the black bad muthafuckas get shit all over by know-nothing white folks who are obviously very fucking clueless.

Is the bad muthafucka image in general a bad thing? Hmm. I don't know. It says something about masculinity. Think Achilles if you think it's a new phenomenon. Of course, masculinity is not independent of race, and sociohistoric factors in race-relations play a part in how it is worked out culturally. But some white lady just thinks its bad bad bad. I'd rather see cogent evaluations from people who know what the fuck they're talking about.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

81. ***Applause***

[ultraist]

83. **standing ovation**

;)

[cassandra uprising]

84. to rif on that insight

i've often felt conflicted about enjoying bands that have created intelligent lyrics and sextist lyrics. say the roots for example. i'm not going to stop listening to them because of they have a song that i find offensive. and i think as a feminist, that oppression is cyclical and a man wouldn't need to oppress a woman, if he himself wasn't being oppressed.

while this by know means justify it the act, in this no easy answer topic, it's important to note how misogyny becomes a means to assert ones power.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

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[alcibiades_mystery]

87. Oh, an exception

I guess I'm wrong...

[Name removed]

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[alcibiades_mystery]

93. Funny how all your examples

are from the last ten years.

Point is that the bad muthafucka is a cultural trope that gets taken up again and again. That some white folks find it terrifying when it appears in black culture, and endearing when it appears in white culture, should be clear enough. That these things are changing is also clear. That the original poster has no idea about any of it is crystal...fucking...clear.

Also interesting that you don't challenge the lurking distinction between the white bad muthafuckas, who are heroes, and the Denzel Washington character who played a criminal, dirty cop. Pretty far cry from bad muthafucka Dirty Harry, no?

[Name removed]

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[Stop_the_War]

88. Denzel is a rich actor. The vast majority of African-Americans

are not rich actors. Thus there is a difference.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[Wat_Tyler]

86. The bad muthafucka image certainly isn't new.

You can trace it back to Staggerlee, at least.

[ultraist]

92. Staggerlee, Stack o lee, Stag o Lee folktale

excerpts:
http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/stagroot.htm

Stagger Lee: A Historical Look at the Urban Legend
by Tony Kullen MUS 199, March 9, 1997

Blues music is a form of African-American folk tradition. It traces it's roots to Africa and the Christian/Gospel influence of the slavery era. As with all forms of folk expression, it relies heavily on traditional myths. Certain characters come back again and again. Blues performers would either copy a previous version (though they would still probably claim authorship), rework the old story to suit their style, or add to it to put a new twist on the story. One such character who shows up all over blues tradition, and, from there, into blues recordings, R&B, rock and roll, and folk tales is Stagger Lee. Variously spelled Stack O'Lee, Stag O'Lee, Stack a Lee, Stackerlee, Skeeg O'Lee, and others, usually based on the producers attempt to phonetically spell the character's name,note 1 was always a bad man. Julius Lester, in his Black Folktales, said, "Stagolee as, undoubtedly and without question, the baddest nigger that ever lived. Stagolee was so bad that the flies wouldn't even fly around his head in the summertime, and snow wouldn't fall on his house in the winter." note 2 Though this seems like extreme hyperbole, it is actually falls right in line with the way most authors/lyricists described Stag. With such a bad character to write about, blues singers had little difficulty with giving Stag all sorts of characteristics. Like "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" for rock, Stagger Lee was a song which everyone in blues played. There are at least 63 documented recordings, and there are probably more, as well as countless unrecorded live versions. A list of recordings of Stagger Lee is like reading a who's who in blues, with such names as Jesse Fuller, Mississippi John Hurt, Furry Lewis, Mississippi Slim, Ma Rainey, and others. With so many versions, tracing the history of Stag is somewhat difficult. Everyone seems to have an answer as to the origins of the tale, but most sources contradict each other.

Though Stagger Lee is primarily a character of song, he returns in other forms of African-American artistic expression. Julius Lester's compilation Black Folktales includes a telling of the Stagolee story. His version is a short story which is, by far, the "baddest" version of the story. Stagger Lee was a member of the urban blues tradition

Though Stag was an urban creature (the historical "Stag" Lee Sheldon lived in St. Louis,) his myth and legend certainly spread both throughout the whole country and through the various contemporary and later forms of popular music. Though it seems like a rough story which would usually scare some performers away, many performers do it simply because it is an accepted form. People don't overreact to his violence as they do in other songs because it has so much history and tradition. Also, most performers show interest in Stag but don't really defend his actions. The only person to ever openly promote Stag was Bobby Seale, a Black Panther and not a singer or performer. He "named his son after Stagger Lee, who he said was a positive role model for black men." 1

[Moderator]

99. Locking

This has turned into a flame war

DU Moderator