what is the point of public education?

[ulysses]

What is it that we want out of it? An enlightened populace, to the point possible, capable of carrying on a representative democracy? National economic advantage? People who can remember what Teapot Dome was when they're thirty? What? Why do we do it?

(on edit: those who are less familiar with my posts may want to know that I am, at a minimum, an advocate of public ed.)

[shraby]

1. If you don't know, it's pointless to tell you.

[ulysses]

4. I have a pretty good idea.

I'm asking for others' ideas, though. :)

[Modem Butterfly]

51. Uly knows

Better than most of us.

But the point of a discussion is to hear the POV of others.

[ulysses]

52. thanks, and great avatar!

:D

[JanMichael]

2. Child Care.

So parents could go to work instead of staying home with the kids.

[redqueen]

3. Oh, my.

That's such a frightening answer!

:scared:

[JanMichael]

8. I was channeling a Republican.

My head hurts.

[redqueen]

11. Oh yes, I'd assumed so.

Alarmingly good imitation! :o

[Undercover Owl]

Sort of, but

the answer is more like:

so kids aren't running loose in the streets while their parents are at work.

[redqueen]

5. An enlightened populace, first.

Economic advantage, second.

At least that's my opinion.

:shrug:

[Ariana Celeste]

6. To breed soldiers and consumers, eom.

[ulysses]

7. we can do that w/out mandatory public ed. though. n/t

[jdj]

16. to cleanse people of the idea they can't just stay up in the hills

and be bootleggers on land they still own.

[ulysses]

17. not sure how public education does that.

We've been at this for a while now, and there are still folks up in the hills doing their thing.

[jdj]

24. but they hafta go to school.

[ulysses]

28. they have those in the hills.

Besides, there's always homeschooling.

[Ariana Celeste]

30. I know,

that has just always been my intial response to that sort of question. Reason being, for example, that when it comes to teaching history they glorify the US and leave out so many important facts. For example, leaving out a ton of info on Vietnam so that many people my age don't realize what a faulty senseless war it was. Or leaving the Chinese and Italians out of WW2 and only mentioning the Japanese in so far as mentioning Pearl Harbor. That's just a couple I can think of right now.
Then you have Channel One, full of propaganda and advertisements for soda and snacks.
You aren't taught to think outside the box unless you have a really good teacher.

[ulysses]

32. fair points.

Don't even get me started on Channel One...

[SmokingJacket]

9. Necessary for democracy, first.

Grand ideals about the advancement and education of the people, second.

Then economic advantage.

[K-W]

We should have a public education because it is the only way to ensure

equal(ish) access to education for all. The assumption is that an education is of great value.

[ulysses]

12. let's have that discussion, then.

Is it of great value?

[ultraist]

10. As it stands, it's to socialize (ie brainwash) children into being...

obedient, compliant, tax paying worker bees. Our educational system is based on the industrial age. It's very outdated.

[shraby]

14. If there wasn't public education, many

people would not be able to afford to educate their children. Note England in the 17-1800s. With only wealthier people provided with access to schooling, it's not long before we have only the wealthy running the country....oh-oh we have that.

[ultraist]

58. I in no way suggested we shouldn't have public education

I stated our public education system is outdated and uses propaganda to brainwash our children.

[MichiganVote]

13. To encourage citizenship and knowledge needed to function in a civil

society.

[ulysses]

15. but what knowledge is required for that?

What is it that we need to know for a civil society to function?

[MichiganVote]

18. The core subjects for those w/average intelligence

Information about the history of the country and government to promote how to function as a citizen. Lifeskills for those who are unable to function indep. without training.

[MichiganVote]

19. Asking...

what we need to know to personally function in a civil society is a different question from asking what knowledge we need for a civil society to function.

[ulysses]

22. while I see your point,

they both seem to me to be reliant on the same knowledge base, more or less.

[MichiganVote]

31. Maybe. But it begs the question(s), what is a civil society...and...

why do we want one?

[ulysses]

34. indeed it does!

So...what is it? For me, it has to incorporate reason as a foundation.

[MichiganVote]

45. Yes, you are an educator so reason is important to you..

however for many others, reason is less of an impetus for the maintenance of a civil society than say, having order for commerce, jobs, profit, and so on. Yet each of these will depend on personal or professional skills derived from some form of organized education.

[ulysses]

49. but commerce depends on reason

for the maintenance of a rational state of things.

[MichiganVote]

53. Commerce depends on the absence of reason too

Consider the rise of "reality shows". Do people view these shows for the display of reason? How about the latest gizmo or gadget, are people interested the purchase of these products out of their sense of reason? Women who love to own 20 or more pairs of shoes. Reason?
Men who adore the next toy. Reason?

[ulysses]

54. I bow to your point. One in my favor, though -

By "commerce" I had more in mind larger transactions and the general rules of the marketplace. The marketing behind all these damned reality shows and all this consumerism is very much based in reason, brutal as it may be.

[MichiganVote]

56. Classical reasoning was the basis behind public education, however.

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/roots_in_history/choice.html

[Book Lover]

20. To provide an certain level of education to

those who cannot afford or will not pay for private, for-pay/for-profit education; or for those who cannot or choose not to homeschool.

Not that I have a puppy in this discussion; my child will be homeschooled.

[Mend]

21. to keep the kids out of rug-factory slavery

[ulysses]

25. so...job skills?

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. That would be my best answer

the purpose of public education is to prepare kids for life as independent, self-supporting adults, able to contribute to society.

[Mend]

43. not exactly...kids were used as slave labor

in this country, on farms and in factories, until we made it mandatory that they attend school.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. From Jefferson's pappers

“At every of these schools shall be taught reading, writing and common arithmetick, and the books which shall be used therein for instructing the children to read shall be such as will at the same time make them acquainted with Graecian, Roman English and American History.”

[ulysses]

26. ok, but to what end?

[UdoKier]

29. All of those things, PLUS

a capable work force.

[SoCalDem]

33. It's not altruistic. It should be to achieve an educated populace

so that all people have a minimum level of understanding of how the world "works"... so all can read...can understand math, so they do not get ripped off...can get a paying job..

what it has ended up being??

1)
storage facilities for juveniles while Mom & Dad work their asses off to provide for the family..

2)
a social club for young people to meet other young people and show off their fancy duds

3)
a gathering-place for pepsi drinkers or CocaCola addicts..a place to be test=marketed to

4)
a place for young athletes to be trained, so they can move seamlessly into the gladiator arena of big-time sports

5)
a "mill" where the wheat is separated from the chaff..the "winners" go on to "higher education", where some will succeed and others will work for the "winners"


rinse & repeat

[JitterbugPerfume]

35. The purpose of public Education?

So our kids wont be such dumb asses

[EVDebs]

36. Bill Gates say H.S. education is 'obsolete' so outsource us all !

He said high schools must be redesigned to prepare every student for college, with classes that are rigorous and relevant to kids and with supportive relationships for children.

"America's high schools are obsolete," Gates said. "By obsolete, I don't just mean that they're broken, flawed or underfunded, though a case could be made for every one of those points. By obsolete, I mean our high schools _ even when they're working as designed _ cannot teach all our students what they need to know today."

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050227/ap/d88gh7do0.html

Only about 25% of the population even goes to college, but now we're all supposed to. How we going to pay for all that without a 'GI Bill' for Joe Sixpack ?

Let's ask Bill sometime.

[ulysses]

38. I say that Bill

is talking out of his ass. He's welcome to come sub in my class some time.

[MichiganVote]

47. But why must schools teach "all" our students what they need to know

And since when should the opinions of a billionaire whose products inhabit nearly every schoolroom be the last word on what constitutes student knowledge?

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

37. Historically

I believe our system is modeled on the Prussian system, which was developed as part of a national modernization program with the end of defeating Napoleon. The central idea was efficiency; to give no one any more knowledge than they needed to do their part in the war effort. For some reason this nifty concept caught on in America when we had no enemies to speak of, and we can still see the results in our system today.

So, at least as it stands, I would say that education serves to instill an authoritarian mentality and impart a few basic skills that are needed for the military/industrial machine to function.

[ulysses]

39. I keep hearing this idea

but I'm not convinced. Help me out here.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

44. If you have time to control-F "Prussia"

Here's a conservative site:

http://www.christianparents.com/ed000001.htm

and a seemingly liberal one:

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

that say basically the same things. I don't think the historical Prussianization of education in America and its lasting effects are things anyone disputes.

On edit: If you don't like these sites Google "public education Prussia United States"--they're just the first that came up in this search. Or check out Christopher Lasch's 1991 book referred to in the first link.

[Trillo]

40. I'm not a teacher...

but my answer would be for punishment.

Sorry, it's pretty much all I experienced in schools.

Clearly, it's not about job skills (at least not HS education)
Nor about cooperation, since school administrations favor command and control.
Nor job skills, since many talented students are specifically taught their talents are "worthless" though many devious and manipulative methods.
Nor is it about having a functioning democracy, because clearly we no longer have one, given the rigged elections.
It's not about truth seeking, clearly those who rise in our society could care less about the truth.

Oh, crap, I'm getting depressed, gotta end this right now and go out into the sunlight and recover....

[Cleita]

41. What's the motto of the Negro College Fund?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste? How many children are robbed of achieving their full potential because they didn't have access to the best education that would have developed that potential in spite of their parents lack of resources to help them?

[ulysses]

42. check this out if you haven't seen it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x1647

Their stories revealed that scores of mostly black and Latino students in Houston were held back in the ninth grade for several years, enabling them to avoid taking the tenth-grade graduation exam, a test that had been diluted over time to include many questions better suited to sixth- through eighth-graders. Children who repeated ninth grade ended up dropping out in large numbers, and only half the students who did graduate went on to higher education. Not exactly the stuff of miracles.

[Cleita]

46. We recently had an administrator from our local school system

speak about what a burden NCLB is to the school system. I guess this is a way to choke public education to hand out vouchers to religious schools and eventually, those will be gone too and only the well-heeled will be able to educate their children. Thanks for taking us back to the nineteenth century Mr. Boosh.

[jedr]

48. question? When was (year) public education mandated?

and what was the mission statement at the time....have asked many people this question and can't get an answer...seems like about circa late 1860's to me...

[GettysbergII]

50. I believe the funding was set up as part of the Homestead Act (nm)

[MichiganVote]

55. There is a timeline on this site

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/roots_in_history/choice.html

[jedr]

57. Thanks! N/T

[GettysbergII]

59. Teachers for Social Justice

I've taught for the last 18 years in a 90+ poverty rate 100% African- American Chicago Public School (elementary and middle school) where the building is falling down around us but the school climate and dedication of the staff is as good as any school in the country. We are all very sick of the NCLB bullshit and the relentless negative propaganda the right wing 'foundations' (Bradley Foundation, Heritage Foundation, Walton Foundation, etc) have been pumping out for the last quarter century. The funny thing about all those deeply concerned public school critics is that I never seen a one of them walk through our front door with their sleeves rolled up ready to volunteer or their wallet open ready to donate.

The Right Wing intends to dismantle public education to open up an allegedly $600 billion/year market to the likes of Walmart among others. As added bonuses they will destroy one of the last strong labor unions and stem 'the liberalization of the masses' for which they hold public education largely responsible for by replqacing the three R's (reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic with the privatised three S's (sitdown, shut up, and salute)

At any rate a local organization called Teachers for Social Justice has pretty well articulated what I and I believe the vast majority of public school teachers would like to see Public Education be about.

Here's the Short Version
http://www.teachersforjustice.org/basics.html
Curriculum and Classroom Practice should be:
1. *Grounded in the lives of our students.
2. *Critical.
3. *Multicultural, anti-racist pro-justice.
4. *Participatory, experiential.
5. *Hopeful, joyful, kind, visionary.
6. *Activist.
7. *Academically rigorous.
8. *Culturally and linguistically sensitive.

School-level Policy and Decision-making should support:
1. Collaborative and flexible curriculum.
2. Resources for thoughtful teaching.
3. Local, democratic decision-making.
4. School must address the whole child.
5. Multiple forms of academic assessment.

Principles of School Reform:
1. *Public schools are responsible to the community, not to the marketplace.
2. *Schools must be actively multicultural and anti-racist, promoting social justice for all.
3. *Curriculum must be geared to learning for life and the needs of a multicultural democracy.
4. *All children and all schools must receive adequate resources.
5. *Reform must center on the classroom and the needs of children.
6. *Good teachers are essential to good schools.
7. *Reform must involve collaboration among educators, parents, and the community.
8. *We must revitalize our urban communities, not just our schools.

Here's the Long Version
http://www.teachersforjustice.org/pages/PRINCIPLESexplained.html

[ulysses]

60. I meant to thank you for this last night.

This is particularly important...

8. *We must revitalize our urban communities, not just our schools.

Yes.

[GettysbergII]

62. You're most welcome! The full text on urban communities is:

http://www.teachersforjustice.org/pages/PRINCIPLESexplained.html

*We must revitalize our urban communities, not just our schools. Joblessness, poverty, substance abuse, and sub-standard housing affect our schools, and massive and ongoing intervention is necessary to address these conditions. Schools can also be centers for community support and renewal by serving the entire community with a variety of recreational, educational, cultural, job training, and social service programs. Working together, schools, labor unions, community groups, religious congregations, and civic leaders can boldly address problems that are too large for any one group to solve on their own.

[seabeyond]

61. my 9 year old wonders too

he would prefer to just sit under a tree and read and read and read all the stuff he interested in and educate himself

to begin reading writing and math are good starts. science and history. and creativity...........

from there, total diversity and individuality and free thinking.

do we nessecarily get that from public school, i dont ask school to give all to my child. i feel as a parent i have some to do with it too. my job, and this is what i give my children, the school is a filler

[FreedomAngel82]

63. Here's my answer

so us normal folks can have a chance to make lives for ourselves. A lot of my friends in high school were really brilliant. One now goes to a really good school in Alabama for engineering. People have a chance to become their dreams and take care of themselves and/or family. :)

[hedgetrimmer]

64. Control, that is the point... please read.

~SNIP~
The Makers of Modern Schooling

The real makers of modern schooling weren't at all who we think.
Not Cotton Mather or Horace Mann or John Dewey.
The real makers of modern schooling were leaders of the new American industrialist class, men like: Andrew Carnegie, the steel baron... John D. Rockefeller, the duke of oil... Henry Ford, master of the assembly line which compounded steel and oil into a vehicular dynasty... and J.P. Morgan, the king of capitalist finance...

Men like these, and the brilliant efficiency expert Frederick W. Taylor, who inspired the entire "social efficiency" movement of the early twentieth century, along with providing the new Soviet Union its operating philosophy and doing the same job for Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany; men who dreamed bigger dreams than any had dreamed since Napoleon or Charlemagne, these were the makers of modern schooling.

Want more?
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm


Are you familiar with Gatto? Here is a ~SNIP~ from his biography:

" He climaxed his teaching career as New York State Teacher of the Year after being named New York City Teacher of the Year on three occasions. He quit teaching on the OP ED page of the Wall Street Journal in 1991 while still New York State Teacher of the Year, claiming that he was no longer willing to hurt children. Later that year he was the subject of a show at Carnegie Hall called "An Evening With John Taylor Gatto," which launched a career of public speaking in the area of school reform, which has taken Gatto over a million and a half miles in all fifty states and seven foreign countries. In 1992, he was named Secretary of Education in the Libertarian Party Shadow Cabinet, and he has been included in Who's Who in America from 1996 on. In 1997, he was given the Alexis de Tocqueville Award for his contributions to the cause of liberty, and was named to the Board of Advisors of the National TV-Turnoff Week."

You may learn more about Gatto here:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/aboutus/john.htm

I've always been down on school, both public and private. The reason may be that I was never any good at school or simply I did not like school. These may be the first off starts... I was poor and went to a catholic grade school, I was harassed by both fellow students and faculty, getting by for reasons I don't understand (I did not study or do homework yet I was passed on)... I went to high school in Manhattan, a magnet school for art... In four years I failed sixteen classes and had to make them up during night school and summer school. I thought I was a failure, I felt dumb. Some time passed by and I decided to try college, but no four year school would touch me and I went to a community college as a fine arts major. I found out I was not dumb. I had a GPA of 3.98 and I was asked and inducted into Phi Theta Kappa (an international honor society)... At that point I decided that the way school is set up K-12 does not work. I've done some research and find that grade school as a whole is intended to crush the drive and spirit out of possible future entrepreneurs.

What I want public education to do is to teach how to think. Create a populace of free thinkers.

[The Animator]

65. O.K. This is just a theory, but ...

I beleive that pulic education is vital to the survival of a democracy.

When you live in a society that is ruled by a small number of elites, who make all the important decisions for you, public education is unecissary. The only knowledge you need in this circumstance is how to obey the orders they give you.

A Democracy is a government that makes it's decisions based on what it's citizens want. In a true democracy, the citizens hold the ultimate power of rule, representatives in public office must abide by the wishes of the people they represent. If those representatives do not follow the directives set forth by those who gave him power, then he will be removed from power, and a new representative shall be selected. The goal is to find a person who most closely matches your veiws on how things should be done, and then give him the authority to speak for you in your government.

It is for the public to decide what is best for their country, and by extension, for themselves. It stands to reason that if a citizen is going to be given the responsibility of determining the destiny of his country, he should have a solid understanding of the choices at hand, and there implications on him and his fellow citizens.

To be a good citizen of a democracy, one must be well informed about the inner workings of your government, the challenges faced by your representatives, and possible solutions to those challenges.

To be well informed, one must learn a variety of skills. This includes, reading, writing, mathematics, science, and free thinking. The last of these is the most important, it is one thing to learn facts, like dates, or names, or solutions to math problems, it is a whole other matter to be given an ambiguos mental challenge, with no clear right or wrong answer an be able to provide a solution on your own. Free thinking is absolutley necissary when dealing with challenges that have no clear solution or require a compromise.

Learning to read will allow you to read the papers, which publish the dealings of your government. The newspapers are the watchdog of your country, through them, you will see your representative at work, and you will know whether he is doing his job properly, and to your satisfaction.

Learning to write will allow you to communicate with you representative over long distances. You can reassure him that the decision he made recently was a good one, or you can berrate him for choosing poorly, you can tell him your stance on an upcomming vote, or if there is a challenge where non of the options available to him are desirable, you can offer a new solution.

Learning mathematics will allow you to make decisions regaurding the nation's economy, taxes, or budget. There are probably a host of other applications that mathematics can be applied too, but math was never my strong suit.

And Science... well it's just cool.

Public education (in theory) makes it possible, for the destiny shapers of tommorow, to learn, and grow into well informed, logical adults, capable of making sound decisions regaurding the future of their counrty.

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. The point ISN'T to educate, I can tell you that much.

It's essentially social conditioning. The aim is to produce workers, acclimated from an early age to regimentation, arbitrary rules, and unquestioning obedience to authority.

The public-education movement in the US really started in the 1840's, concurrent with industrialisation; it was found that the labour pool avalable weren't especially well-suited to industrial work, regimented and regulated by the clock...and cheap and accessible public education conditioned the population to regulated conditions as well as providing basic literacy and mathematical skill that served to enhance their value as employees.