I am Liberal, Atheist, and Pro-Choice : Terry Schiavo should live ....

[Trajan]

Terry Schiavo can live, and should live, with her parents ....

Sure, her husband can claim that she didn't wish to live in a 'persistent vegetative state', yet he cannot show, by other than anecdotal evidence, that these were truly her wishes ....

I understand her parents are willing to assume guardianship of her; is this correct ? ...

If this is so, than why not allow them to continue their relationship with their injured daughter, if this is their desire ? ....

She does not seem to be in any specific pain, and while her brain scans show little activity, her facial movements indicate at least some emotive impulse ...

Am I wrong here ? ... As Liberals, should we NOT promote a legal agreement that shifts guardianship of Terry to her parents, so they can continue to 'enjoy' whatever love they possess for her ? ...

[dogman]

1. If she had told you her wishes would you walk out on her?

She is not his property but she is not their property either.

[Trajan]

17. Even as I agree ....

Without a written declaration, such issues are difficult to enforce .... I understand her husbands desire to see his own wife's wishes granted .... Yet to do so would create severe hardship for her own flesh and blood ...

Momma and Dadda are ALWAYS Momma and Dadda; they always love you .... Spouses can seem 'burdened' by a long term illness of their betrothed ... Certainly a parent would question claims as he has made, even if they are true ....

It seems a horrible way to prove a legal point ....

[Warpy]

33. her "emotive" video was cherrypicked

The real story can be found on another thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3292852&mesg_id=3293588&page=

The dark areas are all cerebrospinal fluid. As you can see, even the areas that still have some tissue left are darkened by the presence of fluid.

She is simply not capable of thinking. She may feel, but she lacks the structures necessary to interpret those feelings as either pleasure or pain.

Her joints are contracted, her muscles atrophied.

The woman is essentially DEAD. She retains only brainstem function. Her movements and facial expressions are all random. She is not comatose. She is fully awake, and this is all she has left.

As for her wishes, she also told a sister as well as her husband.

While her parents may cling to having an oversized infant on tube feedings around forever, it's time that her wishes, which she confided to two different people, be honored. This has been examined both ethically and legally. She didn't want to be kept clinging to death. Her husband finally came to terms with letting her go.

I'm perfectly happy to respect his wishes and her wishes. Her parents need to come to terms with the fact that they've already outlived their daughter. The religious hysterics need to pray for a miracle, then crawl back under their rocks when they don't get one.

[Trajan]

197. It's a tough one ....

And I totally understand your position ....

I am saddened by all options .... cest la vie ....

I wonder: could I do the same ? .... Would I ? ... I dont know ....

I am a weak human being ....

[susanna]

251. As am I...

...which is one of the reasons my husband and I will be putting it in writing for one another, based on everything we have seen in this case. That way if such a horrific event does occur, our private pain over honoring one another's wishes is not made into a circus sideshow or used to fuel political agendas.

An admittedly strange take on the "think globally, act locally" mantra...

[Kipepeo]

271. well put

and I agree. I think most of the people arguing for her to be kept alive are doing it for selfish reasons, though they won't realize them as such because it is the selfishness of love or of empathy...I do not think it is in her best interest that they take this position.

[dogman]

50. That is why it has been through so many courts.

Are all of these judges in a conspiracy to do away with her? It has been adjudicated beyond reason. Mike could have easily taken the million dollar offer and walked away. I happen to think he respects her and her desire to die. What is in it for him to do otherwise?

[ldf]

239. sorry, this is NOT about "momma and dadda"

this is about terri, and the fact that she did NOT want to be kept alive like this.

spinning ain't gonna change that.

[Trajan]

244. So ....

ONLY the claims of a spouse matter in EVERY case, and those of parents do not ? ...

I dont buy that ....

Spinning ? .. you act as if I have been purposely concocting this thread to piss you off ..... Can a human being be troubled by this ?

[ldf]

254. if you can't see what is happening

here, then i obviously can't convince you.

my problem is everyone else trying to play god, and because of political agendas, NOT for terri.

there is absolutely nothing you can say that can convice me otherwise.

if that sounds like i have made up my mind, it is because i have. a long time ago, when this whole charade started to play out.

and it is the LAW that states the husband is the "family", in this issue. but since it runs against the rightwing agenda, it is now irrelevant.

i'm not going to waste my time listing all the points. they are in every thread. read them.

and if nothing else, why not listen to the physicians that have been involved from day one.

what pisses me off are these countless threads where the rightwing lies are passed off as truths. and in every thread the lies are exposed. but the same people just continue to repeat the lies.

THAT pisses me off. but it is right out of the republican playbook. repeat lies over and over. the end justifies the means. americans are stupid enough to eventually believe it. and guess what? we are.

:grr:

[blondeatlast]

2. Interesting, to say the least.

However, if we want marriage to be what we propose for non-traditional couples, it doesn't wash.

But I think I get the point, and you are definitely on to something...

[Frances]

3. As a parent of adult children

I learned long ago to respect their wishes.

If it was my child's wish not to be kept alive artificially (feeding tube)if the child was in a persistent vegetative state, then I would honor my child's wishes.

It seems to me that the parents are putting their own feelings above those of their child.

[roguevalley]

4. whatever she has probably comes from the brain stem. that's

hardly living. She said she wouldn't want this. I would hope someone would care about what she wants. As for proof, courts through the entire supreme court say that threshold has been met.

[Trajan]

28. 'Brain Stem Living' ....

Ah ... The Trimpey 'Beast Brain' .... AKA the 'Reptilian' brain ...

That little chunk of grey matter controls most of my life: hunger, sex drive and drug cravings ....

Sometimes I think it is all I need ....

Chuckles ....

[Spinzonner]

5. You make good points and I've had similar thoughts

but what if the decision did not literally involve enforced death and a persistant vegetative state but instead was one of life or death based upon a treatment or procedure.

In the courts the decision is as much one of who has the right to choose and who is responsible for a decision as the decision itself. Making choices on an action-by-action basis would invite litigations on a case-by-case basis.

[uppityperson]

215. Question regarding insurance companies willingness to pay for care

Insurance companies decide routinely if they will pay for health care for people. Their clients of course have the right to get the health care they need on their own if the insurance won't pay for, IF they can afford it. Will insurance companies be held more liable for providing all types care for their clients, or liable for the results if they don't? My question stems from your comment as to who is responsible for choosing what care is given. Perhaps this needs a topic of its own? Thanks.

[Riding this Donkey]

6. Get ready for a million posts minimizing your position.

Many people here on DU think the right has made this political, and they have, but they neglect to see that their feelings about this are for their own political reasons as well, such as pro choice and dying with dignity.

I am a liberal, pro - choice, anti death penalty, right to die person myself, and I have the same feelings as you on this.

I separate this one case, it is a shame it has come to this!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

79. You're overlooking one significant aspect

When they married, they became each other's next-of-kin. That's what the marriage contract is all about.

Her parents are no longer her next-of-kin. Even if she died without a will - which I trust she will - whatever estate she has will first be dispersed to her husband in accordance with the intestate laws of Florida.

That's respecting the law, and, with all the irrational emotion involved, it's a private family matter into which none of us ever had any right to peek.

That's why my offer of a durable Health Care Power Of Attorney, with instructions, to DUers has, just today, brought me more than a hundred requests - and a lot of "Thank yous."

[GodHelpUsAll2]

148. OldLeftie

Can you have a durable health care power of attorney assigned to someone you are not married to or related to?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

181. I don't know what that means?

Let me try to guess what you meant.

Did you mean, "Can I execute a health care power of attorney and have someone to whom I'm neither related or married be named as the agent in charge of my care?"?

If that's your question, the answer is yes.

For instance, say I'm unmarried, and I want to execute this document, but I want my best friend to be the person who makes the decisions for me if I am unable to do that.

Sure, I can name anyone I want - but, I have to talk it over with them first, to make sure they know what my wishes are.

Did I answer your question? If not, try again, please. OK?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

210. yes

You answered it perfectly. That was exactly what I meant. I know who I want making my decisions if I can not. And I am neither married to them (yet) nor or they a blood relative. Thank you for the answer. I will have to get on that right away. It has been a question and somewhat of a delimma for a while.

edited for typo
I'm an awful typist

[OldLeftieLawyer]

234. We managed, didn't we?

OK, PM me your email address, and I'll send you a durable Health Care Power Of Attorney form, with all the instructions on how to execute it, and you'll be all taken care of.

OK?

(You're not an awful typist.........)

[GodHelpUsAll2]

257. OK....

I take it back. LOL I figured it out!

[ultraist]

281. You really should use state specific documents.

I posted a link further down the thread on this for state specific docs. State laws vary on Advance Directives. A limited power of attorney does not make your wishes known in writing.

Our Estate Planning attorney handled it for my husband and I, but you do not need an attorney for this.

[eridani]

178. Because you don't have the facts.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[Kipepeo]

272. And you neglect to see that for some of on this side

it is not just political but also personal...as it is for you.

I know MY strong reaction comes from the fear that this could happen to me, against my wishes and against my spouse's intent to carry out those wishes.

If nothing elese this has convinced us both to create living wills because I would never, NEVER, wish to be forced-alive in such a condition. It is not for me.

[chomskysright]

7. have ANY OF YOU WORKED W/ PEOPLE LIKE THIS???...

I have, many times, in hospitals, nursing them 'back to health.'

sHE'S fucking dead or brain dead which essentially is the same freaking thing.

this is a RED HERRING.

[Riding this Donkey]

11. Actually I have worked with them and I loved them just the same

I got to know each one in a different way.

[havocmom]

39. I've worked with them and knew of a handful who were sexually abused

by caregivers. One young lady had a child via that abuse. Yeah, that's a hell of a life sentence for someone who didn't do anything wrong.

Someone in a vegetative state is at the total mercy of their caregivers. As loving and wonderful as most are, there are predators in the job too.

And I am thinking her folks have a variation of Munchausen by Proxy. So when the red lights on the cameras go off, will they be as devoted? Will there be arrangements made for her care after they die if they had custody?

Lots of things to consider, but I wanna make sure my medical power of attorney is in order.

[Riding this Donkey]

46. So because someone else breaks the law we should punish

the victim because she can't speak, it is her fault that it happened and we would be better off, things like this wouldn't happen if there weren't people like that poor young woman alive.

Come one here.....that is no reason to with hold care and food and water from someone!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. It's not "food"

It's a mixture of chemicals that's piped into her gut.

Even the US Supreme Court has defined feeding tubes as "life support."

So, that argument doesn't fly here. She doesn't eat - she's medicated.

[havocmom]

200. I am not advocating punishing the victim.

I am advocating that we recognize the system often allows others to punish people who are defenseless by abusing them. Best keep all the consequences in mind whey you wanna make decisions for adults who can't make them for themselves.

And a feeding tube is a tube into the gut through which nourishing goo is funneled. It is also a frequent source of infection and pain. One more thing to consider when you are playing god and deciding not to punish someone by letting nature take its course.

It would be great if nothing bad ever happened. But here on earth, we need to face hard realities. Sometimes actions we think are a kindness have unexpected consequences which simply compound tragedy.

Look at the 'life' of someone who cannot control their body enough to be able to eat. Consider years of immobility, of bedsores evolving to ulcers and infections which often mean amputations. Consider the physical consequences of not being able to move and exercise. I have worked with people whose whole 'life' was a cycle of forced feedings, not enough range of motion exercise (budget cuts) to keep them from constant pain, the requirement of constant laxatives/enemas owing to bowel problems from inactivity, being pushed, prodded, rather harshly bathed, forced teeth brushing (often accompanied by nearly choking to death EVERY DAMNED DAY because the brain cannot tell the throat when to or not to swallow while some overworked aid works up plenty of foam from the toothpaste, and the patient cannot spit, so water is poured through the mouth with patient held to lean sideways to let the water rinse out rather than choke them again).

Yeah, if I am in a vegetative state, I would just as soon NOT have kind, but perhaps poorly informed, strangers determining that I should be forced to stay alive so that I not be further 'punished'. I would just as soon NOT be left to the tender mercies of strangers and institutions.

[blondeatlast]

20. I have, and I agree with you.

Children born with nothing but a brain stem, a child whose father literally drop-kicked her against the wall, another so malnourished that her brain did not develop properly.

I'm just sick that it has come to this. Let the poor woman rest in peace at long last.

[Beaverhausen]

25. I know several people who need machines/feeding tubes to live

My boyfriend is a nurse and several of his patients are very disabled.

No, they aren't "brain dead."

But knowing these people gives me second thoughts about this case.

[uppityperson]

226. I'm a nurse and have worked with techno-needing people, let her body die

They aren't all brain dead, or vegatative state, but all are obviously disabled. Some are alert, aware, alive in more than the chemical bodily processes. I would not let one of these die.

This case is different. The ones who have been vegatative need to be able to have their bodies die. The part of them that makes them them is not there. Their bodies need to die. Let it happen.

Finally, how bloody much money and resources has this taken? I know it sounds callous, but how many children died who could have gotten vaccines, or clean water, instead of continuing this maltreatment of 1 person. Resources are limited. Flu vaccine was limited, supposedly, this winter, so people were asked to not get them unless they needed them. Let the technology be used where it can actually do some good, not keep a vegetable alive.

[drdon326]

56. Sorry to disagree.....

By brain dead you mean comatose....she is NOT comatose.

She is in a vegitative state.

[uppityperson]

221. Yes and they should let the process happen

let her body die

[LisaL]

224. You have? Then you should know she is not brain dead.

Brain dead people do not breathe on their own, and she does.

[SW FL Dem]

289. So - she can breathe but she can't think

is that living?

[GodHelpUsAll2]

8. No we should not

promote legal agreement that shifts guardianship to her parents. Regardless of what "WE" think (for the record I believe the decision should be left to her husband) Terri married Michael. He is her legal next of kin. He has been in court numerous times and still the court rules that she would not want to be kept like this. Are you really prepared to have the government usurping the wishes of the one YOU choose to spend your life with and deciding what is and is not best for you? I for one am not.

[MichiganVote]

9. She is not a toy, she is a seriously damaged person with huge

health risks. Her husband has not been derelict in securing medical care for her. We don't keep people alive soley to pet them. This person's life has been lived, good, bad, or indifferent. Time for people to let go.

[Sandpiper]

10. Are you a Doctor?

I ask because I'm wondering on what you base this assertion:

her facial movements indicate at least some emotive impulse ...


Facial movements of themselves indicate nothing more than the firing of synapses that control facial muscles.


Your evidence for thinking otherwise is?

[Quixote1818]

38. Yes, the Doctor on the news said that their was no indication that

she would look at people. Her eyes were moving back and fourth randomly indicating she basically was no longer their.

[Trajan]

235. I admit I hadn't understood the profound depth of her disability ...

I dont have cable anymore, so I am off the 24/7 x 6 network news diet ....

All I have is you guys ....

[Trajan]

184. One might wonder whether those who can be 'proven' to possess 'emotion'

always display it ? ...

I agree that mere facial movements do not unto themselves indicate higher thought .... but is that what matters ? ... Mere coincidence could exist in this case ... But if even a FLICKER of true recognition exists in this case; then why not 'err' on the side of hope ? ...

She is her mother's and father's daughter .... IF she gets ANY enjoyment or solace WHATSOEVER from their companionship( which I have NO idea if she does or does not ...) , AND she is not in pain, then I see no reason why guardianship could not be transferred in this case .....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. I have VERY mixed feelings about this

What she wanted should matter. That she's married and he is her legal guardian should matter...but that she's been kept alive this long and will now die does matter as well.

[deek]

13. same here

I am a liberal, prochoice, antideath penalty, right-to-die person. I am also a strong advocate for disability civil rights.

[PittLib]

55. This is not a "disability"...

brain damage is ... brain death is not.

[ultraist]

69. She is brain damaged, that's what causes vegetative state

She is NOT brain dead. Her heart would not be beating as well as all of her other vitals.

[PittLib]

119. Even if I give you that, she has only the most base of function ...

I would still argue that it is not a disability - it is beyond disability. Would you want to be in her situation? Do you feel that you should be kept alive no matter what? My stepbrother is disabled, quadriplegic and on a vent. He is 100% mentally and it is not an easy situation, but he at least has choices and can live a life of quality. What is to be gained by keeping Terri alive? Do you believe that she is enjoying her life, trapped in a body that can only maintain her vitals? That is even assuming that she has some responsive capacity, which she doesn't. The only thing to be gained by this is the appeasal of her parents, who are thinking only of themselves.

edit for typo

[uppityperson]

229. Sorry about your bro, hope things go well for he and family

I'm a nurse who has worked with quads on vents, hope he has a decent life and gets good care and lots of love.

[PittLib]

265. Thank you ...

It is a difficult situation. His accident occurred in July of this past year. He is just 24 and has a 2 year-old. He does have a lot of love and support, although there is a lot of petty back and forth among the loved ones (namely his father, his mother and his girlfriend). Decisions are not always made based on his best interest, particularly by his mother. My stepdad tries his best, but has his hands full with a alzheimer stricken mother and a father who just passed away after requesting removal from life support. The home that he is in leaves a lot to be desired, but there is not much choice until he is weaned of the vent ... if it is a possibility. I think in a situation like this, so much of "recovery" is psychological. I remember my mother saying the phrase "the day we lost Tim" shortly after the accident - and I almost came unglued. We haven't "lost" him. He is all there - he's merely compromised. But he is the Tim we know. I wish the same could be said for Terri.

[ultraist]

236. So sorry about your brother

But legally, she is disabled, severely brain damaged. There are varying degrees of being disabled ("any medically determinable physical or medical impairment..."). Someone with a hearing impairment is legally disabled.

Disability:
For Social Security purposes, the inability to engage in substantial gainful activity by reason of any medically determinable physical or mental impairment that can be expected to result in death or to last for a continuous period of not less than 12 months. Special rules apply for workers aged 55 or older whose disability is based on blindness. The law generally requires that a person be disabled continuously for 5 months before he or she can qualify for a disabled worker cash benefit. An additional 24 months is necessary to qualify under Medicare.

[WoodrowFan]

165. one correction

you must not be "pro-choice" since the courts have found compelling evidence that Terri did not want to be kept in this condition. Since you are ignoring her wishes for your own emotional needs you can't really be pro-choice. Sorry.

[sonicx]

14. There are witnesses other than the husband...

that back up her wish not to live in that state.

Her movements are involuntary reflexes.

[Riding this Donkey]

21. Yeah, his brother and his brothers wife.............n/t

[sonicx]

22. and?

[Riding this Donkey]

27. and what? you can't get the jist? n/t

[sonicx]

30. what's your point?

do you have one?

[Riding this Donkey]

35. I think you got it.......

[sonicx]

36. nope, spell it out.

[Riding this Donkey]

40. nope, you think it out.................n/t

[sonicx]

43. so, you are saying you have no point?

ok, seeya.

[Riding this Donkey]

47. No i'm saying that if you can't read into it, my explaining it aint gonna

do anything for you.

[mondo joe]

61. It's very rude to make such oblique accusations. And slanderous.

But I guess that won't stop you.

[Riding this Donkey]

66. I felt he was trying to push me around and I didn't want to play!

and actually this post that I am replying to is slanderous to me.

[mondo joe]

77. And you still won't just make your accusation. Like those Swift Boat

guys. Or more like those who just made oblique references to them to smear Kerry.

[Riding this Donkey]

80. I hated those mother fockers...........don't be comparing them to me!

You are just a name caller when you don't get your way!

[mondo joe]

86. Then don't act like them by smearing Michael Schiavo or the other

witnesses.

[Riding this Donkey]

93. So I am a swiftie, but you don't see that what you just did to me

was exactly how they did it to Kerry?????

Stop with the ridiculous analogies...please!

[mondo joe]

95. I'm not the one with the oblique accusations.

And I can prove you're smearing Schiavo and the other witnesses - the proof is right there.

You can only offer oblique smears because you can't demonstrate any of it.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

111. Please specify your charge against the witnesses who heard Terri

say she didn't want to be kept alive on life support.

[Riding this Donkey]

112. Her mother, her father, her brother have testified to that. n/t

[mondo joe]

127. Her parents and brother were found to not be credible because their

testimony was so inconsistent and conflicting.

[Riding this Donkey]

134. So wasn't michaels you know.......the judge just chose to believe

one side over the other.

Michael never mentioned her not wanting life support when he was fighting for millions to help her recover. He needed all that money to care for her for the rest of his life. Years later he decides she doesn't want to live this way. You cannot deny that.

The judge didn't look at it that way. You see, many time the courts are wrong, just plain wrong, like all of the innocents that have been set free from death row with the help Barry Scheck.

[sonicx]

137. And he doesn't get the money

Now accusing him of being in this for money. He's not.

[Riding this Donkey]

141. He got caught up in it as far as I am concerned. He was probably hoping

it wouldn't take this long with the courts because now all of that money didn't go to terri, the judge allowed it to be used to fight in the courts to remove her feeding tube.

Something very very wrong here.

[sonicx]

145. He was offered money. He rejected it.

He's not in it for money.

[mondo joe]

277. How remarkable that the courts with the evidence are wrong

But you, with magical hunches, are right.

[LisaL]

256. He already spend the malpractice award money.

[ohio_liberal]

260. On her care

Her portion of the money was administered through a third party and all expenditures were approved by a judge.

[ohio_liberal]

138. Get off of it

They were trying aggressive therapies at the time that had no effect. There came a point where they all decided enough was enough. Stop reaching.

[mondo joe]

276. Incorrect. Read the case summary.

It's not a matter of simply choosing to believe anyone, but a body of evidence.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

53. You won't

get a straight answer. Too many people have watched this unfold in the media and have fell hook line and sinker for the Parents BS. Never once considering the fact that all of the allegations against Michael have been through the courts on countless occasions but the parent's "evidence" never stood up. Just once I wish people would take the time to actually reasearch the evidence instead of getting snipets from the news then spoting them as facts.

edited to state:

Does anyone at all find it a little odd that everyone involved trying to stop the wishes of her husband is asking for "Enough time to investigate the allegations?" How much time do they need? It's only been almost 16 years since this happened. And it's been through the courts for no less than 6 years. All that time is not sufficient to "prove" your case?

[WoodrowFan]

167. it's all a big conspiracy.

her point is that it's a conspiracy involving the husband, his family,m and apparently every court in Florida.

[DeBunk]

15. I think she should live too

It's more inhuman to starve her then to let her live. She isn't in pain so there is no reason not to let her die naturally.

[mondo joe]

44. She will die naturally when the feeding tube is removed.

[Riding this Donkey]

58. Really, I didn't realize that starvation and dehydration was natural?

What would happen to parents that did that to their children?

[sonicx]

78. She won't feel any pain.

[Riding this Donkey]

87. Can you prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Remember we don't believe in the death penalty, because there are always unknowns and mistakes can be made. So can you prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[mondo joe]

92. Can you prove she's not in pain now being kept alive like a zombie

for 15 years?

[Riding this Donkey]

116. You are the one who says she can feel nothing, absolutely nothing, what is

there to prove to you on that point.

[sonicx]

121. so you don't really care about Terri, huh?

[Riding this Donkey]

130. Circular arguments are really useless don't you think!

Of course I care about her and I am afraid she will feel the effects of starvation and especially dehydration.

[sonicx]

132. she won't

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barackmyworld]

101. there is sufficient medical evidence

that at her level of brain activity, one can not "feel" things like thirst or hunger. If you put her hand on the stove, she would not move.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

104. Riding

Have you ever actually witnessed someone die from having food and liguids with held?

[Blue_In_AK]

237. I watched both my mother and my father die...

...they did not eat or drink at the end, nor were they on life support. It was peaceful. I don't believe they felt any pain.

[sonicx]

106. We? some DUers believe in the DP. Second...

How about proving that the husband is lying instead of making baseless accusations?

[Riding this Donkey]

122. Her parents say he is lying, why do you so easily believe him and discount

them??

[GodHelpUsAll2]

124. Michael says differently

Why do you so easily believe her parents and discount her husband?

[Riding this Donkey]

146. That was basically my question reversed, so what is the

argument. I choose to believe her parents, you choose to believe the husband.

[sonicx]

152. The parents were found not to be credible.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

157. That's what I am asking you

I didn't choose to believe anyone. I choose to be content with what the courts of law decided without injecting my personal opinion in a personal matter of a family which none of them I know from Adam. So again i'll ask you. Why do you believe her parents and obviously believe that the courts are not quite as samrt as you?

[Riding this Donkey]

163. think about the death penalty, how many people have been

put on death row by the courts then found to be innocent through dna.

Obviously there were mistakes made.

I just don't put as much credence into the court of law, as you do.

[sonicx]

171. You still haven't explained why you believe the parents...

[Riding this Donkey]

185. Why do you believe the husband? Can you can answer that w/o

invoking the court system.

[sonicx]

188. Why won't you defend your position?

Explain why you believe the parents.

[Riding this Donkey]

201. Explain why you believe the husband......I

believe them because they are her parents.

I don't know about you, but my experience tells me that very few parents want to hurt their grown children.

But I have heard of many who have wanted to hurt their spouse.

They were married 5 years, not 25, #1.

She has siblings who don't want to see her starved to death, as well #2.

There are doctors who disagree with what the court has found. That is a fact, #3.

There was no living will, you have to go with your gut and I don't think that choosing death is the way to go when there are these questions.

I have already told you why I don't have much faith in the court system.

[sonicx]

211. The parents say they would keep the tube in even if...

Terri said she won't want it. They don't care about Terri's choice, so it shouldn't be in their hands.

[Riding this Donkey]

213. Please see post #209 for a response.........n/t

[GodHelpUsAll2]

198. I don't have a lot of faith

in the courts either. But they administer the law, and I do respect the law. But 15+ years have gone by. There has been ample time for her parents or whoever to PROVE their case. They have not. Terri has not got any better. She never will. Period.

Also, I take personal offense to people such as yourself trashing someone because of a decision to end a loved ones life. Why do I take offense? Because I have been there done that. Suprisingly enough the life was ended EXACTLY how Terri's will (provided congress doesn't stick their noses in any more). I sat in a hospital for 10 days. Night and day and watched my grandmother die after my mother and her siblings made the decision to with hold food and liquids and any other treatment. She dehydrated and her kidneys finaly shut down and she died. My Grandmother was not in a PVS. She was alive and well and talking and eating and drinking just 11 days prior to her death. She had a stroke, it effected her breathing. She was put on a breathing machine. That was turned off. She began breathing on her own. Labored breathing, but still breathing. She never woke up. The choice was, put in a feeding tube and send her to the nursing home and let her lie in bed like that until an infection or something along those lines killed her or stop all treatment and let her go. I helped my aunt remove the oxygen tubes and sat and waited. Thank God my mom and my aunts and uncles would not even hear of having this saint of a woman go through that for God knows how long. It took 8 days. No pain. no moaning, no groaning no nothing. Just a peaceful end to a horrid situation. I for one was greatly relieved that my grandmother was not "kept alive" and her suffering was stopped.

[Blue_In_AK]

248. That is exactly right, GodHelpUsAll2...

As I posted above, this is how my mother and father died, as they had requested. There was nothing horrible about it; they simply one day took their last breath. That is what people do -- they live, they die -- and at least to my way of thinking it is cruel to keep somebody alive in a vegetative state from which they will never recover. The deterioration to Terri's brain cannot be denied, and it cannot be reversed. It is humane to let her pass on to whatever lies beyond.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

253. People that pass judgement

wih only bits of information infuriate me. I would be willing to bet that no one on this board, including myself has ALL of the facts of this case, Terri and Michaels life as husband and wife, her relationship with her parents and so on. But yet they insist they know what is best. Things happen in this life that we all do not care for. It is not our place to to interfere in the persoanl life of a stranger. This has been tried to damn death but still people persist. Society these days makes my stomach turn. Literally. If you have any doubt as to why this country is in a downward spiral all you need is to read through some of these posts and you will have a clear answer. Somewhere along the way people decided that it is ok for you to force your personal opinions and beliefs on others and people have gotten quite skilled in using the system to force feed the rest of the population. It makes me sick.

[eridani]

189. Because they have explicitly said that they don't care what Terri wanted

They said that they would maintain feeding tubes even against her explicit wishes.

[Riding this Donkey]

209. They had to say that, it was one of those questions where there

is no right answer, don't you see how lawyers can ask questions and get answers that support their angle.

Please they had to answer that way when asked that question.

[sonicx]

214. no, they didn't. they could say: "if we knew what she wanted, we would...

respect her choice."

[Riding this Donkey]

216. that is cockypop! they were being questioned by attorneys

and which ever way they answered was a no win situation.

Don't you know that lawyers like to ask questions like that, that will elicit such responses.

[sonicx]

220. so, you are ok with lying?

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sonicx]

227. You said it was ok for the family to lie to help their case...

That's a big deal...

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

249. I didn't think you would answer

my post. It appears to me the MO is Come out swinging, then hide under the bench when faced with a real challenge. Oh well.

[Riding this Donkey]

250. what challenge, I have answered every post that I have seen, enlighten me

please.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

263. Because

I said so is not an answer.

[mondo joe]

291. BS. Please cite the question that would require that answer.

There is no question anyone could ask me that could make me give that response.

[WoodrowFan]

yes of course

of course it can be proved BECAUSE SHE CAN'T FEEL PAIN BECAUSE MOST OF HER BRAIN IS GONE.


Jeezes people. get a clue!

[mondo joe]

84. When a body can no longer function, it can't do a lot of things

The unnatural thing is interrupting her natural death to keep her body alive like a zombie for 15 years.

[moobu2]

268. Yes, it is natural, perfectly natural

She would have died 15 years ago "NATURALLY"! if they hadn't surgically implanted a feeding tube into her stomach.

Since feeding tubes, which are surgically implanted in the stomach wall aren't "NATURAL", and were only developed in the last century, I assume NATURE took it's coarse for the millions of years prior to that, so yes, dying is NATURAL and we all stop eating sometime prior to death.

Terri Shiavo isnt eating steak and eggs and besides, her entire cortex is dead and gone.

[WoodrowFan]

173. no, it's not.

She won't feel any pain without food because she can't feel pain!

[ohio_liberal]

16. It's not about the parents, or even Michael Schiavo

The court held a hearing to determine what Terri Schiavo would have wanted, and it was determined that she would not have wanted to have her life artificially prolonged.

[Dookus]

18. No, we should not

I see no reason to do so.


And court after court after court has agreed there's no reason to do so. The desire of the parents is legally moot and has no relevance. If Terri had wanted to make her parents her decision-makers, she could've done so. She did not.

[Sandpiper]

24. The Doctors say no one's home, Court after court have sided with Schiavo

And agreed, based on all available evidence, that Mr. Schiavo was acting in the interests of his wife and according to her wishes...

And yet, this still isn't enough for some people.


Good grief, what more would it take?

[Dookus]

32. it's maddening, isn't it?

Every lie of the fundies has been exposed in this case, and people still repeat them ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

19. I think it should mainly be the within the province of the doctors

And the judges should defer to medical opinion.

If she's just a vegetable, then allowing her to die is not cruel and unusual punishment because she's feeling nothing as she no longer exists as a thinking/feeling human being. Tom Delay's argument that animals are treated better than this does not hold up if Schiavo can't process pain or any other sensations.

If the weight of medical opinion suggests that she continues to actually have any kind of a human life, then I'm all for erring on the side of life. But if she's completely brain dead, then why should it make any difference if they stop feeding her?

[Sandpiper]

31. I tend to agree

And the one indisputable medical fact in this case is this:

Terry Schiavo's cerebral cortex is gone, atrophied, filled with spinal fluid.

[amazona]

23. she's dead, Jim

If my parents wanted to torture my body years after my brain had died, I would hope to God that my husband would stand in their way. Fortunately, my parents are sane, and my partner is sane. Michael's actions are those of someone who actually loves Terri and doesn't care how it makes him look on the world stage as long as he does what is right for her.

I wouldn't want to be kept like this, so that my memory because a cruel hoax of all I was. Do you really think an eating disordered person could tolerate being seen like this? To leave her body open to the stares of the world after her mind is gone seems, to me, the ultimate cruelty of a disease that afflicts those who seek perfection.

The husband was offered $10 million dollars if he would allow the shame and torture to continue. He said no. That is love.

You believe the feeding tube is not painful. However, my friend's dad who retained awareness throughout his long dying, was screaming in pain from the feeding tube and begging, begging for it to be removed so that he could die. Terri's higher brain is gone but I am not so sure that pain is strictly a higher brain function. Many lower animals without a cerebral cortex feel pain. How do you know she has not been in agony these many years? "I have no mouth and I must scream" indeed!

[ultraist]

48. That offer is not that simple. You cannot "sell" your spouse

It's illegal to "sell" a human, so I don't think he could have legally accepted that offer.

I thought it was one million, not ten?

IF she is as brain damaged as they say, she is not being "tortured." The fact is, they cannot say with 100% certainity if she is not feeling any pain. Even some primitive life forms have nerve endings and can feel pain.

IF she can feel any level of pain, starving her is cruel.

[amazona]

126. there were 2 offers

One for one million, one for ten.

Just icky all round.

If she can feel horrible pain yet never express it and never get well, keeping her on that tube for the next several decades is inexpressibly cruel. As I said, in the case I know best, my friend's dad, he had all his mental marbles, and he was begging to be allowed to die. But, an interfering family member interfered for quite some while.

After much agony and debate, a Catholic cleric did come and explain to the family member in my friend's case that there was no chance of recovery (the man was dying of terminal cancer) and that there was no sin in removing the feeding tube. She finally had to accept that she was torturing her dad to no good end. So he did get his wish in the end.

I'm guessing that most times in these struggles good clergy put mercy above dogma. God is merciful. He is not looking to send people to hell when they have already suffered for months or years. Christ Himself was on the cross hours and in the ground less than 3 days. I don't think God puts unreasonable demands on us. We put unreasonable demands on ourselves.

[phylny]

72. I agree with your last paragraph. I work with a child who has

a feeding tube and is medically fragile, but doing well. Her nurse told me that virtually EVERYONE who has enteral feeding has complications. Some mild, some not, but common problems include impacted bowels, abdominal bloating, diarrhea or constipation, nausea or vomiting.

People are projecting their own fears of "starving" onto this poor woman, when in reality the medical community tells us that death resulting from removal of enteral feeding tubes is painless.

[Riding this Donkey]

123. Not true! n/t

[phylny]

300. A nurse told me this. Please add more than two words, along with

your qualifications, to refute what she said.

thanks.

[Quixote1818]

26. Good points however her parents need someone to look them straight

in the eye and tell her she is gone. It seems they need a very close friend to just be honest with them so they can stop lying to themselves and come to terms with reality. Once that occurs then they will have closure and can begin to heal and move on with their lives rather than clinging to a pipe dream of Terri coming back.

[BeFree]

29. There is this lady, ya see

Whom, yesterday, was alive and kicking. She had made love, just last night, to her husband, and then settled into a warm bed looking forward to today. She awoke this morning, happy as a lark, fed her family breakfast, got her kids off to school. On the way to the market she was shot through the head, by a US government supplied bullet, shot from a US government rifle, the trigger pulled by an American soldier who was trained to kill by US government training.

She is the one would should have been paying attention too. We might have saved her from such a horrendous death.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

88. Bless you, Free

Oh, bless you a thousand thousand times for keeping your eye on what is happening, on what truly matters.

[BeFree]

135. It does seem everyone forgets

The real power of the government. Here we have a case that is not unlike hundreds of thousands of other end of life occurrences that usually happen in a peaceful and dignified manner, yet we disregard the terrible death our governemnt has faithfully executed upon thousands of innocents in the last year alone. I cry for my country.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

177. Interesting choice of words, Free

Check my profile.

Well done.

[BeFree]

205. Yes, I did

Your quote reminded me of the saying. Say, what are you doing Monday night? Wanna go kick some right-winger butt? <G>

[drdon326]

34. Tough call......this case cuts across party lines.

Her husband turned down a reported $ 10 million dollars...

OTOH he started another family which kind of says hes separated EMOTIONALLY from his wife.



Veeeeeeery tough.

[shraby]

59. Unless there was a venomous, nasty divorce

a person is never separated emotionally from their first partner in life. She will always be in his heart, but he has learned due to circumstances that she is technically dead and has gone on with his life as the majority of us do once we accept the death. The only problem is, he has to deal with the death day after day after day, while at the same time trying to honor his "dead" wife's wishes.
I wouldn't trade places with this poor man for all the coins in the world. It has to be heart wrenching and horrible for him.

[drdon326]

70. Still raises the question .....

does he have her best interests at heart ??


Confusing case for me.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

91. Why mix them up?

That's like saying a man who has children from a first marriage can't love those kids if he remarries and has kids with his second wife.

Love goes all over the place, and loyalty defines the best people.

Michael Schiavo is a hero.

[mondo joe]

74. He started another family after it was clear she'd never recover

And he is now caryying out his obligation to her to let her at last go on to peace.

I'd want my spouse to do the same for me.

[otohara]

37. I Think - It's None of Our Business

and I would echo the question already posted. Are you a doctor? How did you come to the conclusions in regard to her facial movements?

[ultraist]

41. On what legal grounds could they terminate the spouses rights?

The State should NOT interfere with parental or spousal rights UNLESS they have good cause.

The court found that he was not abusing or neglecting her. If they can show, he is not acting in her best interest, he could possibly, lose his spousal rights but again, they have tried this and lost.

I would be VERY LEARY of the STATE making any decisions over anyone's bodies OR INTERFERING/OVERRIDING with kinship laws.

If they yank custody from him, on what grounds could they yank custody from a parent and make medical decisions for their dependent children?

I have had mixed feelings about this too and do not have a good feeling about her husband and have wondered why he didn't simply didn't divorce her. But I also have very strong feelings about the STATE NOT intruding on civil liberties.

[Riding this Donkey]

51. I don't like the the federal government interfering either. I wish

that this man, who has moved on, would let the mother and father of the woman he allegedly loves so much, take care of her.

WTF!

[mondo joe]

60. Why should he abandon her to parents who admit they'd defy her

wishes?

If I were in Terri's position I'd want my spouse to fight on to fulfill his obligation to me AND have his own life and love.

[Sandpiper]

65. You can't understand why he wouldn't abandon his wife

And leave her to live a prolonged life in a condition that she told him she would not want to be kept alive in?

I'd say love is the very reason why he hasn't.

[mondo joe]

42. Yes, you are wrong.

It's not just her husband - who happens to be HER CHOSEN legal guardian in the eventof her incapacitation.

There are other witnesses to her saying she didn't want to live like this.

And her parents have admitted they would defy her wishes if they KNEW she wanted life support ended.

As a LIBERAL I have no desire to reject Terri's personal choices for her own life and abandon her to people who don't care what she wanted.

[PittLib]

45. What do people NOT understand about ...

Terri's will? I don't really give a shit about her parents' or her husband's wishes ... my concern lies with Terri. It is cruel to keep her alive when she has no quality of life. Indulging her selfish and contradictory parents is NOT the answer. When did people stop sympathizing with her? Who would want to "live" this way? Can anyone here HONESTLY say that they would want to be kept alive no matter what? And DON'T tell me about your children ... while I realize that letting go of a child is never easy, this is not about her parents. My mother loves me too, but would love me enough to respect my wishes or at least do what is best for me.

[ultraist]

52. She did not have advance directives in her will

In that case, the spouse, who is next of kin, makes those decisions.

[mondo joe]

62. Though this case was more complicated than that.

Michael Schiavo asked the court to determine Terri's wishes, which it did, based on, among other things, testimony of witnesses.

[ohio_liberal]

71. Absolutely

This is an important point.

[PittLib]

64. Let me rephrase ...

"will" as in being - not as in a legal document. People keep putting themselves in the other live players' shoes ... and it is clouding the point. What is best for Terri?

[ultraist]

76. OH! I thought you meant the document. LOL!

The court heard testimony and determined that she would not have wished to live with life supports. As mondo said, this case was more complex.

The parents contested the husband's request early on to pull the plug, so it ended up in court. I think it was the second year this occured, but I'd have to look at the timeline again to be sure.

[Quixote1818]

49. A poll on NBC said only 7% would want to live on life support so

the probability that she would want to live on is very low. In my opinion since an over whelming majority don't want to live on life support then when their is no sold evidence as to what their wishes are one way or the other the burden would have to be on proving they would want to stay alive otherwise the probability is that you are making a mistake. But since she is not their then she just becomes like a lifeless doll for people to lie to themselves with and pretend she is their.

[Liberal Veteran]

54. You are wrong.

Barring any evidence on malice on the part of Michael Schiavo, he is the next-of-kin.

There are any number of conversations I have had with my boyfriend that I did not discuss with my parents.

Michael has been offered EVERYTHING from releasing guardianship with no strings attached to millions of dollars to give up this fight and he refuses.

That does not sound like the actions of a selfish person. And assuming he is telling the truth then he is carrying out his responsibilities toward his wife admirably and it would be a betrayal if he abandoned this fight because it's the easy thing to do.

B

[cynatnite]

57. Shouldn't Terri's wishes be taken in account?

It's all a matter of how you view right to die, next of kins' rights, patient rights and other issues associated with this case.

This has been in litigation for several years and time and time again, the courts found in favor of Terri's husband. Her parents utilized every aspect of the courts in order to get their way. They were ruled against every time.

For more details go to www.abstractappeal.com. It was very informative and I found it to be completely unbiased.

While I was leaning towards Terri being allowed to die in peace, I still had some doubts until I read through the thorough information provided.

Check it out.

[Walt Starr]

63. Why do you hate marriage?

Seriously, why?

[Riding this Donkey]

73. That sounds so republican.................LOL

its funny how this issue has got us all so screwed up!

[AutumnMist]

293. This is not about marriage - and what about sex?

(On Edit: This is 'The Straight Story' I did not realize my wife had been logged in on my laptop when I posted this)

His right as her husband does not mean he owns her body and chooses whether she lives or dies. He knew her for less time then her parents, so I am guessing they probably have a little more insight into this particular case.

If a man kills his wife, then tells police she wanted him to they would arrest him. It did not matter what she said because the legality of it is bigger than just the two of them.

One party in this matter is not able to voice their opinion - and so others are involved. Example (extreme perhaps) - suppose he told them she always said she would still want sex if this ever happend to her. Would they let him have her? What if she told him she wanted him to let others have sex with her, could the husband allow others to come there and do so? Who would we believe - and even if we did believe it, would we as a society who is partially paying for her care and life allow it?

If death is ok, what else is allowable? And why or why not?

[ohio_liberal]

295. The rule of law is that

the husband legally has the right to stop artificial feeding in order to sustain his wife's life. In this case Michael Schiavo asked the courts to determine what Terri's wishes would have been. You see, it isn't about him anymore. This is about what the courts decided Terri wanted.

[The Straight Story]

298. And that perhaps is a tad scary

Having the courts decide things (like the 2000 election). The other side of that is that people can appeal what one court says, and can keep appealing generally.

I am not disagreeing with your general assesment, it is just that the courts and activist judges worry me a tad (and I keep seeing roe getting overturned in courts in my head when * gets his supremes in and the old ones out that don't do his bidding).

[The Straight Story]

296. Sorry about that hun

Did not mean to post the above as you, my bad!

[IowaGuy]

67. Does this position not demean the sacrament of marriage?

I appreciate your sentiments...this is a really tuff one. I do, however, from what I know of the case presently, have to come down on the side of the husband.

As cruel as it sounds in this case, culturally, legally and spiritually the parents gave up the responsibility of deciding these types of things for their daughter when she married. At that point those responsibilities fell to her husband. They may not like it, it undoubtably breaks their heart, anytime a child beats their parents to the grave, it does - but life, and death, is just messy like that.

When my first son was born, my wife and I were watching him sleep in his bassinet one night, as young parents do; and my wife said one of the wisest things I've ever heard. She said, "You know, from this point on, its all about us learning to let go." I first thought that was nuts, I'd just met the little guy. But she was right. He had already spent 9 months inside of her, a part of her, and then she had to break with him, to bring him into the world - she had already started the long process of letting go. As the years go by, you continually find yourself doing this, letting go of their hand and letting them fall and pick themselves up. Letting go of the bycycle and watching them gleefully ride off into the distance - watching them go to college, etc. - Every step along the way is fearful, but you do it because you love them.

I empathize and understand what Terry's parents are going through, and I don't want to be too judgemental or harsh, God forbid that I would ever be in their shoes - but it is time to let go of their daughter, because they love her. Its hard and will hurt like no other hurt in the world, but its time. The love they feel for her is not theirs to "enjoy". It's theirs to give.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

94. What a wonderful post, IowaGuy

Welcome to DU!!!

[IowaGuy]

230. Thanks, appreciate the welcome and kind thoughts...

actually not all that new at DU...been kind of lurking around for about 6-7 months - just not a real prolific poster, more of a reader type guy; just write when I think I got something' to say.

A lot of good, passionate people here and of course a few that walk pretty close to the edge....keeps things interesting and provocative.

[janx]

99. That's a beautiful post--so true. n/t

[Trajan]

212. I understand your position completely ....

And I totally agree ... this is a tough one ...

Somewhere deep inside of me, I suppose my 'immature' self wants everything to be ok .... My point was this: she is not 'suffering' as a being .... She is CERTAINLY not living in a human sense, but she is not in pain or agony ....

I would have a tough time putting down a loved pet even IF they were hurt .... but this would be infinitely more difficult ...

Euthanasia is a means of ending the suffering of a live being: Yet she doesnt appear to 'suffer' in the classic sense, except to lack high thinking .... (or any thinking, for that matter) ....

I believe assisted suicide is suitable for those who are fully cognizant of their own decision to end their own suffering ....

I am so troubled by ALL of the different aspects of this case .... I am powerless to 'know' enough about this to make a choice ....

I love my family so much, I could not 'pull the trigger', as it were, if one were NOT in immediate pain and suffering .... not easily at any rate ....

[mondo joe]

68. Why would a liberal impose on an adult her parents' choice for her?

Terri made her wishes known, and witnesses attest to it.

Terri chose a legal guardian - her husband - and so granted him the power to speak on her behalf when she could not.

What is liberal about refusing her choices and making her parents her lord and master?

[Riding this Donkey]

83. What liberal woman allows the man in her life to make all the decisions.

Please Mondo, I can turn almost everyone of your statements around on you.

This is not really a political issue, but I believe you see it as one.

[mondo joe]

90. She chose Michael as her spokesperson in the event of her incapacitation.

She didn't choose her parents.

I'm respecting HER choices. Why aren't you?

[Riding this Donkey]

96. Michael chose someone else! n/t

[mondo joe]

98. Again, she chose Michael. Why do you seek to reverse her choice?

[ultraist]

97. I don't understand why they haven't considered him "estranged"

She is a ward of the state, an indigent, and he is living with another woman as if they are married and they have children together.

After 6 months of not living together, people are considered seperated in many states. Yet, he still has legal first of kin rights.

I'm opposed to the State infringing on first of kin laws, but it does seem odd that he can maintain his first of kin status due to those facts.

[mondo joe]

100. By that standard anyone hospitalized long term would be estranged

And Michael has maintained her care over the years - and not just adequate care but exemplary care.

[ultraist]

113. Maybe it is because she is in an institution

He did not "abandon" her, she is in an institution. Yes, good point.

There are spouses who live in mental institutions who maintain their legal rights.

[LisaL]

261. Yea, sure. When she had an infection, he didn't want antibiotics

used to treat it. That's what you consider an exemplary care?

[janx]

266. I have asked you the same question over and over:

Where are you getting this information? And if you are getting this information from the Schindlers' web site, what initially drew you to it?

Will you please answer this time?

[mondo joe]

315. Yes - that was after the decision to allow her to die naturally.

Many people in that state similarly are refused treatment.

But in all the years Michael Sciavo has treated Terri she's never had a single bedsore. Almost unheard of for people in her state.

Every court document reflects that he has provided exemplary care for her.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

109. You don't understand it,

because you're pretending to make it a legal issue when it's not.

She's not a ward of the state insofar as her husband's legal guardian state, and people in PVS are not capable of being legally separated.

I mean, how about a little common sense here, huh?

[ultraist]

118. Yes, she has been declared a ward of the state

and an indigent. That's how she qualified for medicare at her age.

Spare me the ad hominem attacks. :eyes:

He has FIRST OF KIN rights. He is not her legal guardian.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

128. He is her legal guardian, sorry

And she's not on Medicare, which is not applicable here.

She's a client of Medicaid.

There is no such thing as "FIRST OF KIN."

<laughing>

:yourock:

[ohio_liberal]

115. She's not a ward of the state

But the Freepers would sure like her to become one.

[ultraist]

120. According to a document someone posted, she IS a ward of the state

She was declared this and an "indigent" so she could get medicare, which is means tested at her age.

[ohio_liberal]

I'm sorry, but no

Although Jeb has been urged to try to make her a ward of the state, she isn't right now:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:6eY1oEPCkwEJ:www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-te.schiavo24feb24,1,4764717.story%3Fcoll%3Dbal-health-headlines+terri+schiavo+%22ward+of+the+state%22&hl=en&client=firefox-a

[ultraist]

155. Thanks ohio-liberal! You are correct

The poster on another thread a week or so ago, must have put up misinfo. I see where the rumor started though!

[ohio_liberal]

160. You are very welcome, of course

There's a lot of disinformation floating around out there and it's really tough to get a handle on it all. I'd recommend http://www.abstractappeal.com to anyone who wants an unbiased, thorough look at the whole case.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

131. Medicaid, MEDICAID

You don't know the difference between the programs?

She's on Medicaid.

Oy.

[ultraist]

166. Are you incapable of engaging in a civilized discussion?

Do you have impulse control issues whereby you can't control yourself from insulting people? What is your fucking problem?

"You don't know the difference?"

I do not know ALL of the EXACT eligibility requirements for Medicaid or Medicare but I know the general diferrences of the programs yes. Whatever.

Terri qualified under this requirement and somehow her husband got out of having his income considered OR his income is very low, it IS means tested:

Person who is Aged, Blind, and/or Disabled

Apply if you are aged (65 years old or older), blind, or disabled and have low income and few resources. Apply if you are terminally ill and want to receive hospice services. Apply if you are aged, blind, or disabled; live in a nursing home; and have low income and limited resources. Apply if you are aged, blind, or disabled and need nursing home care, but can stay at home with special community care services. Apply if you are eligible for Medicare and have low income and limited resources

Since YOU DO know ALL Of the eligibity requirements, what is the INCOME LEVEL of a parent for a child to be eligible?
If you don't answer quickly, I will assume YOU DON'T KNOW!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

174. Clearly, no, you got them mixed up

And, as you said, "Whatever."

[ultraist]

179. Clearly you do not know the eligibility requirements

Since you couldn't answer the question.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

182. No, that's wrong, too.

You're batting 1.000 on this one, though.

I chose not to read the rest of your post after I read the word "whatever."

[suziedemocrat]

196. I had no idea this was such a hot issue.

Boy - when you voice an opinion slighly different from what is "allowed" here - you sure get the hell beaten out of you. I didn't know DU was about mind control. There is no exucse for people to be so insulting.

[LisaL]

228. Exactly. Is that liberal or democratic-to be so completely

intolerant to a different opinion? To bash someone because they have a different opinion? I don't think so.

[ultraist]

284. Trashy insults towards posters are not "liberal."

[Princess Turandot]

243. she is on Medicaid..

I think the 'ward of the state' is a semantics error.You get Medicaid by being indigent, and if the 'state' pays for all of your care if you are residing in a nursing home, someone might call that being a ward of the state, but it is not a legal distinction.

Also and FYI, Social Security-Disability is the mechanism thru which people under 65 are on Medicare. It is not means-tested, beyond a lack of ability for the person to work in the future. It makes no claim on existing assets.She would only be on Medicare if she has been receiving payments thru the SS-Disability program.

She may have both Medicare & Medicaid, but even if she does, Medicare does not pay for long term nursing home care. It pays
for short term rehab, such as a person might get after a mild stroke.
Medicaid usually pays for the long-haul.

One way or another, is a use of entitlement program monies derived from tax revenues. Personally, I'd prefer mine to help the living, not the dead, as long as those resources are limited.

[ultraist]

286. She is on Medicaid and may also be on Medicare, as you stated

She may be receiving SSI benefits.

[LisaL]

259. Exactly. What does he have with Terri? What kind of

marriage is that, for goodness sake? He is living with another woman, he has been living with another woman for years. Why in the world he is still considered to be Terri's husband is beyond my understanding.

[janx]

262. This is a false dichotomy.

A spouse is a spouse, according to most laws and to Florida law in particular. That is why Michael Schiavo has refused to divorce the wife he married so long ago; he wants to honor her wishes. He is dogged and determined to do so.

[suziedemocrat]

75. I agree. Her husband says one thing - her parents another.

Nothing in writing. In that case - we should err on the side of life. If all of her loved ones agreed that she would want to die - then there would be no issue. But since her parents want her kept alive, they are willing to take care of her, and her husband does not have proof she would not want to live in this state - she should be kept alive.

[mondo joe]

82. Did you miss the facts: 1) there were other witnesses, 2) Terri CHOSE

1) there were other witnesses
2) Terri CHOSE her husband to be her voice in the event of her incapacitation - she never chose her parents
3) her parents didn't even know she was getting fertility treatments - they didn't know a lot about her
4) her parents have admitted they would DEFY her wishes if they KNEW she wanted life support removed

[Quixote1818]

103. Yes, and the burden should be on the parents to prove their case

since only 7% of people polled say they would want to live that way.

[ultraist]

107. Online polls don't mean anything

[Quixote1818]

125. Not an on-line poll. It was a real poll done by NBC

They talked about it tonight. Even evangelical Christians were only at like 11%.

[suziedemocrat]

136. Most people like meat. I'm a vegetarian. I wouldn't want a poll to

decide anything about my life. I think this issue shows how important it is to have a living will. This is a perfect case of what can go wrong if your wishes aren't in writing.

[Quixote1818]

176. In a perfect world you are correct but when their is little to go on it

would seem you would have to default to scientific probability. You would miss 7% of the time and hit 93% of the time. As for the 7% who didn't get what they wished for, well they should have had a living will as you indicated.

[ultraist]

172. Oh, my bad

;)

[sonicx]

175. Here's another scientific poll from WP/ABC...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewItem&itemID=6387

[Quixote1818]

180. Thanks for posting that I was looking all over for the NBC poll. nt

[sonicx]

193. Here's another poll: Survery USA....

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=34077

[suziedemocrat]

108. Anything in writing? Living wills aren't a new concept.

But - I don't know as much about the case as you do. I'm not following it that closely. From 10,000 feet - I think she should live. But I'm not going to get into an argument about this when so many other things are going on that are much more important to me.

[mondo joe]

114. Of course Terri was young and otherwise healthy, and didn't have

a living will. Neither did I at her age.

But like Terri I did make my wishes known.

[PittLib]

153. How would you feel if you were Terri?

Would you want to be kept alive at costs? I think this is the only true question in this case.

[suziedemocrat]

You're right. I think I would want to be kept alive.

And I'd rather my Mother decide than my spouse. My father was in a coma for a while and came out and then went back in and died - even though he was kept on life support. He said he was somewhat aware when he was in a coma and on life support. I guess that is the bottom line in all of this. Personal opinions enter into this that cannot be ignored.

[sonicx]

186. A coma is different. Terri's brain is gone.

she is not aware of others. the media excepts of the video tapes are highly edited and deceptive.

[mondo joe]

287. If you'd rather your mother than spouse decide, you should establish it

legally, because your spouse is your legal guardian.

[PittLib]

299. If you want to live out your life in a PVS ...

then by all means, you have that right. You must be part of that elusive 7% (is it?) that we're hearing about. Make sure your wishes are legally documented and that you give your mother power of attorney. If that was indeed sarcasm - I'm not really sure whose opinions are being ignored (more glaringly than Terri's, that is).

[moobu2]

285. The parents said they didnt care

and wouldnt honor Terri's wishes...read this from the official guardian report,

Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

102. Please

That's not life.

She's on 'life support."

We should err on the side of the choice she voiced to her next-of-kin, and if you don't believe she told him that, that's tough.

It's none of anyone's business. The parents are nothing but pimps who have sold their daughter out to the rightwingnut fundies as their whore.

[suziedemocrat]

150. Are austic children living? Is daily medication also life support?

This is a gray area - maybe dark gray - but gray none the less. That's why we need to have living wills - to prevent this sort of thing from happening.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

169. No, it is not

The US Supreme Court has even ruled on it.

Feeding tubes are "life support."

I don't know what the rest of your post means. Sorry.

However, in the past few weeks, I've sent out dozens of Health Care Power of Attorney forms, with instructions, to DUers who sent me their email addresses via PM. In the last 24 hours, the requests have increased a whole lot.

Living wills are worthless - a health care power of attorney, properly executed, is pretty much unassailable and definitely unbreakable.

[suziedemocrat]

187. That's good you are providing this service to DUers.

[ultraist]

275. Laws vary from state to state. You should use State specific documents

Advance Directives

What are advance directives?
“Advance directive” is a general term that refers to your oral and written instructions about your future medical care, in the event that you become unable to speak for yourself. Each state regulates the use of advance directives differently. There are two types of advance directives: a living will and a medical power of attorney.

What is a living will?
A living will is a type of advance directive in which you put in writing your wishes about medical treatment should you be unable to communicate at the end of life. Your state law may define when the living will goes into effect, and may limit the treatments to which the living will applies. Your right to accept or refuse treatment is protected by constitutional and common law.

What is a medical power of attorney?
A medical power of attorney is a document that enables you to appoint someone you trust to make decisions about your medical care if you cannot make those decisions yourself. This type of advance directive may also be called a “health care proxy” or “appointment of a health care agent.” The person you appoint may be called your health care agent, surrogate, attorney-in-fact, or proxy. In many states, the person you appoint through a medical power of attorney is authorized to speak for you any time you are unable to make your own medical decisions, not only at the end of life.

Why do I need an advance directive?
Advance directives give you a voice in decisions about your medical care when you are unconscious or too ill to communicate. As long as you are able to express your own decisions, your advance directives will not be used and you can accept or refuse any medical treatment. But if you become seriously ill, you may lose the ability to participate in decisions about your own treatment.

What laws govern the use of advance directives?
Both federal and state laws govern the use of advance directives. The federal law, the Patient Self-determination Act, requires health care facilities that receive Medicaid and Medicare funds to inform patients of their rights to execute advance directives. All 50 states and the District of Columbia have laws recognizing the use of advance directives. The booklet, “Questions and Answers: Advance Directives and End-of-Life Decisions,” available from Choice In Dying, offers more information about advance directives.

State specific documents:

http://www.partnershipforcaring.org/Advance/documents_set.html

http://www.nhpco.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3965&openpage=3965

[Pithlet]

149. We should err on the side of her spouse

who she chose to marry. A next of kin doesn't have to have proof that that discussion took place. The proof is the wedding liscense. A spouse is a legal next of kin.

[suziedemocrat]

158. I don't think as highly of marriage as you do.

Scott Peterson was a husband. IMO a spuse and a parent are about equal. But maybe that is because I am very close to my parents.

[Pithlet]

164. Well, the law doesn't share your views about marriage

And thank God for that.

And, I'm sorry, but Scott Peterson? Has NOTHING to do with this! Why would you even bring that up?

I am very close to my parents. But, my husband comes first. I value my marriage. My relationship with him is different than with my parents. If I didn't trust him 100% to honor my wishes, then I wouldn't be married to him. I don't want you or anyone else valuing and judging my marriage the way you seem to be doing with Michael and Terri. These are people you don't even know! You have no idea what went on between them.

The law says a spouse is next of kin. If you don't agree with that, then you need to write up a will that says your spouse has no rights, and you place your parents as legal next of kin. But, don't project your weak views of marriage on everyone else's relationships.

I hope to God that if anything happens to either my spouse or me, that people outside of our marriage butt the hell out.

[suziedemocrat]

183. Aren't Parents next of kin too?

I'm glad you have a loving marriage. That is something great. I don't know anything about Michael and Terri. But - give me a break - not all marriages are happy and loving - which is why I brought up Scott Peterson. He is just as relevant as you bringing up your own marriage. Some marriages are terrific - some aren't. Some people have better relationships with their parents than others. If this case was so cut in dried it wouldn't need to be overturned. People who know the law much better than I can't agree - so pipe down and stop thinking I am attacking YOUR marriage.

[Pithlet]

191. No, they aren't if you're married.

Your spouse is.

No, not all marriages are happy and loving. That's why there is divorce. Terri was still willingly married to him before she fell into a PVS. Court after court found no evidence that he had anything but her interests at heart. He and at least a couple of other people testified to her wishes.

[suziedemocrat]

204. OK - I didn't know a spuse superceded a parent.

Look - I love DU and I don't really care about this issue that much - so - peace??

[Pithlet]

208. Always was peace.

We disagreed on this issue, that's all. It's one I'm passionate about, so I get strident. And, you learned something today :)

[ohio_liberal]

218. Answer to your question

Aren't Parents next of kin too?

First comes the husband, next an adult child, then parents

[eridani]

202. Actually, they aren't taking care of her

Caregivers paid by axpayers are.

[RevolutionaryActs]

85. I disagree.

If she said she didn't want this, then her wishes should be carried through.

I know that's hard for her family, but it's the only right thing to do. To let her go in peace, the way she wanted.

I know that her husband can't prove that it was truly her wish, but I find it incredibly hard that he would just make it up.


But it's not for us to decide.

[Radio_Rick]

89. My wife and I have mutual medical powers of atty and directives

where we have indicated that we do not want to be kept alive by extraordinary means, etc., etc. etc. (the standard boiler plate). Just to avoid this kind of litigation.

But we would not our directives to have to proven by anecdotal hearsay - that's why they are reduced to writing.

My father had a very tightly written final directive, signed, witnessed, notarized, and certified copies to all of us - because (given how we sibs get along) - he did not want a "You made daddy prolong his suffering --- You pulled the plug too soon" thermo-nuclear exchange to take place. And we sibs fight just for the fun of a good fight.

BUT - we are not so presumptuous as to impose our values on others who have not had the foresight to reduce their intentions to a self declaring, self proving writing.

[mondo joe]

105. Don't be so sure someone - even some on DU - won't challenge your choice

And though you've done a great job of documenting it, anything can be challenged.

[Radio_Rick]

147. "In Terrorem" Clause

We talked to our lawyer about putting in an "In Terrorem" clause - anybody challenging the final directive could not take under our wills or by intestacy.

She advised against it - might throw out the whole final directive.

[Riding this Donkey]

170. I wouldn't challenge it. n/t

[Pithlet]

207. It is exactly because of the views you've posted in this thread

and the fact that many others share those views that makes me not trust your statement. Which is why getting my wishes in writing has become top priority for me. Because of vies like yours. Because obviously marriage isn't enough for some people anymore. Obviously people are too willing to jump to conclusions about the relationships of other people they don't know, and think the government should have the right to override that legal and personal bond.

[mondo joe]

279. You might if you had another of your psychic hunches

After all, your arguments are based on your feelings anyway.

[izzie]

117. I find Congress into this so odd. I feel pity for this poor women

Why can they not leave her alone?

[janx]

129. You don't sound pro-choice to me.

It's about her choice. And she chose not to live in such a state.

[Hamlette]

133. its like saying the woman should give birth and give it up for adoption

or give it to the father.

You don't just walk away from those situations, too much emotion lingering. The husband would always feel like he should visit and when he did, he would be pained by seeing her like that.

It's not a solution if you truly believe she would want her life ended.

[Riding this Donkey]

139. He's basically a polygamist, he has moved on, what don't

people get about that.

I have known real men who would never do that.

If you want to have another relationship, you get a divorce, no matter what.

[ohio_liberal]

140. The Schindlers themselves told him to move on

Now they, and you, want to use it against him. Good on him if he found comfort in 15 years of hell.

[Riding this Donkey]

142. Yeah and he should of by starting with divorcing their daughter.

That's all I'm saying.

[ohio_liberal]

144. It's not up to you to decide what his morals should be

That's all I'm saying.

[Riding this Donkey]

151. Nor for you to believe his morals are galliant. n/t

[ohio_liberal]

154. I don't know what 'galliant' means

but I do know what a self-righteous moralist is :)

[Riding this Donkey]

162. Do you? then you don't know me. n/t

[Pithlet]

159. He should have abandoned his wife

and left her to "live" in a state she didn't want to? How horrible.

[mondo joe]

288. You're saying he should abandon her to 2 people who admit they'd defy

her wishes.

And you think that's MORAL?

[LisaL]

264. LOL. Does he always listen to what Schindlers tell him?

If he did, he would divorce Terri, no?

[Pithlet]

156. People don't get it

Because there is nothing wrong with moving on after your spouse has died. Terri died. Her body is being kept alive artificially. It isn't Michael's fault that others butted in where they had no business and have prolonged this, in effect prolonging both Terri's AND his suffering. I can't believe that anyone would expect him to live a lonely life. My grandmother took care of my grandfather who was PVS for 12 years. She never talked about a relationship with anyone else in that time, but if she had, and it was known, I would have figuratively kickedanyone's ass who would have judged her for doing so.

You have no idea what it is like to watch a loved one live that way. And yet you still pass judgment. Shameful.

[ima_sinnic]

206. A "polygamist" ?? sheesh! wtf??

what is it with you sanctimonious, judgmental busybodies who seem to have nothing better to do than come up with THE dumbest excuses for keeping a corpse "alive", and most cruelly I might add. So you think he should "stay faithful" to a vegetable? He should come to her bedside day after day and--what? read to someone who can't hear? hold someone's hand who can't feel it? be as stupidly maudlin as you appear to be?

I gather from your comments about this person Terri, whom I assume you never met, that should a similar fate befall you, you would like to burden your friends and family for years and years with caring for your lifeless shell (including your spouse, who simply cannot have a life so long as you are kept hooked up to a "feeding" machine), to rob resources from those who truly need them, and have everybody "play god" to keep you from your final peace. YOU are the one who should have to write a living will, not the VAST majority of us who would not want such a thing. And I hope you have the bucks, or the insurance, to pay for it too because I would TRULY RESENT my tax dollars going toward maintaining a vegetable when there are so many who truly deserve assistance.

[Riding this Donkey]

219. Ah no, I would expect them to get on with their lives, fully and start

with divorcing me!

That would be a pre requisite for moving on.

[ima_sinnic]

231. divorce you? why?

you're saying, then, that--who? your parents?--WOULD and SHOULD be saddled with your care? If, god forbid, something like what happened to Terri happened to my husband, I would NOT divorce him, just the OPPOSITE! I would want to MAKE SURE that the hand-wringing fundie nutjobs didn't get their hands on him to make their irrational "pro-life" histrionic case out of him. I would definitely NOT get divorced so that I could make sure he died with dignity, not as somebody's pet corpse. Terri's parents should get a blow-up doll, it would be cheaper, and also kinder to Terri.

[Hamlette]

333. then who speaks for Terry?

if it were to happen to me, do I get no dignity if my parents happen to be right wing idiots?

Get a flipping grip. He's not a polygamist. His wife has been vegged out for 15 years! He tried to do this quietly, privately and with dignity but the same people who want to teach creationism in the schools, who want to make foreign policy decisions based on their belief that Christ will come back if we start a big war in the Middle East, the same people who want YOU to be a fundamentalist too, have decided to make the husband a political whipping boy. Just like Elian Gonzales.

We believe in the rule of law. The courts have found Terry would want to be unplugged. 86% of Americans say THEY would want to be unplugged.

And you find fault with the husband. You need to find a different means of transportation.

[ulysses]

143. no.

I'm sorry for her parents, but they're crossing the line into the ghoulish.

She is not an object for them to "enjoy". As liberals, we should support her *expressed* desire that she not be kept in this state.

[WoodrowFan]

161. God, here we go again

How many times do we have to rehash this??? SHE'S DEAD! There is no "enjoy" there is no "feel" there is no "suffer" All that is GONE GONE GONE! She can't regrow a brain, her parents and the RW put together a bogus video tape that seems to fool those with issues on this. GOD! All the excuses we've seen here are right wing LIES LIES LIES, GOD!

[Misunderestimator]

192. Oh... I am so stealing that smilie.

thanks :)

[WoodrowFan]

194. enjoy

I asked Skinner to add some of them.

http://www.fansofrealitytv.com/forums/misc.php?do=showsmilies

[Misunderestimator]

203. Thanks

[Just Me]

168. If you really are everything you say you are,...your OP is BS.

I will exercise my power to hide this insane thread.

[Trajan]

217. I suppose I am glad you are ....

BS ? ...

I am a human being who supposedly enjoys 'higher thinking' ....

Can I NOT be troubled by such subject matter ? ... Even AS a Liberal Atheist ? ...

Sheeesh ....

[Misunderestimator]

190. All I know is that a Living Will has become one of my top priorities...

And the right to have my partner make the decision for me if I can't would be a wonderful thing... of course, I can't have that.

[GoneOffShore]

195. Persistent Vegatative states

Yep, sorry, you're wrong here.
She expressed the wish to die to more than one person. Her parents have been brainwashed by the 'right to life' folks.


'She does not seem to be in any specific pain, and while her brain scans show little activity, her facial movements indicate at least some emotive impulse ...'

According to a medical ethicist at UofP, even though there are responses to stimuli by people in persistent vegatative states, those responses come from the autonomic nervous system - kind of like the twitching of a frogs' legs from galvanic stimuli.
Terry Schiavo's mind died a long time ago - it's time to let her body die.


edited for spelling

[Trajan]

222. I am not a right to lifer .. by any stretch ....

Never have been .... BUT

I am a father .. a brother ... a nephew .... an uncle ... a son ..... and a friend .....

I am not perfect, and neither are my choices ...... IF Terry Schiavo were my sister: I am not sure I could pull her tubewithout hearing FOR MYSELF her desires .....

[Pithlet]

199. As liberals

We should respect that Terri and Michael are married. We should legally respect that contract. We should let people make the decisions for themselves whether they want life support, and we should let their spouses ensure that their wishes are respected and followed. We should support the decisions that people make about how they want to die, and whether they want to live in a vegetative state.

[LisaL]

255. What is a marriage to you? He is living with another woman.

He is raising two children with that woman. Yet, we should respect his marriage to Terri? Why in the world should we do that? Because of some stamp on a peace of paper?

[ohio_liberal]

258. Marriage is a legally binding contract

Like eBay ;)

[mondo joe]

282. We already know you don't believe in law or science

But a few of us do.

[Pithlet]

301. Marriage is not about

what other people think, or their judgments about another relationship, especially if those people are strangers you've never met.

We should respect his marriage to Terri because they chose to marry each other. She has been a vegetable for 15 years. Anyone who would judge a person for moving on with their life is crass. Especially considering he has continued to stand by Terri all along.

Marriage to me is a legal bond between two people that strangers should butt the hell out of. That is what marriage is to me.

[Cha]

223. Here's Michael Schiavo's own words..

from a transcript on the larry king show tonight..

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/27/lkl.00.html

[janx]

232. That poor man looked so tired!

I should write him and his lawyer a note. More people should do that.

[Cha]

246. Thanks..I didn't see him..

only read the fascinating interview.

That's a wonderful suggestion.

[Riding this Donkey]

307. Her parents and siblings look terrible also. n/t

[ExpresS]

238. You are wrong for a number of reasons.

First of all, Michael doesn't want to live on knowing his wife (soon ex-wife) is still alive and suffering in a vegitative state for the rest of her life. He wants to move on, and part of that is laying the matter to rest.

Besides, if conservatives knew the real definition and medical study of "persistant vegitative state" they would know that it shares a similar definition as "permanent vegitative state." All of the movements, responses to sound, touch, motion, and other such indications of life are exactly the opposite - they are instinctual reactions and the person is not in a congnitive state.

Please read:

Permanent or Persistent Vegetative State (PVS)

The first important thing to acknowledge about a diagnosis of "permanent or persistent vegetative state (PVS)," is that it is a harsh term that seems to imply what is not, or should not, be intended. That is, it does not mean that the patient has ceased to be a human person with the dignity of every other human person. This human dignity cannot be diminished by disease or disability. Nevertheless, PVS is a profoundly serious condition. Though there are many questions about the continuation of medical treatment for these patients (because of the gravity of their circumstances) basic care should continue.

The term "permanent vegetative state" was coined by neurosurgeons Bryan Jennett and Fred Plum in 1972 to describe a condition resulting from severe brain damage. Using their words, it is described as coma characterized by "wakefulness without awareness." In 1983, the President's Commission for the Study of Ethical Problems in Medicine and Biomedical and Behavioral Research accepted the definition of persistent vegetative state as the "inability to experience the environment." It is one type of permanent unconsciousness.

Since PVS patients appear awake (in fact, they have wake/sleep cycles similar to those of healthy persons), and their eyes are often open and moving about, it can be very difficult to accept that they are completely and irreversibly unaware of their surroundings. As with all patients, a determination of the balance of burden and benefit will help determine which treatments are ordinary and proportionate, and which are extraordinary and disproportionate.

For better and further explanation, please visit:

http://www.sclhsc.org/mission_vision_values/ethics/pvs.asp

[WoodrowFan]

241. thanks

thank you for adding some facts to this. and welcome to the DU.

[DesEtoiles]

240. the only question is: WHO gets to decide

her husband?

Tom DeLay?

[ScreamingMeemie]

242. 100 years ago, this would not have been an issue, nature would have

taken care of we, as idiots, thought we could be in control of...who lives and dies.

[ohio_liberal]

245. If this were Europe, present day

Chances are this would not be an issue. Only Americans can fuck up something this bad ;)

[pinkpops]

252. Amen

[Cleita]

247. A lot has been said about Terri being in a vegetative state.

She's not even that. A live plant as any gardener knows, actually can move. It follows the sun, especially the flowers, and the roots reach for water. They actually can move, can fulfill their destiny, so to speak, to survive and then die and reseed as their species allows.

What they have done to Terri is to stick her in a vase of water to prolong the bloom. Once the flower is cut it is no longer alive. Or, for another analogy you can stick your head of lettuce in the fridge to preserve its freshness, but it is no longer alive.

[SW FL Dem]

267. I am liberal, Christian and Pro- choice and I disagree with you.

This case is very complicated and unfortunately, most people don't know or comprehend all the facts. Terri's parents have done a great job of spreading their version of the truth and the media has totally distorted the story because it sells. If you want an independent analysis of the story, I suggest you check out http://abstractappeal.com/. Another great analysis is at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7231440/

[ExpresS]

270. Only a suggestion....

No one is going to give credibility or further research time to any post that insults the reader's intelligence.

I believe I know all the facts of this particular case and know Terri's parents's contentions, but I wholeheartedly disagree with their position.

[moobu2]

278. I agree and thank goodness for Abstract Appeal.

with all the misinformation out there, that's the one place you trust.

You cant believe a thing on Terrisfight because I think the family has sold Terri off to groups with a rightwing political agenda. Sad, but I'm afraid that's what's happened.

<spellin>

[Kipepeo]

269. When she is unable to make her own medical decisions

her spouse takes the role. I think his wishes (which he says are her wishes and I believe him but that's beside the point) should be respected. I don't think it's the government's place to decide....it is the burden of her spouse.

[erinlough]

283. I think the reason

this issue is so emotionally charged is that it is natural for it to be. In December my sister died of cancer. She was an extremely private person and preferred not to discuss her condition or give up the fight with her cancer in front of even her closest family. She did make out a living will requesting DNR when the cancer overtook her body. Some people in the family saw how quickly she was failing without being told, some people did not. Her husband and all of her sisters spent the last 12 hours of her life with her and the will was respected. The reason I tell you this is not because I think there is a similarity with this case but with what happened after her death. Some of us came away at peace with her death, some came away from the same room with anger that the DNR was enacted. The difference in opinions in my families case are as strong as the opinions expressed here. I think it is really about accepting that death is coming for all of us and when we have to face it in someone else it brings that fact too close to home. Maybe I'm personalizing it too much....

[Kipepeo]

290. No, I think everyone personalizes it, as you said

that's why it has been seized upon by the media...we cannot help but personalize it from one position or the other...and they like the ratings and "controversy" that creates.

[bettyellen]

292. im so sorry for your loss.

and you are so right.
can i ask though, observing those who were at peace and those who were angry at your sisters choice, who was facing up to the situation honestly? and who was respectful of your sisters decision? who acted in the most caring way towards your sister?
i feel like a lot of the angry ones, who do not want to accept the decision, but since they would be forced to... they just hold this decision to an unattainable standard or burden of proof.

[erinlough]

294. The people who could not accept

the decision are angry that she has left them, and at some level struggling with their inability to realistically see her condition while she was alive. I am convinced they are angry at some level with themselves for not being able to "fix" it. Some of them are really angry at themselves for a variety of things they think they did or did not do and are projecting it onto the situation, even to my dear sister herself. All of us are just going through the grieving process.

Thanks for your comments

[bettyellen]

297. i have been through a lot of similar stuff...

and i had a similar impression, with those who were less accepting. they weren't believing reacting to the illness and sort of tilting at windmills. a lot of it is about themselves, they seem to lose the ability to have empathy for the one suffering. i think it scares them so much, they have to just fight it, without thinking of the consequences to the person actually going through it.
thanks for the thoughtful posts. and a belated welcome to DU. and trust that while we could never replace her, you will find lots of sisters here when you need them.

[bettyellen]

273. they want to "enjoy" what you GUESS TO BE her "emotive impulses"

are you fucking kidding? don't you know anything about the case?

[Toucano]

274. Yes, you're wrong.

Mr. Schiavo has a duty and an obligation to make the decision to free his wife of medical interference with her process of dying.

It isn't a liberal or conservative issue.

The parents are a third party with no legal interest in the matter. They and their psychosis are irrelevent.

[Donailin]

305. I have a daughter

and I would have a hard time if someone tried to tell me I'm a third party. I brought her into this world, nursed her, provided for her, loved her more than myself -- more than anything, invested twenty years of my life putting her emotional, physical, educational and spiritual well being ahead of my own. A husband of five years (before her tragic heart attack)has more of a vested interested in her fate than her own parents? I dunno.

That being said, I'm a daughter. I would not want to be on life support or any other kind of support if I had no brain, no consciousness that enabled me to interact in a conscious way. Put me out of my misery.

This is a such an explosive issue. The husband is being practical and marital love is way different than parental love. The parents are being entirely emotional, and you can't blame them. As a mother, I know excactly what they're feeling -- hope, unrealistic hope, but hope nevertheless. Just a tragic situation, husband who wants to let go yesterday, parents who won't let go if they have a breath left in them.

Sigh. Shaking head. I would never want to be either party, it's a shame this is a national issue except inasmuch that it's illuminated the total importance of putting your wishes in writing.

[mondo joe]

312. But parenthood doesn't supercede the rights of the adult child

Parents may feel they have a more vested right, but they have a greatly lesser legal right, unless that right is conferred on them by their adult child.

Don't forget - we all choose our spouse but no one chooses their parent.

[Donailin]

317. Agreed

Like I said, tough situation. Heartbreaking. I see no outcome that will be satisfactory to all.

[mondo joe]

319. I think if her parents could accept the facts they'd be able to gain

some closure and some peace.

I have two daughters, and of course other family members. I'd hate to be in this spot. But I'd have to accept the facts, and I'd have to accept the wishes and choices of the adults involved.

[Stop_the_War]

302. Terri Schiavo is braindead!

[sbj405]

303. And when they die?

Terri will likely outlive them. Then what?

[NC_Nurse]

304. I bet her parents would feel differently if

they had to take her home and do ALL of her care themselves. If I were her husband I'd be tempted to let them at this point. If I were her, I'd want him to have the opportunity to get on with his life free of my lifeless presence. That's called love, not this circus the parents are creating.

Sadly, I bet being kept alive and cared for by her parents would be Terri's worst nightmare since most people with eating disorders have major control issues with their parents. What a clusterfuck this is.

[Riding this Donkey]

306. Parents cause eating disorders???? Well, I have heard that

society and men in relationships with the woman, in particular, cause women to have these types of issues. Very rarely the parent.

[NC_Nurse]

308. I didn't say they caused it.

I said that control issues with parents are often the root cause of eating disorders. Yes, I do think society plays a role in an obsession with being thin. But girls with control issues fall into that pit. If it were society and men's fault, why wouldn't ALL women have this disease?

Do you know ANYTHING about these disorders? It doesn't sound like it.

[Riding this Donkey]

309. Actually, have had personal experience, not me but a very close family

member and it had nothing to do with a parents controlling issues.

Thank god, everything has been resolved to this point.

People should really think before they go making assertions they know nothing about, like I don't know anything about it.

Please, can't we have conversation instead of flipping snide comments when we disagree?

[NC_Nurse]

331. Is it your sibling you are talking about?

Otherwise, I doubt you know the intimate details of this person's relationships with their parents.

I'm sorry if I came off as snide, but just because you know one person who has had an eating disorder doesn't mean that you know much about the disorder in general. Every case is different to some degree, but MOST have serious issues within their family of origin that usually involve control. Esp. the more serious cases, which Terri Schiavo obviously was...

But hey, now her parents can MAKE her eat! Yippee for them.

[Riding this Donkey]

332. As a matter of fact it was my sister. n/t

[NC_Nurse]

334. So your family doesn't have any issues?

I congratulate you.

Even in the same family, parents have different relationships with each sibling and each child reacts differently to the parenting they receive. That said, I don't claim to know what happened with your sister. I just said that most eating disorders spring from the type of family issues I mentioned.

[mondo joe]

310. Your man-hating is getting old.

No wonder you want to keep Terri's body alive in a Zombie state - anything to frustrate a husband, after all.

[Riding this Donkey]

311. Oh now I hate men......get a grip, I could say you hate parents and

brothers and sisters.

[mondo joe]

313. Except I don't hate parents. Some parents are great, some aren't.

And Terri's aren't, by their own admission.

And don't forget, her bulimia began in their home. I wouldn't be surprised if her father sexually molested her.

[Riding this Donkey]

318. OMG and you say you go by only the evidence! Prove this to me!

You talk about my emotions, you should take a look at your own, too.



Spelling and grammar edit.

[mondo joe]

320. I didn't say her father DID molest her. I said I wouldn't be surprised

if he did.

My neighbor the psychiatrist told me in her clinical experience there is almost never an eating disorder that doesn't stem from family of origin issues.

And given her parents' behavior that seems to fit.

Of course maybe he didn't molest her - maybe he's just a massive control freak who doesn't recognize her autonomy. That would also make sense of bulimia which is a control issue.

[mattclearing]

314. I'd take the anecdotal evidence of a husband over the parents anyday.

The parents in any case like this are completely biased.

The husband is infinitely more likely to have had such a conversation with his wife, and is much more likely to have a clearer picture of the difference between her wishes and that of her parents.

Still, none of this matters. The merits of the case are secondary to the fact that it is a manufactured controversy trumped up by Jeb Bush to give pro-life Republicans something to cheer about.

Isn't there something more productive we could be following?

[mondo joe]

316. Her parents didn't even know Terri was getting fertility treatments

And when she was a minor they were ignorant of her bulimia.

There's a lot they didn't know.

[Riding this Donkey]

321. Mondo Joe, I think in your heart of hearts, that you do really like me.

I like you to, but I just happen to really disagree with you on this one issue.



:)

[mondo joe]

322. In my heart of hearts you don't occupy any space

But on the boards you have a lot of disinformation that needs correcting.

[Riding this Donkey]

324. Same here.......so much for trying to be an adult. Put out a hand and it

gets bitten off.

I am really tired of you insinuating that my opinion is disinformation.

In case you haven't noticed, there are many people who disagree with you as well.

I am also really tired of you insinuating that I am a republican freep troll.

I wish you the best, I hope to have conversation with you in the future, but you have won this time, I cannot exasperate myself and defend myself constantly from your unkind, ill informed views regarding my posts.

[mondo joe]

325. Please cite facts to support your allegations

When you allege wrong doing please support your claims with evidence.

You'll have no problem then.

[Riding this Donkey]

326. Read through the thread you will find many instances, or look at

your own "My Posts" at header of DU. I am sure you will find many.

[mondo joe]

327. Please clarify your charges against the witnesses who heard

Terri say she didn't want life support.

Please explain why you believe their testimony is invalid, and support your allegations with evidence.

[Riding this Donkey]

328. I have done that umpteen times in this thread! Have you read through

it.

And why don't you answer the same question, but from my view and leave the court decision out of it. I have explained myself on that issue many times, but you don't want to hear, you don't believe it and that is ok.

[mondo joe]

329. Again, please specify your charges against the witnesses.

And provide evidence to support your allegations.

I will gladly answer any question you have about my position. Lay it on.

[SpaceBuddy008]

323. anyONE know? if her parents consulted this man from Brazil???

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/miracle.man.html

The Amazing Cures of a Brazilian Miracle Man

A gifted spirit medium, João de Deus incorporates spirit entities who perform physical surgery and psychic healing through him with miraculous results.

[ohio_liberal]

330. Spririts

can grow Terri Schiavo a new cerebral cortex?