brain dead, not brain dead - where are the doctors?

[donsu]

shouldn't the last word on Schievo's brain condition be the doctors?

doctors KNOW when a brain is dead.

I haven't kept up with all the details of this malarkey, but don't doctors have the last word? if they say the brain is dead, then it's dead.

are the parents fighting for a so-called miracle? are they religiously insane?

[mondo joe]

1. First off, no one said she's brain dead. She's in PVS

Persistent (or Permanent) Vegetative State.

And doctors don't have the last word on removal of life support - that's not their choice.

[Warpy]

5. Pretty much, although hospitals have gone to court

for some indigent patients with flat EEGs to have the support terminated. Usually there are no relatives around to authorize it in such cases, or to forbid it.

[Blind Tiresias]

25. You are right

This woman is not brain dead. Basically her cerebral cortex (the part of the brain that everyone knows and sees) does not function. If you were to look at her CT scan, her cortex would be mostly fluid cavities, with very little brain substance.

What makes her NOT BRAIN DEAD is the fact that the part of her brainstem, that controls sleep/wake cycle, autonomic functions (like GI function, blood pressure etc) and her breathing patterns is still intact. This part of the brain stem is called the Reticular Activating system, and is usually the most resistant to brain damage, so it is the last to die.

Essentially she has no meaningful interaction with her surroundings is not aware of anything, but does have the basic central nervous system funtions to keep her alive, provided someone takes care of her. Some of these people can 'snap out' of their coma depending on the extent of brain damage, but its probably not likely. Brain dead would mean she requires a ventilator to breathe and she probably would not have lasted this long. I hope this explanation helps.

Btw I am not a doctor, I am a Medical student who has just learned about coma and conditions mimicking coma

[Ilsa]

2. I heard yesterday that

the doctors hired by the courts to examine her, and well as Michael Schiavo's doctors say she is in PVS, and there is virtually no hope for any recovery. (They can't declare "absolutely no hope".)

[ewagner]

3. Conflicting opinions

have been given on whether she is in PVS or not....even Sen Frist got into the act by maki9ng a "diagnosis" on the basis of watching a VIDEO TAPE! Can you believe it?

[mondo joe]

6. True. I guess by OPINION I mean actual expert opinion

rather than people having baseless opinions. ;-)

[reprobate]

4. In plain english this means she has no higher brain functions.

She is left with no more than autonomic brain functions. She is able to breath on her own, and blink. But these are things that the lower brain handles with no help from the thinking brain.

It's what some have called the 'reptilian brain'.

[THUNDER HANDS]

7. so she's become a republican?

sorry, couldn't resist. :evilgrin:

[UTUSN]

8. An Objective, Professional Guardian ad Litem Concluded "no awareness"

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2270&ncid=2270&e=2&u=/krwashbureau/20050319/ts_krwashbureau/_bc_braindamagedwoman_guardian_wa

.... Wolfson was appointed by a Florida court in the fall of 2003 to be Schiavo's guardian ad litem, or guardian at law, to deduce Schiavo's best interests and represent neither her husband nor her parents but Terri Schiavo herself.

This makes Wolfson one of the very few people to have spent extended time with Schiavo and gauged her level of awareness without having a vested interest at stake.

In the end, after long hours at Schiavo's bedside and after poring over 30,000 pages of legal documents, Wolfson concluded that Schiavo was indeed in a permanent vegetative state. ....

But Schiavo never made eye contact. When Wolfson visited her when her parents were there, she never made eye contact with them either, he said. And for all of Wolfson's pleadings and coaxing, he never got what he most wanted: a sign. ....

Wolfson was dismayed to learn Friday that Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers, claimed that Schiavo tried to speak. "Terri does not speak," he said. "To claim otherwise reduces her to a fiction." ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[donsu]

10. this has become the religiously insane's fiction as truth

it's something like lemmings

mass religious insanity infecting the US congress.

somebody please put america in a straight jacket

[UTUSN]

18. It's Periodic Wingnut Psychosis Syndrome

The wingnuts regularly go into their "episodes" - McCARTHYism, witchhunts, religio-frenzies, jingoistic aggression, etc.

[Quixote1818]

9. The courts sided with experts that said she was in a Vegetative state

nt

[Walt Starr]

11. Well, seeing as how the doctors who have actually diagnosed her

have testified time and time again over the past fifteen years that she's dead, there really is no issue here.

She's dead, Jim.

[LisaL]

13. Well, why not provide the link to such a statement?

Drs. said she is dead?
Yea, right!

[Walt Starr]

16. REad the fucking case history

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[LisaL]

17. No one testified she is dead.

Why make such outrageous statements that are clearly not true?

[Walt Starr]

20. You must be a fast reader

:eyes:

[LisaL]

21. Do provide a quote from you link on someone testifying

that Terri is dead.

[Walt Starr]

22. The testimony stated clearly

she has no cerebral cortex.

You ARE your cerebral cortex. Without cerebral cortex, what is you, your personality, your feelings, your ability to see, hear, feel, IS GONE!

She's dead, Jim.

[LisaL]

23. Having no cerebral cortex is not the same as being brain dead.

Don't come up with your own definitions.

[Walt Starr]

24. Dude, she's dead. What was once Terri Shiavo no longer exists

Without your cerebral cortex, all you are is an animated corpse! Don't believe me? Pith a frog and see what happens.

[Hoping4Change]

30. MRI shows the cortex is gone only her reptilian brain is functioning.

"It's sad, but the MRI does not lie. Her cortex is gone so the only functioning part of her brain is the brain stem. She has no higher level function and no hope of recovery. . The seat of the soul is not in a magic place "somewhere", it is the cerebral cortex. If that's gone the person is gone."

The above quote is from blueeyedson on the following thread. Its very informative.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3300402&mesg_id=3301580

[LisaL]

12. You don't have to be a Dr. to know she is not brain dead.

She can breathe on her own, which means she is not brain dead.

[evil_orange_cat]

14. breathing is a non-cognitive function controlled by the brain-stem

she is cognitively brain dead...

[LisaL]

15. Why not read a definition of brain death

before making such statements?
"Brain death is the cessation and irreversibility of all brain function, including brain stem."
http://www.medstudents.com.br/neuro/neuro5.htm

Per definition, she is not brain dead.

[Walt Starr]

19. She has no cerebral cortex, only a cerebellum

the Cerebrum has been replaced with spinal fluid. She has no brain, only autonomic functions.

She's dead, Jim.

[Blind Tiresias]

26. Cerebellum does not work

If you dont have a motor cortex. You cannot coordinate movement and emotion if you dont have the connections for it. Philosophically she may be dead, but by medical definition she is not brain dead. Her brainstem, specifically her reticular activating system still works and it appears that most of the cranial nerve nuclei surrounding the RAS are intact. How do I know this? Because she still maintains tonic eye movements in response to simple neurologic exams that test brainstem function. She is not brain dead, and any doctor who tells you otherwise does not know what he/she is talking abt.

With that said, most doctors I know would recommend letting her go. I think she should be allowed to die. You probably do too. I know I would not want to live in this state, and I doubt anyone on this thread would either. There is no need to get hostile (not directed just at walt, but everyone who seems to get their blood boiled by this issue).

[joanski01]

27. Walt, you have the patience of a saint.

I admire you.

[Zhade]

28. Well, yes - unless you're an ignorant anti-science fundie.

They actually think they know more than the doctors who examined her!

[CindyDale]

29. Fact Versus Opinion

Fact: According to medical definition and experts who have examined her, Terri is in a vegetative state. She is not brain dead, however.

Opinion: Joe says that Terri is brain dead because she will probably not recover and her brain shows evidence of extensive damage.


Just thought I'd point out the difference because I see this get confused so much both here and even in the media now (more so among Republicans, but even among Democrats, and it is getting tiresome).