I think that we should withold water and food from all Alzheimers

[Riding this Donkey]

patients that can't put a spoon or fork to their mouth.

My god, these people have holes in their brains and they are just a shell anyways, and they will live like this for years and their souls have already gone on to heaven.

I mean really if these people can't feed themselves, and they got not brain to speak of, why should we feed them. They said they didn't want extraordinary means to keep them alive.

I think that putting a spoonful of water and a morsel of food in their mouth is way too of an extradinary measure and we should starve and dehydrate them all to death, i mean after all it is their wish, right?

[BlueJazz]

1. Sure...sounds good to me!

[physioex]

2. Hmmm.....

For me personally, I would prefer to be put to sleep. You can dothat in open minded places like Europe. Jack Kevorkian was a great man in my mind and we need more physicians like him.

[Swede]

3. Wrong. They still have brain activity.

Unlike certain DUers.

[Riding this Donkey]

5. Not the point, they don't want extra ordinary measures, they are

completely incapacitated and can't feed themselves, what is the difference?

They will never ever get better either.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. Your analogy doesn't hold water

we're comparing apples and oranges. There are different levels of severity with Alzheimers. Schiavo has no cerebral cortex. Before you post flamebait, how about doing some research into the science behind this case?

[Cha]

30. It is the POint!

You just don't see it.

[Gman]

4. It depends

If they're rich, white and GOP then, for God's sake, life is precious. Of course we keep them alive.

If they're poor, then they need to do for theirselves. This is not a socialist country.

[unhappycamper]

6. Naaaaaaaah. Keep it away from rethugs.

[NMDemDist2]

7. there is a huge difference between ordinary measures like holding

a cup or a spoon to someone's mouth and surgically installing a feeding tube into their abdomen

if you can swallow and chew of course it is correct to feed you, if you are just inserting already digested calories for the body to burn with no help from the person, it seems to me that's a pretty extraordinary situation, especially after years and years and years

[Merlot]

8. It probably was their wish not to become a burden on their families

[Kathy in Cambridge]

9. Obviously, basic physiology is lost on some DUers

:eyes:

For a scientific review of what is happening hee, check out Bouncy Ball's thread from about a week ago. She wrote some great stuff:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3267910

<snip>
"The only documented case of someone recovering from a permanent vegetative state came in the early 1980s, said Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurology professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Schiavo.

And in that case, the patient's scan showed no brain atrophy, Cranford said. "The one thing we learned from that, you look at shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Terri has massive shrinkage."

<snip>
Here's Terri Schiavo, with her cerebral cortex completely missing, and people think she's just going to grow it back? Or just wake up and start talking without one? Without one, your body can do nothing but involuntary things. Your heart can beat, you can breathe, you can regulate your body temperature (sweat, etc), because all those things are things our "lower" brain tells our body to do automatically (you don't will your heart to beat, right?).

Anything beyond that, she is simply completely incapable of doing, lacking any brain tissue to tell her body to do those things. She can't even form a thought. (We don't think with our lower brain.) She has no consciousness.

And shame on the people who have preyed on her parents and made them believe otherwise. Seriously, that's just about criminal. It's like taking the engine out of a car and saying "ANY day now, it's just going to start up and we'll be able to drive it around! If you just pray hard enough. And fight the court system hard enough, and get enough publicity about it. Maybe if we lit some more candles that car with no engine will start and drive around."

[Riding this Donkey]

11. Ah, who comes out of end stage alzheimers? n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

15. Not you , obviously.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. You obviously don't know anything about Alzheimers

nor did you take the time to read all the scientific evidence behind the Schiavo case. Ergo, your argument, which is a poor analogy to begin with, is moot.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. Stop using an analogy that has no bearing on the Schiavo case

your poor grasp of the case at hand doesn't warrant an answer.

[Riding this Donkey]

32. That would be your opinion and probably some others on here too.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. Actually if they have a living will describing what they want

I think we should follow that.

If they have a next of kin, we should follow what they want (within the limits of legality, of course).

The biggest thing you need to understand is that "WE" don't decide these things, EACH PERSON SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES, and lacking that, their next of kin.

We should not be trying to destroy that.

My friend's mother is dying of an inoperable brain tumor. She can't see or hear, she has no idea who she is, who he is, or where she is. He refused the feeding tube (he is her only kin). He said "Why would I leave her in that cold, dark world even one day longer than she had to be?"

You are advocating taking away his right to decide that for his mother.

[etherealtruth]

12. You know ,the natural progression of the disease...

... may lead to an inability to swallow as well as other functioning... do you insert a feeding tube? If you don't, do they not die from Alzheimer's (not dehydration/starvation)? Is that not the course of fatal illness?

[mcscajun]

Don't be absurd. Ordinary feeding is just that. Ordinary.

I'm not going down this slippery slope with you.

Extraordinary measures are well-defined. Feeding an Alzheimer patient as if he/she were an infant isn't in the definitions.

Get Real.

[DearAbby]

13. I disagree with this, having cared for people in this condition

They are able to eat they should be fed, They will come to a point when they will be unable to eat, due to being unable to swallow/ forgeting how to swallow. But it still is the matter for the family to decide. We should not be in the business of saying who should live and who should not.

Consider the case in Texas, Baby Sun Hudson. True the child would not have lived without the respirator, but it was removed because of the Mother's inability to pay for the treatment. Without her consent.

We are beginning to make life and death judgments on people's ability to pay and if they are viable human beings...very dangerous indeed.

[Riding this Donkey]

19. I was being extremely sarcastic with my post.

I think it is sad that this is what it will come down to as well.

[BrklynLiberal]

33. And that decision was enabled by a law that George W. Bush signed

when he was Governor of Texas!!!

EDIT: This is a reply to the post about the baby Sun Hudson in Texas who was taken off life support against his mother's wishes.

[Walt Starr]

14. If I were in that state, put a gun to my head and pull the trigger

That would be my wish. If what it requires is that food and water be withheld, withhold it from me!

[sandnsea]

16. sucking and swallowing

Evidence of the most basic human reflexes. Fetuses begin to suck and swallow at around 12-15 weeks. Terri Schiavo can't even do that.

[Riding this Donkey]

27. She swallows her saliva........n/t

[sandnsea]

34. she doesn't suck

She doesn't know what to do with food or even have a reflex to desire food or water. If she didn't swallow her saliva either, would you accept that she is terminally brain damaged then?

[Riding this Donkey]

37. no........because she breathes, her heart beats there is something

left to her brain.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. Every time she "swallows" she could choke..That is why she is fed thru a

tube into her stomach.

[Coastie for Truth]

17. In point of fact

Anti-biotics are withheld, as are statins (cholesterol control), BP drugs, diabetes drugs - and nature is allowed to take its course.

[Riding this Donkey]

23. but not food, why? n/t

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

21. We know you think you should decide for everyone.

But if we can maintain law, individuals will have the right to make their own choices, no matter how much you want to play god.

[Warpy]

22. Alzheimer's patients do that for themselves.

When a patient with advanced Alzheimer's refuses to eat or drink when someone else attempts to feed them, it's a signal that the disase has run its course and the body has had enough. Force feeding them at that point with a tube is cruel.

I suppose that ignorant post was to equate a patient with early Alzheimer's who can still recognize family menbers, walk, and sit in the sunshine with a woman who has no higher brain functions at all.

It failed miserably.

[Mr.Green93]

24. You are right

too many of our finite health care resources are being squandered on patients who will never recover productive lives.

[Az]

25. Completely different situation

An alzheimers patient still has a cerebral cortex. Handy for creating minds. Schiavo has not cerebral cortex. Her mind is gone. Dead. nonexistant.

[SidDithers]

28. If that is what they wish...

who are you to ridicule their wishes?

:eyes:

Sid

Edit: speeling

[BlueEyedSon]

31. Maybe we should withhold food from people with broken legs

and the common cold, i dunno.

We have derailed natural selection with the invention of medicine, dontcha think?

[the_spectator]

35. Know who else believes that?

"I think that we should withold water and food from all Alzheimers patients..."

Guess what? That idea has been openly supported by Michael Schiavo's main medical expert - Dr. Cranford. Sure, the parents in this case have been co-opted by fundies, but Michael has been co-opted by what can only be described as pro-death extremists.

[gollygee]

36. Nothing should be done with *all* of any group

Every case should be treated individually based upon a living will, and in its absence based upon the next of kin going through the process Michael Schaivo went through.

[mondo joe]

38. riding the donkey continues to think there is one right choice for all

and fails to recognize that this is about a PERSONAL choice.

[Quixote1818]

39. Look, the ONLY thing that matters is that Terri did NOT want to live

in a vegetative state. That is what six different courts have determined. Why would you want her to live against her will? What is it you don't understand here? This is not about who should live but about free will!

[Moderator]

41. Locking...

Flamebait.