A thought and question regarding .50 caliber rifles and others.

[Dave Reynolds]

Do .50 caliber rifles pose a greater threat to airliners than any other large caliber sporting rifle? I have searched for any kind of test results, to no avail. Buzzflash has been rather stridently posting links to anti-.50 cal sites. See today's front page at

http://www.buzzflash.com/

I do not support the NRA. I am in favor of responsible gun ownership. If anyone has any link to tests done on real planes, please let me know, as I would like to form an honest opinion about this.

I shot Buzzflash (bad pun intended) an e-mail with my thoughts.



Hello,

I would like to start off by stating that I thoroughly enjoy your site. I have been reading for nearly a year now.

However, that being said, I take issue with all the .50 caliber story links. We of the left have made numerous condemnations about the fear-mongering and hypocrisy of the media, the right, and the neo-cons.

These links to agenda sites or news articles with opinion only and no fact about how these guns can knock down an airliner reek of fear-mongering. Since we castigate the right and the media for these type of news stories, if we in turn use the same tactic does that not make us hypocrites? Could this not be used against us? Could the "radical" anti-gun advocates then be called "neo-libs"?

Again, I treasure this site and the news I get from it. It is my opinion (probably meaningless) that this type of stance is detrimental to taking back control of the government, as it tends to reinforce the notion that Democrats wish to take away guns.

Thank you,

Dave Reynolds

[gizmo1979]

1. The 50 caliber is what's used in anti aircraft guns.

[TyObe]

3. Yep, except they're chain fed and radar directed.

ntxt

[lastknowngood]

2. The 50 cal has more punch and makes a bigger hole but

it would be just as easy to bring one down with 30-06 or 7mmMag. The real issue is if you use amour pericing ammo you could take out an armored vehicle

[Dave Reynolds]

4. I still don't quite get

how punching one hole with a legal, off-the-shelf firearm could bring down a plane. Are they that vulnerable? Unless the round was incendiary it would not even ignite the fuel. I have not found armor piercing or tracer round available for sale. All the articles and organizations Buzzflah link to imply that it's just a trip to the gun shop will net you a 747-killer.

[ulysses]

5. depressurization? n/t

[Dave Reynolds]

9. Not enough altitude at takeoff or landing,

and an episode of "Mythbusters" (I know, shitty source) tried explosive decompression and found it unlikely to be caused by a bullet hole. Air-disaster movies make it look good, though.

[gizmo1979]

23. They didn't use a 50 cal.

When the U>S used the 50 cal it was as a machine gun that shoots 400 rounds a minute.The 50 cal rifle is highly effective,regular joe would have no reason to own one unless he's hunting elephant.

[slackmaster]

36. Depends on how you define "no reason"

Personally I think if someone wants to shoot at paper targets at ridiculous distances, or wants to own such a rifle as part of a gun collection, or wants to buy it just to piss off the people who want to ban them, those are all perfectly good reasons.

[gizmo1979]

22. Have you seen the size of a 50 caliber bullet

It's about 4 inches long 1 inch wide it's huge.You can hit things from 1 mile away with it,which is why it's also used as a sniper rifle.Hitting aircraft it tears huge holes coming out huge!You can buy tracer rounds.

[slackmaster]

32. You are thinking of the cartridge case

The bullet is 1/2 inch in diameter and between 1.5 and 2 inches long.

You can hit things from 1 mile away with it...

Not without a lot of practice.

Hitting aircraft it tears huge holes coming out huge!

No, hitting an aircraft generally makes a 1/2 inch entry hole and a 1/2 inch exit hole.

You can buy tracer rounds.

If your state law allows you to.

[gizmo1979]

37. Why are you so whacked about a 50 caliber

sound like a repug gun whacko to me.

[slackmaster]

38. Hey, I just gave some factual information

You can take it or leave it, I really don't care. You're the one who's posting wacky material.

P.S. You're welcome.

[gizmo1979]

44. There is no way

A round leaves the samesize hole going in as coming out!As soon as the round hits an object it distorts thus flattening out so the exit whole would be much larger,doesn't matter what you're shooting at unless it's a piece of paper!As for the size I was talking the entire cartridge itself which is actually 3.87 inches long.It may have been along time ago but I can still remember firing the 50 cal into broken down jeeps used as targets,while I was in the army.

[Wonk]

25. Put a round through an operating jet engine? nt

[slackmaster]

34. Any bullet, even a lucky shot with a BB gun, could down a plane that way

The engines are vulnerable to any object they happen to suck in, including birds.

[WLKjr]

6. did you see this on CBS too???

I hated the way that dude kept reffering to the 'liberal' gun laws..... :D :D :D !

This is the NRA we are talking about, they made the gun laws.


I can't believe that.....wait yes I can now that I think about it, that that guy was getting 50 cal's out of the us on PLANES!!!!


WTF is wrong with this picture?

[Dave Reynolds]

10. I read the text,

it just was such a piece of shit report. This guy who flew the guns out of country didn't seem like too much of an "expert".

[WLKjr]

12. He seemed like an arrogant idiot

I still can't get over teh fact that it was so easy for him to do it... damn I am still like wtf...

[Dave Reynolds]

16. Yep, pretty easy.

Pre-9/11, I was going to fly to Alaska. Being totally unaware of grizzly behavior around snoring humans in tents :-) I took an 8-round 12 gauge pump shotgun with a short barrel and pistol-grip stock (the convenience store special, right?).

All I had to do to get this on the plane as checked baggage was to unlock the case to prove that it was not loaded, and the ammunition was not with it.

I have not heard any changes to that rule.

[gizmo1979]

24. It was easy for him and he looked middle eastern!

So one can only imagine how easy it would be for anyone else.

[MrSlayer]

7. Can't buy a .50? Make your own!

[Dave Reynolds]

18. That is SO going on my Christmas list. /nt

[WLKjr]

19. That's a joke right?!?!?!

is that for real?

[Junkdrawer]

26. Here's the only image at www.birdman.org

[gratuitous]

8. The bringing down a jet scenario sounds far-fetched

(Though I won't discount the ingenuity and inventiveness of someone truly determined to shoot down a jet if a .50 caliber rifle is all they have to do it with.)

But what is the utilitarian value of a .50 caliber rifle? Are there some strains of "super deer" running around out there that can't be brought down with anything smaller?

[Dave Reynolds]

13. To my very limited knowledge

there is no "real" hunting use for a .50 cal. To me, it just seems like the big-man-small-penis thing. But my real concern is the notion that if such a fuss can be raised about *this* particular firearm, what would it take to vilify grampa's .30-06?

[htuttle]

14. Vorpal Bunnies in the North Woods

They have Great GNASHING Teeth!

They're terrifying if they charge you! You wanna make sure to have a lot of stopping power!

[Dave Reynolds]

17. Run away!!! Run awaaaaaayyyyy!!

:-)

[gratuitous]

20. That rabbit's DYNAMITE!

"And the Lord did grin . . ."

You know, I really should brush up on knowledge and lore of shootin' irons, but my personal aversion to them just gets in the way of that.

Of course, there IS something to be gained by the ignoramous method of asking patently obvious questions -- obvious that is to anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of guns.

[Toots]

11. A lot of the old Flint locks were fifty caliber

I doubt any one of them could hit an airplane on the ground from more than fifty meters. A fifty caliber machinegun on the other hand has the capability of downing an aircraft in flight.

[Dave Reynolds]

15. No doubt a machine gun could do it,

but the ones mentioned are the civilian "sporting" models..bolt action or single shot.

Granted, a silly weapon to own, but I just can't imagine taking down a jumbo jet with a bolt action.

[Broca]

21. Nothing magical about the .50 in itself

but as others have pointed out, the type of round means a good deal. A metal piercing round of 300 grains has the laws of physics behind it versus a .30 caliber 150 grain round. A metal/armor piercing .50 or .60 caliber can chip about 3 inches deep into hardened armor depending on the angle. The .460 Weatherby, the .458 elephant guns have been around for many decades and the 45-70 government even longer. The current fetish with the .50 is a marketing thing like the "hemi" (which has been around for a hundred years). Muzzle loaders come in calibers up to .60 but generally fire softer mostly lead or copper/steel jacketed lead rounds.

[solinvictus]

27. Small arms..

Without going into details that would arouse Homeland Security, the Viet Cong brought down our aircraft with precision shots from old Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles and normal cartridges. The .50 is a gun that turns lots of money into noise.

[Dave Reynolds]

28. I wondered if it had been done,

I just thought that all the outrage over that one gun could potentially lead to outrage over ALL rifles.

That 28 pound .50 cal "sporting" rifle just seems to difficult to sneak around airport perimeters. I really think that in the US it is just another toy for people with lots of dollars but no sense (again, bad pun intended).

[Xithras]

29. It's mostly fear mongering

Can a .50 bring down an aircraft? Sure, if you hit it in the engine. Of course, shooting a 10 foot long aircraft engine moving at 100+MPH at a range great enough to provide an acceptably level firing position would require a sniper with Olympic Gold Medal quality shooting accuracy. It would be impossible at a range of over 1/4 mile (the guns can kill at a mile, but are only accurate against stationary targets at that range), and the sniper would only get a single shot.

And railcars? Hardened steel. At a mile you'd just leave a nice dent. At a few hundred yards you could punch a hole in it, but if you're that close a Molotov and an open valve could accomplish the same thing.

For what it's worth, I have a semiauto .30-06 that could probably do a lot more damage to an aircraft than a .50 could (I can let loose 10 rounds in the time he takes to fire one), but attacking the .50 is politically expedient. It makes it look like the politicians are "doing something".

[Dave Reynolds]

30. That was my take on it,

keep people afraid. I just hate it when it comes from Buzzflash, as I thought they were on our "side".

Hysteria serves no one, except repubs.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. The short answer: No.

There ARE .50 calbre weapons that MIGHT pose a threat to airliners, but civilians aren't likely to own them. THIS: is what you need to take out an airplane, and most of them are in military hands.

[slackmaster]

33. .50 BMG is the "Terrorist Weapon O' Choice" du jours

It's only a little more powerful than the .460 Weatherby and several other large calibers designed for hunting. The rifles are way too expensive, bulky, and heavy to be of serious interest to criminals.

The .50 BMG rifle is a target for gun banners because it's perceived as the biggest thing that can be sold as an ordinary firearm (as opposed to anything with a larger diameter bullet, which is classified as a Destructive Device).

If the gun banners have their way with the .50 BMG there will be an unintended consequence they won't like, e.g. sudden rise in popularity of some other long-range caliber.

[Dave Reynolds]

35. And therefore,

the next long-range caliber becomes the next target. psst..I hear a Daisy BB gun can blind pilots. :7

[sierrajim]

40. In this gun unfriendly state CA

A destructive device (DD) is a firearm useing fixed ammunition (cartridge) over .60 caliber. So what some people are doing here is taking the .50 BMG cartridge and opening up the neck to take a .510 caliber slug wha-la its not a banned .50 caliber now.

[slackmaster]

42. Yes, the law is very specific about what is a .50 BMG

It gives measurements in thousandths of an inch.

So what some people are doing here is taking the .50 BMG cartridge and opening up the neck to take a .510 caliber slug wha-la its not a banned .50 caliber now.

Small problem with that idea - Fixed-ammo firearms over .50 are federal destructive devices, with exceptions for shotguns and classic sporting rifles.

But you can take a .50 BMG rifle, short-chamber or long-chamber it by a millimeter and have a legal weapon (as long as it won't chamber a .50 BMG round).

[unhappycamper]

39. a .50 cal is a "sporting weapon?"

Well, fuck. I can go hunting with a 16" cannon from a battleship. Is that "sporting?"

[slackmaster]

41. If you want to shoot inaninate objects 20 miles away it's OK with me

Pretty expensive hobby.

:shrug:

[Medium Baby Jesus]

43. Wrong Forum n/t