55 years for selling pot

[Dez]

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4179.html

American justice at work. Pot sellers are getting more jail time that rapists, child molesers, and murderers. Our justice system is broken, and we need to fix it.

[DistressedAmerican]

1. END PROHIBITION! IT IS A SCAM!

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Amazing how otherwise intelligent life can be so STUPID at times...

Assistant US Attorney Robert Lund had no problem with the stiff sentence. Pot-seller Angelos was "a purveyor of poison..."

Poison?:eyes:

[Goathead]

16. Your sigline scares me!

It's good, but sacry!:hide:

[Cooley Hurd]

17. I call it "Bush morphs into a higher life-form."

;)

[Paranoid_Portlander]

77. U.S. atty Lund needs to be sued for slander.

Because pot has never killed anyone, unlike poisons.

[shanti]

91. betcha he's mormon

but jeez, caffeine is poison to them too!

[Norbert]

3. Ken Lay should have been a dope dealer

The he might have received some justice.

[Dez]

4. Cruel & unusual punishment

here in America. How can the courts get away with this crap??

[tofubo]

5. mandatory minimums

they have to use the guidelines set forth by congress
i read that the average time incarcerated for murder is 14 years, 55 for some smoke is reasonable, no ??

[DistressedAmerican]

7. The Ashcroft And Gonzalez Depts Of Injustice Get To Decide Who

Stays Out And Who Goes Away! Martha locked up, Ken Lay still walking around. Hell these guys even felt the need to get some revenge on Tommy Chong. It is INSANE!

America doesn't even remember or expect accountability these days! Maybe as a society we just freaking deserve what we get?

With assholes like these running the show, we all have to worry!

[Pushed To The Left]

6. That is sickening

Why aren't the mandatory minimum sentences given to violent criminals instead of drug offenders? I absolutely despise the drug war. The prisons are filled up with non-violent drug offenders and violent criminals have to be released early due to overcrowding. The way I see it, anybody who supports mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenders is soft on violent crime.

[Dez]

64. Let's keep this thread alive! n/t

[Discord]

8. I'll never understand the logic behind marijuana

prohibition. If they decriminalized pot, but kept everything else the way it is it would be a win win situation for the gov't. They can still overfund the "war on drugs" but take out the drug thats more widely used than prescribed anti-depressants, by people from all walks of life, and open up revenue and an industry that could make the rewards two-fold. I just don't get it. You know how much of a danger to society pot-heads are.

They are only dangerous to the contents of your cupboards and refrigerator.

[Dez]

10. Get involved

write your congressmen, senators until they lisen to us.
http://usmjparty.com/

[Discord]

12. Been involved for many years.

Have written and informed, have learned and studied, have protested and rallied, have even been jailed.

[Deja Q]

9. I am hardly pro-drug, but murderers and rapists deserve more jail time.

[K-W]

18. Just how much jail time does someone deserve for smoking a plant? EOM

[Deja Q]

54. All right, I'll bite, but be warned...

None.

People should have the freedom to blitz their brains any way they want.

Putting draconian laws with asinine punishments on selling drugs does no good and only forces the government to spend more money keeping the people in prison, with free room and board and free cable TV.

Make the junk legal and regulated and you'll find that the prisons would lose a lot of its inmates. And then because the population goes down, the government prisons won't get as much funding and then they'll suffer.

It's always about money in the end... (how very odd. :sarcasm: )

[freebird1]

11. A local neighborhood cannabis shoppe is in order !

It's a lovely day for a stroll down the block to purchase a package of cannabis from the local purveyor of fine spirits and perhaps a bottle of wine. Imagine that both are legally grown, produced, taxed and sold.

Think of the ramifications. Cannabis is the largest cash crop both in this country and across the world. If it were sold legally, the finical rewards in the form of taxes on the product combined with vast monies redirected away from trying cases in court and warehousing the adult users could go a long way toward helping to find and subsidize solutions for our suffering planet.

:think: it's about time!

[Discord]

13. would be a wonderful day indeed.

I would rather see marijuana legal than either cigarettes and/or alchohol. Both contibute to the deaths of over 100,000 people in the US alone every year...

Whens the last time you heard of someone dying from pot smoking?

[Dez]

14. It's up to us to end the insanity

the politicians wont change the laws unless they get LOTS of pressure from THE PEOPLE. We need to write to them, and past this story, and show them how they are ruining lives, while letting violent criminals out of jail to make room for drug users/sellers.

[0007]

50. The politicians find big bucks and political support through

ignorance people in drugs.

[Dez]

51. We need to change the corruption

and let them know we will not stand for anymore of it.

[0007]

62. In the early 50's I believed that the laws on drugs would be change by

the 60's. I was wrong! I have protested, I've marched, I've written, I've called, I've been jailed, I've separated myself from society and the wall is still there.

It isn't about the people any longer it is about big fat greedy pig pals that suck the tit of the wealthy.

A bullet to the head will quiet anyone.

[Dez]

63. I am posting here to make people aware

of the injustices of the war on drug users. If everybody wrote theri congressmen/women, they would HAVE to listen to us.

[0007]

65. Who in the fuck isn't aware of the injustices of the war on drugs?

The little blue haired church ladies even know.

[Dez]

66. I suppose people wont get involved until

their own children are caught in the war on drug users.

[freebird1]

15. Welcome to my Utopia

Saving the planet will take money and working together.

If you're not part of the solution ~ then you are part of the problem !

[Dez]

20. Are you Freebird from WBS native chat? n/t

[Freebird12004]

41. ~

[freebird1]

78. no n/t

[Heidi]

19. Hey, we have a prison industrial complex to support!

Just think of all crooked politicians and private prison contractors who'd lose their jobs and have to start growing and selling ganja to earn a living, if we didn't sentence those no-good pot sellers to long prison terms. :sarcasm:

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

[SouthernDem2004]

21. You really think that is the reason?

[K-W]

22. It is certainly a part of it.

The corporations who own prisons rely on a constantly growing prison population to fuel thier bottom line.

[Dez]

23. American slavery alive and well

in 2005.

[SouthernDem2004]

28. Only 7% of 2 million adult prisoners are held in private facilities.

This is not a valid argument. The industry does not have that kind of influence. States lose alot of money housing people for these minor charges.

The only reason marijuana is still illegal is the stigma that has been attached to it. It is now a "moral" issue to a large segment of the population. Until that perception is gone, it will remain illegal.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

29. Nope.......................

The main reason pot is still illegal is that many law enforcement agencies around the country have come to depend upon the $$ garnered by the seizure of property from drug raids. Since growers have moved indoors to capitalize on the controlled environs that indoor grow-ops can provide, growers have become easy pickings for law enforcement. In short, just follow the money.

[SouthernDem2004]

30. You get that info based on what exactly?

As a Police Officer I have to say you are wrong. We do not get that much from seizures. Most people arrested do not have anything to seize. Most vehicles have liens so we do not bother with those. The same can be said for homes which they seldom have anyway.

TV is not the real world. In the real world seizures are few and far between. Also it takes along time to get seized property or money released. Also, the Feds take about half of anything.

[Dez]

31. Seizures are a crime.

A crime against drug users, there is no way to justify it, or minimize it.

[SouthernDem2004]

33. Huh?

The things seized are purchased with money made illegally. Not to mention they did not pay any taxes on it....

[Dez]

34. Cops don't ask how things are paid for.

They will seize if it's suspected of being bought with drug money. Penalties are much more severe for drug users/sellers, than for violent crimes. it's a pity this country has allowed this to happen, where violent prisoners are released to make room for drug criminals.
Hey, prohibition failed for alcohol, and it's failed for cannabis too.

[SouthernDem2004]

36. Wrong.

When something is seized a Seizure Hearing is held. If the suspect can show the asset was obtained lawfully they get it back. I would have to say they get it back a good percentage of the time.

[Dez]

37. Why do users have vehicles seized then?

just your average pot smoker, not a dealer.

[SouthernDem2004]

84. They do not:

Property is normally only seized if it is involved in a felony. Your average pot smoker is not running 100 pounds of weed down the interstate.

The Feds have to approve any seizures. They are very strict.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

32. I was referring to a reference in Michael Pollan's

"Botany of Desire" in which he states that the legal jurisprudence in this country has allowed for property seizures whether or not a accused is convicted. Pollan states:

"More drug arrests are for crimes involving marijuana than any other drug: nearly 700,000 in 1998, 88% of them for possession. Marijuana cases account for most of the asset forfeitures that law enforcement budgets have come to rely on."

As law enforcement, your mileage may vary and your experience may speak differently. But, Mr Pollan's example is not the first time I have seen drug arrests for revenue precedent being set.

[SouthernDem2004]

35. Mr. Pollan is using misleading numbers.

Most drug arrest are misdemeanor. All asset forfeitures have to go through the Feds.

I worked interdiction at one point and all we really got was vehicles and cash. Vehicles were rare since most had leins or were rented.

True story:
Stopped a vehicle on the interstate for speeding. I spoke to the driver and he seemed rather nervous. I separated the driver and passenger. Spoke to both and they both gave completely different stories of where they were going and where they coming from. I asked the driver if he had anything illegal in the vehicle and he immediately looked at the trunk of the vehicle and then said no. (Guilt reflex) At that point I knew something was in the trunk. blah blah blah Searched the vehicle found 2 eight balls and $110,000. Neither suspect would claim the money. Both stated they did not know how it got there and it was not theirs. (It was on top of their luggage.) They did not even want to take a receipt for the money. I literally had to force the driver to take the receipt. We told them they could come back and claim the "found" money but they never did.


Rare find but it was amusing.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

40. According to this article, the state can also seize property..........

in drug raids:

"Robert Doyle knew his 23-year-old daughter, Dina, had been running with the wrong crowd and that she had been arrested for drug possession.

But the Glendale Heights man says he didn't fully understand the depth of his daughter's troubles.

That is, until last August when police confiscated the 1998 Chevrolet Corvette he had purchased only 14 months earlier, arguing it was linked to drug crimes.

Now, nearly a year later, Doyle still is fighting to get the car back."

http://www.fa-ir.org/ai/property_seizure.htm

Also, please explain how Mr. Pollan's numbers are misleading.

[Dez]

42. Authorities have legalized

grand theft auto, as long as they're the one doing the stealing, uh, I mean seizing.

[SouthernDem2004]

85. Reply:

Do you have another link to that story? Something does not add up. When you seized a vehilce the agency that seizes the vehicle has to pay off any outstanding leans on the vehicle.

Looks like Mr. Doyle is just out of luck. I mean his daughter paid for the car and it is in her name also.

If you read the sentence you quoted it would appear that most seizures are from marijuana possession charges. That is not the case. Most seizures are for transport and sell charges, not possession.

[shanti]

93. re:

"Most seizures are for transport and sell charges, not possession."

got a link for those stats? sorry, but i don't buy that at all. most people are not sellers, they're users, so it just stands to reason...

[SouthernDem2004]

94. Reply:

Possession is a misdemeanor, Sell and transport are felonies. Seizures for misdemeanors are not that common. The Feds frown at misdemeanor seizures.

No, I do not have the stats. I know how the system works because I have had to do the paper work and deal with the Feds.

Also, there are alot more people running dope then you think. It is usually not transported through the states in single large shipments. Just think about the amount of marijuana consumed in a day in lets say NY. In order to meet demand there is an almost constant movement of drugs. When I worked interdiction we often worked under a Fed Task Force. The detail would consist of numerous agencies from several states along an interstate. You would be surprised how many hits we got in a single day.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

95. What doesn't add up?........................

Ronald Reagan gave law enforcement agencies a powerful weapon when he enacted the 1986 Anti-Drug Abuse Act. Not only did it pave the way for draconian mandatory minimum sentencing, it also allowed police forces to fill their coffers with seized property and assets. Granted, some of the seized assets DO cover the costs of liens on houses and cars, but can this account for the amount of all the forfeitures?

One article I found written by a former counsel to the US House on the Judiciary refutes your federal-only property seizure claim:

"The proceeds of forfeited property go to law enforcement agencies that make the seizures, not to the general federal treasury. This creates a powerful incentive to seize and forfeit property, even in unmerited cases."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/snitch/primer/

I did read the sentence I quoted and it says what it says. I have also provided you with links to evidence that supports my claim. If you disagree with me, fine. But give me some evidence to back your take on the situation, and please don't call me wrong and not back it up.

[SouthernDem2004]

96. Hmmm

I am not sure what you are asking. Only part of seized assets go to local agencies. I know this for a fact because I have done the paperwork. Give me a while to try and find a link to the actual law. The internet is cluttered with alot of junk these days.

[Dez]

39. Nazi style tactics in America.

Who would have thought America could become like nazis!

[meganmonkey]

57. "Botany of Desire" is one of my favorite books!!!

I recommend it to everyone interested in agriculture, and folks who would appreciate looking at things from the perspective that we are here to serve the plants. It is great! (runs away to dig up her copy of it and reread it for the 5th time!)

:toast:

[Dez]

58. Who's the author? n/t

[meganmonkey]

79. Michael Pollan n/t

[Dez]

80. Thanks,. hope the Library has it. n/t

[spacelady]

69. I just had to respond, because coincidentally

the front page of the Mobile Register (Alabama) has a GIANT (2 full inside pages) article titled "Small-town cops, Big-time Busts" which describes how local police "can't stop speeders on I-65, but they can make drug busts--and do they ever". In the past year police in the small city of Saraland, AL (pop. approx 12,000) have "seized illegal drugs, untaxed beer and cigarettes and $608,000 in cash". Not that much, right?

Apologizing for lack of link, the online paper does not seem to be updated & I am very new at this.

[SouthernDem2004]

82. Reply:

I lived in Mobile for about 15 years. :) Al.com may have a link.

Not much actually. They at the most got $304,000. Probably alot less then that. Budget wise that is not much for a Police Department.

[shanti]

92. ding ding ding!

we have a winner! they aren't going to let that goose (ganga prohibition) just disappear like that, too much $$$ involved.

[K-W]

38. Actually it is a valid argument.

When did I claim it was anything more than "a part of it"

Perhaps you should read more carefully next time. And perhaps you should realize that public prisons contract out work and purchase products, services, and supplies. The prison industry is much bigger than privately owned prisons.

And your claim that the only reason it is still illegal is the stigma is patently ludicris. First the odds that such a thing would have one cause are pretty slim to begin with. Secondly, the main reason there is a stigma is massive amounts of taxpayer money fueling propaganda.

The war on drugs serves many purposes, one of those purposes happens to be lining the pockets of the corporations that supply and run public and private prisons. It is a big industry.

[SouthernDem2004]

86. As long as people keep speaking about these conspiracy theories it is

going to remain illegal.

[K-W]

97. Conflicts of interest arent conspiricy theories.

And me discussing the fact that some people and municipalities benefit from a large prison population isnt contributing to the prohibition of narcotics.

[SouthernDem2004]

99. In a way it is...

It is a case of the messenger killing the message. If the messenger makes claims they can not support people tend to ignore or dismiss them. Do you believe anything Bush says these days? Do you even listen to him? The answer is probably no. Why? Because he made claims he could not backup.

I personally support legalizing marijuana as do the people I work with. Would we ever protest for legalizing or get involved in anyway? The answer is no. Why? Well, its the "face" of the movement we do not want to be associated with. In my opinion the far-left is just as bad as the far-right. Each side is intolerant, filled with hate and full of conspiracy theories. The far left is unfortunately very vocal about legalizing so it appears to be a far left issue although it is not.
The quickest way to get marijuana legalized is for the far-left to remain silent. Let the moderates push the medical issue. It will slowly gain acceptance. A bunch of hippies yelling legalize and No blood for Oil is not going to help.
Lol, my opinion is not going to be popular to some here. ;)

[misanthrope]

87. Don't you think...

...the legal status of marijuana is chiefly what feeds its stigma, though?

A great number of people I've met(and a lot of cops I've known) will readily admit that they don't think it is any worse than alcohol.

[SouthernDem2004]

100. Actually I think alcohol is worse. eom

[misanthrope]

101. So then what percentage...

...of the public would you say might echo similar sentiments?

Enough to make a difference?

[SouthernDem2004]

102. I do not think so right now....

There is still a "hippie" stigma attached to it. Conservatives will not go for it until the image changes.

[misanthrope]

103. Well, then the next,...

...and most obvious, question is "What perpetuates that image?"

There's a hippie stigma attached to tie-dyes, Birkenstocks, Volkswagen vans and jam bands, but I don't see anyone outlawing them.

[camitche]

104. Well the police themselves might not make a whole lot on marijuana,

but I've been arrested twice for possession (so take my bias into account) and have found that a lot of money is made off of this. Court costs, lawyer fees, drug education classes, crime stoppers, more drug education classes, probation fees, etc. etc.

Putting a bunch of people like me on probation to pay for classes and all that jazz fuels an entire industry of criminal justice.

My brother's a cop. As far as he's concerned, he'd rather not arrest for pot, but that's his job.

[SouthernDem2004]

105. I agree with your brother.

[camitche]

106. Yeah, I have little against the cops on this one

I mean, they were dicks to me, I'm not going to lie, but then they deal with that shit every day, I'm sure it gets old.

My problem is with the legislatures. I think money is getting made on this, and I think that no congressman will risk their political career by pushing hard for legalization.

[SouthernDem2004]

107. Well...

I disagree with the money issue but agree 100% with no one willing to risk their political career. That I am afraid is the whole problem.

[camitche]

108. Yeah, that's a real problem

It's kind of hard to blame them though. Don't get me wrong, I do blame them, but I still see the inherent difficulties of politics.

[Swamp Rat]

109. George W. Bush smoked pot... put his ugly ass in jail for 55 years!

[anarchy1999]

24. And away we all go....................

n/t

[Dez]

25. WE need to end the insanity

Let the politicians know we're sick and tired of these draconian laws, laws so harsh, as if they're from another century.

[Heidi]

26. I absolutely agree.

Where to start?

[Dez]

27. Write your congressmen

and senators, to start. Volunteer for the U.S Marijuana Party http://usmjparty.com/

[MollyStark]

47. There are much more important problems in the world

than drug dealers delt a harsh sentence.

[K-W]

53. Its easy to think of reasons to not care about people, isn't it?

Oh, they are just DRUG users. Who cares if unconstitutional laws take away their freedom. Who cares if a war against behavior has created a black hole of tax money, fueled international crime and corruption, and hit the poorest and blackest communities the hardest.

I guess you can just take for granted the fact that nobody bothered to make your habits/addictions illegal.

[Dez]

55. Americans have demonized drug users for so long now

that they're considered less than, and since they smoke pot, it doesn't matter that they lose their constitutional rights.

[Lilith Velkor]

61. Yeah, keep believing that

I certainly hope the drug war doesn't take away any of your family, and you realize--too late--that this is important.

BTW, how come Iraqis are more valuable to you than Americans who can't afford good lawyers?

[MollyStark]

43. The sentence is incredibly unfair...however

How stoopid does a person have to be to sell pot to police while armed? Maybe he should have layed off the pot.
In the meantime you are right, rappists and murderers are getting less time and that is "criminal".

[Dez]

44. Oh no, it's Molly! *LoL*

So you 're still justifying the draconian laws?

[MollyStark]

45. Where did I justify the law?

[Dez]

46. So, you agree the laws are wrong

have you done anything yourself to voice your need to change? I mean, it's up to us to change the laws to keep the violent ones in prison.

[MollyStark]

48. No I have other priorities

Drug dealers aren't high on my list of people to feel sorry for.
100k dead Iraqi's come first.

[Dez]

49. You mean that it is ok

that violent prisoners are being released from prison early, in order to make room for pot smokers?? YOu can't write your congressmen over the injustice of that? Can you only focus on one issue??

[Dez]

52. Molly?

We all need to change these laws, to reduce violent crimes. violent criminals are allowed early release in order to punish pot smokers, don't you care?? I guess you've never been a victim of violent crime before.

[aeolian]

89. Uh...wow...

ever think that police occaisionally go undercover? They don't always wear their uniforms. Perhaps, and i know this is a difficult mental leap for the stoopidly unimaginative, the defendant didn't know he was selling to a cop.

[Gyre]

56. Assinine pot laws.

Will stay on the books as long as corporate whores run America.

Gyre

[Beware the Beast Man]

59. I'm no longer a potsmoker (makes me edgy), but 55 years is absurd.

Despite how you may feel about pot, the mandatory minimum for selling weed is disgraceful. 55 years for the proliferation of giggling and Twikie consumption? :wtf:

[all.of.me]

60. well, you know those pot peddlers get our kids addicted to

heroin and crack! murder is ok! iraq is proof of that! but hurting our kids with addictive drugs like marijuana is NOT ok!

[mzmolly]

67. Sounds like the fact that he had a concealed weapon was the kicker

He had been carrying a pistol in an ankle holster while conducting his business, and although he was not accused of brandishing the weapon or threatening anyone with it, he was charged with three counts of possession of a firearm while engaged in drug trafficking. The first count carries a mandatory minimum five-year sentence, while each additional count carries a 25-year mandatory minimum.

Either way, it's ridiculous.

[RegexReader]

98. Reading comprehension does help

Finally, someone that read the article prior to posting.

If he had blasted someone in a drug deal gone bad, the hue & cry would have been that it was the gun's fault that the poor drug dealer killed someone. There is nothing wrong with throwing the book at gun toting drug dealers that use violence and intimidation to destroy neighborhoods.


RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

[Dunedain]

68. So really

He wasn't given the sentence for pot, it was for having a firearm on his person during the transaction, right?
It would appear that the courts and the legislature "do" recognize this inequity and are working to change it.

"The Supreme Court's recent decision restoring broad sentencing discretion to federal judges is expected to make this sort of situation, in which a judge agonizes over a draconian punishment he feels legally compelled to impose, less common. But the ruling, which made federal sentencing guidelines advisory rather than mandatory, does not help Angelos."

"That's because his sentence was determined not by the guidelines but by statute. It is therefore perfectly constitutional under the Supreme Court's decision in U.S. v. Booker, which found that the guidelines violated the Sixth Amendment right to trial by jury by lengthening sentences on the basis of facts determined by judges."

"Prosecutors initially told Angelos that if he pleaded guilty to marijuana distribution and one count of carrying a gun, they would recommend a sentence of 15 years. After he turned down that deal, they filed a new indictment with a total of 20 charges, including five gun offenses that by themselves exposed him to a mandatory minimum sentence of 105 years."

http://www.hempevolution.org/media/reason/r050114.htm

http://www.november.org/Blakely/Democracy1-14-05.html

[DearAbby]

70. Disgusted Kick

[DearAbby]

71. Another one....this needs to be seen

[Catchawave]

72. A little research on decriminalization brings up

much proof that the pharmaceuticals make far too much money off our addictions for us to ever see it legalized.

[Dez]

74. It's a health issue, not a criminal one.

And why is it these sick addicts don't get treatment rather than jail time ?? No money. wow, richest nation can't deal with it, not any more than they can build schools rather than prisons.

[gollygee]

73. That is crazy

too bad Ken Lay didn't sell pot instead of stealing millions of dollars from people.

[Paranoid_Portlander]

75. The judge can't even add up the figures.

According to the link, the judge says that the 55 years plus his current age of 25, means that he will be released at age 70.

[Dez]

76. what's the bill to the taxpayers for this one case?

I wonder.

[porphyrian]

81. Big dealers support the drug war.

I'm not talking about people moving an ounce of weed here and there, I'm talking about major narcotics dealers. Why? It keeps their merchandise profitable. Removing prohibition and the drug war would cost them millions.

[Zhade]

83. Was it homegrown? CIA-supplied?

If he grew it and sold it, it was a victimless crime and this is a travesty of justice.

If, on the other hand, his supplier is, say, the mob or the CIA or some brutal jungle group, then I would have a problem with his selling (and I'm an mj fan).

Context is everything!

[bamacrat]

88. I recently wrote a short story for my creative writing class about this.

Not this case exactly but very similar. didn't hear about this one until now. good to see the war on drugs is working, non violent offenders (i.e. weed smokers, and sellers)out number violent offenders. shouldn't that fact alone make law makers rethink this stupid law.

[shanti]

90. kick

:kick: mj prohibition is BULLSHIT!

[Fovea]

110. I personally know a rapist

who got 14 years for rape, kidnapping, and terrorizing a woman.

He served 7.

55 years for pot?

Basta!b

[spanone]

111. .....and Ken Lay is free........