Honest questions about the Pope

[nonconformist]

The Pope's death has brought forth lots of discussion, but I'm left with some sincere questions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I disagreed with the Pope on many issues. I also agreed with him on many and thought he was a voice for peace.

But, in the end, I'm not Catholic.

As a woman, I will never want to be a part of the church hierarchy. Some do, and I support their struggle. However, when church doctrine dictates that women cannot be priests, isn't it indicative of the faith they've chosen to follow? I wish them well, but I can't really say much. Because I'm not Catholic, I don't really care.

I had plenty of pre-marital sex. Now I'm married and I use birth control. While I've fortunately never had an abortion, I'm thankful that currently I have the right to do so if I chose. The Catholic church doesn't agree, but I don't really care. I'm not Catholic. All I'm concerned with is that abortion remains legal.

My point is that on issues like women in the priesthood, contraception, abortion and gay rights the church is *never* going to take an official hardline stance to the contrary. I don't expect it to. Sure, it would be nice if they did. But since I'm not Catholic, I don't really care. I'm only concerned with the laws in the U.S. The Catholic church has little influence over US policies. The Protestant fundie church has too much influence. I'm more concerned with that, because some of the more insane encourage violence.

So, I guess my question is... if you're not Catholic, why do you care that they think you're a sinner? Because I don't. I appreciate a lot of what the Pope had to say on issues like the war, poverty, social justice, corporatism and religious reconciliation. I disagree with the basic church dogma though, but I don't really care because I'm not Catholic. In addition to my sinning ways I outlined above, the church also believes I'll burn in eternal hellfire because I don't believe in God and I'm not baptized. Oh well. Ask me if I care. But the real question is - why do YOU care? As long as their opinions don't dictate US policy, does it really matter? This "faith based" crap is coming from the Protestant far right, not the Catholics - because if they took Catholic ramblings to heart we would have never went to war and would stop shatting upon the poor. And getting all up in arms over church dogma and policies when you're not a member of the church plays right into the hands of the religious right - because they feel that their personal moral issues should be law. When you validate that - instead of writing it off as "church values" that don't apply to you - it gives them footing.

[merh]

1. Thank you very much!

I have nominated this thread and I thank you for saying what I have been trying to say for days now.

:applause: :applause:

[nonconformist]

3. Thanks

You would think it would be obvious, but apparently it's not.

[merh]

4. There are far too many that want understanding and compassion

but refuse to offer it. There are far too many that want to hate for the sake of hate.

Your writing simplifies what many have complicated out of hate and ignorance.

:toast:

[morgan2]

2. I agree

this is the very reason why I don't have much respect for most Catholics, especially in the US. Poll after poll shows they dont agree with the pope, yet they continue to follow an institution they don't even agree upon. How could one be part of a church if they don't agree with it? Its mind boggling.

[pretzel4gore]

6. how about the xians pretending every sunday?

they go to church like proper lil mice and they sing and shout praises to the lord...meanwhile they support an illegal war and swallow whole planks slivers and all, while literally howling that some desperate 3rd worlder whose land is under attack is a fanatic! The catholic church works on many levels; some catholics are dense and narrow minded, some aren't....if you know anything about christianity, you know it is almost impossible to really be a 'christian' (how can one control their temper, or resist temptation, or be honest...especially if it makes them an outcast?)
i'm not defending the catholic church, or religion....they can/will take care of themselves. But it's a mistake to think catholics have to 'agree' with the church....even popes often disagreed with the church!
There are plenty of hypocrites in the RC church....the institution has formed around the knowlege that selfishness, dishonesty and hypocrisy or phoniness pretty well are intrinsic to any group of people....the battle between good and bad goes on at every level of humanity, but mostly within each person....the busheviks like to make everything simple so they can carry on the devils work while shouting hosana (it's in the bible)....it's sometimes seems that 'fake' religious mannerisms are not only tolerated by the fundies, but are expected, even demanded, on pain of severe punishment! Whole societies have deluded themselves before (nazi germany was best example)...and the RC church at least knows that, so criticising them on that grounds isn't....kosher

[Lone Pawn]

13. I support this country, but not this President,

because I agree with the fundamental ideals this nation was founded upon, and I believe that there are certain core values that, if properly harnessed, could be a radical force for good, as it once was. At the same time, I recognize that it has been repeatedly harnessed by misguided men who, thinking that they were doing good, did great evil. And I disagree with many interpretations of these ideals that the leader of my country makes. But that doesn't change my feelings towards those ideals and this country.

Draw your own parallels.

[Anakin Skywalker]

5. I Don't Care. Same Goes for Evangelical Fundies.

The latter group is even more gleeful in telling non-Christians that they are going to Hell, etc. I suspect it is just their inadequacy speaking. They need something to feel superior about and religion happens to make a good club. I never get upset over religious dogma, but I don't think anyone should be foolish enough to ignore breaches of Church/State Separation.

[nonconformist]

7. And you bring up an excellent point.

Isn't that what we're really upset about? Violations of the separation of church/state and influence over US policy?

If so, sign me up.

But rather, it appears that many are personally offended by statements made by the church... when they're not even MEMBERS of the church. Confusing.

[merh]

8. As I have tried to point out to those who take offense to the

statments of the Catholic Church regarding homosexual sex, the Church has the same stance on premaritial sex and contraception because marriage is a sacrament and only married men and women are to engage in sex as an act of covenant love and for purposes of co-creating life.

(snip)
Accept the orientation, not the actions

As the Catholic bishops state it: "(W)e believe that it is only within a heterosexual marital relationship that genital sexual activity is morally acceptable. Only within marriage does sexual intercourse fully symbolize the Creator’s dual design, as an act of covenant love, with the potential of co-creating new human life. Therefore, homosexual genital activity is considered immoral" (Human Sexuality, #55). In somewhat less pastoral, more philosophical terms, Vatican documents use the phrase "intrinsically disordered" when referring to homosexual genital acts.

Whatever the term chosen, the implication would be the same: that sexual intercourse is designed by God both 1) as an act of lovemaking, of two-in-one-flesh union, and also 2) as the means to procreate new life, to co-create—as a couple and with God’s grace—new members of the human species. If these are the indelible meanings of sexual intimacy, written, as it were, into human nature and the nature of these intimate acts, then homosexual sex seems to be essentially deficient or incomplete.

Biologically speaking, homosexual sex acts are wholly non-procreative, since either the sperm or ovum element would be absent. While many homosexual couples embrace one another sexually and intimately as an expression of their love, it can be argued that such intimate genital embraces are fundamentally created to be heterosexual acts, reserved to those couples pledged to each other for life in the bond of marriage.

Therefore, the Church calls all homosexual persons, like their single heterosexual counterparts, to be chaste, that is, sexually appropriate for their uncommitted, unmarried state in life. Various Church documents acknowledge that this may be a difficult challenge, even a lifelong cross to carry. This is particularly true since heterosexual couples may anticipate marriage-to-come, while for gay or lesbian couples such a future sacramental union is not available.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0799.asp

As pointed out, the violations of the separation of church/state and influence of the Church(es) on US policy is disconcerting. What the fundies do not appreciate is, today it may be okay to be a Protestant and tomorrow it may be that the State Church is operated by Rev. Moon and everyone must convert or be imprisoned. That is the direction we are headed and that scares the hell out of me.

[beam me up scottie]

9. Really?

Do they call "premaritial sex and contraception" part of "a new ideology of evil"?

Because I must have missed that part.

And because I have tried to point out to those who think I shouldn't be worried because the catholic church has little influence over US policies:

Guess what? They have a LOT of influence over US policies.

I CARE because if I need a medical procedure and I go to a catholic hospital I don't want someone to decide what is best for me based on THEIR religious beliefs. The same goes for pharmacies.

I CARE because by MY tax dollars are paying to promote your religion (and not just yours) while it is actively trying to restrict my constitutional rights.

I CARE because the church doesn't just want to stop catholic women from having access to birth control and abortion, it wants to stop ME from having access to it as well.

I CARE because I have gay friends that are getting pushed farther away from having the same human rights that hetero people have and the church is more than indirectly responsible for that.

The catholic church has NEVER just wanted to rule catholics and if you don't believe that, you need to look a little closer.

[merh]

11. No, birth control and premaritial sex are the "old ideology of evil"

according to the teachings of the Catholic church. They are sins, sins are evil and those have been the teachings of the Church for centuries. What makes gay sex "the new ideology of evil" is the new movement, gay rights movement. Please read the post you responded to.

Don't go to a Catholic hospital if you are worried about the quality of your care. Hospitals must treat the patients, that is the law. If you want someone to be able to speak on your behalf, be sure you appoint them your agent in your living will or durable power of attorney. As is apparent from the Schiavo litigation, nothing is guaranteed relative to health care unless it is in writing.

It is not the catholic church that is trying to prevent you from having access to birth control, it is a collection of churches that are trying to impress upon their members that dispensing birth control is against the christian beliefs. If you want birth control and your doctor does not provide it, then find one that does. If you need your prescription filled and the pharmacist doesn't want to fill it, then find one that does. This pattern of behavior relative to birth control is a resurrection of old activities that have been outlawed by the courts. Should you want those court cases, I will gladly provide them to you.

If you want to be concerned and proactive then I would suggest that you campaign for politicians that do not blur the line that separates the church from the government.

The Catholic Church can only control Catholics and only wants to control its members, it does, however, hope to convert non-believers to its flock, just as other churches want to increase their membership.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Oh, so it's only gay sex and marriage that is

a part of ""a new ideology of evil"

Well, that's much better, I thought for a moment I would have to care about somebody else but myself.

Don't go to a catholic hospital? In case you haven't noticed, catholic hospitals are the only ones available for miles in some areas. They continue to buy more every year. I know of a du'er who had an ectopic pregnancy but catholic surgeons refused to do anything about it until her tube burst.

Guess what? She's not catholic.

Do you really believe that religion has no influence over this government? Have you been living here long?

Can you point out the irony in this sentence?

"The Catholic Church can only control Catholics and only wants to control its members, it does, however, hope to convert non-believers to its flock, just as other churches want to increase their membership."

[nonconformist]

17. Time would be better spent keeping church/state separate

I wholeheartedly agree there.

But accepting that they dictate policy and trying to change the church... good luck with that. It plays right into their hands. It validates their dogma as something that is worthy of being law.

[beam me up scottie]

20. We're already losing that battle.

I don't want to change the church, I want it to stay the hell out of our bedrooms.
Why do you think gay marriage is not legal? Give me ONE single valid reason that gay marriage should be outlawed that is not religious in nature or origin.

[nonconformist]

24. Oh, I agree with you there

100%.

But as non-church members, I don't think we can demand that they change their policies when in reality we just don't want them making OUR policies. We need to work very hard in keeping church/state separate... and you're right, we're not doing well. But I think we're becoming unfocused. Besides, I think it would go far in promoting religious tolerance if we could just accept they're going to believe in what they believe in - we just don't want it projected out on all of us.

[Tinoire]

35. If we don't like Catholic beliefs - time to stay out of their hospitals

It's really that damn simple. If, on the other hand, people have a problem with them being the only hospitals for miles around - that should be taken up with the government and the government should be forced to build more hospitals. Nothing stops either the Republican or the Democratic party from building hospitals on every other block if they want to.

Neither party cares or WANTS to. It's really that damn simple.

The Church is not in this for you or for me. They're in it to be in a position to provide services according to their ethics/orals/beliefs and to be there for the indigent poor.

I find this argument is a bit weak, like complaining that the only store for miles around is Muslim-owned and damn, they don't carry pork. Nothing, absolutely nothing prevents liberals from building hospitals on every block and absolutely nothing prevents electing government officials who will address & act upon the sorry state of health care in this country.

[Dorian Gray]

40. Really?

Because Ectopic Pregnancies are generally the only time when abortion procedures are allowed within the Catholic Church. (When the life of the mother is endangered and the child will not live.) All Catholic Hospitals I know of provide abortions for ectopic pregnancies. It's a necessary medical procedure, and without the measure, the mother WILL die.

That's horrible if a hospital refused treatment to a fellow DUer. She should complain to the medical board. The state will have a government branch that deals with medical malpractice, which that is a case of. (I know that because my friend, a lawyer, works for an agency in CT that deals with Medical Malpractice issues, and he has said that every state has their own.)

[beam me up scottie]

29. Merh, I apologize if you think

I'm trying to marginalize your grief or admiration, I'm not.
I get really upset when I think about all the harm that has come from not keeping religion separate from state.
It's not just the catholic church, it's the fundies, I rant about them just as much, ask anyone.
I think you and I both agree about the separation and I just wanted you to see it from another point of view.
I don't want to drive you away from du when you are grieving, I'll stop. I won't bother you again because it wouldn't be fair.
Please accept my apology and my condolences.

[merh]

32. I do not think you are trying to marginalize my grief or my

admiration and I thank you for being concerned that you might have offended me. You have not, but thank you for asking. We do agree that the separation of church and state is vital and I appreciate your efforts in trying to help me see things from a different perspective. Thank you for the lessons and for the discourse. It was not that unpleasant, I think we both took turns at :banghead:.

I appreciate your condolences and your deep passion. :hi:

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

10. So I have to be a member of a church

to complain about infringement of my constitutional rights?

[nonconformist]

12. Does rhetoric infringe upon your constitutional rights?

If the Pope says we're evil, how does that infringe upon our rights?

It can, if it influences US policy. Fundamental protestant fringe groups have some influence and incite violence. That's definitely a concern.

But it is what it is - rhetoric. Rhetoric that people get all huffy about - when they're not members of the church because they disagree with it! So what, the church says gays are evil. They also say you'll go to hell if you don't accept the lord Jesus as your personal savior. And this affects those of us that don't believe in their dogma... how? ONLY if it's used in policy making OR used to incite violence. Otherwise, it's just rhetoric.

[jonnyblitz]

14. his followers who VOTE listen to him!

and THAT could effect us! I can't believe the lengths people will go to excuse this shit. damn!!

[nonconformist]

15. Sooo....

Let me get this straight.

Non-church members have the right to demand change in church policies.

But churches do NOT have the right to demand change in US policies.

Gotcha.

Agree that US policy should not be dictated by churches. As a non-church member, I give a rat's ass what their polices ARE.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Do you care that they affect others or is it

just yourself that you're not worried about?

I could give a "rat's ass" about anyone's deities either, it's when I have to PAY for promoting their religion with my tax dollars that I start to give a "rat's ass".

[nonconformist]

21. I sure don't want it dictating US policy, that's for sure

I don't want it to affect me whatsoever.

Church members chose to be members of their churches. It's not like a nation, where you don't have a choice where you're born or where you live. They're free to leave the church or try to reform it if they wish.

[beam me up scottie]

23. When I got a neanderthal in the oval office

and a senate and congress full of men who want to deny me my constitutional right to control my womb, that's hardly RHETORIC.

It's not just the catholic church, it's the fundies as well. Neither will budge an inch when it comes to women's rights, so the government is giving in.

As soon as they stop telling their followers to deny me my rights, I'll shut up about them.

[nonconformist]

25. That's what I'm concerned about too

Seperation of church and state.

[beam me up scottie]

28. I apologize if I jumped on your post.

I remember how hard women had to fight for our rights and I panic when I think that we could very easily lose them in the next few years.
I'm not even gay but I feel the same way about their rights, we cannot let the churches and the government turn us against each other.
So many christians ARE working for the same thing, it's just easy to forget with the constant barrage from the msm.

[kikiek]

19. He completely lost me when he told the people in Africa that condoms

were sinful to use, and didn't prevent aids either. His ignorance of women's rights was bad enough. But I can't even begin to try to wrap my mind around the thought that babies should be born even if they will starve to death or die of AIDS or orphaned from it. Not to mention the other countries (including our own) where they can't feed the kids they have, but he told em to keep having more. To call sex within a marriage sinful if it isn't done to procreate is just plain assinine. Heaven will have very few people according to that pope.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Thank you.

I'm sorry if catholics think I'm disrespecting their grief, I would never do that but I get a bit upset when I see the news media trying to gloss over human rights violations.

[kikiek]

31. Me too. I get angry.

[beam me up scottie]

33. I can't remember ever being this scared

for us before.
It's like I'm watching everything through a camera lens and I'm just waiting for something to happen. Some world event that will allow * and his cabal to finally take over. It seems like all these distractions are building up to something.

[kikiek]

39. Isn't it something. I am amazed at all the people totally oblivious to

what is going on. Of course coverage of Schaivo and the Pope helped with that. I am really worried about the dollar collapsing.

[noamnety]

22. You all ought to care what they are preaching

They INVENTED the moral majority. Not the evangelical protestants, the catholics - who named the group and selected Jerry Falwell to be a front man for it.

Read your history. And follow the money!

Seriously, google up how much money the catholic church has, how it compares to the amount of money our largest corporations have, and what they invest it in (Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, Bethlehem Steel, General Electric, International Business Machines, T.W.A., etc.) They are possibly the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence.

[nonconformist]

27. I can care all I want, but it isn't going to change their minds

I care when it affects policy. That should be our focus, not demanding that the church change it's views. Because frankly, that's never gonna happen.

[MollyStark]

41. I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

I just don't believe in the one in Rome.
It is a lie to believe that Catholics have no influence over the church they belong to. If there was a mass exodus from the RCC to the Episcopal church (my church to be completely honest), Rome would change it's ways in a heart beat.

[kikiek]

30. I agree. There wasn't any other reason that they had to

endorse Bush. The abortion debate was just a sideshow to fire up their followers. They wanted the guy in who was willing to give billions of dollars in tax payers money to the churches. Abortion has been around for 30 years. All of a sudden it's the main issue for the church. Other interests were obvious. I believe the shooter of the pope who is now saying there were people in the Vatican who hired him to kill the pope. That story made it for 1 newscast then disappeared. He wouldn't have been the 1st pope killed by the Catholic church.

[merh]

34. I am not aware of this

"Not the evangelical protestants, the catholics" could you please provide me with sources or links? That is a very interesting concept.
Thank you.

[noamnety]

36. Catholics started the moral majority

The idea was formalized at their 1975 annual meeting of the American Catholic Bishops, in their Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities.

Anyone who thinks the pro-life agenda "suddenly" appeared in the last couple years is mistaken. They've been working specifically on this for the last 30 years, building the network so they have enough control of the government to make it happen.

In their own words (1975, 4 years before the founding of the Moral Majority):

(section III: III. Legislative/Public Policy Effort)

"28. Accomplishment of this aspect of this Pastoral Plan will undoubtedly require well-planned and coordinated political action by citizens at the national, state, and local levels. This activity is not simply the responsibility of Catholics, nor should it be limited to Catholic groups or agencies. It calls for widespread cooperation and collaboration. As citizens of this democracy, we encourage the appropriate political action to achieve these legislative goals. As leaders of a religious institution in this society, we see a moral imperative for such political activity."

(Objectives of the Congressional District Pro-life Group)

"52. To elect members of their own group or active sympathizers to specific posts in all local party organizations."

http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/75-11-20pastoralplanforprolifeactivitiesnccb.htm

You should also read this article: http://www.population-security.org/STLouis99.html

"In 1980, Federal Judge John Dooling, ruled on McRae v. HEW, a challenge to the Hyde Amendment, which prevented Medicaid payment for abortion. The Judge had spent a year studying the anti-abortion movement in great detail, including the bishops' Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities. His findings showed that the anti-abortion movement was essentially Roman Catholic with a little non-Catholic window dressing. (21) The purpose of the amendment, says Dooling bluntly, was quite simply to circumvent the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling and prevent as many abortions as possible. The Hyde Amendment is one of the Pastoral Plan's most important successes.

Dooling, a practicing Catholic, makes short work of the anti-abortionists' pretensions to be a spontaneous grass-roots movement that owes its political victories to sheer moral appeal. He confirms that the right-to-life's main source of energy, organization and direction has been the Catholic Church, and he describes in detail how the movement works to achieve its goals.

What is most significant in Judge Dooling's 328-page ruling is his finding that the anti-abortion movement's main source of energy, organization, and direction has been the Catholic Church. The Protestant face carefully put on the movement, first by the Moral Majority and then by the Christian Coalition, was called for in the Pastoral Plan. Richard A. Viguerie, a Catholic, is the man most responsible for the development and success of the New Right. He was also involved in the original discussions that led to the creation of the Moral Majority and, as its fundraiser, can be credited with its financial success. Paul Weyrich, a Catholic, claims credit for originating the idea for the group and the name itself. In their search for an attractive front man for the organization, they chose Jerry Falwell."

It's nice to say their views don't affect you, because we have separation of church and state. But don't forget they haven't agreed to that separation, and - as the organization with probably the most clout and resources in the world - they are actively working to undermine it.

In a lot of ways it's like the rest of the world saying "we don't care who America elects as president, we aren't Americans so it doesn't affect us." You see the problem with that?

[Bridget Burke]

37. The controversial doctrines are a good excuse....

Many in the US were raised to hate Catholics. The Puritans hated all Popery. The Church uses an ancient language (not so much nowadays), sponsors great art & has a touch of exoticism that offends some. And Catholicism was originally the religion of immigrants--you know, those people who bred like rabbits & didn't speak proper English.

I was raised Catholic but am not currently religious. I disagree with many Church doctrines, but they do not affect me personally. I do hope the Church can change so the good it's done can continue.

But non-Catholics railing against the policies that don't affect them, either, are often showing their upbringing rather than realizations reached as adults. They KNOW Catholicism is evil, they just need to find a hipper reason to speak out.

[PA Democrat]

38. I was raised a Catholic, but that said, I will still rail against policies

that do not affect me personally, not because some anti-Catholic bigotry, but rather because I truly care about the devastating effects that some of the church's policies have had on other people.

Most egregious is the Catholic church's stance on the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. While many Catholics in the US and in Europe pick and choose which of the church's policies that they will follow, that is not true in some other parts of the world, like Africa for example. Furthermore, in parts of Africa, a Catholic-run health clinic may be the only health care facility available to people.

I would be ignoring my own personal beliefs regarding respect for human life if I did not speak out against those policies.

[DarbyUSMC]

42. While much TV has 24 hour coverage on the pope, repeating over and over

the same things, I haven't heard much about his stand on condoms in Aids ravaged countries or contraception in overpopulated countries where thousands of kids die of starvation every month. I can't figure out all of this praise for the good he has done. He seemed like a nice enough guy but what did he do for his followers that was so exceptional? It does rub me the wrong way to watch them because it seems like they are worshipping him instead of the Lord he is supposed to represent. Many of the Catholic people in the poor countries are very superstitious and don't have minds of their own. Here, people can pick and choose which of the edicts to obey without thinking they will go to hell if they choose to use birth control. I grew up in a town that was 95 percent Catholic and back in the 50's people were much more obedient to what the pope decreed (different pope then, but same power.) My aunt and uncle's marriage broke up over her refusal to go against the pope about birth control. She had two children but had lost three. Doc told her no more trying or she would die. She thought her only alternative was to stop having a sex life. Sure fire way to wreck a marriage.

Just some thoughts and only my opinion of course. Sympathy to all those who are really feeling a loss over the man's passing.