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What is your opinion of the IRA, UUP, UFF, and Northern Ireland?

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pres2032 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 05:47 PM
Original message
Poll question: What is your opinion of the IRA, UUP, UFF, and Northern Ireland?
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 06:41 PM by pres2032
I'm really interested in knowing. I just came back from a week long trip to Belfast 2 weeks ago for a class to trip to experience the conflict up close and personal and wow, it was amazing. Something that struck me was how life seems to be returning to normal, but there's still that underlying tension everywhere. I've also read that Americans seem to be really mixed about the whole situation. So i'd be really interested in hearing what all of you think. I have a poll, but I would really like you to respond. I'll insert my own opinions once we get a real discussion going on here.

For those unfamiliar with who's who, here's a guide:

Catholic
IRA - Irish Republican Army
Sinn Fein - political arm of IRA
Gerry Adams - Leader of IRA

Protestants
DUP - Democratic Unionist Party
UUP - Ulster Unionist Party
UFF - Ulster Freedom Fighters
Ian Pasley - leader of DUP
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think Northern Ireland should become its own nation
Then people who know nothing about it but still maintain strong opinions concerning the troubles can all migrate there and save me a lot of headaches.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. You need two polls for this
One on the groups, and a separate one on the future of Ireland.

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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. sorta keep it stuck to UK, Rump IRA and Paisleyites locked in a small
room together
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LdyGuique Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. I chose "everyone needs to sit down and work out a
peaceful solution." The island of Ireland is too small to keep fighting battles started hundreds of years ago. Protestantism and Catholicism should not be the be-all and end-all of social discourse, economic wellbeing, or politics.

The Irish need to find their common ground and work towards a solution that allows for differences and promotes commonality.

Do I think this is possible? Not really. I'm rapidly reaching the point where I'm not very sure about anything to do with being human that doesn't succumb to venality, selfishness, and self-centeredness.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Timely and interesting post.
Blood from my family tree runs through all points on the British Isles.

But Ireland lays claim to the best poetry.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. On a point of information
Edited on Thu Apr-14-05 06:43 PM by muriel_volestrangler
Paisley is the leader of the DUP - Democratic Unionist Party. The UUP is led by David Trimble - more moderate than the DUP (they managed to form an administration which included a couple of Sin Fein members for a bit, before it broke up in acrimony), but has been losing voting share to the DUP recently.

And for that matter, many people will dispute that Adams is the leader of the IRA. A few will dispute that Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Bush is the Problem again!!!
For 829 year, since the First Invasion of Ireland from Saxon Soil, led by a blaggard named StrongBow (and recently discovered to be a direct ancestor of George Bush, Junior) the indigenous Irish people have fought the hordes who have invaded.

Then, in an amazing event occurred in 1998. An event that Irish and Scots-Irish (and I descend from both) toasted in every pub around the world, and were dubbed "the Easter Accords". It was brokered by Bill Clinton's man George Mitchell between all of the Northern Irish parties and with the inestimable help of (GULP!)Tony Blair.

Fully implemented, it would have ended the violence in N.I. Sinn Fein, convinced their military counterparts, the Provos (Provional Wing of the IRA) that it was desirable to "decommission" their weaponry. Putting them "beyond use", an exercise which was approved of after, having taken a jaundiced view of the words, the Highest Military authority of Canada approved of the movement and guaranteed its approach and success.

That led to a new government with power split between the indigenous Irish and the "Planters", or Ulstermen/Orangemen and the restoration of a, more or less civil government in Northern Ireland.

This was seen as workable for both sides as the Nationalists (those for Union with the Twenty Six counties in the Republic of Eire to the South) saw a majority vote shaping up in twenty or twenty five years as the outcome anyway, and also by the Unionists, who had no desire to see the tables turned on them and to be forced to suffer the Civil Rights abuses and bigotry which had been the lot of the Nationalist Northern Irish for the past century and more.

And this measure would finally bring to an end the "legal problems" of the control of the northern six counties which have been up in the air for over fifty years.

The Constitution of the Republic of Eire claims as its territory all thirty two counties on the Island of Eire (one reason Sinn Fein carries on its political battles and the Provos carry on theirs, nonpolitically... though it is worth noting that the IRA was largely moribund until the British Army shot down unarmed Irish Civil Rights marchers on Bloody Sunday, in 1968).

The Republic of Ireland, after the "Rising of 1916" and the following Civil War, was at first a Dominion of England from 1922 until 1932.

From that point, Fianna Fail came to power under Eamonn de Valera, a leader of 1916, refused fealty to Britain and carried on an "economic war" until the declaration of the Irish Free State in 1938. That status continued until 1949 (through WWII, Ireland was a neutral country, much to the distress of Britain), when it declared itself the Republic of Ireland.

In 1955 Eire, and its Constitution, was accepted by the UN as equal at the table... and Britain was one of the five permanent members of the Security Council accepting Eire. Yet Eire has never tried to occupy the land which is its own, the northern six counties, under its Constitution.

So despite the 50 years or so of uncertainty, and civil rights abuse, Bill Clinton was able to put together a solution... and then...

In November, 2000, the rats slipped into the White House. Tony Blair and George Junior look deep into each others eyes and Junior whispers the magic question to Tony Blair... "Would you like to hear about Diebold??".

And, after hearing the most amazing new twist on Democracy ever conceived, and after proving his own fealty to Junior by going to a fictitious war for fictitious reasons, Tony now sees that the Nationalists will *never* be in a majority, as long as the Stalinistas are still counting the votes. "Well, they can just go bugger themselves", thinks Tony.

And so, just a couple of month or so ago, George Bush dispatches an envoy to Northern Ireland (along with a plane load of Voting Machines Vendors, if memory serves) and,

"US Special Envoy to Northern Ireland, Mitchell Reiss, said it was "time for the IRA to go out of business".

Mr Reiss added: "It's time for Sinn Fein to be able to say explicitly, without ambiguity, without ambivalence, that criminality will not be tolerated."

My thoughts about this??

It's a bloody goddamned shame that the IRA's Unionists counterparts, the U.D.A., U.D.P., and the U. F. F. are not acknowledged as being no better or worse than the IRA by both Britain and the US.

But worse even than that is that the greatest terrorist organization in Northern Ireland, Britain's MI6, is not lumped in with the murderous (and often complicitly deluded lot) that both Britain and the US have dispatched to Iraq. To kill, loot, maim for oil and American's Radical Religious Zealots in the good ole US of A.

This is a blood sport, so let's do a head(less) count.

Britain and the US of A lose 1800+ low paid "expendables" (Henry Kissinger's words, not mine versus 100,000 plus Iraqis and soil poisoned for hundreds of centuries by Depleted Uranium, in two years.

Northern Ireland with a total of less than 4000 dead on both sides in 35 years??

What is George II doing looking for specks in the Irish eyes?? It is the frickin' Tongass National Forest he has in his own!!
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BamaGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. I voted
Northern Ireland needs to be a part of the Republic. My husband is Irish and grew up on that border though, so I am probably a little biased lol.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. It should become part of the ROI.
Ireland was always one nation, and no bastard remnant of the British Empire can be allowed to defeat that fact.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Other - Ian Paisley is a psychotic hatemonger.
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The Whiskey Priest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. Tiocfaidh ár lá
Armoured cars and tanks and guns
Came to take away our sons
But every man must stand behind
The men behind the wire

Through the little streets of Belfast
In the dark of early morn
British soldiers came marauding
Wrecking little homes with scorn

Heedless of the crying children
Cragging fathers from their beds
Beating sons while helpless mothers
Watched the blood poor from their heads

Not for them a judge and jury
Nor indeed a trial at all
But being Irish means you´re guilty
So we´re guilty one and all

Round the world the truth will echo
Cromwell´s men are here again
England´s name again is sullied
In the eyes of honest men.

Proud we march behind our banner
Firm we´ll stand behind our men
We will have them free to help us
Build a nation once again

On the people step together
Proudly firmly on their way
Never fear never falter
Till the boys are home to stay
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just a note about Ian Paisley and the DUP.
You can put this little organization right up there with our American versions, the Aryan Nation, the Minutemen and any other bigoted group of racists.

Just because the Irish Catholics look like the Scot/Irish Protestants doesn't make them any less hated by the Protestants than those Minutemen hate those Mexicans who are crossing the border. Although, his isn't about skin color but one nation conquering another and imposing a colonial rule on them, it is still very much about ethnic strife.

How do I know? I met two Catholic girls, sisters, from Ulster back in the early 1970's. One of them has been a lifelong friend. They gave some really good insight into the problems and it really boils down to bigotry. It is complex but once you start seeing the bigotry, it becomes pretty plain what needs to be done.
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