Why I won't let up on America. (Note...bitter sarcasm involved)

[JohnnyCougar]

Look what happens when I use certain rhetoric that is accepted on here, but names are changed. It's pathetic.

There are many reasons I won't let up on America in regard to their crusade against Iraq but one of the best is Sgt. Curtis Greene. Curtis would be 25 right now. Had he followed his goals he would be a proud father now. Instead, he is rotting in the ground. He is forever the terrified 25 year old soldier who sought to protect his country and provide for his family.

Curtis was a proud father of a 6 year old son and 19 month old daughter in America, the most prestigious country in the world. By the time he started serving in the military there he knew he was doing his job to put food on his family's table. Sadly the military lived up to his fears. On December 6, 2004, Curtis hung himself in his barracks. Nobody could understand what it was like to be a soldier.

In the aftermath, the media refused to discuss his being a soldier simply doing his job. The refused the request of the parents who feared another Curtis. In life, Curtis knew his country didn't accept him. In death, they refused to acknowledge him, nor its roll in his death.

I didn't know Curtis, but many of our friends are Curtis. Many people we know made the same fateful decision that he did. They decided that they were better off dead, than a soldier. Some of them decided our families deserved better. They only didn't follow through due to not being able to keep their secret in death.

America isn't entirely responsible for Curtis feeling the way he did. They may not even been mostly responsible, but they are some. And for that alone, I won't forget.

Facts upon which this account is based

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/13/Hernando/_Over_my_dead_body_.shtml

Ego based soldier hating is just as bad as non non-ego based soldier hating. Kids who internalize and kill themselves based on it are just as dead. People who are ignored for being soldiers are no less dead if their attackers learned to hate soldiers in a political internet forum instead of at a neo NAZI rally. Soldiers' rights laws which get killed in legislatures are no less dead if they are killed by the arrogant legislators instead of the carefree populace. The leadership of, and bureaucracy of America considers soldiers intrinsically disordered, I consider them heartless.

Yes, this post is based on another thread bashing the Catholic Church. Just like we blame the entire Church for a gay committing suicide, we should blame the entire country of America for a soldier committing suicide. Yes...that is sound logic. It certainly is.

[NeoConsSuck]

1. Here, I'll help you out a little..

Pope John Paul II was 100% against the Iraq invasion. And that was the official stance of the Catholic church. The freepers and christian conservatives were bashing Catholics in the lead-up to the illegal occupation. I know, I spent time at freerepublic.com trying to grasp as to what makes these slugs think.

Americans were 55-60% pro invasion. If anyone has Iraqi blood on their hands, it is certainly not catholics, but americans of other religions.

[MollyStark]

3. Nice try, but if 50 to 60 percent are pro invasion

that includes millions of Catholics. The churches official stance was anti-war. That was not where the church has been focusing though. If it were 50 or 60 percent of americans would not be pro-invasion.

[adwon]

2. Question

Since Papa Joe Kennedy was an ardent admirer of Hitler and co., does this mean that we have to treat all his children as being cut from exactly the same cloth? Just curious.

[MollyStark]

4. The entire country is responsible for the suicide of a soldier

If that soldier killed himself over the ugliness of war.

[emanymton]

5. Responsibilty Shared Is Resposibilty Deminished.

[dsc]

6. I didn't read the whole account

I will later if this thread is still around, but one huge difference that I note is that unlike the case I sighted the military actually tried to help both this man and others in his position. That is quite different than the case I sight.

[dsc]

7. I would also like one example of this

The leadership of, and bureaucracy of America considers soldiers intrinsically disordered, I consider them heartless.


I want one citation from outside the Vietnam era of just one Federal elected offical saying anything remotely like that. My citation was the current Pope which would be the equivalent of the President. I am merely asking for a Congressman or Senator out of the hundreds who have served in that capacity since 1975 (the end of Vietnam).

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. So, Bush was calling being a soldier "an intrinsic moral evil"?

No, of course he wasn't - but that's what the new leader of the Catholic church called active homosexuality. Maybe you should try a new analogy.

By the way, I do blame the USA for the situation in Iraq - after the chance to get rid of Bush, there is a collective responsibility. And remember that it's incredibly simple to give up being a Catholic - but far harder to give up being an American.

[lesab]

9. Wait a minute

Some of us are trying to change the corruption of BOTH the church and this nation. When things go wrong, if everyone jumps ship, then nothing changes. Those of us who realize there is something wrong are responsible for fighting for change. I'm not leaving this country or my church but I know that some people in power in both are wrong and need to realize that.

[JohnnyCougar]

10. That's exactly my point.

Instead of saying the whole organization is for shit, work to change it. And realize that parts of both America and the Catholic church are against what their leadership decides. Bush doesn't speak for half of Americans, the Pope (or whatever conservative cardinals and bishops there are) don't speak for half of Catholics. It't that simple. The organization's leader isn't the only thing that defines the organization.

[dsc]

11. I am still waiting for one, just one, example of a federal official

calling servicemen and servicewomen intrinsicly disordered. Am I ever going to get one?

[JohnnyCougar]

12. If they did, would you blame it on that person?

Or would you not let up on the entire government of America?

I'm not trying to be insensitive to your cause here. I'm just trying to point out that these people don't speak for the population of the church. Nor would one dumbass in our government speak for our entire government.

[dsc]

13. If it were the President, and after he said it he got reelected,

then I might well blame the country. Which, incidently, is the exact, precise senario, in my thread. Now, again, am I or am I not going to get that quote? You claim, in this thread, that the leaders and beauracracy of this country considers soldiers to be intrinsically disordered. I am asking if you have even one quote from the last 30 years to back that statement up.

[JohnnyCougar]

14. You're missing the point and steering the argument off course.

Which may be what you intend.

The point is, even though certain people in the American heirarchy send soldeirs off to die with no regard for their mental health, we don't blame America. We blame Bush and his cronies.

Even though certain people in the Catholic heirarchy show obtuse and bigoted views, we don't blame the Catholic Church. We blame the people holding those views.

You are blaming the Catholic Church for that gay man's tragic death. I am (mockingly) blaming America for the death of that soldier.

Should an Iraqi balme America for the destruction of their country, or should they blame Bush and the rest of his cronies that don't speak for the beliefs of Americans like us who have been trying to stop the war from day one?

[dsc]

16. If your point was that

then actually the majority of this country is to blame. After all, after Bush did this he won reelection. But I thought you were claiming that a person could truthfully post what you did and still be wrong to blame America, but since that isn't your point, that it is OK to lie and compare that lie to a truthful post then that is indeed a different story.

[Deja Q]

15. The church sets forward its agenda and set of rules... I've seen MANY

people in emotional angst because of them. He has every right to post and you have every right to respond - in THAT post's thread.

I also saw the original post.