Is anyone watching Meet the Press? Re: Pope

[TheFarseer]

They were discussing how pope John the 23rd had modernized the church in the 60's and had made the church about mercy and inclusiveness and JP II and Pope Rat were making it about condemning people and divisiveness. JP II might one day be credited with starting the destruction of the church. Just think without the reforms on Vatican II in 1962, we would still be having masses in all Latin. I can't imagine going to church and it not being in English. Resisting modernizing and condemning people who are trying to reach out to Christ because they do not agree with some petty stance of the church is insanity. You never saw Jesus condemn anyone and certainly not for their stance on euthanasia! Why are we doing that now? This will marginalize if not destroy the church. They've got to realize this.

[leftchick]

1. I thought MTP was a plotical show

whay are they still going on about the Pope? Why not have John Bolton on to defend himself? Now that would be fun!

[hippiechick]

4. Face The Nation is 'Boltoning' today ...

:hi:

I think this is a good discussion - it is political, because of the clout the Vatican holds over the belief systems (which translate into voting preferences) for so many Americans.

And if Ratboy regresses the church, as a whole, backwards it's only
going to help one party - the GOP - and it's fundamentalist, Dark Ages, all-fear-all-the-time, agenda.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. But it also encourages *defections*. There is no way to know ...

how that aspect will play out. But stands to reason that a smaller RC church in US and Europe is a less politically potent RC church.

[grasswire]

14. your elephant pic...

...is so very dear. I smile everytime I see it.

[leftchick]

18. thanks!

I love it too! Please don't forget to sign the petition at the link! ;)

peace,
lc

[mmonk]

2. Nope

No more pope-a-thons for me.

[mopaul]

3. a 2,000 yr. old institution, in the 21st century, bound to be problems

[ooglymoogly]

5. i never watch mtp

trying to keep my gag reflexes in check

[Wizard777]

7. Right now my concern is

that he will be using "Tough Love." It's watered down Maleus Malificarum. I love you more than you love yourself. So I must destroy you.

[nuxvomica]

8. Most horrendous, and telling, comment was from Fr. Fessio

He said that women can't be ordained because Christ is the "bridegroom" of the church, which is a male role. What an incredibly stupid thing to say, confusing as it does the metaphor with the truth or in scholasticist terms, the accident with the substance. This is indicative of those who have stopped searching for the truth to instead sanctify the imagery itself so that it can be used as a cudgel.
That said, I enjoyed what Cahill and Sister Mary had to say but wish the whole issue of believing in metaphors was addressed. That would've been a more substantive discussion.

[TheFarseer]

9. I enjoyed listening to the sister also

God works in mysterious ways. Is that why we have him pinned down on every issue? I refuse to believe that the pope knows how Jesus would respond to every issue of our modern world.

[nuxvomica]

10. Meacham alluded to that briefly

He quoted my favorite scriptural passage, Paul's letter to the Corinthians 1:13, which says "we see now through a glass darkly." I take that whole passage as Paul's "Christianity for Dummies" and it would have been a good starting point to a discussion of the "certainty" issue.

[cruadin]

12. I watched that round table also, and I thought Sister Mary had...

some pretty insightful comments on the nature of revealed truth. The most pertinent observation being (I'm paraphrasing) that truth, like everything else, evolves as it is passed from generation to generation.

[nuxvomica]

13. Yes. She also said that truth is something we cannot own

That, in fact, God is the truth so we can't claim to possess it but rather struggle toward becoming part of it. I'm paraphrasing also but I think that's the gist. How scary those subtle philosophical comments must've sounded to folks like Bottum and Fessio.

edit: Sister Mary is Sister Mary Aquin O'Neill, RSM, of Mount Saint Agnes Theological Center for Women, in case anyone was wondering.

[Donailin]

11. Wrong: "You never saw Jesus condemn anyone"

Christ condemned the lawmakers and religious leaders of his time and were he to return today, he would direct his condemnations at the lawmakers and religious leaders who claim his name:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness." (Matthew 23:27–28)



"Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: `These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.'" (Matthew 15:6–8)

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." (Matthew 15,9)



"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness." (Matthew 23:23)



"I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Matthew 21:31)



"You Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness." (Luke 11:39)

"But I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts." (John 5:42)

"Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy." (Luke 12:1)

"Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers." (Luke 20:46–47)



"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. (Luke 16:13–14)



"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely. (Luke 11:52–53)



"And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them." (Luke 11:46)



"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Matthew 23:15)



"A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2)

[Mz Pip]

15. That last one

is telling. Isuspect some of our own homegrown fundie terrorist believe they are offering a service to God by killing gays, doctors, etc. That's what happens when someone takes a passage out of context which the self righteous fundies do all the time.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[TheFarseer]

16. I considered saying except for the pharasies

and merchants in the temple but I tend to ramble sometimes with nuance and didn't want this to be one of those times. There's no doubt in my mind, the people who are condemned by religious leaders like pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-birth control, pro-euthenasia would be forgiven and embraced by Christ and the people that use his name for their evil and greed would be condemned.

[Donailin]

17. The pageantry of the Papal Mass

today was . . . sickening. The ring on a velvet pillow, the white robes and gold tassles, the kissing of the ring on bended knee. It reminds me of this: "Whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many"

I would just love to know what it was like when these clerics convinced themselves that Christ would approve of the traditions that he condemns in scripture?