I am Catholic, but sadly, this article in the Advocate changed me forever

[BigBearJohn]

Signorile and Ratzinger

http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail.asp?id=15799

Sirius OutQ radio host Michelangelo Signorile’s 1993 classic Queer in America includes a telling anecdote about Pope Benedict XVI, then known as Cardinal Ratzinger, the pope’s point man on crushing gay rights.

By Michelangelo Signorile

An Advocate.com exclusive posted, April 20, 2005




Signorile.com


Queer in America



The event described here occurred on January 27, 1988. I will forever be grateful to the new pope for being so integral to my development.—M.S.

One protest that was announced was an upcoming zap of Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, the German prelate who was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. He had written a paper for the Vatican in which he said that homosexuality was “intrinsically evil” and a “moral evil.” Cardinal Ratzinger had said the church had to fight the homosexual and fight against legislation that “condoned” homosexuality.

[yurbud]

1. it's hypocritical unless he starts by cleaning out the gay priests

which they will never do

[Rowdyboy]

2. They don't need to get rid of the gay priests

Just the pedophiles. Gay does not equal pedophile.

[Misunderestimator]

3. Thank you.

Why does this have to be repeated over and over? :shrug:

[merbex]

7. I wish they would eliminate the celibacy requirement

[peacebird]

11. but if homosexuality is "evil" and must be banned then it follows

that gay priests must be "evil" and therefore defrocked to save the church. Does NOT say that gay priests are the pedo-creeps... Just that gay is evil and must be abolished.

Total judgemental bull of course, and if the church were forced to get rid of gay priests then it would likely cease to exist because a fair number of priests are gay....

wait! Come to think of it, now that could be a GOOD thing...!
:evilgrin:

[Dorian Gray]

28. That's not the point....

All priests are supposed to be celibate, anyhow. So, the sexual tendencies don't matter. If they don't participate in any sexual activity, they are not sinning.

[peacebird]

37. it IS the point - according to Ratzo's own words...

"he said that homosexuality was “intrinsically evil” and a “moral evil.” Cardinal Ratzinger had said the church had to fight the homosexual and fight against legislation that “condoned” homosexuality."

he says homosexuality itself is intrinsically evil - not the sexual expression of homosexual love but homosexuality itself. therefore he condemns all homosexuals as intrinsically evil, whether they are celibate or not. One cannot allow the "intrinsically evil" to be priests, can they?

by way of disclaimer - I think Ratzo is totally wrong. God doesn't make garbage. Man's own fears and prejudices are at work in this pope, not God's (or Christ's) beliefs.

[yurbud]

24. My point was not anti-gay, just anti-hypocrisy

their public statements don't match their furtive behavior.

[jbnow]

10. Theoretically being gay is no sin

As long as it isn't acted on...gay sex is the "sin". Since priests are called to be celibate, orientation wouldn't matter.

What makes me not even consider the rest of this pope's view is his statements on the pedophiles. To blame the press, for putting protecting the church above protecting the children takes away any moral authority.

Can you imagine Jesus being upset about the disclosure rather then seeking to heal those wounded children?

Gay priests aren't the issue there, pedophile priests are. And while there are pedophiles in many places in society if you can't trust a church to put the children first they aren't worthy of any loyalty. Any bishop or cardinal who knowingly covered for them or transferred them so more kids could be hurt should be arrested for child endangerment. Really. I don't know why they weren't. This popes statements on this tragedy were disgusting, that he was elected was a slap in the face to every child.

So I don't care what he says about anything else

[Misunderestimator]

4. Thank you so much for posting this!

It was electrifying. Chills ran up and down my spine as I watched the protesters and then looked back at Ratzinger. Soon, anger swelled up inside me: This man was the embodiment of all that had oppressed me, all the horrors I had suffered as a child. It was because of his bigotry that my family, my church—everyone around me—had alienated me, and it was because of his bigotry that I was called “faggot” in school. Because of his bigotry I was treated like garbage. He was responsible for the hell I’d endured. He and his kind were the people who forced me to live in shame, in the closet. I became livid.

[BigBearJohn]

26. It was sent to me by an EX-priest who left when he came out of closet

[ruggerson]

5. This is a good piece

in that it describes the sheer childhood agony of what these monsters put gay kids through. Something that straight people understand deeply when they have a gay sibling or kid, but something that other straight people simply don't get at all.

Every time this new Pope or his cardinals utters more of their vicious anti-gay dogma, there is a gay child somewhere who is struck in the heart with a sledgehammer.

These people are truly monsters and the world needs to know it.

[Toucano]

6. Where's Sinead O'Connor when we need her?

Fight the real enemy? Is that what she said?

Hmmm. Maybe she was right after all.

[onehandle]

8. She recanted that action. nt

[bush_is_wacko]

9. BigBearJohn, I know you well enough to KNOW you are capable of realizing

what is going on! Fundies are in control of our airwaves and newspapers, remember? You and I BOTH know how much Fundies LOVE us Catholics, right? Ratzinger is a plant, IMO. They are succeeding in infiltrating the church, but there are still good priests out there. And, I think the church is on to them as well. The average, everyday Catholic priest will never even mention him except on Easter Sunday, Today, Christmas...you get the picture.

I LEFT the church over rhetoric like this and am NOW considering going back. Why? Cause I attended an Evangelical/Fundie (not quite sure EXACTLY where they lie in the spectrum because they advertise non-denominational) for 3 months, listened to 11 full sermons and walked out in the middle of the 12th. They are collecting Catholic souls in those churches and they are NOT like us!

Remember how much they hated Kennedy? Remember what they have said in the past about Catholicism being a NON-Christian church? Remember what the said about the Pope being a false Christian? There is a war going on BigBearJohn. Don't fall victim to their rhetoric OR their plants!

Our REAL priest are well aware of what's going on. The REAL reason Kerry couldn't get elected was that he was a CATHOLIC. Think back all those years. You will recognize the pattern. PNAC? They have found a place to call home within the walls of every Fundie/Evangelical church in the nation.

I know this sounds crazy to some, but I SEE now! They convinced me to leave the church once with their rhetoric. It won't happen again.

[mahina]

15. I support you in your faith, but the Catholic Church lost me

when they allowed Cardinal Law to speak at the Vatican after the Pope died. That they would be so unashamed, so brazen- they said to me, we don't have a problem, those kids don't matter, and I was so angry I just gave up on them and their hypocritical bs.
I loved our priest growing up, he was a loving, funny, educated, hardass sweetheart I would turn to for guidance and trust. If he were still her I am sure he would be fighting this bs.
I hope you are right that there is resistance.

[bush_is_wacko]

19. Rome is NOT the Catholic church. Rome HAS a problem.

The only way to battle that problem is from WITHIN. Turning away from the church is what ROME and the fundies want you to do. If parishioners don't back the REAL leaders of this church the Fundies have succeeded. I see the inner battle. Priest are starting to acknowledge it in private. I haven't been to Sunday mass in nearly twenty years, but I recently remembered the context of a conversation I had with my grandmothers parish priest. Not ONLY did he admit the problem. he attempted to reassure my entire extended family that our concerns were being addressed from within. His words have come back to haunt me this past few weeks.

It has occurred to me that priests do take a vow of secrecy and they OFTEN do things to secretly undermine the Vatican. After watching one particular priest talk about John Paul during his funeral, it occurred to me he sounded like someone trying to make a stand.

The name of the new Pope and the order he is with has a fairly profound meaning to monks and priests, but parishioners don't have much history behind it. This pope is a problem and the priest KNOW it. Benedictines REALLY do believe in the piety/poverty issue. THIS Benedictine DOESN'T practice it. He's a problem, but despite what it looks like I've seen a little glimmer that leads me to believe the priests KNOW what he is and they KNOW who's in charge in Rome. I think they want him there in order to keep an eye on him.

I am listening to my intuition and taking a lesson from the past. Something is up!

[BigBearJohn]

27. You bring up some good points

Oddly enough this article was sent to me by an ex-priest, who after 50 years as a priest came to grips with his own sexuality. (And NO he does not like little boys). I still have warm feelings for the catholics and some of the priests I have known in my life. You bring up some EXTREMELY good points and thank you for that.

[bush_is_wacko]

34. Your welcome. And you know your priest will NEVER admit it, right? n/t

[applegrove]

12. If "god" can work through a gay man, the pope should be able to hack it!

I cannot read it. It is too sad. But I will have to write and ask that all art done my Michaelangelo be returned to the gay/lesbian community. Where it belongs. That means the Pieta & the Sistine Chapel to name just a few homosexual works of art.

Obviously if 'god' could work through Michaelangelo, the pope should be able to hack it.

This beautiful sculpture by Michaelangelo sits just inside the doors to St. Peter's Basilica. Just a hop, skip and a jump near where all the popes are buried.

[bush_is_wacko]

25. Do you ever get the idea that Catholicism in general was ALWAYS

really run by the gay community? I sometimes think that is one of the best kept secrets in the church. The true philosophy of the church in it's original form and the fact that Jesus surrounded himself with a bunch of adoring men makes me wonder...frequently!

Priests don't marry. They live among other men and rarely interact with the nuns, who ALSO live among each other and are cloistered off from society. You know nuns used to be from the wealthiest families around. They were often women that absolutely NEVER showed interest in men, only in education. They lived in luxurious accommodations and had extensive libraries full of books. Nuns were the first women to ever be highly educated.

Doesn't really say much about their sexual preferences, but it's a fun fact anyway.

[cally]

31. Did you ever read the book, "Gallileo's Daughter?"

The conditions his daughters' lived in were pretty horrid. The book implies that was typical for convents.

[bush_is_wacko]

33. Nuns in Spain were very well kept originally.

No I have not read that book. And I did definitely see a decline in the Nun existence over time. The church at one point decided Nuns were drawing too much attention to themselves by wearing these huge brooches that depicted the Virgin Mary. The brooches became like a status symbol among nuns. The bigger more ornate one your family paid for the more prominent you became in the eyes of the other nuns. The church clamped down on this BIG time at some point and started making nuns take the same vow of poverty the priests lived with. They were always highly educated compared to the average woman back then, though. I remember this coming as a shock to me when I first saw these portraits and brooches several years ago. I thought nuns ALWAYS existed under impoverished conditions.

I know the church and Catholics in general often portray things that way and I suspect that IS the way it was for nuns in some convents although, I know, giving a daughter over to the church was always considered a prestigious thing to do. It meant you were wealthy enough not to need her in your old age or blessed enough to have MANY daughters.

Anyway, I saw those brooches and the pictures of these Spanish Nuns. I can assure you they lived quite luxuriously, but I don't remember if it was the families that were providing that support to them or the church. My guess would be the families. Spain and Mexico have alway added quite a bit of flair to Catholicism IMO. The paganism intermingled with the bare bones Catholicism is quite interesting and I am not quite sure why current Popes don't mention it anymore. When they condemned it many years ago, they really condemned it, but now it seems they accept it.

[Bryn]

13. Matthew Fox was silenced and then defrocked by Cardinal Ratz

He's now an Episcopalian Priest. He believed in embracing gay people & women and their rights and taught about many things that the Vatican did not approve. I have read one of his wonderful books and now want to read the rest. He's very open to all religions, even the Old Path. He's a founder of Creation & Spirituality if I am correct.

www.matthewfox.org

[calzone]

14. It's an interesting tidbit....

...a well written anecdote, but spectacularly uninformative. Tho' I'm a Catholic, I don't know that much about Ratzinger, and the author makes alot of sweeping condemnations of the cardinal and blames him for the bulk of the assholes that were mean to him growing up, but he doesn't back it up with specifics or examples beyond alleging that Ratzinger once declared that homosexuality is "intrinsically evil".
And I'dve liked to have read that the protesters had waited for Ratzinger to say something inflammatory or revealingly intolerant before they launched into their tirade of civil disobedience. I would also have liked to hear a distillation of what the cardinal said after the demonstrators were hustled off. A revelatory opportunity lost. I was poised to buy into the apparent premise that our new Pope is intolerant and harbors that strangely incendiary hatred so many do towards gays, but all I came away with was an individuals blurred snapshot.

[ruggerson]

16. Well apparently you have problems reading then

It's very clear that Ratzinger mobilized and led the political arm of the Vatican to fight equal rights for gay people around the globe, but primarily in America.

If that salient fact is not enough for you, then I would guess you're either trolling or you have preconceived notions that facts will not disabuse.

[calzone]

32. I'm sorry you feel threatened....

I gave my honest opinion of that piece, if it bothers you, tough shit. Call me a troll and impugn my reading ability all you want, it only makes you look like a 3 yr old.
Thanks for the background links Sapphire, I'll go thru them.

[ooglymoogly]

18. wake up and smell the rat poison

did you not see his latest statement on spain. the first after becoming pope. this humble man...what a load of crap

[bush_is_wacko]

23. Good for you. You can see beyond! Ratzinger is a problem

but the church outside of Rome knows it, IMO. for a Benedictine priest he is neither humble, full of piety, or a symbol of poverty. He doesn't resemble the Benedictine order in any way I can tell, but it seems to me the church outside of Rome is being closed mouth enough for me to believe they know it. Catholic Priest believe it is THEIR duty to handle matters like this WITHOUT involving their flock. That is the reason for the existence of Opus Dei.

I'm making no real judgment calls just yet. I think there is an awful lot pointing to an infiltration by Christian groups of hate and the spreading of their rhetoric around the globe.

[ooglymoogly]

17. he did what any right headed person should

but sadly rarely does. the nazis are in firm control of all centers of power and are not going to relinquish them without a fight.

[Sapphire Blue]

20. Ratzinger's persecution of Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen

If you'd like more background on Ratzinger...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3514470

http://www.google.com/search?q=Ratzinger%27s+persecution+of+Archbishop+Raymond+Hunthausen&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&start=0&sa=N&filter=0

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&tab=wn&q=ratzinger%27s+persecution+of+Archbishop+Raymond+Hunthausen&ie=UTF-8&filter=0

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-07%2CGGLD%3Aen&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&filter=0&q=Ratzinger+%26+Hunthausen&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

http://news.google.com/news?q=Ratzinger%20%26%20Hunthausen&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&sa=N&tab=wn

[calzone]

35. All of those links...

Deal primarily with one issue...Ratzingers relations with Archbishop Raymond Hunthausen. I read them, I can't condemn Ratzinger for a single incident unless/until I can also find the story told from the POV of the Vatican. I'd expect Ratzinger to stick to church doctrine, I think that just like John Paul, he acts out of sincere belief and faith, not out of malice or ulterior agendas. I don't agree with the doctrine, but I can't slam him or call him a bad man.
I'd need more compelling evidence than this. He said the church should adhere to it's core principals and not be blown around by the winds of passing popular trends. Of course, I think that's wrong because I question the interpretation of the core principals, but like I said, I ain't gonna demonize anyone, at least not yet.
The guy ain't even had a chance to get his funny hat sized yet, let's wait & see what he does. He might lighten up, there's speculation that he may go along with ordaining women and letting priests marry. I might be proved wrong, but that remains to be seen.

[Sapphire Blue]

36. This 'one issue' - Ratzinger's persecution of Hunthausen - continued

... over a period of years... it was merciless... relentless. It not only affected Hunthausen, but also affected the Seattle Archdiocese as a whole. Archbishop Hunthausen, a strong advocate for social justice, was loved & greatly respected by us... and still is, though he's retired.

I've seen what Ratzinger did as the man behind the curtain... we'll see what he does now that he's on the throne.

I look forward to his addressing world poverty... a global issue which can make others seem trivial in comparison.

[calzone]

38. not only world poverty...

Which is as important as you point out, but it's ugly nephew, crass consumerism, which he's on record as detesting. I don't doubt the accuracy of what you said abt the archbishop, the article however says that his petty enemies reported and sent poisonous missives, maybe bearing false witness against their neighbor. The Vatican at least sent envoys to see for themselves before judging, and tho' his power was diluted, temporarily, the article said he was ultimately restored due to the outcry from his flock & admirers. Here's my take, the new pope is well aware that the church is shrinking and priests are as hard to recruit as Iraq war fighters, he surely recognizes that he's gonna have to loosen up to stem the hemorrhaging, for the sake of the church's survival. I'm very reluctant to condemn clergy (even tho' I'm not a practicing Catholic), they saved countless poor ppl, peasants victimized and persecuted by our anti-commie policies in central and s. America, where despite their efforts at least a million innocent ppl over the years were turned into maggot-food by our illustrious, freedom-loving CIA. The nuns & priests payed a heavy price too. Hell, I don't even believe the pedophilia is as rampant as everyone seems so anxious to believe. There's alot of ppl using this rubbish of "suppressed memories" to cash in on soft targets with deep pockets, IMHO.

[Sapphire Blue]

39. Ratzinger is not concerned with people leaving the Church

... he sees it as making the church 'purer'... shades of something similar to ethnic-cleansing?

The Latin American clergy does not receive strong support from the Vatican... rather criticism & often condemnation, instead.

Several Latin American Cardinals who advocate for the poor would have been a far better choice for the Papacy.

Your beliefs in or denial of the existence of pedophilia & the validity of 'suppressed memories' are not relevant to the victims of priests' abuse, and are insulting rubbish.

[calzone]

40. Really?

I certainly think that the fact that the problem is'nt as widespread as reported and that many accusers are lying to collect cash is hardly of no relevance. And I don't know why my belief that suppressed memories are B.S. is "insulting" or rubbish. Both are mystifying statements. Are you saying I'm wrong?

[dsc]

21. Great article

thanks for the post.

[phaseolus]

22. Entertaining Ratzinger anecdote

"... (theologian Daniel) Maguire loves telling the story about meeting Ratzinger. He and (his son) Tom - who is now 29 and a Muslim who is raising a family and studying in Cairo - had just seen the pope in the square. Suddenly there was Ratzinger.

Maguire asked if he could snap a photo of him with Tom. "But of course," Ratzinger replied in English. Then he asked Maguire if he was enjoying his pilgrimage to Rome.

"Oh, yes," Maguire responded, "especially because I'm a Catholic theologian."

The smile ran from Ratzinger's face. Considering this layperson in front of him, he asked, "A theologian?"

"Yes, my name is Daniel Maguire."

"What?!" Ratzinger sputtered. "You are Daniel Maguire?" He glared at Maguire, possibly recalling the name from the high-profile effort Maguire led with another priest to get Catholics to ignore the 1968 encyclical from Pope Paul VI condemning the use of birth control..."

more -- http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/apr05/320665.asp

[Zorra]

29. Gays are an easy and popular target for conservative politicians like

Pope Neocon I.

Now, when dude comes out and vehemently and clearly publicly condemns Bush for personally ordering the bloodbath in Iraq, we might be able to begin to take him seriously instead of as just another phony conservative hypocrite.

Otherwise, he is just like a Tom Delay in Popes clothing.

[ruggerson]

30. Who doesn't need lobbyists to pay for his airfare n/t