Why doesn't Bill Gates just move to Asia, and quit being a parasite?

[kcwayne]

He is lobbying hard with Congress to remove the caps on H1B visa, in order to be able to bring in more tech workers from India and Asia. NPR said this morning that Gates stated he had to expand Microsoft in Asia because he just cannot find engineers here in the US anymore.

Seattle has an unemployment rate of about 7%, and a lot of those people are unemployed technology workers. I have worked in the industry for over 20 years, and have never seen lower bill rates or career opportunities in the field. I know innumerable people that have left the industry in the last 5 years, because they cannot find work or business. Electronic Engineering Times has been writing for years about the continued decline of employment in the engineering and computer fields, which has been so severe the viability of the US economy has been damaged, and will continue to decline because of the lack of innovation.

Removing the H1B visa caps is all about lowering wages, and nothing to do about availability of technical talent. Bill has enough money to pay off the feudal lords in China and set up a new empire over there, and do the same thing in India so he does not need to mess with the US government.

He should go, and get his miserable company's hands out of the taxpayer funded trough they are so attached to. You know that the reason Microsoft caved on support of the gay rights bill was due to being threatened by Republicans with a cutoff from government contracts.

The government had to spend a lot of money and use brutal police and military tactics in the first part of the 20th century to suppress a disillusioned work force that sought representation in the labor movement. What the capitalist class forgot during that era was that their safety, and the security to conduct business peacefully is predicated on the working class having a vested interest in that business, even though that interest is very small.

People like Bill Gates might need to budget much bigger dollars for security and bribes to keep from ending up like the French Aristocracy if they continue to look at the lives of Americans as a cost item on a spread sheet, and suck out the wealth of the country without restocking the pond by providing opportunity for the small guy to be able to afford the bare essentials required to feed and clothe himself and his family.

So screw the H1B visa Bill, move your campus to Calcutta and Beijing. Oh excuse me, you are already there? So what is the problem, other than you don't like paying middle class wages to people that work 60 hours a week in your Dilbert cubes in Seattle?

[bryant69]

1. America should be come a Third WOrld Country

We should eliminate minimum wage laws, worker protections, labor laws and the like. Then things would be really great (for the very wealthy, that is).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[AlCzervik]

5. you mean Will become a 3rd world country

it's only a matter of time.

[Triana]

6. we are approaching third world status...

...like a freight train. It's already happening.

[earth mom]

8. You took the words right out of my mouth. nt

[Triana]

2. this is the crux of it all...

"Removing the H1B visa caps is all about lowering wages, and nothing to do about availability of technical talent. "

You said it.

[Wright Patman]

3. China

has no history of individual liberty of which I am aware. I don't know if any of the major countries in East Asia do. I remember the workers in South Korea, a country one would think might be closer to desiring what we have than others, being fairly brutally suppressed in recent years. India may be different.

So, yes, he WILL have to move everything to Asia that he hasn't already at some point. He might even consider having surgery to establish the epicanthic fold over his eyes so as to fit in better over there.

There is really nothing the U.S. and Western Europe can do about the 'race to the bottom.' At least Europeans are willing to hang on for dear life to their safety net. Ours never was as generous and is being dismantled as we speak. So there'll be blood in the streets here before long as people fight for basics of life such as food and shelter.

That is the real reason the USA PATRIOT Act was passed right after 9-11. The 'war on terror' was bogus from the git-go. 9-11 was an inside job. The NWO controllers know that a police state will be necessary to "manage" the U.S. labor force's descent into oblivion, which is gathering momentum as we speak.

[Fire Walk With Me]

25. Ask your local Tibetan about China

http://www.tibet.org

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

33. People here say the same thing about Aztlan/US Southwest

The US seized half of Mexico's territory in the 1848 US-Mexican War on very corrupt grounds (General Grant himself acknowledged this). In fact, it's all but indistinguishable on ethical grounds from the Axis attack on Poland in 1939, except that Polk and the US expansionists justified the land grab in terms of "Manifest Destiny" rather than "Lebensraum." (Same crap, different garb.) Mexico, the Mexican people, and native Americans (who had long crossed that "border" freely) never did accept this, and now are culturally and politically reasserting themselves there. As China has its Tibet, the US has its Aztlan-- as it's often called-- with a major difference: The quantity and quality of the territory seized in 1848 was much greater (coastal, rich in mineral wealth) than is the case in East Asia, and the indigenous population of Mexicans far, far larger and being constantly replenished.

[Ms. Clio]

37. Yes , in a couple of centuries

this land will belong to the indigenous people again.

[Djinn]

40. I'm no friend of the Chinese government

but the Tibetan system prior to Chinese occupation wasn't overly fond of individual liberties either, Feudalists rarely are.

[wickerwoman]

38. Ignorance and Xenophobia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Principles_of_the_People

"The Principle of Mínzú (Min²-tsu², 民族主義 "The People's Relation/Connection" or "Government of the People"): Nationalism. By this, Sun meant freedom from imperialist domination.
The Principle of Mínquán (Min²-ch'üan², 民權主義 "The People's Power" or "Government by the People"): Democracy. To Sun, it represented a Western constitutional government. First, he divided political life of his ideal for China into two 'powers':
The power of politics (zhèngquán): This is the power of the people to express their political wishes, similar to a parliament in other countries, and is represented by the National Assembly.
The power of governance (zhìquán): this is the power of administration. Here he expanded the European-American constitutional theory of a three-branch government and a system of checks and balances by incorporating traditional Chinese administrative tradition to create a government of five branches (each of which is called a yuàn or 'court').
The Principle of Mínshēng (Min²-sheng¹, 民生主義 "The People's Welfare/Livelihood" or "Government for the People"): this is sometimes translated as socialism, although the government of Chiang Kai-Shek shied away from translating it as such. Sun understood it as an industrial economy and equality of land holdings for the Chinese peasant farmers."


As for "He might even consider having surgery to establish the epicanthic fold over his eyes so as to fit in better over there"- what an incredibly ugly and pointless thing to say.

[Wright Patman]

41. I don't understand why

I should consider Taiwan as "China." I thought this was a clear line of demarcation in our foreign policy.

Let me just say that Tiananmen Square really fixed in my mind for all time the impression I have of the "People's" Republic of China and it is not a good one. But then I do not have a favorable opinion of the central government of the United States either.

That's just my "slant" on things. Pointless, I know, but I couldn't resist. And as for ugliness, I'm a Caucasian with a big nose so, of course, by their standards I am ugly and probably inferior in every way.

[SmokingJacket]

4. I heard him lying on the radio this morning.

Saying something to the effect that offshoring labor had "nothing to do with" saving money... that we just didn't have enough engineers over here.

Hello?? So I guess there shouldn't be ANY unemployed American engineers, then. That the minute an American graduates with an engineering degree, they're snapped up! Right!

You can pay an Indian engineer $5000 a year, and they'll be thrilled: too cheap to resist, eh Bill?

[MadHound]

7. Yeah, I heard that same shit this morning also

And was thinking about the same thing. Gates is a lying, stealing, unoriginal nerd, who now that he is a multi-billionaire he is taking out his anger for not getting laid, or a date, in high school out on the entire country.

Just one more reason I'll stick with an Mac, thank you very much.

[high density]

44. I've been trying to get a software development job for months now

Unfortunately I have little experience and nobody seems to be willing to hire entry-level programmers. Heck, I'd relocate over to Redmond, WA next month if I knew that there was a job available for me at MS.

[ArkDem]

9. That miserable human being has never produced on thing

that society can use!

[KlatooBNikto]

10. You know why Gates, Chambers and others need the U.S.? We have

a legal and financial structure that makes it possible for them to operate without the corruption and stealing in India or China.When they have the U.S. to back them up, they can get the best deals in wages, taxes and incentives in India or China.This is why they will never leave. They now have the best of both worlds.

[northzax]

11. ahh, nothing like a downturn to bring out the xenophobia

and nothing like a tech geek to complain about Microsoft.

now can we look at it cleanly for a minute? If there really are all these top flight unemployed engineers everyone keeps talking about (gee, all the engineers and computer people I know make my salary with an extra zero on the end) why aren't they out creating something, doing something that adds value to a product and justifies their desired salary? Because they are technicians? not creators and developers, but push button techs?

The problem with any skill that doesn't add value to a commodity is that it is replacable by someone who can and will do it faster and cheaper. It's not the gravy train, not something you can actually do better than someone else, it's a commodity, the person who can produce it cheapest and fastest wins.

If there are so many eager engineering students out there to fill the void, why are MIT and CalTech having trouble filling spots in their graduate programs with the new visa laws? and graduate programs are neccesary.

Engineering, whether software, hardware or mechanical is progressivly becoming a profession closer to law or medicine in the need for education and continuing education. You can become a para-legal with an undergrad degree, but you can't become a leader in the profession without one anymore. Cheap labour is a commodity, if you can't add value, you lose. welcome to the flat earth.

quick: what city has the highest number of phd's in the world? Name the three top phd producing countries in the world. Name the four countries that produce the most engineers, in order:
Name the 10 countries that have the greatest penetration of broadband technology in the world:

you know what all four of those questions have in common? the lack of presence of the United States on any of them. Intellectual capital is fleeing the US at an unprecedented rate. if Gates is trying to bring some of it back, what's the problem?

[kcwayne]

12. If you think this is just a downturn, you are not paying attention

and are not well informed.

Intellectual capital is fleeing, and not being reproduced because the opportunities have left or are leaving the country for lower cost labor.

There are limited opportunities in product development left in the high tech industry. Every major tech firm has moved major R&D centers, software porting, contract manufacturing, et all over seas. Every product center in every company I do consulting work for will not be here in five years. I certainly am not aware of every product cycle in the country, but from what I have read over the five years, my experience and observations are not anecdotal.

Creating products in the technology arena takes large amounts of capital because the speed required to get to market is so accelerated. There is a huge disincentive to invest large amounts of money in the computer and electronic fields because of the inability to enforce patents. You put the money into it, and someone in China or India copies it and sells it more cheaply, unimpeded to the US. Software and electronics patents are a joke the minute someone overseas powers up a production plant and starts funneling their stolen property through their distribution channel (Walmart).

If you think this is bullshit, just talk to some venture capitalists, or more laughably, a US bank. They gave up on electronics. Now the rage is bioengineering. But my PHD research chemist buddies are telling me that they are going through the same chase to the bottom.

This problem is not a downturn. It is an economic tornado, and we are living in mobile homes.

[northzax]

13. as I said, it's the commoditisation of information

followed by skills. next up is knowledge.

adapt or die, no amount of protectionism will prevent the hammer from falling.

[kcwayne]

15. The hammer has already fallen, and under the current paradigm

nothing will prevent the transformation of the US into a two class system. Once that happens, and labor cost is no longer the primary differentiator between the viability of enterprises, the free fall to serfdom will stabilize, and American knowledge may once again become a tradable commodity.

But Americans are playing on a field that stacked against them and fundamentally unfair. We have paid taxes, and made sacrifices with our lives and health through a sundry of wars to build infrastructure and a culture that created the great economic boom that occurred during the 20th century. Now it is being given away for free, and one group of investors in that enterprise (the working class) have had their stock rendered valueless. The other group of investors that had preferred stock (the capital class) are enjoying a historically unprecedented transfer of wealth.

China and India have not invested heavily in their own infrastructure and created efficient transportation systems, power grids, production technologies, school systems, and building capability which is the entry point to advanced society. They have leap-frogged over that step by getting massive amounts of technology and capital from the west, and that is why their transformation from agrarian economies to manufacturing economies has not raised the standard of living in their countries. That major transformational step was paid for by 4 generations of Americans whose only royalty from the transaction is a pink slip.

Meanwhile, third world cheap labor countries are being given the means to produce things that cannot be sold in their own countries because they will have no market for them until their standard of living rises. Given their historical adherence to maintaining slave laborers, which Western capitalists are only too happy to exploit, who knows how long that will take? The decline of the US economy looks to be accelerating much, much faster than the growth of a consumer class in these countries. They will not be able to buy product to replace the volume that wage destruction in America is vaporizing, so their ascent from feudalism is directly affected by the health of our economy. They have significant challenges ahead of them as well.

There is no question that Americans have to adapt. The truth is they will be adapting to lowered expectations, and the lives of todays children will have the same level of economic insecurity of my grandparents, who had very little, but lost it all in the Great Depression.

The winners in this game are those that already have their capital deployed in third world operations and can take advantage of the innovation that springs up over there, or who come across a niche here that can be successfully sold to a population base that has virtually no disposable income.

[emc]

14. two sides of coin

My son is an engineer--took him fully 10 or 12 years to get a PHD and professorship----he makes 100,000 a year for all his troubles and education---he could have become a movie star, rock singer---lawyer, or any of many other choices to make a hell of a lot more with a lot less effort---
From what he informs me, he cant get American grad students. All his grad students (8 or so) are from overseas, for the simple reason, they want to become American citizens---its not to get a degree and go back to their countries, its to stay here under any circumstances. They stress education in these countries and not rock or movie status.Here in the US, 100 grand and the american dream, is better then nothing instead of returning to their countries.
This country has failed to bring education to the young but instead it has given them the idea, why go through all that trouble, (school) when you can sing, or act and get there faster. Most dont, but then its too late to go back after they see that its not attainable.
There are too many Celeb programs on television pushing the good life style, cars, million dollar homes, etc. Why do it the hard way for only a pitance...
Where are the Carl Sagan's today---they aren't around anymore. When was the last time you saw a scientist or engineer promoted on TV.
This country has it head up its ass and it cant last---
I see it from Gates point of view he hasn't got much choice, either bring in talent from foreign countries, move your operation of loose competivness........Look at IBM---they moved.

[kcwayne]

16. Gates is mis-representing the problem

Microsoft has operations in China, India, Russia, and other SE Asian countries. His product can be transported across the world instantaneously at very little cost. He can do research anywhere, and does so. There are no barriers to innovation of software based on geographic locale. Microsoft, and all major companies are extremely successfull in transporting their knowledge base and processes to any place in the world.

He does not need to bring foreign nationals that work for 10% of what Americans do to solve a lack of talent problem. He needs to lower the cost of operations in the US. He can bring in contractors through Tata (an Indian firm) at a fraction of what US based contractors cost. The presence of Tata, causes all contractors to lower their price.

Microsoft maintains a large pool of temp contractors to avoid the FICA, health care, and pension liability. If they added those people to their permanant staff, it would change the balance sheet and the stock valuation would be negatively impacted.

This is a money decision. It has nothing to do with the availability of talent. In 2 days and I could make calls to my associates and peers and come up with the names of over 100 software people that are either unemployed or employed in other fields.

I have advanced degrees in Engineering and Computer Science. My daughter will not be going into this field because the future is so bleak. She won't be a rock star either.

[K-W]

17. Your accusation of xenophobia is unfounded.

Believing that US corporations should provide jobs for US citizens is not xenophobic.

[northzax]

20. yes, actually, it is

kidna by definition. "keep the furreners away from my job" is kinda the textbook definition.

now I don't think the OP meant it quite that simply, and has expounded on it further (to his/her credit) but being scared of foreigners is xenophobia in my world.

how would you define xenophobia?

[K-W]

32. What kind of rediculous textbook would say that?

Xenophobia is a little like Arachnophobia, only unlike an unreasonable fear of spiders it is any fear or hatred of foriegners (because fear and hatred of people just because they are foriegn is of course unreasonable)
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=xenophobia&x=11&y=13

That doesnt even enter into the equation here. It doesnt matter that they are foriegners, and nobody hates them or fears them. We hate the people in positions of power who control our livelyhoods and who use whatever methods they can, in this case attracting foriegn labor, to extract as much profit as possible from the rest of us.

Xenophobia here is the same as calling someone anti-semetic for disagreeing with Isreali foriegn policy. Just because bears a resemblence to xenophobia doesnt make it xenophobia.

[ultraist]

23. In my area, Research Triangle Park

We have a very high percentage of PhDs and Masters degrees, in fact, one of the highest in the nation. YET, our unemployment rate is higher than the national average.

Over the last couple of years, two Masters level engineers, one Masters in CS, and one Bachelor's level techie person were laid off on my street alone! One found comparable work, one could NOT so started consulting and is NOT making near what he was and the last two are are underemployed.

SAS, recently announced they were taking more tech jobs to China, including a BIG piece of their R&D dept. IBM has had several layoffs.

I'm not sure your claims are accurate. Do you have an actual stats with links to back up your assertions?

[high density]

45. Xenophobia?

I don't hate foreigners, I just want a decent job. And since I'm attempting to live in America, I can't work for the same amount of money that an Indian can. I do not have a graduate degree, but since when did that become a requirement to be a software engineer? Most of the job listings I see could care less about an education beyond a BS degree but instead value job experience. I have virtually no experience and there is absolutely no job market in software for recent grads. Right now I'm still working in the job that I had during college and making about poverty level wage. Fortunately for me, I still live at home with my parents so my cost of living is virtually zero, but I would like to become self sufficient and stop leeching off of them. If I didn't have loving parents I'd be really fucked right now.

[lovuian]

18. Gates should move to Russia Theres a Billionaire in jail there

the government came in and arrested him and took his company!!!

I could only hope that happens to Gates its only fitting!!!

[mutus_frutex]

19. Both my wife and I are on H1B visas.

Let me say first that our situations are a bit different since we are in academia, so our salaries are already lower than what's paid in industry.

That said, I find these threads really startling. I truly didn't expect them in a liberal forum, to me they sound extremely reactionary (even xenophobic, as pointed out by another poster).

I also find it strange that I'm being accused (in a roundabout way) of stealing jobs form americans when every time my visa needs to be renewed, a posting goes up offering my position to any American with the appropriate skills. Let me also say that my salary is not determined by the fact that I have an H1B visa but by my experience. An American with my experience would get my salary.

Personally, I would be very happy to do my job in my home country if I were able to have the same salary I have here. What the heck, with half my salary I'd live like a king. It would also be great for my country because it invests a lot of money in education and many have to leave because of lack of opportunities. That lack of opportunities is very much related to the hegemony that the US has enforced for half a century (and that many people in these forums decries). Therefore, I find it somewhat bemusing when so-called liberals bitch about the end of such hegemony.

Yes, I wish MS would move to Asia. And to South America (my country would really provide a great spot for the new MS campus).

I just wonder if the people that bitch about the H1B's understand that they are essentially allied with the religious right that is pushing most of biomedical research out of the US.

[kcwayne]

21. Man are you ever missing the point by a mile

Global trade proponents are all about opening the borders and eliminating government restrictions to allow everyone with something to sell to come here and do it. Of course there are restrictions to this slipped into the law by special interest groups, so not the trade doors are not entirely open.

This open corridor is very much appreciated by countries anxious for access to US markets. But they all take the view that open trade is a one way street.

For example, I could not go to India or China to work because they will not allow me in, even though I have advanced engineering degrees and years of highly relevant experience. But Tata (an Indian company) is able to bring thousands upon thousands of programmers to the US, pay them $5000 per year and cover their living expenses in company apartments (they put 5-8 in an apartment), and destroy the fair value price for contract programmers. They do it on a large scale, as evidenced by their multi-billion dollar per year revenue stream, mostly culled from the US.

Offshore restrictions go well beyond labor exchange. The have tariffs to prevent US companies from exporting goods into their country in industries they want to protect. It is part of the reason why the imbalance of trade in the US is so catastrophic, and is going to lead the US into an Argentinian style currency collapse.

So its an issue of fairness. And what is happening is extremely unfair to the US workers that built this country with the vision that their children and grandchildren would benefit. Their investment in schools, infrastructure, and community development that created the economic engine that the entire world is clamoring to sell into. They cannot sell into their own countries because they have not made these investments and have not moved up the economic ladder. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this posting.

The hegemony issue is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the 20 man machine shop in Milwaukee that has to close because his cost for labor and adherence OSHA and EPA guidelines make his parts more expensive than the shop in China where they are allowed to dump solvents into the river, and pay people $3.00 per day and not provide social security type benefits. That machine shop owner has nothing to do with the political manipulations this government has been guilty of.

And as far as alignment with the religious right goes, I presume that you are unaware that the leading proponent in Congress for expanding the H1B visa program because of the "lack of available talent" is Orin Hatch, the definition of a religious right winger.

I doubt you are very familiar with the liberal tradition in the US. From the early progressives fighting for voting rights, elimination of child labor, 40 hour work week, workman's comp, Medicare and social security, a common theme has been the protection of workers from capitalists. Liberalism is noted for standing up for the rights of workers. It is well within the tradition of liberals and progressives to speak out against unfairness to workers. The fact that you are benefiting from this labor imbalance does not change the fundamental fact that the policy is taking advantage away from the labor class and bestowing it on the capital class.

[ultraist]

27. Oftentimes we do see a lot of xenophobia with regard to foreign workers

primarily in the discussions of "illegal aliens."

I do agree that the Democratic Party has traditionally fought for the rights of workers and opposed huge megacorporations taking advantage of our tax system and driving down wages. There must be some accountability and transparency with the large corps whose profits are historically high.

The middle class is dwindling while the megacorps thrive due to Republican policies.

We may well have a shortage of qualified talent in certain fields. Our lower educational systems suck, so it's no wonder foreign students & researchers are encouraged to attend college and work here. I'm not so sure that's the case with tech industry.

[mutus_frutex]

42. I was planning to answer you post but

Another of my messages got deleted. I'm the process of reviewing my presence in these forums.

Let me just say that I understand your frustration and will explain my position in length if I decide to stay.

Best regards and my apologies.

[idlisambar]

22. Not correct

Removing the H1B visa caps is all about lowering wages, and nothing to do about availability of technical talent

The move is indeed intended to Microsoft a wider pool of talent from which to recruit; wages are only a secondary consideration. Microsoft, by the standards of an American corporation, treats its employees very well and H1-B folks are as well-payed as domestics. In fact the financial burden of an H1-B person tends to be even greater because Microsoft pays their visa processing fees (10's of thousands of dollars).

I don't support lifting the caps but for Microsoft this really is about attracting talent not wages.

[kcwayne]

30. Microsoft isn't the only player in this game, and their use of H1B

if that is what they are using, is a violation of the program's intent.

The H1B visa was put in place to allow companies to bring in foreign workers with specialty knowledge that did not exist in the US.
According to the immigration service, a specialty knowledge is as follows:

A specialty occupation requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge along with at least a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent. For example, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, business specialties, accounting, law, theology, and the arts are specialty occupations.


For example, it would allow a power transmission company based in Italy to send its lead engineer to work for the city of New York to train its staff on the use of the equipment.

That is why the cap on H1B visas was set at 65000 people.

Corporations have bent the interpretation of the H1B program to include software testing, project planning, data conversion, software programming, and a whole host of services that are not that specialized, and for which there is a pool of talent in the US capable of doing the job who are currently unemployed. These IT workers have been displaced by H1B workers from companies like WiPro and Tata solely on the basis of labor cost.

When India allows US workers the same access to their labor markets, one could claim this is just competition. But in the current labor and immigration law climate, it is not competition, it is an injustice to the US worker.

[idlisambar]

39. Not sure about the original intent

from the paragraph you offered it sounds like a lot IT work would fall under the category of specialized occupations -- "engineering" is explicitly listed. I am not aware of the history, so I could be convinced that current practice is a violation of the original intent, but the paragraph offered is ambiguous with respect to the question.

In any case, there is no question about what the program is being used for today. It is clear that the program is an avenue used to hire highly-skilled workers from abroad. The basic question is whether we want to do this or not, and if so how many.

The issue deserves serious debate, and by no means should the interests of IT corporations be the only ones considered. My beef is that a lot of the posters think the issue revolves completely around labor costs.

[Strelnikov_]

43. Edit

Not worth the effort.

[0rganism]

24. I'd rather have the workers coming here, thanks

I work with a lot of Indian and Chinese tech workers here on visas, and let me tell you they work hard. I mean really fucking hard. And they're sharp -- only the best are able to make the cut to get over here. Gates may be on to something, whether we like it or not.

The tech-worker immigrants treat their jobs with a level of reverence that I rarely see among native-born USians. And the same goes for their continuing educations: they'll work hard whether it's at a major university or a community college.

And keep in mind, they're not just squatting on their paychecks, they're recirculating that money through the local economy. Let's suppose for a moment that Gates is right, and there are too few qualified Americans, native or naturalized, to do the work. Would you really rather have all that work be off-shored so 100% of their salaries go overseas? Or would you rather bring the workers here to pay American taxes, American rent, American food? Moreover, wouldn't you rather those workers were here experiencing American labor conditions instead of the sweatshop model? I want the Indians and Chinese and whoever else to become accustomed to a relatively high standard of living; it sure beats us going the other way to make our labor standards match up with the 3rd world.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether Gates is right, or whether you agree with his assessment. He thinks he's right, and that's enough for him to set policy.

[idlisambar]

26. Well put

I wouldn't necessarily eliminate the cap, but generally it is a good thing that the US is able to attract and willing to accept highly-educated and skilled immigrants.

[kcwayne]

28. In the long term it would be better if they applied their talents in their

own countries, and participate in evolving those countries from the repressive feudalism that exists there now. When the standards of living in those countries goes up, we can quit having this awful paradigm where corporations take the spoils, fuck up the environment, convince governments to build them roads, powergrids, and schools to train their workers, and then cut and run for the next country that offers lower priced labor. The laborers of the world are being used like farm animals while the .001% of the world population that owns 99.9% of its assets continue to squeeze us.

[0rganism]

36. but first, in the short term, they have to see a different system

If all you've ever known is repressive feudalism, how would you know what to change?

Exporting American jobs does far more harm to the workers on both sides of the equation than importing foreign workers on temporary visas.

[sadiesworld]

29. "At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether Gates is right...

or whether you agree with his assessment. He thinks he's right, and that's enough for him to set policy."

Bye-bye Democracy.

[0rganism]

35. You waited until NOW to say "bye-bye democracy"?

Look around, and tell me what's different.

In particular, when have CEOs been responsible to anyone but the shareholders?

[orpupilofnature57]

31. How about Bill moves to Washington, and Shrub moves to china..

He can help them with their economy, like he's helped us with ours.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

34. Another reason to be wary of the DLC

The DLC fully embraces the poaching of US jobs and outsourcing as much as possible, to turn the US into a virtual indentured servitude republic. In many ways, the DLC is even worse than the Rethugs b/c they're Trojan horses-- they would do the job of the GOP from within the Democratic Party and thus push out real progressives, while of course ensuring that the Rethugs soon enough regain control as Americans react with disgust at their various scandals while in power. The more I read about Lieberman, Hillary, or their ilk talking up the dubious merits of outsourcing, the more I think that half of the Democratic Party would bolt to a third option if either of these people were on the national ticket.

[ngGale]

46. Gates will get his way because...

he has control over our Windows. Maybe, he will plant a few more security holes to please *.

[funflower]

47. Why do engineers from India not deserve jobs at high-tech companies?

OK. So lots of foreign governments don't do much for their workers. Maybe they'll be motivated to do so when they realize all their Ph.D.'s are going to U.S. companies.

Doesn't seem fair to me that bright people from 3rd world countries shouldn't be allowed to compete with Americans for jobs. Where would U.S. high-tech companies be without foreigners buying their products?