Christian Heritage

[Jara sang]

Is it just me or does that phrase sound an awful lot like "White Power". The Christian Heritage movement is trying to rewrite American history in their favor, saying that this country was founded as a "Christian nation". Well I defy you to show me where in any of our founding documents the word Christian even appears. Take a look at the Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights. The "founding fathers" had the power to create a Christian nation if they so desired. They did not. They understood the importance of separation of church and state.

[seabeyond]

1. founding father quotes

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

- Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

- Thomas Jefferson

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

- John Adams

During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

-James Madison

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

-James Madison

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789

They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Patrick Henry has been quoted as saying that, but as to the context, and the source I am not sure.
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. A Deist according to Webster's is (1) The belief in the existence of a God on purely rational grounds without reliance on revelation or authority; especially in the 17th and 18th centuries. (2) The doctrine that God created the world and its natural laws, but takes no further part in its functioning. Thomas Jefferson wrote his own version of the Bible (The Jefferson Bible), of which I own a copy. It TOTALLY removes all accounts of the divinity of Christ and all of the miracles - including the virgin birth. Benjamin Franklin was raised Episcopalian, but was also a Deist. John Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but later became a Unitarian. Here are what some of the other founders had to say about it.

John Adams:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

John Adams again:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Still more John Adams:

“...Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

James Madison again:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

Finally, a word from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
-- Abraham Lincoln

[MemphisTiger]

3. Excellent quotes, I've saved them for ammunition later

The fundies say that the founding fathers say they FORGOT to add the name Jesus to the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. FORGOT, that is their best excuse. Now, I'm a Christian that does not think this country was founded on Chirstian principles. The whole foundation for the fundies argument is so weak it will fall in on itself.

[Jara sang]

4. Excellent, thanks for the quotes. n/t

[Wright Patman]

2. The Enlightenment

was the philosophical backdrop for the drafters of the Constitution. Some call it the "French" Enlightenment, but we'd better not go there in this era.

The American Revolution was a much more conservative one than happened in France, but it was certainly not Christian at its core.

For most of the "Christian" era, the countries of Europe had believed in the "divine right of kings" (something the BFEE still longs for). That's why it was so significant that George Washington turned down the title of king and only served two terms as president.

If even Washington, who was one of the more unabashedly Christian founding fathers, could see through the dominionist facade of his day, it is clear that those who are attempting to rewrite history and Christianity into the U.S. Constitution are dead wrong.

This does not mean they will not keep trying, though. The Constitution is in tatters anyhow, so it is difficult to say what it means for anyone anymore.

[Jara sang]

5. Indeed, bloodlines are very important to the elite.

The Bush's can trace their bloodline back to English royalty. Of course they don't do that in public. Bush is a regular Texas Joe who clears brush,:spray: and who you could go and have a beer with.:sarcasm:

[oscar111]

6. Founding Fathers irrelevant: every idea must stand on its merits today

if an idea is good, support it.

if bad, it falls.

Let not Founding Fathers of centuries past, put a box around your thoughts.

Founding Fathers are irrelevant. Ideas are relevant, and must stand up to today's tests of worth.

Test: does the idea reduce overall human suffering?

[BiggJawn]

7. "DING!" We have a winnah, folks!

"Christian Identity" leaves the same sour taste in my mouth, too.

People confuse our "Founding Fathers" with those Zealots who stumbled ashore in Plymouth 150 years earlier.

[BOSSHOG]

8. "Heritage not Hate"

A very popular bumper sticker in the South. The words are displayed over the Confederate Flag. Yes Christian Heritage-White Power, No difference; especially since it is espoused by a very ignorant segment of the population who are easily manipulated.

The Constitution also does not define marriage or ban homosexuals from getting married.

[noonwitch]

9. The term itself doesn't bother me, but the actions of those using it does

Our nation does have a "christian heritage", to some degree. The history of the various people who came here to practice their religion in peace, like the Pilgrims and the Quakers, is a very important part of our history, as is the more negative aspects of religion in this country, like the Salemn Witch Trials. The various religious movements that have flourished because of our freedom of religion, christian and otherwise, should be recognized and discussed as part of american history.

But to claim that this nation was founded as a christian nation means believing that the intentions of some of the colonial settlers supercede those of the people who fought for independence 150 years later to establish this nation and it's constitution. That is the only way to make a claim that this is a "christian nation", because the constitution is clear that it is neutral on the subject, yet protective of all people's rights to practice their religion in peace.

[gordianot]

10. NPR had a very good piece on this, this morning.

Yes, there are groups trying to rewrite history from a Protestant Christian viewpoint. Not necessarily a "White Power" position, even though I see how that could be used by these groups. The way I see it from reading, the framers of our Constitution were very neutral (did not overtly interject their religious beliefs) and avoided the idea of a State religion. NPR ended the piece with that viewpoint, pointing out that among the busts of law givers in the Supreme Court (Moses and Jesus) were not included.

Jesus himself very effectively pointed this out when he referenced whose bust "Caesar" was on coinage of his day. Sounds to me that he personally distinguished (by implication) a line between Church and State. If you read his teachings that survived there are several references to law.