Is being in the military, and being a Liberal bad?

[true_notes]

It's a question that has been plagueing me for 3 or 4 years now. I joined out of desperation, no money for college, no jobs in town, and no hope for me to make something of myself, other than a junky.

I DID NOT JOIN because I agreed with *'s policies. As a matter of fact, I hate that he's under the people I have to defend, but it's my job and I do it with pride and honor for my fellow Americans. I love America, but hate people who wrong such a great place, with great people. I also have strong discord for those who plunder the Earth.

I began to educate myself here. I've become smart, independent, and very very intuative in my ways. I have a set standards of beliefs, and I am a proud liberal. NOW, the paradox that has been hindering me lately.

Most liberals, such as myself, are pacifists. I would not harm a soul. I'm Buddhist, and it is almost natural for me to have compassion for others. But it is my job to help a war machine, and I feel very strange by helping kill, but not actually having blood on my hands.

I can't stand to be sterotyped as a Bushloving flag fanatic, when all I really want to do is serve my country, and better myself with the experience I will need to get along in life. So.. Do you think I am doing my cause a wrong by being in, or am I bettering the cause...our cause, for the betterment of humanity.

[Oreo]

1. I think that's what the Right wants you to think

In my opinion, anybody in the military is serving their country no matter what their beliefs are.

The right doesn't own the flag or the bible any more than they own the military. They just want you to think it's theirs

[FreedomAngel82]

12. Exactly

The people in the military aren't going along with Bush because they like him and/or his policies. I'm sure some people in the military do and that's their right, but not everybody is that way. I understand they're just doing their job and Bush is the one who's abusing them. I could never be in the military because I wouldn't want to risk having to murder somebody. I just couldn't do it but like in the orginial post a lot of people join the military for a job, college, or just for more experience in the world and then Bush and his neocon nazi buddies come along and are doing what they're doing.

[Last Lemming]

2. Hey, I'm right there with you

I'm a civilian providing medical care to military personel and dependents. I am the sole liberal in the entire state. It's a strange disconnect though. I come in every day with the latest body count. I can't stand to think we've sent these guys off on such a fools errand. My coworkers shrug it off as the cost of doing business. It's been noted here many times but I will note it again with the specifics of those I work with. many are retired military. None have kids (and they are the right demographics) in the military. One pro-war nurse states--military is for people who can do that kind of stuff Here 20 year old son is an unemployed chef!

Keep it up--we've got to infilitrate and spread reason where ever we can.

[seabeyond]

6. hey wait, are you really suggesting you are the ONLY liberal

in a WHOLE STATE. LOL LOL LOL. for real. the only. what state is this. ah hahahah

i have madethe declaration i am the only liberal in panhandle of texas, i surely dont presume i am the only one in the WHOLE state of texas

that is funny

[comsymp]

9. In LL's defense

Living that close to PI, I can easily believe that it seems like you're the only Lib.

[seabeyond]

18. i hear ya, just teasing n/t

[Last Lemming]

26. I actually wrote about it in a piece

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/1/3

[comsymp]

30. That was deep.

Can't say I actually enjoyed the piece, as it clearly wasn't written to entertain, but it certainly resonated with me. My ex-BIL was a DI down there several years ago and could easily have been one you mentioned.

Having never served, I've always been simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by the psychology of Basic Training - it amazed me to witness the change in friends and family members between the time they left for Basic and the time they came home.

Thanks for posting the link... and thanks for your service, Doc.

[Last Lemming]

25. Hey!!

are you doubting my rhetorical exageration?

Actually I believe there are three Democrats in the city of Beaufort, South Carolina. We use a secret sign when we meet so as not to draw attention to ourselves.

[annabanana]

7. I know it must seem like that to you

But there are at least a COUPLE more liberals down in SC,
Here is their home
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=177

You must, in your line of work, see an occasional instance where the pain is not justified by the "gain" overseas. Is there ANY discussion of why we're over there or how we got there?

[TahitiNut]

3. "Virtue is its own reward."

If one expects a reward, even acclaim, it's not virtue.

That said, there is no uniformity of opinion regarding military service, even on DU. I personally believe national service, in some form, should be universally obligatory. Democracy is all about participation and not at all about "let George do it."

As a veteran with substantial experience with the military, I can say it's a "soul stealer" - a subordination of one's self to authority under the increasingly eroding assumption that The People of the United States accept some overall responsibility for what their government does in their name. Much of the sense of betrayal many Vietnam Veterans felt upon return was the realization that they assumed too much. It has taken us a long time to realize this. Some lessons seem to require relearning.

[bryant69]

4. I have a friend in the national guard

He commented that in his unit all the white guys with two exceptions (one being himself) were for Bush and all the black guys were for Kerry.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[true_notes]

8. I campaigned for Kerry here...

And got 10 guys in my division to vote blue. I felt proud, I had educated 10 good friends, and they accepted the truth. Thanks to Mr. Moore's 9/11, a lot of our military over here disbanded from *'s scheme.

This can be bad sometimes, though. Once you loose support in your leadership, your leadership looses support in you. I'm a lone gunman here now, since my friends are now in the Sandbox. I'm still promoting my agenda, while being careful enough to be decisive about what I say. Bashing the Emperor(sarcasm) will get you in serious trouble in ranks.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[true_notes]

10. It's called Opression, ted

when there is NOTHING, but pushing drugs, and working in the corn fields, you must take it upon yourself. Some of the world's most influential Liberals came out of military service, and most were in the same position I'm in, poor and looking for improvement.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiCoup2K4]

37. Welcome to DU, ted.

Enjoy your visit

4....3....2.....1.....

[crispini]

11. I think that you can be a liberal and be in the military.

There are many liberals who have served their country well.

But as far as being a Buddhist and being in the military, I can see where you might be having some ethical dilemmas, especially with what I would consider the unjust nature of the current war. I would examine the historical and philosophical roots of the philosophy you espouse, with regards to war. There are variants of Buddhism which have been more accepting towards war but I tend to view them with a suspicious eye.

Good luck on your journey. It's an interesting one, to be sure. :hug:

[true_notes]

13. Thanks :) n/t

[atreides1]

14. As an American

And a former soldier, you're not doing this for me kid!!!!

Once America started this war of aggression it lost its greatness, and those that support the war, do it out of a sense of blind loyalty, the same way that German civilians did, the same way that
another generation of Americans did when it was fought in a place called Vietnam.

In my opinion you're not defending me, you're assisting this administration with it's plans to take away our freedoms. One day all of you will have to decide, to either truly defend this country not only from its' foreign enemies but from our domestic enemies as well.

It doesn't matter if you're directly involved or not, you have blood on your hands, and you will never be able to wash it off. You do your
"job" and convince yourself that it is right and noble. There is nothing noble about helping to kill other people, especially when your cause is based on lies. Hitler lied about Poland, before attacking that country, and the German military thought they too were
defending their country, Bush lied about Iraq, and the US military believes that it is defending the United States.

You're not, you're killing people, and it makes little difference if you're dropping the bombs or pulling the triggers, or if you're just humping ammo in the rear. There is as much blood on your hands as there is on the hands of those facing the insurgents.

I'm sorry that I couldn't make you fell better, but the truth sometimes is a very painful thing, as is reality.

Stay safe, and I hope and pray that you get home to your family soon.

Sergeant G.C. Gordon
US Army 1978-1991
Operation Desert Storm

[true_notes]

19. Hey Sarge,

Good Points,

The military washes our brains, and I realize that. This is evident through the language, and mannerisms that the military uses. But you, and I know both know, Sarge, that some of the best damned leaders, men, and humans are out here with us, because of either A:)Blind pride, as you mentioned, or B:)Coersion. It's that simple. That's what it boils down to.

I understand blood on my hands, and you as a groundpounder, I'm sure, does to moreso than I. I'm just a guy looking for answers in life, and yes your post made me feel better, because I like seeing both sides of the specrum.

Thanks Sarge and Take it Easy (I go home on leave next month!)

[retnavyliberal]

36. I disagree with the E-5 (I will not call him Sargent after that response)

I am a Retired Navy Chief and frankly I am appalled at his response to you. First, I want to thank you for your service. I know how hard it is to be a liberal in the military, however, I can not think of a place where a liberal is more needed. Many of the young men that are in the service have not yet formed political opinions. You and people like you have a chance to expose them to other ideals. The importance of that can not be measured.

I get so mad when I see people put down members of the military because they continue to do their jobs. I have to assume that you realize that if they refuse they will be tried under the UCMJ as criminals and risk jail? Now I know that there have been a handful of protesters detained by the police, but how many of you are risking years in prison standing up for your principles. The fact of the matter is this. No matter what we may think of the current administration, according to law and the Constitution and the SCOTUS, bush is the president and the commander and chief of the military. A soldier or sailor can not disobey a lawful order, and at this point, it is a lawful order, no matter what we may think of it.

So yes true, it is more then OK for you to serve your country, in fact it is deeply needed.

[true_notes]

39. Hey Chief

Thanks for the support, Navy always sticks together, eh. I couldn't agree more with your post, I guess because we are(were) in the exact same position...Navy,Liberal and Confused.

[tabasco]

35. You make some good points which I respect.

But how about some perspective? You can't condemn every troop for the crimes of the Bush administration. That is not noble or fair, either. Thanks for your service from a fellow vet.

MAJ Tabasco
US Army
1981-1995
(Still IRR and if my luck runs out, I'll be back in uniform again)

[ComerPerro]

16. There's a lot of people on the right and probably some in the military

who will tell you that its bad.

But its not.

You should actually be proud that you are out there while the Bush loyalists sit at home or go to ProtestWarrior events.

[Deep13]

17. JFK did not think so.

Neither did John Kerry, Harry Truman, Theodore Roosevelt (okay, liberal-ish), Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, John Glenn or Wes Clark.

[true_notes]

20. Roger That!

Those guys are simply put...Heroes in my book. I admire JFK so much, as a leader, and as a human. He cared for the nation, and more importantly for the people.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. "Most liberals, such as myself, are pacifists."

While you are certainly liklier to find liberal pacifists than conservative pacifists I believe it is more nuanced than that. Many libertarians are pacifists -- they don't believe in government telling them they have to fight. At the same time, I think the majority of liberals are not pacifists -- most of us recognise that there is a proper place for self-defense and policing, while not supporting war-mongering.

I have been a liberal all my life. I was also a Marine (many years ago) and though I never saw combat, it was always there as a possibilty. Of course, that was when war was thought to be national policy, rather than corporate policy. I don't know that I would sign up today. But I don't regret the time I served. Democracy is a liberal concept, and it is best defended by people who believe in it.

[malmapus]

22. Can find yourself conflicted at times thats for sure but its not bad

I think I was more right leaning when I signed up (unfortunately I was rebelling against my parents who are proud democrats and did raise me better).

But after I went in, and saw more of the world and how other people live. I began to change my views, especially in seeing how our country could stand to have a few improvements of its own when I so blindly thought that it was the best country in the whole dam world.

Just hold true to your beliefs soldier and you will make it through, I did.

Spec. J.S.Pyron
US Army 91-95
Operation Restore / Continue Hope
Operation Restore Democracy

EDIT for my really bad spelling lol

[IrateCitizen]

23. Hey true_notes -- you might be interested in the following site...

http://www.peace-out.com

Being a liberal and being in the military are not incompatible, but it sure as hell can be a hard tightrope walk. I served as an officer in the Army Reserve for 8 years total, after attending school on an Army ROTC scholarship and receiving a commission as a 2LT.

I performed well during my time, but never really fit in with military culture -- ESPECIALLY officer culture, which tends overwhelmingly right-wing. I really began to develop difficulties reconciling my service when I became involved as an activist on trade issues, and began to see the links between economic exploitation, oppression and militarism. I realized that my serving in the military was actually being part of a system that I saw as violating pretty much every ideal that had compelled me to join in the first place.

Our national response to 9/11 only served to confirm my deepest misgivings about the government I was serving (I don't believe I was ever really serving the American people in an appreciable way). When all the rhetoric about Iraq started heating up, I realized I had the choice of either participating in a war I deemed wholly unjust and completely immoral, or resisting. I chose the latter, filed for classification as a conscientious objector, and told my battalion commander that if I was ordered to deploy I would refuse and face court-martial.

I was discharged on 01 SEP 2004 for turning down promotion to CPT for the 2nd time, with my claim still unresolved after almost 2 years. Since then, I've helped found the group at the above-mentioned website.

I don't know where you're at right now, personally-speaking, but I wish you all the best and hope you are able to reconcile what you are participating in with your personal beliefs. For me, the day I received my discharge was the first day I truly felt free in my adult life, after having been in the military either as a cadet or officer for 13 years.

[spuddonna]

24. There is nothing dishonorable in what you are doing...

Being in the military is an honorable choice.

You are defending others, and putting your life on the line for your country and citizens. You deserve nothing but respect.

The ignoble thing here is how this administration has used our military to further their pocketbooks, and sphere of influence. The blood is on the hands on Bush and all his cronies who decided they wanted to invade Iraq when they KNEW there was no connection to 9/11...

I am against war. But if someone attacks my family, I will fight back.

Actually, now that I think about it, how different is what you are doing (as a pacifist) from working for a huge company like General Dynamics that builds the machines that are strictly designed to be used to kill?

I guess what I'm saying is that you are not alone in your conflict to balance what is right, and how you can survive in our society! :)

Did that make sense?

[DanCa]

27. Dont label yourself

I couldnt enlist because I couldn't touch a rifle. And now my hands shake so bad that the safest place too stand is where I shoot. :) (A sniper with parkinson's would be scary eh :) ) Anyhow I just want to let you know that there are plenty of liberals and democrats who served in the army.
My physical therapy teacher Mario is one, and so George Simms at my church group is a proud liberal military person. And then there is Genereal Clark. Mike Malloy told a person once on his show that he loves to shoot things up. I would say this please just be true to yourself and your principles and dont worry what you other people think.
I am a liberal christian and I know what your going through. We type busters have got to stick together. And true thank you for serving this country of ours. *salutations*

[Vektor]

28. No. The right does not "own" patriotism. It's not "their" military.

They'll have you think the military is pro-right wing, and the right wing is pro-military.

That's not entirely true. Not when you look closely.

The right is pro-WAR but not pro-soldier. It's the Liberals that are scrambling to get more benefits for military families, more supplies for the troops - it's the Liberals that look out for the PEOPLE behind the uniform. The U.S. military is, and always has been, made up of MANY hard working, proud, Liberal Democrats, my Dad being one of them.

You stated that you joined out of financial need, primarily. You also stated that you loved and honored America. You said what you really wanted to do was serve your country - AND were a proud Liberal.
That makes you just right in my book.

Thank you for your service.

[true_notes]

31. Couldn't agree more.

Of all the posts here, you nailed how I feel right on the head.

[Vektor]

32. I'm glad...

...hang in there. You'll sort it out. :-)

[mmonk]

29. How could it be bad?

We're SUPPOSED to be a liberal democracy.

[TimeChaser]

33. I know a lot of left-leaning..

... high school students for whom the military is the only option. As always, love the warrior, hate the war. Or better yet, hate the administration that started the war for their own benefit.

[tabasco]

34. It is highly honorable to serve in the military.

Don't let the utopians get you down. We all hope that someday a military will not be necessary, but that day is unfortunately far and long away. Thank you for your military service.

Bush has betrayed the military. Help spread the word.

I served for 12 years active and still in the reserves (inactive but I'm expecting a letter in the mail). I'm very proud of my service and nobody can detract from it. I still love the Army but hate what the Bush administration has done to it. They have installed yes-men with no moral courage at the highest levels. It will take a long time for our military to be restored after this terrible, criminal administration.

on edit: I served mostly in infantry units. In those infantry units, it seemed there were equal numbers of liberals/freepers. In other units, however, it seemed like it was all freepers.

Of course you can be a liberal in the military. Many of our greatest military heores were liberals. Stand up for your beliefs and do not let any liberal or republican put you down !

[amazona]

38. how can it be bad?

In an ideal world, all who served would have ideals and would be looking to improve themselves in the world. Joining for "hoping to make something of myself" is looking to improve yourself and that is the first step toward improving the world. How can that be wrong?

We live in the world, and we need a strong defense. We will always need our warriors. We will always need well-trained people in the art of war and defense. It is the job of "we the people" to try to press our leaders to use our warriors wisely.

I don't think being a soldier, or support for a soldier, is wrong by definition. You are doing the best you can. We all have to start from where we started from.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Qanisqineq]

40. Absolutely not. My husband is a soldier and a liberal

and most of the soldiers we know are liberals or liberal-leaning. Don't let them tell you that you have to be a republican.

Look at this list and see how many democrats have served:

http://www.wegoted.com/whoserved.html

BTW, pay close attention to the republican list -- under most of those names it says "did not serve"

[maxrandb]

41. Your Assumptions and Premise is All Wrong!

I am an active duty Naval Officer who "pulled myself up by the bootstraps" from E1. Advanced through the Chief Petty Officer rank and earned a commission through the LDO/CWO Program. I am what you may have heard called a "Mustang". I am also a proud "bleeding heart" liberal.

A better question for you to ask would be "Why do so many leading conservatives that love war, and supposedly 'Support the Troops', have so little experience as a 'troop'"?

Our country, and particularly our Democratic Party, has a rich tradition of service in the military. Somehow, we have allowed the Repukes to snatch that tradition of service away from us. You need look no further than the last election to see what I am talking about.

One candidate was wounded in battle for this country. One candidate still carried shrapnel that was fired in anger in his body. One candidate earned 3 Purple Hearts and a Silver Star (our 5th highest award for bravery).

Somehow this candidate's military service was ranked lower than a candidate the avoided real combat by pulling strings to get into a "non-combat" National Guard position, and then failed to even fulfill his obligations in that position.

Another candidate was confined to a wheelchair after leaving an arm and two legs in a foreign country. Yet, despite this supreme sacrifice, he was labeled a "traitor and a wimp".

No True Notes, there is nothing wrong with being a liberal and serving in the military. It's our tradition.

I will grant you that there are more in the military that vote Repuke, but I argue that that is because we Democrats have allowed the right wing to steal the word "Patriot" and twist it to meet their definition.

Democrats need to loudly and proudly reclaim that word, and once again make it perfectly acceptable to wear the uniform of this country while you pull the "D" lever in the voting booth. There are more of us "Blue" veterans than you might think.

Liberals are making the ultimate sacrifice today, as they always have. Unlike the "leadership" of the Repuke Party, we do more than simply pay "lip service" to the term "Patriot"...we live it!

[BOSSHOG]

42. Roger that sir

Retired CPO, and a damn proud liberal here. Thank you for an outstandingn post. I truly do sit back and watch in amazement as conservatives in this country blather on about their patriotism while sacrificing nothing for their country. I've been called a coward who hates our country because I voted for John Kerry. I've been using the Vet card more and more and it is so sweet when a pencil dick redneck who questions my patriotism gets my retiree ID card and my CPO coin shoved in his face. Its happened on more than one occasion and each time its by some strapping young yahoo who never served a day in uniform in his life.

Against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC

[Coexist]

43. well said