remember the guy who wanted to clone Jesus with DNA from the 'Shroud'?

[mopaul]

it's for real, i remember it was about 8 years or so ago, and it even spawned a sci fi t.v. movie with the same premise, but with disastrous results.

there's an actual case of a christian crazy supporting cloning and genetic manipulation to create life. to what purpose? to populate the planet with christ clones? even if you could, the offspring would have no guarantee of growing up to be our messiah.

the original nut who wanted to do this was quite serious, and had requested dna from the shroud of turin, assuming it really is the burial cloth of christ. his purpose was supposedly to hasten the return of christ, even if it had to be done genetically.

"Jurrasic Jesus"

what a weird thought process

[Hand]

1. HA! Let him do it.

Then when it turns out the guy wasn't the Son of God, but just a plain old lowlife unrepentant rapist/murderer/thief... :evilgrin:

[EVDebs]

2. 2000 year old DNA ? I think scientifically impossible...comments ?

[XOKCowboy]

3. Jurrassic Jesus!!

I love it. :)

[sojourner]

20. kick

[Gman]

4. They're always looking for ways to force God to do what they want

when they want; on their own time table rather than God's. Whether or not you believe in a second coming or not (or even the first), you've got to agree they are terribly presumptious to impose they're will and their time table on God.

[ContraBass Black]

5. Actually, the Klingons on Star Trek did this.

Khaless the Unforgettable returned from Sto 'Vo 'Kor when the scientists developed the technology to clone him. Some flocked to follow him. Others did not. When his origins were discovered, chaos ensued.

Just a thought.

[mopaul]

7. some research

http://www.pip.com.au/~paceman/TURIN%20SHROUD.html

damn klingons! and the ferengies, selling off pieces of the dead!

[racaulk]

17. Very interesting

I don't remember seeing that. Did you see that in a Star Trek episode, or did you read it in a book? Could you provide more details?

I was always impressed in how the Star Trek writers gave the characters very strong ethical dilemmas to face, particularly in Voyager and Enterprise. IMHO, some of the best episodes focused on issues of civil rights, genocide, cloning, etc. In Enterprise, it was uncanny the number of parallels between the conflict with the Xindi and in our current "War on Terror."

[JHB]

30. "The Rightful Heir", Season 6 of TNG

From:
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TNG/episode/68604.html

Synopsis


When Worf fails to report for duty, Riker goes to his quarters to investigate, finding the Klingon entranced in a ceremonial ritual, oblivious to everything and everyone until Riker's interruption. Concerned because of Worf's developing pattern of sub-par performance, Picard visits him in his quarters. Worf explains that his recent experience in the Carraya sector — from which he brought back some Klingon children — has left him empty inside. He has been trying to summon a vision of Kahless — the greatest of Klingon warriors, who united his people many centuries ago, and promised to one day return and lead them again. Picard grants him leave to visit the planet Boreth, where the Followers of Kahless wait for their leader's return. Worf attempts his ritual again in the ceremonial lava caves. This time, however, a sudden swirl of smoke and light reveals Kahless. Kahless is real — and he has returned!
Worf and the other Klingons, stunned and amazed, follow Kahless into the temple. Koroth doubts it is truly the legend returned, but Kahless then tells them the story of how the Klingon bat'leth sword was forged — a secret that was kept only with the High Clerics in order for them to verify Kahless's existence if he ever came back. This is proof enough for all present except Worf, who later scans Kahless with a tricorder, only to see that the being really is a Klingon.

Kahless and Worf talk privately about the new empire that will form, but Worf discovers some flaws in his hero — Kahless doesn't remember the taste of Klingon Warnog, or what existence is like in the Klingon afterlife known as Sto-Vo-Kor. Later, Worf and Gowron argue over the situation, with Gowron refusing to believe this is nothing more than an elaborate ploy by Koroth and his allies to seize power over the empire, but Worf implores him to open his heart and have faith that this is true. Only Worf's intervention stops Gowron from killing the warrior, but the moment has put doubt in the minds of all.

His heart filled with anger, Worf threatens Koroth later, making him reveal the truth. He and Torin used an organic sample of the original Kahless to create a clone, one in which they imprinted "memories" so even the clone would believe. But Koroth says they still need Kahless — in any form — to help bring together an empire that suffers under Gowron's corruption. Much to Koroth's objection, Worf reveals the truth about Kahless to Gowron, but also expresses the sentiment that their people need a moral leader, someone in whom the Klingons want to believe, to put their faith, and around whom they can rally. Worf suggests that the clone Kahless be made Emperor. Gowron would continue to run the High Council, but Kahless would guide the people and help return them to the honorable ways of long ago. Gowron is given no choice but to go along with this plan. A new era begins, but Worf is still feeling empty, until the clone Kahless tells him it doesn't matter whether or not the original returns, as long as they remember the words he left behind and follow his teachings.

[racaulk]

38. Thank you! n/t

[ContraBass Black]

35. I didn't like the Xindi story line or other Enterprise episodes because

They mirrored current events far too obviously and heavy-handedly. I like my TV to have a point, but I don't like to be beaten over the head with it by a clumsy writer.

TNG, DS9, and Voyager were far more subtle, and their poignancy is multiplied because they were written long before the current messes. The "Witch Hunt" episode of TNG is especially relevant.

[ContraBass Black]

42. That Episode is called "The Drumhead" and is on now.

[hippiechick]

6. I read a really cool book awhile back that postulates ..

... that the image on the Shroud is actually Jacques DeMolay, one of the most prominent early Masons/Templars; who was tortured (but did not die) in the manner similar to the crucifixion to 'make an example of him' ...


The second messiah : Templars, the Turin Shroud and the great secret of freemasonry /
Knight, Christopher

[mopaul]

8. I know the secret de molay handshake. i used to be one

[annabanana]

40. (former Rainbow Girl here)

[dmkinsey]

10. Another theory on the shroud

is that it's a photographic NEGATIVE created by Leonardo DaVinci using a camera obscura and photo sensitive chemicals.
I happen to like this theory,of course it would preclude any messianic DNA

[hippiechick]

16. I heard that one, too ...

... but ran out of time and had to get the book back to the library before I got to the nuts and bolts ... but essentially, it's supposed to BE Da Vinci ? ... and that he also painted 'himself' into some of the 'Biblical' paintings ... sorta like Alfred Hitchcock's popping up as a passerby in his own films.

[AllegroRondo]

37. I saw a show on Discovery Channel about that

and one of their experts was able to recreate the shroud using this technique and technology available in Da Vinci's time.

The actual shroud has slightly different sizes for the image on the front and back, suggesting that he stood at slightly different distances from the camera when the image was made. Also, the face is out of proportion with the body, which suggests that the face was done separately also to try to get more detail.

[LibertyLover]

22. de Molay

Wasn't de Molay burned at the stake by the King of France? If so, that would make getting the shroud impression a bit difficult - crispy critters aren't in good enough shape to make such a good impression.

[mopaul]

23. i guess posing for the shroud was before burning at the stake

[hippiechick]

24. Yes, AFTER the supposed 'faux-crucifixion'

... I recommend checking out the book ... :hi:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Books/openframesecondmessiah.html

"Whilst researching the origins of Freemasonry Chris Knight and I happened on the circumstances surrounding the creation of the shroud. There is no mystery left to explain. It was created accidentally by an overzealous torturer acting on behalf of a bankrupt king desperately trying to prove a charge of heresy against the leader of an extremely rich order of knighthood. The king succeeded and seized all the Order's assets on the basis of a forced confession.

That confession was extracted in Paris on the morning of Friday 13th Oct. 1307 by Chief Inquisitor Imbert of the Paris Inquisition, who tortured the Grand Master of the Knights Templar using a re-enactment of the crucifixion of Jesus. The Master had been accused of mocking the resurrection of Jesus and so Imbert decided crucifixion was an appropriate form of torture. The Paris Inquisition at that time are well known for torturing heretics by nailing them to posts. The crucifixion is accurate because Imbert knew his bible.

The Templars used a linen shroud in their ritual practices. When the Grand Master was taken down, not dead but in a state of collapse, and placed in a soft bed to recover he was wrapped in a fourteen foot long Templar ceremonial shroud as a last ironic touch. (Mark 15:44-46) The lactic acid rich blood he was soaked in gave rise to singlets of oxygen which created an image known as a Volckringer pattern. This type of image requires only a brief exposure to the subject (a few hours) and then develops on the surface of the cloth over tens of years by a process well known to science, called auto-oxidation, provided it is kept away from light but well ventilated. "


edited for link

[mopaul]

25. I played jaques de molay in a re-enactment of his burning at the stake

had to memorize tons of pages of ritual and dialogue and was trussed up in chains and thrown roughly to the floor to deliver my diatribe.

weird relgious overtones to the masonic order.

i respect the shriner's though.

[hippiechick]

26. Ok, WTFever, dude ...

:eyes:

[mopaul]

28. i ain't arguing with ya

or disagreeing either. looks like an interesting read

[gratuitous]

9. Gee, the living Christ isn't sufficient for some?

That's a pretty jarring disconnect between profession of faith and actual conduct.

[Lerkfish]

11. well, weird on another level as well...

since there would be no reason to assume genetics had anything to do with the divinity of Christ. If someone thought that cloning his DNA would replicate his abilities, that would be counter to why he was able to work miracles in the first place. It would be a bizarre contradiction.

[BringEmOn]

12. So this Jesus clone starts talking about peace and feeding the poor...

then what? Gitmo?

[jim3775]

13. The shroud was painted in 1389

"Historically, the Shroud of Turin is one of some forty reputed burial cloths of Jesus, although it is the only one to bear the apparent imprints and bloodstains of a crucified man. Religious critics have long noted that the Turin shroud is incompatible with the bible, which describes multiple burial wrappings, including a separate “napkin” that covered Jesus’ face (John 20:5–7).

The Turin cloth first appeared in north-central France in the mid-fourteenth century. At that time the local bishop uncovered an artist who confessed he had “cunningly painted” the image. Subsequently, in 1389, Pope Clement VII officially declared the shroud to be only a painted “representation.”

Years later, this finding was conveniently forgotten by the granddaughter of the original owner. She sold it to the House of Savoy, which later became the Italian monarchy. Eventually the cloth was transferred to Turin. In 1983 Italy’s exiled king died, bequeathing the shroud to the Vatican.

The shroud’s modern history has confirmed the assessment of the skeptical bishop and Pope Clement. Forensic tests of the “blood” — which has remained suspiciously bright red — were consistently negative, and in 1980 renowned microanalyst Walter C. McCrone determined that the image was composed of red ocher and vermilion tempera paint.

Finally in 1988 the cloth was radiocarbon dated by three independent labs using accelerator mass spectrometry. The resulting age span of circa 1260–1390 was given added credibility by correct dates obtained from a variety of control swatches, including Cleopatra’s mummy wrapping.

These findings are mutually supportive. The tempera paint indicates the image is the work of an artist, which in turn is supported by the bishop’s claim that an artist confessed, as well as by the prior lack of historical record. The radiocarbon date is consistent with the time of the reported artist’s confession. And so on."

From The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal

[smoogatz]

19. Great post. So the shroud was painted w/ tempera

which contains egg. Which means that if you cloned the DNA from the shroud and implanted the zygote in (presumably) a virgin, she'd give birth to the Jesus Chicken.

[bleedingheart]

21. So it would be like cloning Sherwin Williams...

bwahahahahaha...

sorry bad joke...

[Connie_Corleone]

14. Too bad Jesus isn't the one on the shroud. n/t

[tanyev]

15. Bring it on.

Jesus had no problem denouncing Pharisees and hypocrites 2000 years ago, and I suspect he would pick right up where he left off.

[smoogatz]

18. The shroud was painted

The image contains iron oxide, which is a pigment commonly used by renaissence painters to make (you guessed it) red paint. I forget the exact date, but I think it's around 1350 a.d. It's a fake--but a truly inspired one.

[aikidoodler]

32. Jesus was only 2.5D

Not only was it painted, it wasn't even "rubbed off" on an actual 3D human form. If you wrap a cloth around a human head and rub the cloth surface with a pigment of some sort (similar to the process that is used in a tombstone rubbing with paper and charcoal) the resulting image when the cloth is laid out flat is an oddly wide representation of the head with the ears, for instance, spaced roughly 14 or 15 inches apart.
The image of the head on the shroud is much narrower, suggesting that the rubbing was made off a much flatter surface like a bas-relief sculpture.

**edited because I just can't leave things alone**

[BurtWorm]

27. You how clones are twins? What if he the clone is Jesus's evil twin?

:think:

[mopaul]

29. you mean, 'Skippy'?

[BurtWorm]

31. Good lord, not Skippy Christ!

"Skippy, you put those thorns down and stop torturing your brother this instant!"

[catzies]

39. Snarf! *wipes spit off monitor*

Oh man, that's funny...

[BurtWorm]

41. I have got to stop doing jello shots first thing in the morning.

:wow:

[Ioo]

33. Genesis Code - By John Case

Great Book!

[Quixote1818]

34. He wants to clone the red paint on she shroud????

nt

[Lisa0825]

36. There was an episode of either the Twilight Zone or Outer Limits

about this.

They implied that perhaps (due to paranormal phenomena occuring during the pregnancy) Jesus had been soomeone with extreme powers of a paranormal kind, as opposed to being the son of God. The chosen "Mary and Joseph" were not aware that their IVF baby was supposed to be Jesus, until the very end of the pregnancy. They escaped, had the baby in a barn, and went on the run. Several other couples were also implanted with "Jesus" embryos.