Clark's Schedule For The Last Day of the Quarter Says It All.

[stickdog]

http://www.clark04.com/schedule/

Tuesday, September 30 (Washington, DC)

4:30 p.m.: Meets with members of Congress on Capitol Hill (428 New Jersey Avenue, SE, Washington, DC). The meeting is closed to press.


Clark in DC for closed door meeting with Party insiders.


****


http://www.clark04.com/action/001/

Call to Action!

Help General Clark "Take the Hill!"

As our campaign to propel General Clark into the White House in 2004 gains momentum, members of the Clark Corps, General Clark's most committed grassroots supporters, are reaching out to Members of Congress for their support and endorsement. If you are in the DC area, please join us on Tuesday to gather and then walk to congressional offices of uncommitted Democratic Senators and Representatives, where we will hand-deliver letters asking them to endorse General Clark. We hope that as many of you as possible can take part in this unprecedented event to help spread the message about General Clark to Congress and "Take the Hill!"

WHAT: The Clark Corps personally delivering letters and CLARK bars to the offices of uncommitted Democrats in the House and Senate, asking for their support of General Clark's candidacy

WHEN: Tuesday, September 30th, at 11:45 a.m.

WHERE: Please meet at the park across the street from the Longworth House Office Building, on C Street between South Capitol Street and New Jersey Avenue


While Dean's grassroots supporters knock on doors and write letters to Iowa and NH voters, Clark's grassroots supporters lobby Washington insiders.

[dkf]

1. Figures

Who is surprised by this?

Not I.

[Jim Sagle]

3. I guess we won't be allowed to talk about this much longer.

[tjdee]

34. Yes you will.

The rules don't say you can't be negative.

The rules will say that you can't start a thread that says Clark ain't nothin' but shit.

And, you will be freely able to reply to someone's thread just how full of shit you think Clark is. The rules only apply to starting threads.

[Dookus]

2. and I'm sure...

Dean has never met with any congressional "insiders".

This story doesn't "say it all". In fact, it says nothing beyond the fact that Clark is running a campaign.

[stickdog]

5. It says A LOT about the KIND of campaign Clark is running.

It's the last day of the fundraising quarter and he spends it meeting with party insiders behind closed doors?

[Dookus]

6. *shrug*

I honestly don't see the issue.

And you can phrase things like "behind closed doors" but I can pretty much assure you that ALL the other dem candidates hold their meetings in rooms with closed doors.

You present it as if it's something nefarious, but it's not. Kerry, Dean, Kucinich, Edwards, et. al., have meetings "behind closed doors".

And as I said below.... being the last day of the fundraising quarter is irrelevant.

[Brian Sweat]

41. You have to want it.

[Capn Sunshine]

113. On the other hand....

Howard Dean sends his regards to "all his friends at DU, those guys are great " and will appear tonite at a public fundraiser party at the Gorgeous Art Deco facility in downtown LA, Union Station......it will be a great scene :)

Oh, and last night he was at the West LA home of a supporter who hosted a "Dean house party"

[Kahuna]

29. Just heard a bit on CSPAN WJ about Dean begging..

Harold Ford, Sr. for support. What an ego this guy has. :crazy:

[Dookus]

4. in addition....

being the last day of the quarter is totally irrelevant, unless one is concerned about financial reporting.

[stickdog]

7. Well, it's sure damn relevant to every other candidate.

But I guess if you're the establishment's chosen Dean stopper, it's more important to strategize with Washington insiders than it is to meet people, raise money and/or announce your stances on any issues.

[Dookus]

9. honestly...

can you tell me that Dean has never met with congresspeople? I think you're trying to fit some silly facts into your preconceptions about Clark.

Clark is meeting people, raising money, and announcing his stances on issues. He's not obligated to do it on YOUR timetable. If he fails to do any of those things, he won't get the nomination, so you need not fear.

[stickdog]

12. I'm commenting on the contrast in emphasis.

If you want to ignore it, you can.

If you want to dismiss it as unimportant, you can.

But Dean will be beating the bushes all through Southern California to raise more than a $1,000,000 to beat the hell out of a Bush tommorow.

Meanwhile, Clark has one event planned behind closed doors in DC with DC insiders.

[Dookus]

14. ok...

I still don't see the importance.

You haven't addressed my much-asked question:

Has Dean never met with congressional leaders?

Has Dean never had a meeting "behind closed doors"?

And if Clark spent tomorrow raising funds, would you not object?

[stickdog]

16. OK. Here's Clark-by-numbers for the artistically impaired.

Clark is the last great inside-the-beltway establishment hope of derailing Dean's record breaking insurgent grassroots campaign.

Therefore, I find Clark's choice of activities today -- a day ALL OTHER CANDIDATES recognize as extremely important for their profile and fundraising efforts -- meaningfully symbolic of his entire candidacy.

DC-centric, insider-centric, issue-free and regular people-impaired.

You don't think the day has any significance. I appreciate your POV, but I do.

[Kahuna]

33. As a Clark supporter, I appreciate your concern...

but I don't think it's warranted. Time will tell.

[Eloriel]

139. Actually, time has already told. That's the point. n/t

[SWPAdem]

148. Thanks

I'll be sure to ignore this crap.

[Walt Starr]

37. Yeah, I was almost sucked into the Clark trap

I was actually a Clark supporter for a few days, until the truth about his past started coming out on these boards.

Unfortunately, those days will probably be long gone as of tomorrow afternoon...

[Eloriel]

140. And I have to tell you, Walt,

I was personally crushed to see you, of all people, supporting Clark. I'm really glad you came to your senses, so to speak. REALLY relieved.

Eloriel

[catforclark2004]

156. Clark Looks for Endorsements on Capitol Hill /Wshgtn Post

He's going to talk to Congress persons to rally endorsements...it's not a secret! You guys are willing to read the negative into anything! It only shows desperation!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24927-2003Sep30.html
Clark Looks for Endorsements on Capitol Hill

By Juliet Eilperin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 1, 2003; Page A11

Presidential candidate Wesley K. Clark made a pitch to more than 60 House Democrats yesterday, trying to win over their support for his fledgling candidacy.

The enthusiastic reception Clark received -- several lawmakers left the meeting saying they were close to endorsing the former NATO commander --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24927-2003Sep30.html

[stickdog]

160. Whoa!

And I was so sure he was sacrificing virgins!

[Mz Pip]

103. Clark meets with Congressmen

for one day.

Dean has the records of his Governorship sealed.

Geez, you're grasping at straws.

I would suspect that many of those Congressmen will be more than happy to talk about the meeting with Clark at the end of the day. :crazy:

MzPip
:dem:

[Democat]

8. Every single person seriously running meets with party insiders regularly!

If they don't, they are idiots and they have no chance of winning.

This isn't some little game, we have to beat Bush in 2004. Wake up and face reality!

[stickdog]

10. As their ONLY event on the last day of a fund raising quarter? (NT)

[Dookus]

11. I really don't get the importance of...

the last day of the fundraising quarter.

Can you explain?

[stickdog]

13. Sure

[Dookus]

15. not much of an explanation

I'm sorry to say.

If you'd prefer Clark to spend the day fundraising, I suppose that's OK, but I don't believe you wouldn't complain about THAT, either.

Has Dean ever met with congresspeople?

Has Dean ever had meetings "behind closed doors"?

I don't really care about the answers to those questions (mainly because I know the answer is YES!), but I'm just trying to point out that it's sorta silly to try to attack Clark for engaging in behavior that every other Democratic candidate engages in.

[SWPAdem]

149. So, the "best" progressive candidate

is the one that raises the most money?

[grasswire]

17. that's not what this schedule says

General Clark campaigns in Austin, Texas, this morning (Monday), where he will attend a fundraiser at the home of advertising executive Roy Spence.

Clark also greets supporters in Woolridge Park in Austin, and he later speaks at Midwestern State University in Wichita Falls, Texas.

Clark campaigns in D.C. on Tuesday, meeting with congressional members on Capitol Hill.

He campaigns in Los Angeles on Wednesday, attending a fundraiser at producer Norman Lear's house co-hosted by comedian Larry David. He also will campaign with Governor Davis on Wednesday, and possibly appear on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno.

[stickdog]

19. It's EXACTLY what the schedule says but less specific.

Clark campaigns in D.C. on Tuesday, meeting with congressional members on Capitol Hill.

[Clark Can WIN]

32. But I thought your "attack" was based on the fact that it was

oh so important that he was not fundraising today, some kind of crime by your standards apparently, but he is. So what is the big toobaloo here then anyway?

"stickdog (1000+ posts) Tue Sep-30-03 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #8

10. As their ONLY event on the last day of a fund raising quarter? (NT) "

[stickdog]

47. But I thought you could read. (NT)

[Clark Can WIN]

96. But I thought you had a point

You were right. I was wrong. :thumbsup:

[Clark Can WIN]

124. whooooshhhhhhhhhh.............

[knight_of_the_star]

143. Where did you get closed doors from that statement?

I don't see it. I don't see anything about his meeting being closed to the press. You act like it is a crime to meet with members of Congress. Would you be all over my if I went to DC to meet with my Senator? That is what it seems like you are doing.

[gristy]

18. So, would you be happy if Clark had someone from the

press with him at all times? Or just when he meets with other politicians? This is NOT an issue for me.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. Tell you what...

if this is important to you, don't vote for him in the primary.

Me, I'll vote for whoever I damn well choose to, and a closed door meeting with undecided congresscritters seems to be a normal thing for a primary candidate to do, so it won't affect my vote one way or the other.

[OKNancy]

21. If you knew anything about the campaign

you would know that he is looking for endorsements. Just like EVERY other Democratic candidate has done and is doing.

[stickdog]

22. OK, ya got me.

I thought he was sacrificing virgins.

[Justice]

23. Give Me A Break

Not a fair comparison.

This is the beginning of his campaign, he is reaching out to voters and members of congress. He has been in NH, SC, TX and will be in CA and Iowa in coming days, as well as DC. His focus is getting out there - he knows he is not going to get huge $$ in the door by quarter end - and in fact if he doesn't get out there, he won't get money in at all.

I received 4-5 emails between Sunday and Monday from Dean's campaign (Dean, Trippo, Reiner and "President Bartlett come to mind). Is that a little over the top - a little too singularly focused on money? You didn't see me starting a discussion about it. Give me a break.

[LizW]

26. That is exactly the point

You make the comparison perfectly. It's the end of the fundraising quarter and the numbers that come out will be huge. Clark has to come out with big numbers and he's doing it by courting big money. Incumbent members of Congress have the ability to funnel donations to other candidates. (Remember the Richard Shelby scandal where he was shaking down a company to give money to his former aide who was running for Congress?)

Dean's money comes from regular people who donate $50 bucks a month out of their paychecks.

That's a fair contrast to point out.

[Justice]

28. You Missed My Point

My point is that Clark isn't focused on coming out with big numbers right now. Dean is focused on coming out with big numbers because frankly that is why Dean got attention from the media.

Clark may be focused on numbers next quarter, but now he is focused on getting out and meeting people - people in NH, Iowa, TX, SC, and DC. In my view, that is perfectly legitimate.

[GiovanniC]

39. I'm A Regular Person

And I've donated $20.00 from my paycheck to Clark twice.

[Kahuna]

30. If Clark could raise 4 - 5 mil in two weeks, that would exceed...

expectations and be a major news story.

[stickdog]

94. Will he?

And who set his expectation level below Howard Dean's?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

24. What is most disconcerting about this to me is the militaristic tone:

Help General Clark "Take the Hill!"

What, is congress an enemy position that needs to be assaulted? Who has to charge the machine gun nests?

members of the Clark Corps

Is this anything like the Marine Corps? If people can't make it, do they have to do push-ups instead? Or is KP the order of the day?

I'm pretty sure it's just a gimmick, but do we really want another gung-ho, invade 'em all - let god sort 'em out, type of president?

Is his military service the ONLY thing he has got going for him?

[tlb]

25. I'm hostile to Clark but I wouldn't make anything major

out of meeting with the congressmen. As was pointed out above that's something any serious candidate will do.

It's distracting from the real problem anyway. As Dean points out, Clark is a puppet. The strings are being pulled elsewhere. THAT"S what Clark has going for him besides being a general. The DNC/DLC have their tool to fight Dean with.

[Clark Can WIN]

36. I'm glad you realize it's only a gimmick

:eyes: otherwise we would have to wonder about ya!

I DO want a gung ho, progressive, take back the damn White House, take back the Congress, take back the Senate, take back the country, take back the FLAG, Democratic administration that will prosecute the CRIMINALS that are in there now, work on universal health care, continued education THROUGHOUT life, leave anwar alone, work on ZERO foreign energy dependency be expanding alternative CLEAN energy, sign on to the Kyoto accords and restore our credibility in the world community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES! :kick:

[Eloriel]

141. Sounds like you want Dean. n/t

[KoKo]

79. Agree "Take the Hill" is a battle cry! Not very reassuring for those of

us suspicious of the Military at this point because of Iraq Invasion & Rummy!

[Clark Can WIN]

98. Hey Koko.....................

.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.....................................................................
.................. BOO! :scared:

[KittyWampus]

136. Take The Hill Bothers You? Hope You Don't Watch Sports

Cause it is FILLED to overflowing with similiar MILITARISTIC terminology...

Actually politics IS a sport... a BLOOD sport.

Gee, you probably don't like COMEDY either... "I'm going to out and 'knock them dead" or "I killed them last night" or "You slay me".

[catforclark2004]

159. Right now we are at WAR....... if you haven't noticed

Support our Troops, Elect One!

[catforclark2004]

161. Clark can use the Military style if he likes....Dean Can't

You have pushed me to say my first bad thing about Dean.....I am ashamed, but you pushed me to it with your nitpicking.....It only shows that you are "jealous"....and "worried" for your candidate....But remember...this is not a war.

Cause War is Hell

SUPPORT OUR TROUPS, ELECT ONE!

[catforclark2004]

157. Should Clark Supporters do "Bats" instead?

The military style is Clark's...what's wrong with that??????

Support our Troups, Elect One!!!

I'm new in this forum, and I find some of the posts really petty.........

It's not a pretty sight.... appears that the intellectual content is rather low.

[wndycty]

27. About Clark fundraising. . .

-snip-
But in less than two weeks in the race, retired Army Gen. Wesley K. Clark demonstrated he may be able to compete with Dean. Aides said he expects to raise about $2.5 million by midnight tonight, the end of the third quarter.
-snip-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19697-2003Sep29.html

[TLM]

100. And where is that money coming from?

It is from big spending party insiders, who get off one big donation.

I fear Clark's problem will be staying power.

[graham67]

142. Try....

21,000+ online donations.

[WillyBrandt]

145. Some of came from me

And I'm no party insider. And it was two donations, both small. (I'm sure Clark's 31768 meetup members--ever rising--are all party insiders and DLC fatcats as well. Surely.)

[catforclark2004]

158. I gave to the General....and will give more...

And I've never given to any political campaign before!

[ShaneGR]

31. What a surprise, another anti-Clark thread from Stickdog

Gees Stick, Clark must really worry you. I thought Dean was the frontrunner? All of a sudden it's somehow a bad thing for Clark to try and get endorsements?

[zeemike]

35. Well don’t worry

Rules will be in place soon to shut him up.
We can’t have such talk about the one chosen by the DLC to be the next nominee.

[returnable]

40. Please

"We can’t have such talk about the one chosen by the DLC to be the next nominee."

Maybe if some people spent more time propping up their own candidate instead of attacking another, they'd have a little less to worry about.

So much for "shaking up" the system - from where I sit, all the negativity on this forum looks like "political business as usual" to me.

When your candidate is challenged in the polls, attack the opposition's credibility. Yep. That's a real breath of fresh air.

[stickdog]

61. Stating the obvious about Clark is engaging in abhorrent

"negativity."

Yep. Business as usual.

I'm not attacking Clark's credibility. I'm pointing out a contrast in his campaign's emphasis vs. Dean's.

The contrast is that Clark is running a comparatively inside-the-beltway Party insider campaign while Dean is running a comparatively populist campaign.

It's a valid observation backed with interesting current scheduling symbolism.

So stop whining and calling for the penalty flags and deal with the fact that you can't mount the quintessential insider campaign without running the risk of alienating those who don't particularly care for Party insiders.

[dkamin]

133. Stickdog

i'm wavering between Clark and Dean, but your statements, along with some other pro-Dean statements, are making me a little leery of Dean, to be quite honest.

you guys are being ridiculous. your parsing of his email, and attempts to read some sort of motivation into one event, of which the symbolism is, imo, highly dubious, is really really pathetic.

go dean, go clark, go democrats.

[stickdog]

137. How else can we decipher a political cipher?

Sorry, I'm not in a very trusting mood right now.

I've been paying attention for the last 3 years.

[einsteins stein]

102. So, do you think what Clark is doing reflects poorly on his image?

Because, when you accuse someone of an attack on a Clark's credibility, just because that person highlighted Clark's actions, you reveal that you actually believe Clark's actions to be questionable.

Why else would you feel threatened by the question?

You are trying to make this about Deans poll numbers. It's actually about Clark's priorities.

[Clark Can WIN]

42. If his candidate is so great then it should be obvious to all

from his meritorious essays on the many overwhelmingly fine attributes of his candidate. Thank goodness he doesn't pour his energies into trying to tear down our Democratic candidates when George Bush is the real enemy.

[TLM]

112. No he has his Clark Corps tear down dems for him...

Leaving Clark free to Lewinski party insiders for donations...

The problem is that Clark is seeking his support from party insiders and status quo folks, and will be beholden to these same folks as president. Whereas Dean is going to be beholden to the people for support, not the power elite party insiders.


I will be seeing Dean tonight, and maybe talking to him again. Which would be the second time I've had the opportunity to speak with Dean. That's the level of connection tot he people Dean’s campaign has... even an average Joe like me can get a chance to talk to the man who will be president. I'd much prefer the guy that talks to the people, than the guy who is talking with party insiders in hidden meetings.

This is exactly the problem with Clark... Dean is the candidate for the people, Clark is the candidate for the party insiders, DLC, and power elite who want to keep power and control away from the people.

[Clark Can WIN]

129. First of all, the post of mine you are replying to

speaks of the original poster. So the first part of your reply makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Read before you type or try to make yourself clear.

I'm happy you get to see Dean tonight but what makes you think nobody else besides Dean supporters have had an opportunity to meet their candidates INCLUDING Clark? I will be meeting Clark on October 6th and I can't wait. I've read quite a few posts on DU from people who have met Clark. Jesus H. Christ the man just announced on the 17th and every since then he's been running all over the country, walking down streets, going to shops, giving speeches and town hall meetings - - - - his last one in New Hampshire was phenomenal and those were not potted plants he was speaking with.

*scsm* See, that's the level of connection to the people that Clark has........... even an average Joe like me can get a chance to talk to the man WHO WILL be president.

I'm so glad that Dean has never met with or sought the endorsement of anyone with any Washington ties. Those damn Democrats in the congress and senate are obviously evil. We hate Democrats in the congress and the senate! - - - - - Oh, wait, Dean HAS!

As tjdee said:

" Ooh, Dean is such an outsider....

I mean, he met with *no* party insiders as the head of the Dem Governors' Association, *no* party insiders as the head of the National Governors' Association.....

Boy, he's such an outsider, he doesn't even want the dirty dirty endorsements of congressmen. Except for Congressman Pallone. Oh, and except for Congressman Pilner. And Owen and Nadler. Oh, and those six Washington DC council members (they ain't got no Congressional representation)."

See this is exactly the problem with Dean......... Clark is a candidate of integrity, Dean is the candidate of giving kids false impressions and cool sounding slogans while behaving quite differently. *endscsm*

Sheesh. When did all of our Democratic Senators and Congress that WE ELECTED become the fucking enemy? Get a grip or a clue whichever you find first.

[tjdee]

44. You're TOTALLY WRONG.

Geez, why are so many people acting like they have no reading comprehension skills?

This post would have been totally fine under the new rules, as long as he'd ended it with "I am a Dean supporter".

[zeemike]

81. Actually I did know that

But I was taking a dig at Clark supporters who seem to be universally opposed to candidate “bashing” and want rules to settle things down to a let’s focus on Bush type of forum.
Not all of us on the other side feel that way. I for one say that if you want to bash Dean (that is my man) have at it. None of that scares me in the least. Dean can take it.

[stickdog]

48. What a surprise, an ad hominem attack from a bullying Clark

supporter!

[bitchkitty]

138. It's a very relevant point -

especially for those of us who are bitterly disappointed in some of our Party's leaders. I think I speak for thousands when I say that we don't trust Washington insiders at this point.

[Blue_Chill]

38. This is the weakest anti-Clark thread yet.

Sad.

[stickdog]

50. It is what it is. No more and no less. What is sad is the

transparent techniques used to shout it down combined with the new technique of simply making it illegal.

[Blue_Chill]

55. Shout what down? You got NOTHING.

Go back to www.drudgereport.com and hit refresh until Rove gives you a better anti-Clark story.

[stickdog]

77. Sorry, Rove and I aren't speaking since he blew my cover. (NT)

[tjdee]

43. Like when Dean was the NATIONAL Governors' Association chair?

Ooh, Dean is such an outsider....

I mean, he met with *no* party insiders as the head of the Dem Governors' Association, *no* party insiders as the head of the National Governors' Association.....

Boy, he's such an outsider, he doesn't even want the dirty dirty endorsements of congressmen. Except for Congressman Pallone. Oh, and except for Congressman Pilner. And Owen and Nadler. Oh, and those six Washington DC council members (they ain't got no Congressional representation).

:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

45. It's not the "meeting with party insiders" that is the problem here

It is spending his time meeting with party insiders on the last day of fund raising for the quarter.

[WilliamPitt]

46. 'Party insiders?' MEMBERS OF CONGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus, people. We're not just trying to win the White House. There is the House and Senate, as well, and I have a feeling that people who actually HOLD SEATS IN CONGRESS probably have a few words to say on the subject.

Damn. We are literally like days away from people just making stupid shit up.

Oh...and you missed the next day:

12:00 p.m.: General Clark will be appearing with Governor Davis on noon Wednesday at the LA Fire Department Museum (also called Old Fire Station #27) at 1355 N. Cahuenga Blvd. (at the corner of DeLongpre) in Los Angeles. We recommend that you arrive there as early as 11:30.

Bastard.

[stickdog]

52. Jesus Christ, Will. If you think Clark SHOULD be spending

the last day of the quarter meeting with Congress, then why are you pissed?

What the hell did I make up? I merely poined out something that someone else may or may not find significant. The observation is what it is and nothing more.

It's an observation of the symbolism of an insider campaign. And the some of biggest insiders in the Party are, yes, in Congress.

[WilliamPitt]

53. What is the significance of the last day of the quarter

within a campaign that is two weeks old? Would you have none of the candidates meeting with Congress?

[stickdog]

65. The campaign isn't just two weeks old, Will.

If you don't think Clark's schedule today has any symbolic significance, then what's your problem here?

I happen to believe it does, but I respect your opinion as well.

The second question is a straw man.

[WilliamPitt]

80. I'm asking why you think it is significant?

[stickdog]

89. Answer is above

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=437049#437131

[janekat]

57. Unbelievable!!! Dennis Kuchinich, William Byrd, are "Insiders"??

Also Teddy Kennedy? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[WilliamPitt]

58. They also eat kittens

with Clark.

[stickdog]

69. Will, I realize that you love the political status quo with the one

exception that Bush is President instead of Gore.

However, some of us aren't particularly happy with our own Party's recent performance, either.

[WilliamPitt]

85. Why do you think his meeting is significant?

[stickdog]

92. It's not earth shattering, Will. To me, it's symbolic. See post above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=437049#437131

[TLM]

118. On the big end of quarter day when Dean is holding a rally with the people

Clark is hanging out with party insiders and power elite.


Dean = Powered by the people...

Clark = Powered by the status quo party insiders...

[Clark Can WIN]

107. Except for Kucinich, Will

His kittens are made from tofu, thankyouverymuch.

[stickdog]

68. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that members of Congress are Party outsiders.

Is that better?

I wouldn't want to sound silly or anything.

[SWPAdem]

150. Too late for worrying about sounding silly

n/t

[einsteins stein]

114. Strawman

change the subject, defeat the strawman, look good, buy time, hope everyone forgets the original question...

[DoveTurnedHawk]

49. DUMBEST. COMPLAINT. EVER.

The "content" of this complaint is simply ludicrous.

I love how the anti-Clarkers are grasping at straws!

DTH

[devinsgram]

51. So what!

[janekat]

54. Oh my Gawsh!!! A President who might actually get along with CONGRESS

.... and work with them? They might actually work on Dem issues together and get some bills passed? Perish the thought....

[stickdog]

70. I thought you were a Kucinich supporter.

OK. I'll admit I knew better.

[janekat]

101. Actually - he is closest to my political beliefs.

I have a constant battle going on in my head. The idealist who agrees with Dennis Kuchinich and thinks everything should be thrown out and redone AND the "realist" - an old cyncial political workhorse who's worked on 7 campaigns and has "been there done that."

I worked on the Gore campaign and I'm still smarting about that. There is an imposter sitting in Gore's house and we must evict him.
I have a lot of anger about that. At this point, I will vote for whomever has the best chance. To be frank, I'm so angry that I would vote for Pat Buchanan against Bush. I just hate the guy that much. He "cheated and lied" to get in there.

I loved Dennis back in the old "Dennis the Menace" days. I think he's getting a raw deal by not getting the Progressive's support. People don't see that he's the only REAL Progressive in this race.
I know I'll probably get flamed for this but I'm angry with Dean for "misleading people" (not lying) into beleiving that he is something he is NOT. I've been really looking into his record as Governor and I don't like what I see - especially with the environment.

[no name no slogan]

126. I know what you're going thru Jane

I've been around the block with a few different campaigns, too. My first national campaign was Dukakis in '88. We all supported him not because of his stands on the issues (which were more liberal than 70% of the current crop, IMHO), but because he was "electable".

You know what happened. In 1990, going against the pre-convention conventional wisdom, I supported Paul Wellstone for US Senate. Everybody wrote him off as "unelectable" and "shrill" and "too liberal". However, his grassroots campaign won out over the candidate annointed by the party leaders (the Humphreys, Modales, etc.) and went on to win the general election over a big-money Republican opponent.

The only thing that makes a candidate "unelectable" is people who support him/her on the issues who don't support the candidate that most reflects their views. Yet we Democrats keep on choosing "moderates" over our true champions under the mistaken assumption that a real Democrat can't win.

IMHO, THIS plays as big a role in getting defeated as does the Repubs dependence on corporate cash.

<>

[einsteins stein]

105. Hmm. Folks said the same thing about someone else...

That ran for President recently...

Who was that? Claimed to be a uniter, not a divider?

Damn...what was his name....

[Starpass]

56. stop being so niave

First these congressmen have their organizations in place in the states. The kind of organizations we need to win. Without them the Dems are toast in '04. Running around asking Flower Children to pound on doors will get us a victory akin to McGoverns. Secondly, Dean can't get Congressional support because they know he will lose heavily to Bush and they don't want to go down with him. Thirdly, ask Howard's what's in his papers before you think he's a virgin...far from it and his Oval Office door will be swung wide open to the corporations if he ever sits in there.

[einsteins stein]

111. Just see how Dean supporters cause trouble!

Those naive hippies, er...flower children. Knocking on doors, like they have a right to engage in the political process! How stupid can they BE?

Just sit back Deanies, let the members of Congress handle this election, after all--they did so well in 2002!

sheesh...

[TLM]

120. Bunch of crap....

"First these congressmen have their organizations in place in the states. The kind of organizations we need to win. Without them the Dems are toast in '04."

So you believe that we can/should only get someone elected if the party insiders deem it permissible? You're OK with that?

Clark has to go through party insiders and power elite to get money because he can't get populist support like Dean. Clark is a fraud.


"Running around asking Flower Children to pound on doors will get us a victory akin to McGoverns."

Why is it that Clark Corps mercenaries always insult dems by trying to compare them to other dems? It gives one the impression that Clark's soldiers hate the left... flower children? God forbid we have someone who gets the people active, instead of keeping the people out of the process and turning control of the process over to party elite insiders.


"Secondly, Dean can't get Congressional support because they know he will lose heavily to Bush and they don't want to go down with him."

Bullshit, I have yet to see one person point out why Dean, who stands to break Clinton's fundraising record this quarter, can't beat Bush.

Dean is already polling at a statistical tie with W nationally.


" Thirdly, ask Howard's what's in his papers before you think he's a virgin..."

Will Clark be making his private communications public?


"far from it and his Oval Office door will be swung wide open to the corporations if he ever sits in there."

Oh but the party insider selected Clark would close the door to all those corporate insiders and special interests who he is meeting with today to get money.

When you're talking about being beholden to corporate interests, look at the facts. Dean is running a populist campaign that is not dependant on these corporate interests, and Clark is running a typical special interest driven campaign.

Hence the fact Dean is meeting with the people tonight to celebrate and rally the supporters... while Clark is meeting with the party insiders who can funnel the special interest money to his campaign.

[janekat]

59. I think it's great!!!

[Jackhammer Jesus]

60. So this is just another way to drive into our skulls

your mantra that "Clark was sent by evil party insiders to take the nomination away from Dean!"

Does that concept strike anyone else as complete and utter bullshit?

Oh, wait - can this all be traced back to the fact that he's a Republican? :tinfoilhat: If so, please explicitly connect the dots for me. Including proof that he was a registered Republican.

You people are really grasping at straws here. And it's become fairly apparent that a vast majority of Clark conspiracy theorists and people who believe them are - what a surprise - Dean supporters.

And it doesn't reflect well on Dean when his supporters collectively try to tear down anyone who poses a threat to him, and put a Repug-esque negative spin on meaningless things (voting Republican in the 80's, having closed-door meetings with congressmen) to do so.

Here's something Howard said at the 9/25 CNBC debate: "I don't think we should ever have internecine warfare. And I promise never to have internecine warfare." I wonder, does that include calling other candidates Bush-lite? Does it include accusing other candidates of being Republicans and of being last-ditch attempts by the "establishment" to take the White House? :eyes:

Here, have another waffle.
www.wafflepoweredhoward.com

[stickdog]

72. Clark is the DLC's newest chosen Party savior.

A blank slate with a bunch of medals, a nice uniform and an impressive resume.

There's nothing tinfoil about stating the obvious!

[Jackhammer Jesus]

84. The problem isn't the concept that the DLC "chose" him, per se,

but the insinuation that the DLC has been in league with Clark from the beginning, IE before he entered the race, and that he is being carried by the DLC against popular opinion. Granted, I don't believe you ever said this, but my last post was an in-general vent. I take offense at the idea that Clark is a DLC puppet with no "popular" support, having personally been part of the grassroots DraftClark movement this summer - something quite a few people have deemed irrelevant now that Clark has DLC support. "New chosen party savior" and "sent into the race by the DLC" are very different things. The latter, I consider tinfoil.

I'll give you that Clark doesn't have the vast, impressive grassroots support that Dean has built up over the months. He doesn't necessarily have the time to build that, either. If he did take that route, he certainly wouldn't have Dean beat in fundraising any time soon. So, when I hear that he's meeting with party insiders, it strikes me as being out of necessity rather than out of indifference toward the grassroots. He wouldn't be in the race if it weren't for the grassroots support of the DraftClark movement.

Plus, a closed door meeting with party insiders certainly doesn't strike me as having some sinister undertones, and honestly I fail to see why you believe it does. And ONE closed-door meeting certainly doesn't paint Clark's campaign in my eyes as being "DC-centric, insider-centric, issue-free and regular people-impaired." It kind of irks me because you're only using one meeting to paint his entire campaign as anti-regular people. Forget the town hall meetings, right? All those "regular people" must be party insiders in disguise!:P

I could, as others have done, say "And Dean HASN'T met with party insiders? Dean HASN'T had closed-door meetings?" but we really wouldn't get anywhere that way, because no one can give a definitive answer. Even though Dean's campaign, relying on grassroots, is a stark contrast to Clark's, since he has been accepted by "the establishment," but does not by any means indicate that he's more concerned with party insiders than the will of the people.

[returnable]

87. "Dean HASN'T had closed-door meetings?"

Exactly.

In fact, I can think of at least one closed-door meeting Dean had.

In early September.

With a guy from Arkansas.

I believe he was named Clark.

Wesley Clark.

Maybe some Dean supporters have heard of him.

Why was Dean conferencing with a "known" Republican disruptor who is being bankrolled by the DLC? :)

[Jackhammer Jesus]

88. Damn. All out of foil.

And just when I needed it most!

:tinfoilhat:

What a DASTARDLY turn of events. :crazy:

[einsteins stein]

108. Good Question!

I'm glad to see you suggesting that Howard Dean choose his company more wisely. Put in in Dean's blog, he'll read it for sure, and may even act on it.

Bottoms up!

[TLM]

122. LOL!! Notice how Clark Corps Mercenaries hide behind “registration.”

"If so, please explicitly connect the dots for me. Including proof that he was a registered Republican."

So if he never registered republican, or registered independent... that means there's nothing to see here when he heaps praise on Bush or Reagan at a republican fund raiser, or when he says he likes the PNAC crew and wants to work with them again, or when he gets out of the military and goes to work with Henry F-ing Kissinger and James Woolsey.

Nope, nothing to see there, no questions to ask... in fact there is so much nothing, lets cry to the mods and get those questions banned. Just as long as he never registered, that makes it OK.

Even though Clark himself admitted that he only registered dem 2 weeks ago... we have to shut up and pretend he is a democrat, and not simply an opportunist.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

132. LOL!! Ever notice how some people with Dean beside their posts

prefer to make personal insults instead of debating the facts?

I never once said it was of no consequence that Clark did a fundraiser for Bush. I never once spoke to a mod about having a thread deleted. I never told anyone to "shut up" when they had legitimate concerns.

You CAN be concerned that he voted Republican in the 80's. But AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE that he voted Democratic in the 90's and 2000. You CAN be concerned that he spoke at a fundraiser for Bush, but acknowledge that he's more recently (2002) campaigned for Democrats. What I'm saying is, for every piece of "evidence" that he's Republican, you can find evidence that he's a Democrat.

And you can't truthfully say "Clark was a Republican until __ days ago" unless he was REGISTERED. Go right ahead and say "He only registered as a Democrat two weeks ago," because that's actually a fact, not just a regurgitation of Dean's spin on Clark.

And, by the way, this "Republican" happens to have nearly the same political stance as your idol Mr. Dean. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Republican-lover. :P
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=423028

[salin]

62. please.

Clark is running on an abbreviated schedule. Dean and others have had many opportunities to meet with "DC Insiders". The fact that today is the last day of the quarter isn't an issue.

Stop looking for ominous things that are not there. Too much of that going around.

Praise candidate Dean for the grassroots organization he has developed. But it is unnecessary to do so in a way to knock another down with hints of something.... dark.

Besides - some of those Washington insiders have worked very hard for us, I don't know who he is meeting with - but folks like Sens Barbara Boxer, Reps Waxman and Rangel, and many others - have worked against a republican wall to try to fight for us. Some "insiders" are the Good Guys.

Or have we forgotten that?

[ShaneGR]

63. StickGod takes the handoff from Newguyatl

Defense stands firm and nails Stick for a loss of two. Newsguyatl coming back into the game.

[stickdog]

74. What's with the "StickGod" crack?

Congratulations on your gang tackling and piling on techniques, though.

[Capn Sunshine]

115. hey, it's a COMPLIMENT!!

actually it's sudden onset dyslexia brought on by hypertyping under stress.

But "StickGod" is kinda a cool handle. agree?

[returnable]

64. Meanwhile, Howard...

...will be at a fundraiser with California Senator Sheila Kuehl (a *gasp* WASHINGTON INSIDER!!!) and high-profile Hollywood high-rollers Martin Sheen and Rob Reiner.

Yep. Dean and his supporters are really out there in the political wilderness...

[ShaneGR]

67. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING

We have a winner!

[stickdog]

75. A CA state senator, Martin Sheen, Rob Reiner are DC Party insiders?

Sheesh.

They aren't even Hollywood elite.

But nice try, Archie.

[returnable]

76. A State Senator is a DC party outsider?

Only in the minds of Dean supporters who think the former Governor, with his Dem-financed and Dem-staffed campaign, is "insurgent" simply because he exploited the internet before some other candidates.

And, following the theory you originally posted, shouldn't Dean, Mr. Grassroots, be out pounding on doorways in NH and IA? Why is he rubbing elbows with DC party insiders and Hollywood millionaires in California on the last day of FUNDRAISING for the quarter?

Nice try, Meathead.

[stickdog]

78. $$$

You need to raise money in many different ways when you don't have the DLC's corporate millions behind you.

[returnable]

83. B$

Oh, I see - so when Howard lobbies Dem party insiders like state senators and Hollywood millionaires (who have funded many a DLC candidate in their time) for support, he's "sticking it to The Man".

Gotcha.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[stickdog]

93. DC insiders have all moved to LA?

Thanks for clearing that up.

[returnable]

95. So, Dems in CA...

...have never received financial backing from the *gasp* DC-centered DNC? DLC posterboys Clinton & Gore haven't been lobbying hard for Davis?

Yep - California Dems and Howard Dean are really on a political island together.

[TLM]

123. And since I am going to be there as well and I am no party insider...

I'd point out that in addition to Sheen and Reiner etc. there will also be several thousand supporters... this in not a closed door meeting with the party elite power brokers.

This is an event to celebrate that we the poeple have broken the fundraising record, without those big money corproate interests that CLark has to go pander to todaty.

[returnable]

131. Hey - good for you

And *if* Dean should win the party's nomination, I can't wait for the announcement that he won't be accepting any contributions from the DNC or endorsements from Congressional Democrats and the "big money corporate interests" they all represent.

[Wickerman]

66. BFD

its his campaign. When he fucks up and has to drop out because he missed this so oh so important day of fundraising then you can tell us all you told us so. From here it seems like things are under control and he is running a pretty smooth campaign - not needing to use the last day of the quarter like the night before an exam cram session ala my freshmen year of college.

And I am quite pleased to see that Clark will be in California supporting Davis. Boy, he really had to stand in line behind all the other Dem candidates to stickup for a beleagured Dem, didn't he? Why, it looks like leadership!

[janekat]

71. Wise move - makes him look Presidential. Dean better do the same

if he wants to look "credible." Being an "Outsider" can only carry him for so long...

It won't work if he becomes the Dem Presidential Candidate.

[Starpass]

82. jane---right on the head!!

Too many think this little portion of the Dem Party is the voice and savior that the Dems will rally to. Lot of labor men and women out there whose kids are in the military and served themselves. They will look at Howard as some left over from the 70's Flower Children. HOWEVER, Howard isn't stupid. Once he gets the nomination via his cult, he will become further right than the DLC to get what he wants. He knows if he just goes around yelling about Bush it becomes boring after 13 months. These people are his first step. Then he needs the main vein of the party to ever get elected. Since he has turned that group off already, they won't be coughing up major contributions and thus his cult will have to raise the $200 million go go against Bush. That's a lot of missed lunches for them. And even so, outside of the NE, his "out there" image won't play well in states we need. Howard will have to re-invent himself and that's where Bush and Rove come in and destroy him for doing so.

[einsteins stein]

117. The Damn Deanies are at It AGAIN!

The freaking cultists!

Dirty Hippies!

Communists!

Peaceniks!

We need a real man, someone who kills with his bare hands, and eats a steak afterwards! RAW! RARRR! Not a sneaky, money hungry snake in the grass like Dean!

Dean is just a lying, hypno-bore, a one track recording, a party vampire, an insult to organized labor! If you vote for Dean, you are asleep at the wheel. If you support Dean you are a trouble maker!

Infidel!

Now sit down, shut up, and let more intelligent folks run this election.

Damn Deanies....gonna mess everything up for us...

[TLM]

127. Your post reads like some crap of FR.

Flower children...cult...

You people spew this bullshit from the DLC that Dean is some super leftists, then when that stupid label doesn;t stick, you accuse him of reinventing himself.

When the fact is Dean is the same Dean he was when this started. All that has changed is the bullshit attack dejour.

"Then he needs the main vein of the party to ever get elected. Since he has turned that group off already,"

That's not what the polls indicate. In fact the indication is that the party elite i the DLC and the party insiders have grown more and more distant from the average democrat. That's why Dean is doing so well.

The vast majority of the left and the democratic party has gotten sick and tired of this party's corrupt power brokers trying to put their power and money ahead of the people. We're sick of losing elections because of these assholes trying to push the party mor and mroe to the right.

Or perhaps yor slept through 2000 and 2002?


" they won't be coughing up major contributions and thus his cult will have to raise the $200 million go go against Bush."

First off, this cult has already borken the record for fundraising, set by clinton in 96.

Second, Dean doesn't need 200 million to beat Bush. He simply needs enough to stay on the radar.

Thrid Dean has built a massive network of internet savvy people to get out information in ways that no amount of spending by W's team can stop.


"That's a lot of missed lunches for them. And even so, outside of the NE, his "out there" image won't play well in states we need."

Yeah because you know in places like CO, MO, WV, and AZ they just love DC insiders... they hate guys from rural states with A ratings from the NRA.

NEXT?

[no name no slogan]

130. He's already started

First, he "re-invented" himself as some sort of liberal populist, when his record in Vermost speaks otherwise. Now his Iraq position is starting to sound like that of Condi Rice. Not to mention balancing the federal budget without cutting Defense (take a guess which poor women and children will get to shoulder that burden?). I mean, come on, the man already stated he started triangulating well before Clinton did. :eyes:

[DemExpat]

73. Sounds like an excellent way to spend the day before heading

out to California!

:kick:

DemEx

[Tatiana]

86. Meanwhile....

We've got the biggest f*cking scandal to ever hit the WH gaining steam! I'd like to see ALL the candidates speak out about the Bush administration endangering our national security.

[TLM]

128. Check out Dean on this issue.... he's already on it.

STATEMENT FROM GOVERNOR HOWARD DEAN

LOS ANGELES--Democratic Presidential Candidate Governor Howard Dean issued the following statement today: "Mr. President, on your second day in office, you called on your appointees to be ‘examples of humility and decency and fairness.’ The American people expect no less from you.

"Mr. President, it is time for you to act.

“Presumably, the ‘two senior administration officials’ who leaked the identity of Ambassador Wilson’s wife were sworn in at the ceremony at which you delivered this high-minded message to your staff. Presumably, they joined your administration because they believed in your much-trumpeted message of bringing “honor and dignity” to the White House.

“Now is the time when the rubber meets the road. It is time – once and for all – for those who have broken the law and jeopardized national security concerns to resign and face the legal consequences for their actions. As I said in July, and as I reiterated two days ago, there is no need to wait for investigations into the matter – although an independent investigation is clearly in order. These people know who they are, and apparently others within the administration know who they are.

“But it is you, Mr. President, who should take the lead in uncovering who in your Administration is so badly serving you and the nation. These people are, as you noted at the swearing-in ceremony, your “representatives.” You should reconsider your reported reluctance to ask your staff members whether they had a role in this affair. The American people must be reassured that their President will not tolerate actions that undermine the public’s faith in their government.

“This was a petty and mean-spirited action, but with far-reaching repercussions. National security interests have been jeopardized, sensitive intelligence operations have been compromised, a woman’s career has been destroyed, and the lives of many of her sources could be at risk. This is a grave matter.

“Equally serious are the apparent lengths some in the White House have gone in their attempts to bolster their rapidly crumbling justifications for taking the country to war.

“The American public has been misled. Federal laws appear to have been broken. The time for accountability is long overdue.”

[WilliamPitt]

90. CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION?

Why do you feel this meeting is significant?

[stickdog]

97. How many times do we have to go through this?

;-)

[JVS]

91. At least he's not speaking at a Republican fundraiser!

Don't let the decent become the enemy of the slightly less intolerable, you leftist destroyer of the party. ;-)

[einsteins stein]

99. Who Is To Say Clark Isn't Raising Funds Behind Those Doors?

If he is raising funds with Congressional leaders behind closed doors, what does that say to you about the Clark machine?

If he isn't raising funds, why the heck not? Does he think he can win without raising money? Has the money issue been resolved for Clark? Is Clark running for some other reason than trying to win the nomination?

Valid questions, under the circumstance.

[robbedvoter]

104. Or cavorting with GOP? Or murdering people? Or posting on DU?

Who's to say anything?

[einsteins stein]

109. Exactly!

who can say what Clark is doing, or why?

[eileen_d]

116. love those "who's to say" arguments

Who's to say I am not making hot, passionate love to Clark at this very moment?

Disclaimer: I am not a DC insider.

[einsteins stein]

119. I don't care about with whom Clark is sleeping...

but I do care about with whom he is raising money.

[eileen_d]

121. Who's to say he isn't raising money

by sleeping with me?

[einsteins stein]

125. I was gonna ask...

by diddn't want to open THAT door :eyes"

:-)

[leetrisck]

106. Several of the House & Senate

members have already spoken out about the candidate they are supporting. Clark really shouldn't wait any longer - it helps any candidate to have one of "them" throw them their support. I'm assuming Dems from Arkansas will support Clark but really don't know that.

[PopSixSquish]

110. Question for Stickdog

Do you agree that not only must we win the White House in '04, we must take back at least one house of Congress? Because if we don't, it won't matter who is President. Tom Delay and Bill Frist and their minions will make the Clinton investigations look like a day in the park. Advise and consent for Cabinets members, judges, ambassadors, etc.

Any person running for President had better have some serious coattails these days. Perhaps the Congressfolk would like to hear from General Clark about this very subject. I know I would. And I suspect that they would also like to hear from the Dean campaign as well.

Remember 2000, when the mouth-breathers of the Republican Congress shut up during the Bush campaign and that convention looked like an Up with People Show? Remeber when some Southern governors/congresspeople refused to campaign with Gore and didn't even mention his or Clinton's name?

And if the Dean campaign could have met with Congress folks today, tommorrow or Halloween, they would also.

And in the interest of the new rules - I support Bob Graham and John Edwards, but nobody seems to want to discuss them, I feel so left out.

[Selwynn]

134. I think your "reaching" for the significance a bit

I am a Kucinich supporter officially, however he has zero chance at the Democratic nomination and an even lesser chance of beating Bush if he was elected. So sadly, I've been forced to try to look at other candidates too, particularly the biggest names, Dean and Clark.

My personal opinion is that it is basically true that Dean is running a successful grassroots campaign, and that Clark is running a campaign with "inside" support. But frankly, this is politics - so while it may be noble and romantic that Dean is grassroots, ultimately it won't beat Bush and his 200+ million dollar insider warchest, insider stategical geniuses, and insider game knowledge. I fear that Howard Dean would be crushed by Bush, even a Bush this unpopular, which would be a devastating blow to the party.

That doesn't mean that I therefore support Clark - I have serious misgivings about Clark, especially as a man who ideologically aligns with Kucinich. But if Clark was meeting all day with "insiders" I'd say he is probably doing the "smarter" thing politically. I don't care whether or not it's a more romantic notion for a candidate to be out there "knocking on doors" and down with the "average 'murican." This is politics - hard ball. It's the big leagues, and the players are here to win. I think Clark's help from insiders is utliamtely what is going to make his campaign more successful than Deans.

This is all opinion, I could be dead wrong about everything except the candidates names.

I'm still trying to decide if I like either Clark or Dean - I really have problems with both of them. I'd give a nut to live in a land where a guy like Kucinich was nearly a shoe in with huge popular support. But then again, I'd like a million dollars and a marriage to Deborah Messing too.

[davidinalameda]

135. what's wrong with targeting those who will be super-delegates

to the convention?


you run your campaign and let the General run his

[stickdog]

151. Nothing is "wrong" with it. It's a diiference. Superdelegates, Party

insiders and $2000 fat cats vs. regular people giving $100 and their time.

That's all.

[QC]

144. This thread says it all

about why some of us like Dean and yet are repelled by some of his more strident followers.

I was interested in Dean long before most people here had ever heard of him, since I followed the Vermont civil unions story very closely and have a friend who went there for the 2002 campaign to help fight the Religous Right operatives sent to that state. I signed up for his mailing list not long after he declared, voted for him in the Move On primary, and told my friends and family about him.

But the fanaticism of some of his admirers here drives me away from him. It's funny--I can listen to Dean make a speech and I love him, but when I spend some time reading through a thread like this one, I find myself wondering if I want to be associated with him. And I know that's not a rational response, but it's a human one--after all, we do judge people by those around them.

[stickdog]

152. "I hold this 'truth' to be self-evident."

The rational response would be to address the topic, refrain from posting or at least explain why you thought addressing the topic was beneath you.

The lame -- bordering on Republican -- response is the old self-evident holier-than-thou ad hominem.

[QC]

153. Do you really think this sort of thing helps your candidate?

If you really want to help Howard Dean, you could start by not being such a hysterical little ass in his name.

[stickdog]

154. Thanks, QC. Although I'm a big donkey now, I do think your

ad hominem whining is hysterical.

Attacking the messenger instead of the message always demonstrates such awesome maturity ...

[QC]

155. And you are, after all, our resident authority on maturity.

:eyes:

[Dr Fate]

146. Why should he let the Republican owned press in on their meeting?

They will just spin shit, have it on Drudge and Rush, and then some DUers will vomit it up the "information" all over GD...

This does not bother me in the least...

[Zorra]

147. Well, hopefully

Clark is meeting with Congress to tell them what he knows about 9/11, and is planning on busting the PNAC. I can dream, can't I?