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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:17 AM
Original message
Past haunts Dean on Medicare issue

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/30/past_haunts_dean_on_medicare_issue/

"The truth, however, is that as a conservative Democratic governor, Dean really did do what Gephardt says he did, and his shifting attempts to wiggle off that hook have made his conduct an issue in a Democratic race that grows more serious by the week."


The column's conclusions ---

"Moreover, the reemergence of fiscal crisis has made Dean's views in the mid-'90s relevant: He has said Medicare should again be on the table if he is president.

Bottom line: Gephardt and Kerry have a legitimate point, and Dean will have trouble expanding his remarkable base to the elderly and to voters of moderate means unless he does a more forthright job of facing up to his past."



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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh dear , a dichotomy
How to respond to this without having Skinner think about even more new rules....OK satire aside.......

From the commencement of the Howard Dean campaign I have been troubled by his seeming bifurcation from a very centrist governor to a seeming champion of liberalism.....Despite the flood of supporters, some of whom are familiar with the mans political history, many of whom I suspect are just blown away by his vocal criticisms of Bush and have failed to do their homework on his actual background, I see Dean as more of an opportunist, one who has seent he vaccuum created by the DLC leadership and leaped into an opposition stance.

Not that I am condemning his vocal and necesary criticisms and condemnations of Bush but ,honestly folks, after the smoke clears a man is what he is, and ,should Dean actually gain the WH, what will we have really achieved? This is not meant to provoke anyone, honestly! Dean in the WH means continuation of far too much of the Bush agenda,imo, and are those items more palatable because you like the messenger?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm from Vermont and know more about Dean than most here
He's a damn great man, was a wonderful governor, a great leader and we'd be damn lucky to have Howard Dean as president.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. And what will we have achieved with Clark or Kerry in the White House?
At least Dean is his own man. At least Dean is an honorable man who is not afraid to say what he thinks. At least Dean stands up for Democrats when everyone else is cowering in the corner or trying to get an appointment to see Karl Rove.

What part of "Bush's agenda" do you see Dean continuing? All Bush has done is give away the treasury to the richest Americans and his corporate/military cronies while fighting a never ending imperialistic war and increasing all government spending at records rates.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. stickdog, who does THIS sound like to you?
Why do you believe that his conversion to populism in January is the REAL thing, when his past record shows he's more like Bush when he is governing?


http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996

MONTPELIER - A leading environmentalist was asked to leave Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont.

Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, was one of 20 members of the governor's environmental council, which meets about once every three months with the governor.

But after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft newspaper piece, Courtney said.

"From the tone of your letter (to the governor), the content of your (newspaper) essay, and your rejection of the concerns we have raised with you in conversation, it appears that you do not seek a dialogue," Rocchio wrote to Courtney and to VNRC's board. "The governor sees little point in continuing to try to discuss these issues with you."

Meanwhile, another prominent environmentalist - Mark Sinclair, Vermont director of the Conservation Law Foundation - was also asked to step down from the council. Sinclair said it was not yet clear whether he was being removed to make way for another environmentalist, as he was told, or because he had criticized Dean's environmental policies.
>>>>>>>

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html


Dean raises money from energy sources

February 27, 2002

By David Gram

ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.

>>>>>>>
“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.

A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:

— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. What does it sound like?
A fight between near left VT Democrats and far left VT Greens. What does it sound like to you?
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Agreed
As a Dean-leaner, I don't find your observation troublesome at all. You raise a good point. We have a right for clarification of seeming contradictions -- from any candidate.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
53. I agree
it's not unreasonable to ask the man to address the actual issue, and not spend so much emotional energy on denouncing the comparison to Gingrich. Dean justifies what he did and said in 1995 because the country was in a horribly fiscal crisis.

Hello? Are we not in one now? We have not just a right, but a responsibility to be aware of how each of the candidates would address this fiscal nightmare if they were President.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. That stuff is nonsense
Gephardt is using partial quotes and misleading people. It's led me to lose all respect for him. Dean criticized the way the program is run, not what it is intended to do. Someone provided a link to one of the full articles that included all statements Dean made, and it portrays a much different story when you read the full article. Clearly someone is lying. It's either Gephardt or Bill Clinton. Clinton said at the Harkin Steak Fry that NO ONE is better on Health Care or has done more in this area than Howard Dean. As a Vermonter, I know that Clinton is the one telling the truth. If it weren't for Howard Dean, my family would not have insurance right now.

Does anyone have the link to that full article I'm talking about? I think it was on "Liberal Oasis" or some such thing.
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Write to the Globe
I encourage you/someone else to write to the Globe, and share that truth/perspective (I haven't read/seen that piece). Some DUs may all think this is YAWN stuff, but believe me there are alot of people in Metro Boston who will read that column but never see or hear the truth/other side. Put another way, there aren't enough DUs to sway the vote outcome - we need Mr. and Mrs. Middle and East Coast America too.
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
47. Yeah, that is a great idea
Take what you posted about being from Vermont and knowing what he has done for seniors in your state and for healthcare in general and write a letter to the Globe. I am always looking for people from Vermont to help counter articles like this. I think the Globe probably is inaccurate...I have tried to do some research in the Rutland Herald archives on this but have not found much, since the Herald only went online in 1999. I found this letter to the editor from October 2000:

Dean's gains for health care

Gov. Howard Dean and Vermont's Democratic leadership in the Legislature have compiled an impressive record on health care, a major concern of many citizens.

Over just the past two years, their accomplishments include:

A law that expands the state's "Vscript" program, which helps seniors pay for prescription drugs, to cover elderly persons with incomes up to 225 percent of the poverty line.
A bill that formally asks the federal government to allow Medicare recipients and Vermonters earning less than 300 percent of the poverty level to buy drugs at Medicaid prices. This would save those who qualify 22-30 percent on prescription costs.
A law that allows Vermonters with homesteads valued at $75,000 or less to remain Medicaid-eligible for nursing home care.
A law that requires that health insurance companies cover prescription contraceptives as part of any drug coverage program.
Governor Dean and the Democratic leadership have fought to help this state's working families with their medical expenses, day after day and inch by inch, for a long time. I support them and applaud their efforts to provide quality health care for all Vermonters.

HOLLY WILSON
Quechee, VT
http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/14186

I am going to keep looking. If I find anything else I will post it here.

One more bat to go!
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Did Clinton say that? I don't recall that and, frankly, I'd have been

somewhat impressed if I'd heard those words from Bill Clinton's mouth. What I recall is that Clinton made a comment about liking having Dean at governors' meetings when Clinton was governor of Arkansas because he knew that if he had a heart attack, Howard might save his life.

Do you have a link to a transcript of Clinton's speech?

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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yes he did say that...
"No one has done better things on Health Care then Howard Dean." ~William Clinton-Harkin Steak Fry...

Watched it twice.
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. I'm still looking for the transcript
but I was there and he absolutely DID say that, as he was praising all the attendees individually for various things.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Here you go
http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/092103.htm

A snippet:

Vermont's Democratic governor, Howard Dean, said the GOP budget cuts "absolutely stick it to the states" and could strip away the safety net for the poor in some states.

"It will just totally cripple our ability to manage," he said, "and it will essentially force a tax increase in most states. And Minnesota and Vermont are two of them."…

…"What they're interested in is cutting the budget and making sure that somebody else gets the blame," he said.

On health insurance, he was critical of Newt, in a 7/11//95 W. Post piece:

has implemented state reforms including the extension of Medicaid coverage to a broader range of poor children.

Dean has urged House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) to sacrifice $5 billion of the proposed GOP tax cut to implement a similar plan nationally.

"As you control costs you must expand coverage. We have expanded individuals covered as we have worked hard to restrain costs," Dean said.

"That is where the congressional plan falls apart.

"It helps to balance the budget but does nothing to move toward universal coverage in the private system. . . . The Republicans are missing a wonderful opportunity to expand coverage, not reduce it."


Julie

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Is it okay to go back to the mid-90s for stuff, Julie?
I've heard Dean supporters claiming it's not fair.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. hey, know what?
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 09:34 AM by JNelson6563
Someone asked for the LA bit posted yesterday and I'd been to see it. It was easily found in my history folder so I passed on link and blurb. Not a word of commentary from me even!

Is that ok with you?? I didn't realize I was setting some standard for the dialogue around here. Sheesh!! I'll be more careful in fulfilling such requests from now on. :eyes:

Julie
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. no, what?
Julie, anything's 'okay with me' as long as it's a standard rule.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. OK, good.
I don't get your original question I guess. I posted link to story about Gephardt's comments re: Dean's stance in the mid-90's. Apparently to answer charges based on that time period the author of the article included information from it. I made no comment.

I didn't realize there was a standard rule in question.

Julie
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. The issue is from the mid 90's is it not?
:shrug:
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Of course they would
The bulk of Deans political affair goes back well before you can access data an articles from Vemront newpapers, whose online bases do not go back before 1999 (for one paper, the others not before 2000).

SO that means for Dean, one can only access info from his last term as governor. AND since he decided he was going to run for president in mid 2001, his cleaned up act and speeches are all that would be available to judge him on, so they can focus on two recent decision of the other candidates, the OCtober Resolution, and the Partiot act, and leave out all of the far more decisive and important things other candidates have done for the public, to bolster Denas poor record.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. God, he's just an evil bastard, isn't he?
I'm so glad we've got you around, Nicholas, to help us out here.


Problem is, your job is actually to make sure no one ever actually gets the truth about Dean -- just spin, innuendo, distortions, mischaracterizations and sometimes outright lies.

Eloriel
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Unlike posts like yours
just filled with information like "your job is actually to make sure no one ever actually gets the truth about Dean"

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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Hold On There!
I have seen more than a few posts of yours regarding Clark.

Perhaps we all should focus a bit more on the issues, and less on the spin.
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. We are responding to a Gephardt charge that goes back to the mid-90's
So of course we have to look back to the mid-90's to refute it.

One more bat to go!
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. See the lead article from my website.
titled, WHAT ARE WE DOING?! link is in my sig below.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. I dont see the link? Thanks N/T
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. Not nonsense
Dean criticized the way the program is run, not what it is intended to do.

No, that's what he is saying now. That's not what he said then. He said it was the worst program ever. *Maybe* he meant that it was administered poorly, but in that huge fight, that closed the government down, he was saying about Medicare what the R's were saying about it. How is that NOT standing with Gingrich on Medicare?

Clinton said at the Harkin Steak Fry that NO ONE is better on Health Care or has done more in this area than Howard Dean.

True, definitely. I mean the guy was a doctor! He actually delivered health care to individuals! Of course he would be better. But that doesn't mean that he didn't do what Gep is saying. The facts, even all in context, still show that as far as Medicare is concerned, Dean proposed drastic cuts. Painful cuts.

Dean has said that balancing the budget will require painful cuts. Do you see just how painful they will be?
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yawn...
:boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring:
:boring::boring::boring::boring::boring::boring:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The Deanie tactic of saying "Yawn" instead of presenting some

facts to support their candidate is childish and annoying. It demonstrates a "Who cares what you think?" attitude that we all know as a trait of the Bush* crew. If Dean should win the nomination, he'll need to earn my vote. His supporters are not helping his cause by trying to blow off all questions about him.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. See post # 9..N/T
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WhereIsMyFreedom Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
46. I don't care for that tactic either
And I've seen plenty of Dean, Kerry, and Clark supporters using it lately.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
57. Every time I see one of those
I worry that the poster isn't getting enough sleep, but I always fail to understand how their sleep habits effects political discourse.

I do have a couple of teenagers, though, so I understand the mentality.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. The past haunts Gephardt more
Under Gephardt the Dems went from majority to minority and last year we lost more seats to Repubs after winning a few seats in the previous 2 elections.

Gephardt is a loser.
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Gephardt's Present Haunts Him Too
My view ---

When Gephardt stood next to Bush last fall to support the resolution re Iraq he erased in one visual second all of his efforts for labor and working families. In my view, he was all done.

Gephardt didn't even tell his house colleagues (consider that he was minority leader and didn't tell anyone) he was going to support Bush, he just showed up on TV next to Bush. This was after Democrats were making noise about the resolution. The House Democrats were done after that.

Gephardt shut down the discussion, the debate about the resolution - the day after he stood next to Bush, the democrats in the senate caved in and supported it as well.

I am not saying the Democrats would have defeated the resolution - but there might have been more debate, reflection and consideration of the words - perhaps to improve the words and also so people in the US woud would have heard more than one side.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
60. What I call the "Rose Garden Betrayal"
Both of those men knew that they intended to run for President and they were "getting ahead" on the issue. I follow the primary things very closely, but I only follow a few candidates, not all 10.

I don't follow either Gep or Lieberman.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Gephardt being a poor leader doesn't make Dean a good one!
C'mon Lark!
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Agreed
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. It makes him jealous of Dean's ability to rally people to his campaign
Gephardt may be leading in labor endorsements, but he's not getting people excited about his campaign. Dean will rake in 3-5 times as much contributions as Gephardt will this quarter, and the 3rd quarter is the worse one for fundraising.

Let's face it, leadership means being able to inspire people to support your campaign. Dean's done it, Gephardt has not. The proof is in the contributions raised and how they were raised. Unlike Bush, Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman, Dean's contributions average between $50-100. The others depended heavily on $2,000 donors, who are now spent out for the year. I'm not sure what Gephardt's donation average was.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
58. That is a different subject
Smearing the messenger is a very poor way of explaining Dean's position from that era.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why did Dean say the charge was flat out false when it appears to
be pretty much the truth? As the Liberal Oasis article Julie cites points out, Dean supported the $260 billion cut Domenici supported, not the $260 billion cut Gingrich supported. Well, that's a distinction, but not much of a difference and hardly enough to justify Dean's statement the charge was "flat-out false". And since that cut was hardly what Clinton supported, by claiming it is, he's, at best, attempting to less than honestly blur the impact of a legitimate criticism.

Whether or not one currently supports Dean as their number one choice, one can't be happy with the way he's handled himself the past few weeks. Simply admitting he had supported a harsh cut in Medicare, confessing he had been flat-out wrong, and promising not to consider similar measures in the future might have worked better.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Here's some truth about Dean in '95
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 11:06 AM by party_line
snip>
It's somewhat of an odd charge, given that Dean, then chairman of the National Governors Association, first caught the eye of the national media with his exceedingly harsh denunciations of the new Gingrich-led Congress in 1995, the year after the historic Republican Revolution. The Dean campaign has noted that Dean appeared at several press conferences and events with Gephardt in 1995 to protest GOP plans to overhaul the welfare system and press for a balanced budget amendment.

In the archives of The Washington Post we find this story that Balz wrote in January 1995:

"The chairman of the National Governors' Association, Democratic Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont, yesterday ripped into the Republicans' welfare reform plan as a policy 'to starve children and kick old people out of their houses’ and attacked Republican governors in extraordinarily harsh language for helping to negotiate it.

"Dean said the plan, outlined Friday in Washington, is the work of 'extremists who have taken over Congress.' In a telephone interview, he vowed, 'I'll be damned if I'm going to let extremists take over the National Governors' Association.'"

So it rankles Dean that Gephardt is accusing him of being Gingrich's toadie. Dean reiterated Saturday that Gephardt had taken his comments on Medicare out of context. Dean says his criticism was of the Medicare program's sloppy and inefficient bureaucracy, not of the program itself.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17608-2003Sep29.html

Doesn't sound like support to me.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Dean should tell the truth instead of making a smokescreen
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 11:42 AM by sangh0
His comments about WELFARE do nothing to refute Gephardt's charge that Dean agreed with Newt about Medicare.

Funny how you have a quote from Dean on WELFARE, but when it comes to the issue at hand, MEDICARE, all you offer is your own personal observations, with no quotes:

Dean says his criticism was of the Medicare program's sloppy and inefficient bureaucracy, not of the program itself.

FInd a link where he said that IN 1985!!!
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
62. 1995, not 1985 (nt)
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
61. You're missing the parts about Medicare
Dean supported the Dem position on a number of things, but he did support the proposed cuts in Medicare. He has not yet addressed that directly. Instead, he raises the same straw man you do:

So it rankles Dean that Gephardt is accusing him of being Gingrich's toadie

That's not what Gep said, and everyone knows it.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. Dean: "YES, IT'S TRUE! I'M GINGRICH'S BLOW BUDDY AND I WANT
ALL SENIOR CITIZENS TO DIE HORRIBLE DEATHS WITHOUT HEALTHCARE!"

:eyes:

Why is Gephardt so desperate that he's smearing Dean about a reasonable stance Dean took 8 years ago?

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. why is Dean denying that resonable stance?
Gep didn't exagerrate Dean's stance, like your parody did, and he didn't even say it wasn't reasonable.

Gep just told us what Dean's stance was, and instead of defending it like other candidates have defended their unpopular stances, he's denying he took the stance.

Not good, in my book.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
65. Similar to how *who* argue now?
It seems to me that the WH has a bad habit these days of pretending that their NEW positions are the same positions that they've ALWAYS had.

The funniest example of Dean denying an old position was the thing on "This Week" when he chastised George S. for characterizing his earlier support of NAFTA as being a "strong supporter". That day, both the Gep and Kerry campaigns produced transcripts of Dean on "This Week" ten years earlier, with the Dean quote "I was a strong supporter of NAFTA".
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. Gephardt's distortion is the KEY POINT HERE!
Follow me here:

"While Dean was working for McGovern, Karl Rove voted for Nixon in 1972. So did Wesley Clark.

Please stand with all real Democrats like Dean and all of us in condemning Wesley Clark for colluding with Nixon and Karl Rove to destroy democracy while the rest of us were fighting for peace and justice!"

1) Dean never advocated cutting Medicare, just its rate of growth.

2) Anybody might partially agree with an enemy at one time or another. Dean also disagreed with a lot of Gingrich's Medicare agenda.

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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
63. Another straw man
It's part and parcel of the arguments around here, particularly on this topic, that we erect the Straw Man of "Gep says Dean and Gingrich are the same!" and then say, that's ridiculous.

FACT: Dean, when faced with a fiscal crisis in this country, was willing to do many things that would make a Democrat scream bloody murder.

FACT: The country is facing yet another fiscal crisis today.

QUESTION: What will Dean cut?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Dean also supported massive cuts in
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 12:21 PM by Nicholas_J
other programs in Vermont that provided services to the elderly of limited means:

Dean Chose to Recommend Elimination of Prescription Drug Program. Dean said in his budget address, “Therefore, I regretfully recommend to you that we eliminate the expanded VSCRIPT program in its entirety.” VSCRIPT, Vermont’s prescription drug program which pays half the cost of some maintenance drugs for low-income seniors, covered about 3,200 Vermonters at the time.

Senior’s Advocates Were “Dismayed.” “Advocates for senior citizens and local property taxpayers were dismayed at the choices the governor made in reducing the budget. ‘My reaction is that senior Vermonters and disabled Vermonters, under the governor's proposal, will take a disproportionate share of the pain,’ said Candy Moot of the American Association of Retired Persons. Harriet Goodwin of the Community of Vermont Elders said the proposal amounted to ‘throwing our most vulnerable seniors overboard,’ estimating that 15,000 senior citizens and disabled people would be cut off state programs or would have reduced benefits. ‘Hopefully this is not the end of the story; these cuts are just too deep,’ Goodwin said. ‘This is very bad news for many Vermont senior citizens struggling to pay for their prescription drugs.’”

Dean Cut $2.1 Million in Nursing Home Medicaid Money. “The 10-member committee endorsed dozens of cuts proposed by the governor, ranging from $88 taken from the University of Vermont's Morgan horse farm to $2.1 million in nursing home care through the Medicaid program.”

Vermont Second Worst in Reimbursement Rates. “Vermont and many other states reimburse nursing homes far less than what it costs the facilities to provide patient care, a national study claims. Vermont ranked second worst in the country in the size of the financial gap between the state's reimbursement and costs, according to research by an accounting firm for the American Health Care Association.”

Vermont In Bottom Three States In Spending on Nursing Home complaints. “The GAO report found that Louisiana spends proportionately less than all but three other states when it comes to looking into complaints at nursing homes. Nationwide, states spent an average of 20 percent of their nursing home inspection and certification expenses on complaints in 1998, while Louisiana spent 6.3 percent, the GAO reported. Only Vermont, New Hampshire and Oregon dedicated less. …Lack of supervision of elderly residents to prevent accidents and improper care for bedsores were among problems that appeared to be on the increase in a survey of the nation's 10 largest states by the inspector general for the Department of Health and Human Services.”

Vermont Higher Than National Average in Harmful Facilities. In Vermont’s annual 2001 report from the Department of Aging, they found that 22.7% of Vermont facilities had deficiencies at harm level to residents, compared to 21.4% for the nation.”

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/releases/pr_2003_0928.html

Now lets looke at something from Home Health Care advocate aout Deans cuts:

Governor’s Budget Cuts Medicaid Programs

Governor Howard Dean, in his eleventh and last budget address, cut several Medicaid programs including prescription drugs, dental care and vision services. Dean told lawmakers times a tough and sacrifices had to be made.

The Dean budget for FY 2003 is $891 million in state spending, one percent more than the state expects to spend this fiscal year but nearly 3% less than the budget passed last year ($916 million). Revenues this year are expected to be $50 million below budget. Dean wants to use the "Rainy Day" fund to cover some of the $50 million shortfall but does not want to tap that fund for FY 2003. Next year’s budget is based on revenue estimates of $893 million.

If passed as presented, Dean’s budget would:

Eliminate the VScript Expanded Program.

Reduce the Vermont Health Access Plan pharmacy benefit.

Increase the co-pay up to $750/year for medicines under both the VScript and VHAP pharmacy programs. (Those eligible now pay only a few dollars for each filled prescription).

Eliminate the Medicaid dentures, chiropractic and podiatry programs.

Reduce the adult dental programs (cover pain and suffering only, not preventative care).

Add a 50% co-pay to adult vision programs.

Add a $250 co-pay per admission to VHAP inpatient hospital benefit.

Reduce the hospital outpatient payment by 10%.

Establish a hospital outpatient co-pay of $25.

These cuts would save about $27 million, $11 million in state money. Few advocates for the elderly are happy with the budget and have vowed to restore the money lost to these programs. A coalition of over a dozen advocacy groups held a rally and press conference at the Capitol building to denounce the budget cuts.

http://vnavt.com/vahhavoicewinter2002.htm

It is absolutely irrelevant that this was Deans response to the cuts that resulted from the Bush tax cuts.

Dean was offered a number of alternatives to cuts by the Democratic leadership in Vermont, as well as by the progressive, but Dean decuded to suport the Vermont Republican's position for cuts, rather thna increase taxes on the rich, which was entered for legislative vote in the Vermont Legislature by the Vermont progressive party


Deans answer : The rich are already taxesd too much.

No. There is a great DEAL of truth in what both Kerry and Gephardt have stated about Deans past. It is highly conservative, and closely more closely aligned with the Neo-Conservative movement, than the DLC's Hyde Park policy statement defining democratic centrism.

Dean as never even approached being as liberal as the defining document of the party's centrist movement lays out. His performance as governor was far to the right of centrist party doctrine.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Maybe you haven't seen this rebuttal to Kerry's attack


Proposal: AKA "John Kerry Should Be Ashamed Of Himself"
I did a little research. Actually, I did three hours of research (for which -- in a perfect world -- John Kerry would have to reimburse me). One thing stands out: Governor Dean tells the truth to his citizens. If we don't have the revenue, we can't provide every service. He has said the same, and should continue to say the same, as part of this campaign. Don't promise everything when you're also promising decreased taxes. It can't be done.

Point by point rebuttal of Kerry (go here to see what I'm talking about):

1. Kerry first quotes from Dr. Dean's 2002 Budget address, selectively choosing the sentence in which he "regretfully" requests that they cut the VSCRIPT program.

The entire text of that speech is here.

John Kerry does not, of course, quote the entire relevant passage. Here it is:

The Medicaid budget will present significant challenges this year. Every Vermonter deserves to have access to health care, and I will continue to fight for that principle. But we cannot afford to provide all the services that we currently offer.

In this budget I once again ask that you modify Medicaid to ensure the state-covered plan resembles insurance packages offered in the private sector.

In addition, pharmaceutical costs are eroding the budget of every state in the union. In 1998, Vermont's Medicaid program spent $40 million on prescription drugs. In 2002, we will spend just under $100 million -- a 150 percent increase.

Last year I recommended an increase of 67 cents in the cigarette tax. The Legislature declined to raise this tax, leaving our rate at only 44 cents a pack. In Washington State, the tax is $1.50 per pack, and just last week New York state agreed to increase their cigarette tax by 39 cents to $1.50 per pack.

Smoking is a public health emergency, and the lack of an adequate cigarette tax is an emergency for all Vermonters who depend on the state for health care.

This budget does not include revenue increases -- such as the cigarette tax -- that the Legislature has previously opposed. Therefore, I regretfully recommend to you that we eliminate the expanded VSCRIPT program in its entirety, which is 100 percent funded through state dollars.

I also ask that we impose a 50 percent co-payment on pharmaceutical benefits through both the Vermont Health Access Plan and the remaining VSCRIPT program. These pharmaceutical programs are among the most expensive and rapidly growing parts of the Human Services budget.

If the Legislature does not raise revenues, we have no choice but to reduce the programs.

2. Kerry quotes the reactions from the AARP representative and Community of Vermont Elders. They didn't like the cuts. They said so. They should have; it was their responsibility to fight for their constituents as hard as they could. It was the Governor's responsibility to keep Vermont solvent. Most other states did not make cuts like these. They are in dire financial trouble now. Vermont is not, and their seniors are well-served by this fact.

3. Try as I might, I couldn't google the AP quote Kerry gives. Let's assume it's true. See speech excerpt above.

I was fascinated to discover that Vermont's current Republican Governor Jim Douglas stated, in May of this year, "“Vermont’s system of long term care is among the best in the country, and we are committed to keeping that way."

It's also interesting to note that some of Dr. Dean's long-term care proposals mirror those of Governor Douglas in the area of providing choices for care and flexibility in waivers. Tell me again how Howard Dean is the most liberal of the candidates?

This article is a look at the pragmatic way that Governor Dean learned to govern -- and how it paid off for Vermont.

4. Kerry quotes an AP report: "Vermont and many other states reimburse nursing homes far less than what it costs the facilities to provide patient care, a national study claims. Vermont ranked second worst in the country in the size of the financial gap between the state's reimbursement and costs, according to research by an accounting firm for the American Health Care Association."

Once again, I couldn't manage to google this exact report, but I did find some interesting information that seems to indicate that this is a serious misrepresentation of the facts by Kerry. First of all, this statement by the American College of Health Care Administrators, indicates that they found the problem to be one at the national level and, oh, by the way, in that list with Vermont? Massachusetts. This site and this one also refer to this as a "Medicaid shortfall." The implication seems to be that the nursing homes the listed states were providing services at a certain cost and that Medicaid could not cover those costs. So...those decisions would lie with the owners and administrators of the nursing homes, wouldn't they? A quote: "The study contends lack of access to adequate federal reimbursement may reduce the quality of care available to residents as well as further impact the current staffing shortage." This was not a problem created by the states.

5. Kerry's fifth headline reads: "Vermont In Bottom Three States In Spending on Nursing Home Complaints"

The GAO report Kerry refers to is here. I downloaded the entire document and read the methodology. Pertinent facts: The bulk of the report is based on case studies in three states that the auditors visited: Michigan, Maryland, and Washington. State auditor reports for 10 additional states -- none of them being Vermont -- were also examined.

Vermont appears in the tables, located in the Appendices, that list all states and their expenditures. Here is the footnote that accompanies the tables:

1 The information presented in tables II.1 and II.2 was developed by HCFA in collaboration with GAO. It is based on Medicare and Medicaid certification expenditure data, workload data and state licensure percentages reported by states to HCFA. When states investigate a complaint as part of annual inspections, HCFA requires states to separate work hours between complaint and annual surveys, but some states may neglect to distinguish complaint hours. Therefore, complaint expenditures may be understated in some states. The estimates are based on certification expenditures only, so that if a state places any portion of its certification responsibilities within other noncertification-related Medicaid-administered expenditures, this portion will not be reflected in the expenditure amounts. Also, the state licensing percentages were reported by the HCFA regional offices after verification by the states. While 77 percent of federally certified nursing homes participate in both the Medicare and Medicaid programs, there are some homes that participate solely in one or the other. The state licensing percentage is affected slightly by this mix of facilities’ certification in each state. Some, but not all, of the state licensing percentages reflect a mix of facilities. This may slightly vary the federal and state shares in those states where mix of facilities was not reflected in the state licensing percentage. Data on U.S. territories are reflected in the national numbers.

Does Vermont fall into any of these "exceptions," making the data that Kerry quotes questionable? The report doesn't specify. Kerry doesn't seem to have a problem with this.

6. Kerry states, "Vermont Higher Than National Average in Harmful Facilities" citing a 2001 Vermont Department of Aging survey that shows 22.7% of VT facilities having harmful deficiencies as compared to the U.S. average of 21.4%.

First of all, remember that Vermont is a small state and percentage changes will seem to be greater because of its size compared to other states. In fact, the very AHCA study Kerry cites earlier points this out in its own statistics.

Do you want to read the Department of Aging's Customer Satisfaction Report for 2001? It's right here. An independent firm did the survey. Guess what?

"Consumers of the State’s long-term care services indicated overwhelming satisfaction and approval for the programs in which they participated. Satisfaction and approval ratings were consistently high across all measures. For the third year in a row, consumers were most satisfied with the courtesy shown by their caregivers, with 93% of consumers indicating they felt caregiver courtesy was either “excellent” or “good.” Additionally, at least 85% of long-term care consumers statewide indicated similar levels of satisfaction with the quality of assistance they received (89.3%), the reliability of service (87.9%), and communication with caregivers (87.8%)."

Also:

"In 2001, the percentage of consumers who felt long-term care programs were a good value for the services they received remained consistent with 2000 results, at about 80%. Furthermore, an overwhelming majority (89.1%) of consumers felt the help they have received from long-term care services had made their lives “much” or “somewhat better.” Over 80% of consumers statewide felt it would be “difficult” or “very difficult” to stay in their homes if they did not receive long-term care services."

Horrifying, isn't it? Except, the opposite of that. Oh, and check this out:

"Long-term care consumers statewide were less satisfied with the amount of choice and control they had when planning their long-term care services, although their satisfaction level increased significantly in 2001 compared to 2000. Whereas only 71.7% of consumers rated the amount of choice and control they had as “excellent” or “good” in 2000, 81.0% rated this service element as “excellent” or “good” in 2001." Hmm. And "choice" is a big part of Howard Dean's Long Term Care Program. Gee, do ya think he actually read the reports his DOA produced? Someone should tell Kerry. I'm sure he'd correct his site right away.

http://home.att.net/~opus163/rebuttal1.html
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Sorry
The real issue is Deans DIVERSION with the cigarette tax crap, which was HIS preferred method and a very unrelaible method of raising revenues, while he was offered other means, such as reinstituing the progessive tax system he rolled back in 1994. Sorry, Dean is saying, Its not my fault, I couldnt control what Bush did. Which is CRAP. He made choices, and these cuts were not the ONLY altenative he had as indicated by Peter Shumlin when he stated:

I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Here again, Dean is shown to be in league with the Republican dominated House of Reprsentatives regarding cutting health care programs to the elderly and disabled. AS he was in 1995 bty aligning with Gingrich and Domemnici.

Only this was not 1995, it was in 2002.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. What the bashers do not seem to understand, or want to understand




Is that Dean was in favor of cutting the Medicare bureaucracy... the mess administrating the program, and expanding coverage.

Yet the bashers say that he supported cutting Medicare with Newt to attack Dean, and that is flat out false.

Dean supported cutting the admin end to allow for expanded coverage on the patient end. Newt supported cuts, period, to kill the program.

Comparing Dean to Newt on their desire for medicate cuts is like comparing a surgeon removing a tumor with a axe murder removing your head.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Were the Domenici cuts Dean supported significantly different from
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 01:13 PM by Karmadillo
the cuts Gingrich supported? It's a serious quesition, not bashing, since the Liberal Oasis article calls the proposed cuts similar, but doesn't really identify the similarities or any differences.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. How odd
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 01:10 PM by loyalsister
"Dean was in favor of cutting the Medicare bureaucracy... the mess administrating the program, and expanding coverage"

Where have we heard about this before? Oh, the irony!!!! He's getting bashed by DK supporters here! This is exactly where he learned that Single-Payer is currently a lofty faraway dream.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
21. Here is another editorial on it..
..and remember, in editorials, the writer spins the facts however he or she wishes, but still...

"Howard Dean, the candidate Republicans love to depict as the heart-throb of the loony left, in fact won conservative praise in the mid-1990s for his agreement with Republican plans for deep Medicare spending cuts. The record shows Dean, who as Vermont governor was serving as head of the National Governors' Association, endorsed cuts of the magnitude Gingrich envisioned. He did so while the bills were moving through the Senate.

The good doctor may not have stood for pictures with Gingrich (lucky for him!). But the record shows he supported putting Medicare and Social Security on the block. This was an effort to ensure that all federal programs, not just those affecting state finances (welfare, Medicaid, money for local cops) got the Gingrich ax.

Rep. Dick Gephardt (D-Mo.), one of Dean's rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, has been pointing this out for weeks, most strenuously in the candidates' New York City debate last Thursday. Dean has been defending himself. And this is the problem.

His defenses are, to put it gently, curious. At first Dean told The Washington Post that he didn't remember who was on which side of the Medicare fight. A few days later, a campaign spokesman, Jeremy Ben Ami, told me there were "all sorts of different fights" over Medicare from 1995, when the Gingrich Republicans took over, through 1997, when Clinton - by then re-elected after a campaign, essentially, against the Gingrich Congress - forged a budget agreement with them."

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-vpcoc303474700sep30,0,848380.column?coll=ny-health-headlines
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. The WaPO remembers
see post 20-

snip
"The chairman of the National Governors' Association, Democratic Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont, yesterday ripped into the Republicans' welfare reform plan as a policy 'to starve children and kick old people out of their houses’ and attacked Republican governors in extraordinarily harsh language for helping to negotiate it.

"Dean said the plan, outlined Friday in Washington, is the work of 'extremists who have taken over Congress.' In a telephone interview, he vowed, 'I'll be damned if I'm going to let extremists take over the National Governors' Association.'"


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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. The WaPO is lying if
they're saying that this refutes Gephardt's charge that Dean agreed with Newt's Medicare cuts. The quote you posted says NOTHING about MEDICARE. It refers to WELFARE, not MEDICARE.

Let's see you come up with a Dean quote and link about MEDICARE from 1995
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. How many times do we have to point out that this quote is about WELFARE
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 11:51 AM by revcarol
"REFORM," NOT Medicare reform,HUH?

Golly gee, can you by any chance have a program that provides single mothers with financial assistance mixed up with a program that provides for the health needs of our seniors? God forefend.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Cant provide Direct link but Dean said:
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 12:34 PM by Nicholas_J
In 1995, Dean agreed with Republican plans to cut Medicare by $270 billion

On May 17, 1995, one day before the Republican Congress voted to cut Medicare by $270 billion, Howard Dean delivered a speech praising the cuts.

"He applauded the efforts of Senate Budget Committee chairman Pete Domenici, R-Nev., who presented his own balanced budget plan last week... Dean also said he could defend Domenici's approach to reducing Medicare costs. He said he supported more managed care for Medicare recipients and requiring some Medicare recipients to pay a greater share of the cost of their medical services…
"'I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent, or less if possible,' Dean said."

The cuts Dean described - reducing the rate of growth to 7 percent - was exactly what Newt Gingrich and the Republican revolutionaries proposed. The Dallas Morning News noted that cutting Medicare's growth from 10 to 7 percent would cut $282 billion from Medicare: "Under the House and Senate plans, the annual rate of growth of Medicare spending would be cut from 10 percent to 7 percent... The Republicans say these changes would trim as much as $ 282 billion from Medicare.

Source: Montpelier Times-Argus, 5/18/95; Dallas Morning News, 5/15/95

http://www.deanfacts.com/plugin/template/gephardt/Dean+on+Medicare/*


Now hows 'bout Social Security:

Dean said we need to cut Social Security to balance the budget.

"The Governor complains...that while federal spending restraint is clearly needed, it is unfair to place Social Security, Medicare, and defense spending off the table when it comes time for budget cuts."

"I also think that we ought to put Social Security back on the table and defense. If you take defense and Social Security off the table, what you've essentially said, 'We're not going to cut any of the controversial things at the federal level, despite our rhetoric about being courageous in a new day in the American Congress, we're just going to let the governors do all the cutting.' We'll do the cutting, but they got to do some cutting here, too."

"My problem is this. There have been a lot of statements up on Capitol Hill that say 'We're not going to touch Social Security.' 'We're going not to touch Medicare,' one statement was. 'We're not going to touch veterans' benefits.' 'We're not going to touch defense. We may add to defense.' Well, then you're going to stick all the cuts on the programs, as you well know, that go to the states..."

"We know what's going to happen and we're willing to live with that,' Dean said, referring to lower welfare funding. 'We just would like to see some similar kind of backbone by the new leadership in Congress when it comes to Medicare, when it comes to Social Security and when it comes to defense.' Without Social Security and defense on the table, Dean says, cuts in what's left of the budget would harm states..."

"Dean himself has been hawkish on the federal deficit, but his budget balancing suggestions include two programs virtually off limits for Republicans: defense spending and Social Security."


Source: Vermont Property Owners Report, February/March 1995; Dean on "This Week with David Brinkley," 1/29/95; Dean on CNN's Crossfire, 2/28/95; Montpelier Times-Argus, 1/30/95; Montpelier Times-Argus, 6/1/95

http://www.deanfacts.com/plugin/template/gephardt/Dean+on+Social+Security/*
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
31. Pre poll info
Edited on Tue Sep-30-03 12:11 PM by Nicholas_J
And especially internal polling from edwards show that Denas past is beginning to cut into his lead.

Zogby data from days after Gephardt's statements have Dean losing at least 23 percent of his support in Hew Hampshire after that statement, and that was just a matter of DAYS after the polls.

Cant discredit it, as polls that break down data by age show that Dean is still extrememly weak among those over fifty years old and that in this age group Kerry has a fifty percent lead over Dean.

And that Kerry and Gephardt are going for Denas weakest point.
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SweetZombieJesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
42. Whoop-dee-shit, Dean says something sort of bad about Medicare ten years
ago. Meanwhile, Gephardt was in the Rose Garden posing with The Evil One, all smiles less than a year ago.

Frankly, I care a lot less about Howard Dean's criticism ten years ago than I do about Gephardt SIGNING A BLANK CHECK FOR BUSH'S ILLEGAL, IMMORAL WAR MONTHS AGO.

Fuck Gephardt, and fuck anyone who buys this bullshit, or tries to spin his or any other Dems war vote.
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Good point!
You should have seen me during the debate...when Gephardt challenged Dean's assertion about coming from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party, I was screaming "you're the one who friggin sold out the entire Democratic caucus on the Iraq war!" A few people knocked on my door to see if I was alright...I forget that the walls here are so thin and I can't scream at the TV the way I do at home!

One more bat to go!
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im4edwards Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. you do realize that old people vote, right ? nearly all of them.
And you further realize that they get antsy when the wrong words regarding Medicare start coming out about polititians.

And as if that were not enough, they would still care if Dean said it when he has a teenager.

They may not like the war but they live and die on their Medicare coverage. Literally live and die.

And there are lots of old people, ones that have been voting Dem for decades.

Whoop-dee-feces. (Not supposed to use profanity anymore.)
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. This doesn't address the issue
It attacks the messenger. So you hate Gep. So What?

What was Dean's position on Medicare in the mid-90's?

Much closer to Gingrich than the to the "Washington Insiders".
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SweetZombieJesus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. It's not the 90s now, is it?
It's 2003, and in 2003, I'm perfectly happy with his Medicare plan.

And it addressed the issue just fine: Gephardt desperately wanted something to slime Dean with, so he had to go back an entire decade to find a criticism of the way Medicare was administered, and spin it as making Dean "in league" with Gingrich. It's completely dishonest, and frankly, a weak attack.

This isn't a real issue.
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im4edwards Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
45. I'd have to say that his recent comments on this don't address it well
EDWARDS SUPPORTER - IF YOU SAY YOU'RE A DEM ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME

I appreciate is when he goes on to describe what actions he took as governor of Vermont relative to healthcare and its nice that most children are covered in some way. However Medicare is largely about oldsters and it still doesn't explain why he thought it as he said way back when nor does it speak to specifically to whats changed for him to have a change of heart. (I don't object to changes of heart where there is cause for re-evaluation.)

I can understand that he is touchy about the Gingrich association but he said nothing that I heard (I'm limited to debate coverage and the odd transcript on the internet) that explains why the claim is invalid. And just saying that you have done more for healthcare than Gephardt doesn't cut it. Its great if its true but it doesn't explain anything.

I'm pretty sure that there is a coherant explination for all this, I just want to hear it without the steam coming out of his ears and such.

Perhaps he has addressed it and one of you could point me and anyone else up in the air over this to it. Thanks in advance.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Dean told Charlie Rose plan was to pattern his Universal HC ...
... by expanding Medicaid. Strange how it's one way one time and another thing another time and another way when he's selling it to the people. I'm sure all his supporters know all that, though.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
64. Are the others stopping the cuts made lately, cancer drugs, doctor pay...?
I have not seen any of them saying anything about the drastic cuts being made to Medicare as we speak. They are permitting the administration to cut payments to doctors, they are stopping some of the cancer drug availibility because of cost, and I have not heard a single candidate say they are trying to stop it.

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