The Pardon Issue

[berni_mccoy]

Let's say there are several admin officials involved and indicted in PlameGate.

What are the ramifications of Bush pardoning everyone involved in the case?

My instincts tell me that nobody will resign and Bush will pardon everyone and nobody will be held accountable, no consequences paid. But I'd like to be wrong. Help me out here.

[wtbymark]

1. If chimpy is indicted....

His power to pardon should be revoked

[berni_mccoy]

3. He can't be indicted unfortunately

And he can pardon before anyone is official charged.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

8. I don't think the question about whether a sitting President can be

indicted has been completely resolved. I know it came up during Clinton. Will have to research this.

But your second point about pardoning them BEFORE they have been charged brings up the case of that governor (Kentucky?) who is under scrutiny for his own cronygate who pardoned a bunch of people before they were charged and has now discovered that because they are clear from charges that they have no 5th Amendment cover and they HAVE to tesitfy against him. Anyway, that's what I heard.

[berni_mccoy]

11. It's already been analyzed...

The results are here:

http://salo.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/2/141445/581

And the final conclusion is here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/sitting_president.htm

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. You're right - it has been analyzed, but not resolved.

I actually read those two excellent links you provided.

The first one was a recap of Jaworski's legal reasoning in Watergate (where he did say, that a President must be indictable at some point, otherwise, in it's most ridiculous example, you could have a serial murderer who enjoyed the ability to kill repeatedly without being stopped.) He seemed to think that the most expedient thing to do would be to name Nixon as an un-indicted co-conspirator to help bring about his speedy impeachment and persuaded the Watergate GJ that that was the best way to proceed.

The second link is very very long and I have not slogged through all of it - but at the end of the day, it was an OPINION that was actually issued by the Clinton Department of Justice which was based on several court opinions covering some different aspects of this. Clinton vs Jones said that a President was not immune from CIVIL proceedings.

This specific question- can a sitting President of the United States be indicted for a criminal offense appears not to have been decided (yet) by the courts. Again, please correct me if I am wrong.

The person who has actually attempted to go the farthest in this arena is Bush himself who got that crackpot Gonzales to write that in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief the President is above the laws of the land. So, I guess we just sit back and wait for Bush to suspend the Constitution and all laws as they pertain to him because he is Commander-in-Chief in this ongoing War against Terra.

[berni_mccoy]

17. I agree, the true test would be...

To indict the president and see what happens.

Here's my prediction:

It goes before the supreme court;
Supreme Court rules that he must be impeached first.

[murielm99]

12. Poppa Bush pardoned people being investigated in

Iran/Contra before they were charged.

[mod mom]

9. Couldn't someone bring state charges and then they couldn't be pardoned?

Find a blue state, certainly they can enough find enough dirt on these crooks, especially if they are found guilty and go after them there.

[berni_mccoy]

13. That's one way to do it...

Would need to be very creative though.

[RagingInMiami]

2. And life will go on as if nothing had happened

That would truly suck.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

4. I think I read somewhere that you couldn't pardon espionage. nt

[murielm99]

5. Is it because espionage is treason, and treason cannot

be pardoned?

I don't know if that is true, but I can hope.

[berni_mccoy]

7. Even treason can be pardoned...

The only thing that can not be pardoned is impeachment.

[berni_mccoy]

6. The only thing that can not be pardoned is an impeachment.

Even treason can be pardoned... for example, Lincoln effectively pardoned all the confederate soldiers after the civil war for any crimes against the union that would come from their military service to the confederacy.

[H2O Man]

10. It's possible.

I think the White House will attempt to use "national security" as the tool for perception management. The tone of yesterday's speech indicated to me that Bush is willing to pull out all the stops to inflict his "vision" on the world. Is it likely that he will view Fitzgerald and McNulty's works as part of the American justice system? Or will he, in his strange little reality, define their works as part of an "enemy" force?

[haroldgiowa]

14. Blanket Pardon

I would guess that the end of this administration a blanket pardon for all those involved in the crimes committed against us will be given. When the next administration comes in, they will find many snakes in the woodpile.

[H2O Man]

15. Could be.

The thing about pardons is that they would increase the chances of the House (and perhaps Senate) beginning a serious investigation of the administration's actions in the Plame/neocon-AIPAC/document forgeries case(s). Now, one could say that blanket pardons would prevent any investigation from being of value. I would respectfully disagree. The role of Dick Cheney, and perhaps to a lesser degree his assistant George, would become a likely focus.

Also, many people on DU are convinced the make-up of the congress would prevent a serious investigation, much less consequences. I disagree, and would use Tom Delay as an example of how quickly many republicans will abandon supporting one of their own, if they sense they will benefit from distancing themselves from someone who is "caught."